Topic: Doesn't matter who you vote for as long as it's for the right reasons!

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Better get rid of Progress and Labour First then.

What would you say is the point of the Labour Party?

[bornandbRED]

Kuenssberg makes my skin crawl… she was trying really hard to come across as genuine and probing but you can tell from a mile off it’s all an act. Transparent as fuck. An utterly odd interview overall.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

HuffPost UK understands that letters of “auto-exclusion”, informing members they have effectively expelled themselves by being members of any of the groups, will be sent by the end of this week.

Without wanting to get into the same old arguments about the rights and wrongs of these groups being proscribed, surely the correct 'due process' is to give the members affected the opportunity to leave the groups and remain in the party? The way they are doing this smacks of retrospective rule/law-making, the issues with which Starmer should be familiar as a lawyer.

[Zeb]

“...and I knew incredulous, easily duped sycophants like you wouldn’t do a thing to inform the public of the true nature of events, Laura” being the part he missed out.

BBC's got itself into a rotten situation with 'balance', yeah. I think I have more sympathy for the high wire act BBC has to pull off with its reporting than some. Labour contributed to it just as much as the Tories since 2010 have. Not sure I lay the blame on the BBC as much as those who deliberately manipulate and distort the truth knowing that some of the message will stick just by having it repeated. Cummings' attitude towards those questions reminded me of me being an absolute shit as a kid finding a way to not tell the truth without lying when caught up to no good.

[gaztop08]

Well who would have thought that Johnson's plan consisted of becoming PM, and there was no plan for the next bit.
Pity no fucker watches this sort of thing really.

So what he was lacking was A Cunning Plan 🤣

[Zeb]

Without wanting to get into the same old arguments about the rights and wrongs of these groups being proscribed, surely the correct 'due process' is to give the members affected the opportunity to leave the groups and remain in the party? The way they are doing this smacks of retrospective rule/law-making, the issues with which Starmer should be familiar as a lawyer.

Think there'd be a better argument if the aims of the group had changed over time rather than the group's stated/shared aims and beliefs being very apparent as part of joining them. There's a great deal of shared membership between at least three of them whether Labour members past or present. Going on holiday by mistake is a difficult one to argue.

[Yorkykopite]

A smaller, purer party, we don’t need ‘them’, a party within a party, they don’t belong in the party etc it all sounds very familiar, only usually it’s the very left of the party saying it about the rest.

Well I suppose that anyone who wants boundaries for their party can broadly be accused of being in favour of 'purity'. But it doesn't get us very far, since everyone wants those.

[Studgotelli]

Labour starting to close in on the Tories according to latest Westminster voting intentions survey

[Studgotelli]

Outlier or the start of some movement?




https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1417559489700630541

Whoops already been posted!

[Kashinoda]

He's a really odd character. Listening to him talking about trying to deal with Johnson's incompetence and lunacy over Covid, he comes across as acting in an ultra-logical way, like most normal people would, and in his own way, trying to do the right thing. But then when he talks about Brexit, he gives the impression that he just did it for the hell of it, like some kind of experiment - it doesn't seem like he was ever really ideologically committed to it, but just did it to shake up the existing power structures. It's hard to tell what he actually wants.

That said, although the interview did a good job of exposing his inconsistencies and personality flaws, in a wider sense that's all irrelevant now, since he has no influence over the government. So rather than seeing the interviewer keep showing astonishment at his audacity and delusions of grandeur, I'd rather have heard more detail about how Johnson operates and how he screwed up the Covid response. Cummings' personality is kind of irrelevant now, we need more information on what went on within the government.

I think that's always been quite clear with Cummings, and to be fair to him what he pulled off was fucking impressive. If only there was some sort of counter-Cummings for the other side. 

His tombstone will probably read 'I did it for the lols 🖕'

[Nobby Reserve]

Five Tory MP's found guilty by the Commons Standards Committee of trying to "improperly to influence judicial proceedings" in the case of sex-nonce Tory MP Michael Elphicke, by writing to senior presiding judge Lady Justice Thirlwall and Queen's Bench Division president Dame Victoria Sharp.

https://news.sky.com/story/five-tory-mps-breached-code-of-conduct-by-trying-to-influence-elphicke-sex-assault-trial-committee-rules-12360356

[PaulF]

Sex-nonce. Is there any other type.
Can those five be done for attempting to pervert the course of justice?

[Studgotelli]

https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1417810526629990400?s=21

Squirming here

[Studgotelli]

How long do we see Boris being PM for? Think things may start to unravel soon.

[Circa1892]

How long do we see Boris being PM for? Think things may start to unravel soon.

No chance of a challenge, a super comfortable majority - and even Cummings leaking actual evidence of everything he’s said and done hasn’t remotely cut through. He’s safe as houses.

[killer-heels]

I personally think he’s gone within months of the pandemic being over. Probably on his own terms as well.

Nah, he will want to win one more election and then he will be off.

[Studgotelli]

No chance of a challenge, a super comfortable majority - and even Cummings leaking actual evidence of everything he’s said and done hasn’t remotely cut through. He’s safe as houses.

Do you think there’s any chance of his backbenchers rebelling against him? Especially if he starts pushing through some of these laws being spoken about? And if Labour keep eating into the Tory voting intentions lead?

And I read an interesting article on his personal finances last night and how the PM job isn’t enough to satisfy his lifestyle/hunger for money compared to his billionaire mates. He’s not super cash rich atm but has a lot of investments according to the article and the thought is that he could choose to pivot away from being PM once the vaccine rollout is successful enough?

[Welshred]

One of Starmer's children tested positive this lunchtime, he's gone straight into isolation and following the rules. Should be some good optics for him there but doubt it'll even touch the sides.

[Riquende]

Do you think there’s any chance of his backbenchers rebelling against him?

Brexit coming home to roost might do it for him. There's only so long he can stave off actually implementing the deal he trumpeted from the rooftops. If they end up rowing back parts of it for SPS alignment (the 'click of the fingers' approach to solving NI) then the loons will revolt. As indeed they will if the protocol goes live and threatens the union.

Meanwhile, taking the only other way out is to potentially cause an international incident by tearing up the GFA and purposefully re-introducing the Troubles. You'd think the sensible wing of the Tory party would take an issue with that.

[Dr. Beaker]

Brexit coming home to roost might do it for him. There's only so long he can stave off actually implementing the deal he trumpeted from the rooftops. If they end up rowing back parts of it for SPS alignment (the 'click of the fingers' approach to solving NI) then the loons will revolt. As indeed they will if the protocol goes live and threatens the union.

Meanwhile, taking the only other way out is to potentially cause an international incident by tearing up the GFA and purposefully re-introducing the Troubles. You'd think the sensible wing of the Tory party would take an issue with that.

The sensible wing were sacked by Johnson before the last election.

[lobsterboy]

The sensible wing were sacked by Johnson before the last election.

Its a herculean task he has accomplished really. He has made Teresa May, Jeremy C*nt and co look almost half human.
I think we should show some respect for how low he has taken us.  The Challenger Deep of politics.

[lobsterboy]

One of Starmer's children tested positive this lunchtime, he's gone straight into isolation and following the rules. Should be some good optics for him there but doubt it'll even touch the sides.

It will somehow be spun as negative by the right wing press and Laura K, not to mention all Corbyn's loons. The bloke can't win.

[Dr. Beaker]

Its a herculean task he has accomplished really. He has made Teresa May, Jeremy C*nt and co look almost half human.
I think we should show some respect for how low he has taken us.  The Challenger Deep of politics.

Covid has created a new mask-clad, socially distanced 'normal' that we are all gradually getting used to. Johnson has created a new tory 'normal' that is exclusively populated by swivel-eyed loons yet we seem to have instantly accepted this situation. The old tory party has long gone.

[Yorkykopite]

Covid has created a new mask-clad, socially distanced 'normal' that we are all gradually getting used to. Johnson has created a new tory 'normal' that is exclusively populated by swivel-eyed loons yet we seem to have instantly accepted this situation. The old tory party has long gone.

We'll know for sure if the old Tory party has long gone when the succession happens. It's just about possible that enough Tories will come to their senses and anoint someone from the Conservative mainstream - ie someone who believes in parliamentary democracy, the relevance of facts and the pull of evidence. But they could keep on digging and, as you say, end up with another swivel-eyed loon.

Labour showed that it is possible to pull back from the edge when they elected Keir Starmer. That sent a signal (quite weak as yet, but getting stronger) to the wider electorate that the weird years were over and it was ok to vote Labour again. The Tories are not bound to follow suit.

[TSC]

Labour now opposing vaccine ‘passports’ will probably mean that will be defeated should it go to a commons vote, given ironically the number of Tories likely to oppose same (many for different reasons of course).

[Nobby Reserve]

We'll know for sure if the old Tory party has long gone when the succession happens. It's just about possible that enough Tories will come to their senses and anoint someone from the Conservative mainstream - ie someone who believes in parliamentary democracy, the relevance of facts and the pull of evidence. But they could keep on digging and, as you say, end up with another swivel-eyed loon.

Problem is, they 'cleansed' the party of most of the capable mainstream politicians.

The main pretenders to the Bozo throne will be Gove, Patel, Raaaab and, favourite, Sunak.

Three rabid psychopaths, and one oily, smiling snake.

Outside of this, some like Jeremy C*nt would likely throw his hat in the ring. He'll be considered a moderate, which says everything about how far right the Overton Window has been dragged.

[Nobby Reserve]

Labour now opposing vaccine ‘passports’

FFS.

Still trying to appease the swivel-eyed prick demographic.

(and will still likely fall between two stools)

[TSC]

FFS.

Still trying to appease the swivel-eyed prick demographic.

(and will still likely fall between two stools)

Reasons given as per below

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-pm-faces-backlash-over-vaccine-certification-proposal-as-labour-critique-plans-12360739

[killer-heels]

Reasons given as per below

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-pm-faces-backlash-over-vaccine-certification-proposal-as-labour-critique-plans-12360739

Utter lunacy from Labour. Not practical for vaccine passports but then its of course easily possible to test everyone who want to end up in a club.

[Sangria]

Problem is, they 'cleansed' the party of most of the capable mainstream politicians.

The main pretenders to the Bozo throne will be Gove, Patel, Raaaab and, favourite, Sunak.

Three rabid psychopaths, and one oily, smiling snake.

Outside of this, some like Jeremy C*nt would likely throw his hat in the ring. He'll be considered a moderate, which says everything about how far right the Overton Window has been dragged.

Labour should be highlighting just how batshit the current Tory party is to old Tory moderates, and making them the sane party.

[TepidT2O]

3% pay rise for most NHS workers as per the PRB


Thoughts?

[Gerry Attrick]

3% pay rise for most NHS workers as per the PRB


Thoughts?

As soon as Cummings says something the agenda is swiftly changed. Announcing Johnson’s marriage, now this pay rise…

[Clint Eastwood]

3% pay rise for most NHS workers as per the PRB


Thoughts?

Excluding junior doctors (but including consultants) is a bit of a piss take.

COVID had a significantly bigger burden on junior doctors than consultants.

Nurses deserve a bigger pay rise than 3%.

[TepidT2O]

Excluding junior doctors (but including consultants) is a bit of a piss take.

COVID had a significantly bigger burden on junior doctors than consultants.

Nurses deserve a bigger pay rise than 3%.

I’m mixed I suppose.

I have one sister who has worked on Covid icu sometimes so clearly has taken risks on the front line.  My other sister has been very quiet because they’ve had to turn a lot of her patients away …. Have they both made an epic contribution?  No.

Consultants? Depends what field they work in.  But they’re mostly  just on £100k plus … people who have been on 80% furlough might disagree with it?

Junior doctors?  Well we just cannot get enough doctors, it seems odd to piss off those most likely to leave

And there’s nothing for care workers …..

Might be better to give a one off payment?

Some have said 3% is obscene, some that it’s not enough….  It’s a very very complex issue.

And then there’s other public sector workers too.  How do you contrast those who have job security but have kept the wheels turning with those who have been on 80% furlough (or worse in some cases).

It seems best to go with PRBs, but we know that in other sectors these will just be ignored…

So much of the problem with the nhs right now (on top of all the other issues) is that the staff working with covid are just clapped out.  They are mentally broken….  How can we solve that? How can we ease that for them?  Clapping won’t, and I suspect a 3% pay rise won’t either.

[TSC]

3% has to be seen in context;

Between 2010-2019 public sector pay was subject to pay freezes and caps under the Tory ‘austerity’ ideology.  So a newly qualified nurse in 2020/21 earned 3% less than a newly qualified nurse in 2010 once inflation is factored in.

Scotland has offered 4% backdated to 2020.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/56294009

[TepidT2O]

3% has to be seen in context;

Between 2010-2019 public sector pay was subject to pay freezes and caps under the Tory ‘austerity’ ideology.  So a newly qualified nurse in 2020/21 earned 3% less than a newly qualified nurse in 2010 once inflation is factored in.

Scotland has offered 4% backdated to 2020.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/56294009

But that’s the same for ALL public sector workers…. Not just the NHS.

[TSC]

But that’s the same for ALL public sector workers…. Not just the NHS.

I know.  Tories didn’t single out the NHS, all public sector workers were subject to Tory austerity ideology.  Local Government employees have been offered a 1.5% pay rise this year. 

http://www.local.gov.uk/our-support/leadership-workforce-and-communications/local-government-pay-2021

[Clint Eastwood]

I’m mixed I suppose.

I have one sister who has worked on Covid icu sometimes so clearly has taken risks on the front line.  My other sister has been very quiet because they’ve had to turn a lot of her patients away …. Have they both made an epic contribution?  No.

Consultants? Depends what field they work in.  But they’re mostly  just on £100k plus … people who have been on 80% furlough might disagree with it?

Junior doctors?  Well we just cannot get enough doctors, it seems odd to piss off those most likely to leave

And there’s nothing for care workers …..

Might be better to give a one off payment?

Some have said 3% is obscene, some that it’s not enough….  It’s a very very complex issue.

And then there’s other public sector workers too.  How do you contrast those who have job security but have kept the wheels turning with those who have been on 80% furlough (or worse in some cases).

It seems best to go with PRBs, but we know that in other sectors these will just be ignored…

So much of the problem with the nhs right now (on top of all the other issues) is that the staff working with covid are just clapped out.  They are mentally broken….  How can we solve that? How can we ease that for them?  Clapping won’t, and I suspect a 3% pay rise won’t either.

So I’m of the belief that nurses have deserved a pay rise for a long time, regardless of COVID. They do an incredible job, they are worked to the bone, they’re frequently treated like garbage by patients and ‘seniors’ alike. They’re the first to get blamed if something goes wrong and poorly supported. We also don’t have enough of them - I’m not surprised by this, I don’t know why you’d want to be a nurse in this country.

Some consultants have had a tough ride. ICU consultants, for sure, have had it tough. Dermatology consultants? Nah. Consultant orthopaedic surgeons? Nah.

Junior doctors make up the majority of ‘medical’ work that goes on in hospitals. If patients suddenly get sick during the day, junior doctors deal with it. Overnight, everything is done by junior doctors (outside of A&E and ICU). During the pandemic, they’ve carried the burden.

You could argue whether doctors deserve a pay rise or not, but if the pay rise is reflecting the efforts during the pandemic, it doesn’t sit right with me that a consultant dermatologist, a GP, even a dentist (who have had their hours and workload reduced, if anything), will get a pay rise while an ICU registra or medical registra don’t. Dentists and GPs already have a decent ride with regards to pay/work v life.

[TepidT2O]

I know.  Tories didn’t single out the NHS, all public sector workers were subject to Tory austerity ideology.  Local Government employees have been offered a 1.5% pay rise this year. 

http://www.local.gov.uk/our-support/leadership-workforce-and-communications/local-government-pay-2021

Interesting… all other public sector workers are getting nothing…..
There’s only so long you can give public sector workers shit pay before people don’t want to work in the public sector…

And we’ve had a bloody decade of it.

[TepidT2O]

So I’m of the belief that nurses have deserved a pay rise for a long time, regardless of COVID. They do an incredible job, they are worked to the bone, they’re frequently treated like garbage by patients and ‘seniors’ alike. They’re the first to get blamed if something goes wrong and poorly supported. We also don’t have enough of them - I’m not surprised by this, I don’t know why you’d want to be a nurse in this country.

Some consultants have had a tough ride. ICU consultants, for sure, have had it tough. Dermatology consultants? Nah. Consultant orthopaedic surgeons? Nah.

Junior doctors make up the majority of ‘medical’ work that goes on in hospitals. If patients suddenly get sick during the day, junior doctors deal with it. Overnight, everything is done by junior doctors (outside of A&E and ICU). During the pandemic, they’ve carried the burden.

You could argue whether doctors deserve a pay rise or not, but if the pay rise is reflecting the efforts during the pandemic, it doesn’t sit right with me that a consultant dermatologist, a GP, even a dentist (who have had their hours and workload reduced, if anything), will get a pay rise while an ICU registra or medical registra don’t. Dentists and GPs already have a decent ride with regards to pay/work v life.

Agree….

But I suppose getting any level of nuance is almost impossible with as big a thing as the nhs