Poll

Tory Christmas Party

Nothing like a good old knees up!
They should apologise and come clean
Johnson should resign
The front bench should resign
The entire party should resign
The entire party should be put in an Elon Musk rocket and fired off to jupiter with 2 packets of hula hoops and a pot noodle
I LOVE cheese!

Author Topic: Doesn't matter who you vote for as long as it's for the right reasons!  (Read 1179913 times)

Offline filopastry

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Your sounding an awful lot like the people you rightfully criticise most of the time… the only word missing is purity!

Membership may not translate into electoral success, but having some money probably helps. We can’t rely on wealthy donors, I suspect the unions won’t be so generous now Corbyn’s not in charge, and the Tories are constantly trying to change donation rules in their favour/Labours disadvantage so membership is absolutely key.

Depends on which union, a lot of the major unions are happy enough with Starmer's positioning as opposed to Corbyn's, Unite leadership contest will be massive of course, if Coyne wins there, then the union environment looks pretty friendly for Starmer.

Financially the party just needs to get the legal actions behind them, and can go forward from there.

Offline Snail

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A smaller party (in terms of membership) wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing for Labour. It's obviously not good financially, but most of those who've left in the last two years are probably out of sympathy with Starmer and the mainstream traditions of British social democracy. As an organised faction inside the party they could do some real damage to the leader. 

Some of those who've left will also be the people who brought the party into disrepute with the general public. It's much better that they spout off under another party's banner than continue to sully the reputation of the Labour party - especially among the more traditional working-class supporters.

I suspect there's also no evidence that massive individual memberships necessarily translate into majorities at Westminster or even local government level.

Better get rid of Progress and Labour First then.

Offline TSC

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none of the shit sticks to this bumbling fool though, I mean the BBC have seen the whatsapp messages Cummings is talking about there but none of this will stick to this damn fool.

Cummings full interview on bbc2 at 7 tonight for anyone interested.

Offline filopastry

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Quote
Report into Liverpool Labour delivered to NEC acknowledges “bullying”, “misogyny” and a “toxic culture” locally
It recommends Labour nationally takes over candidate selection processes for elections in Liverpool until June 2026

Offline Zeb

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The ruling National Executive Committee (NEC) decided on Tuesday to proscribe ‘Resist’ and ‘Labour Against the Witchhunt’, factions which both claim anti-Semitism allegations have been politically motivated.

‘Labour In Exile’, which actively welcomes expelled or suspended members, was banned. Another group, ‘Socialist Appeal’, which describes itself as Marxist, was also proscribed.

HuffPost UK understands that letters of “auto-exclusion”, informing members they have effectively expelled themselves by being members of any of the groups, will be sent by the end of this week.

The NEC approved the proscription with a big majority, insiders said.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/keir-starmer-expels-far-left-jeremy-corbyn-supporters-from-labour_uk_60f6ffbfe4b0158a5eda82d7?w8o

In happier news, they can still push their conspiracy theories about Starmer taking bribes, Jo Cox funding jihadis, and all that fun stuff, just from outside the party. And without anyone needing to think about how it would look to sue them for defamation. Paul Waugh reckons the majority on the NEC was 2:1 in favour of doing this. Sadly there'll be more to come too if reporting is correct that the NEC have agreed they will need to sign off on further recommendations.
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline TepidT2O

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Should have done this a year ago…
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline Sangria

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https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/keir-starmer-expels-far-left-jeremy-corbyn-supporters-from-labour_uk_60f6ffbfe4b0158a5eda82d7?w8o

In happier news, they can still push their conspiracy theories about Starmer taking bribes, Jo Cox funding jihadis, and all that fun stuff, just from outside the party. And without anyone needing to think about how it would look to sue them for defamation. Paul Waugh reckons the majority on the NEC was 2:1 in favour of doing this. Sadly there'll be more to come too if reporting is correct that the NEC have agreed they will need to sign off on further recommendations.

Do we know how each member voted?

Did some research and here's the answer.

https://twitter.com/LauraPidcock/status/1417210157734498310
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Guz-kop

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Cummings full interview on bbc2 at 7 tonight for anyone interested.

He's an absolutely odious little snake. Smirking his way through the "interview" conducted by his personal media PA Laura Kunssberg. Fucking sickening this guy had so much power over this country and now trying to make himself out to be the good guy
It's wonderful, it's marvellous, it's 3-3

Offline Welshred

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Fucking hell. Imagine defending the right of organisations that have problems with anti-semitism to stay within the party. Pidcock needs to be ejected herself!

Offline cormorant

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For all that Cummings is absolutely out for no-one but himself, he's made Kuenssberg look like a really poor journalist in this interview. She's been chasing her tail all along and can't nail him on anything. Piss poor that he comes out the 'winner'.
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Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Fucking hell. Imagine defending the right of organisations that have problems with anti-semitism to stay within the party. Pidcock needs to be ejected herself!
Is Pidcock a member of any of those proscribed groups? :)
would rather have a wank wearing a barb wire glove
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Offline Guz-kop

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For all that Cummings is absolutely out for no-one but himself, he's made Kuenssberg look like a really poor journalist in this interview. She's been chasing her tail all along and can't nail him on anything. Piss poor that he comes out the 'winner'.

As is usually the case in these situations, the interviewee is in control, not the interviewer. She's just interested in getting her name to a scoop. Everything he's leaked in the last year has come through her. Where was she holding him or any of them to account during the referendum or even in the last 15 months?
It's wonderful, it's marvellous, it's 3-3

Offline Zeb

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Do we know how each member voted?

Did some research and here's the answer.

https://twitter.com/LauraPidcock/status/1417210157734498310


Nine of them felt membership of a group which actively campaigned for Galloway in Batley and Spen is not an auto-exclusion. Sure Anne Black and Alice Perry will have thoughts, and they're not Labour First or Progress, but mainstream of the soft left.

----

Going to catch up with Cummings telling us all about how he personally discovered immigration can be used as a real neat wedge issue. And maybe even how telling the truth matters little if you've already established you lie for shits, giggles, and advantage at every opportunity beforehand.
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And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline reddebs

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As is usually the case in these situations, the interviewee is in control, not the interviewer. She's just interested in getting her name to a scoop. Everything he's leaked in the last year has come through her. Where was she holding him or any of them to account during the referendum or even in the last 15 months?

Exactly what I've just said to hubby mate.

Not once has any journalist etc gone after any of them for the lies they've been pushing for the last 6 or 7yrs but allowed them to get away with murder.

Offline cormorant

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As is usually the case in these situations, the interviewee is in control, not the interviewer. She's just interested in getting her name to a scoop. Everything he's leaked in the last year has come through her. Where was she holding him or any of them to account during the referendum or even in the last 15 months?

Take your point.

Does my head in though, with all the micro management of this type of interview, to read the body language and she was giving it the all nods, eyebrows raised, etc and all we get is her getting him on camera and batting her questions back pretty easily.

Suppose what I am trying to say is that she presents herself as a hard hitting journalist when she is far from that. Keep the cosy interviews coming and the BBC salary drips into the bank account.
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Offline Guz-kop

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Yup absolutely. They did discuss some tough topics but he's a narcissist. He blows with thr wind and banks on his anti Johnson standpoint getting more attention than his own role in thr very things he's vriticising. BBC think they're getting a massive hard hitting interview when really they're just his mouthpiece and a platform for the start of his return to politics. Real sad state of politics in this country
It's wonderful, it's marvellous, it's 3-3

Offline Libertine

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Offline TepidT2O

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Dominic Cummings is quite something…

Criticising the current Mrs Johnson for her influence ignores that she is actually a member of the Conservative party (and even before was banging the effete c*nt, very influential)…

Whereas Cummings is just a man who thinks he knows better…..

He’s hardly coming from a position of strength his he?
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline TSC

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Beyond the whole dysfunctional mess that is government and the administration that Cummings was a central part of, I don’t know if Cummings realised how he contradicted himself re Brexit.

In one sentence (paraphrasing) he states it was/is madness to think anyone could say ‘Brexit’ was a good thing.  Next sentence ‘it was the right thing for the country’.  The fact he’s some sort of narcissist loon doesn’t detract from the incompetence he led to power that remains in place.

Offline Dr. Beaker

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Well who would have thought that Johnson's plan consisted of becoming PM, and there was no plan for the next bit.
Pity no fucker watches this sort of thing really.
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Offline Zeb

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Outlier or the start of some movement?

Probably outlier but polling generally has been moving that way again for a while. Gap is more like five or six points at the moment looking across all polling. May coincide with fall in trust in government's handling of pandemic and views of Johnson. Impressions of Starmer not being as positive as they were may be reducing effect too.
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Your sounding an awful lot like the people you rightfully criticise most of the time… the only word missing is purity!

Membership may not translate into electoral success, but having some money probably helps. 

"Probably"! It certainly helps. As does having a large membership, which I also advocate. I'm simply saying that Labour can afford to lose those fair-weather members who joined the party because they sensed in Corbyn a chance to push their own esoteric, non-Labour, agendas.   Labour should remain a 'broad church' and probably doesn't need to return to the intolerant Clement Attlee years when it drew up its 'Proscribed List' of left-wing organisations that were outlawed*. But equally it shouldn't open its doors to all and sundry, otherwise (for example) the left-wing anti-semites and pro-Cuban crowd comes streaming in. Are these minor restrictions a call for "purity"? I don't think so.

Therefore....I have no idea about what you mean when you say I'm sounding like the people I "rightfully criticise".

*Its most successful years of course, which does give some pause for thought.
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Fucking hell. Imagine defending the right of organisations that have problems with anti-semitism to stay within the party. Pidcock needs to be ejected herself!

The MP who somehow lost Durham after 90 years of being Labour! (Although she was lovely at the Durham Miners' Gala the year before).
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Offline Rob Dylan

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Dominic Cummings is quite something…

Criticising the current Mrs Johnson for her influence ignores that she is actually a member of the Conservative party (and even before was banging the effete c*nt, very influential)…

Whereas Cummings is just a man who thinks he knows better…..

He’s hardly coming from a position of strength his he?

But to be fair he was actually employed by the govt to work alongside the PM at a very high level, she wasn't - she was just an average member of the party, she shouldn't have any more influence than the rest of them - and wouldn't if she wasn't in a relationship with him.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2021, 09:28:19 pm by Rob Dylan »

Offline TepidT2O

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But to be fair he was actually employed by the govt to work alongside the PM at a very high level, she wasn't - she was just an average member of the party like all the others, she shouldn't have any more influence than the rest of them.
Not that I have any time for either of them, but she wasn’t just an average member.  She was a very very  influential member before letting herself be taken by Johnson.

What was Cummings? Someone who got the job on the back of his own ego? A man who tried to remove the prime minister who was appointed as part of the democratic process

Now personally, I’d like all of them to disappear up their own arseholes… but his account is just bollocks
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline Red Beret

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Quote
    Report into Liverpool Labour delivered to NEC acknowledges “bullying”, “misogyny” and a “toxic culture” locally
    It recommends Labour nationally takes over candidate selection processes for elections in Liverpool until June 2026


It's not like they didn't know this kind of shit was happening.  Most people have described council meetings in Liverpool as a circus, going back decades.
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Offline Rob Dylan

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Not that I have any time for either of them, but she wasn’t just an average member.  She was a very very  influential member before letting herself be taken by Johnson.

What was Cummings? Someone who got the job on the back of his own ego? A man who tried to remove the prime minister who was appointed as part of the democratic process

Now personally, I’d like all of them to disappear up their own arseholes… but his account is just bollocks

Well I don't know how influential she was previously but I'm pretty sure she didn't have much influence on Theresa May when she was PM, she only got this level of influence through being in a relationship with the current PM. Cummings is entitled to think he should have more influence than her given that he was actually employed by the PM as his senior advisor - it was his actual job. And if she did scupper the appointment of the PM's spokesperson just to get one of her friends the job, then he's right to be angry about it.

Offline TepidT2O

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Well I don't know how influential she was previously but I'm pretty sure she didn't have much influence on Theresa May when she was PM, she only got this level of influence through being in a relationship with the current PM. Cummings is entitled to think he should have more influence than her given that he was actually employed by the PM as his senior advisor - it was his actual job. And if she did scupper the appointment of the PM's spokesperson just to get one of her friends the job, then he's right to be angry about it.
I think he’s a total hypocrite. He wanted people that would enact Brexit…

He was just as conflicted.   This isn’t about one being more or less objectionable than the other, it’s about the brass neck of Cummings and his total lack self awareness.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline Sangria

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I think he’s a total hypocrite. He wanted people that would enact Brexit…

He was just as conflicted.   This isn’t about one being more or less objectionable than the other, it’s about the brass neck of Cummings and his total lack self awareness.

I don't mind if he has zero self awareness, as long as he manages to damage the Johnson brand.
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http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline TepidT2O

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I don't mind if he has zero self awareness, as long as he manages to damage the Johnson brand.
Oh goodness I agree.

But he’s doing no damage, because he’s about as popular as an anal fistula. 
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline Zeb

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"The party system throws unqualified people up. Which is why I pushed someone absolutely unsuited to running the country into Downing Street because I thought he was stupid enough to just agree to everything me and my mates wanted."

Where do you even start with that, other than binning all of them off? Thought it was a clever interview to be fair to Laura Kuenssberg. Cummings can't resist bragging and she led him to every key point without him realisng it was also to his own expense.
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline TepidT2O

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"The party system throws unqualified people up. Which is why I pushed someone absolutely unsuited to running the country into Downing Street because I thought he was stupid enough to just agree to everything me and my mates wanted."

Where do you even start with that, other than binning all of them off? Thought it was a clever interview to be fair to Laura Kuenssberg. Cummings can't resist bragging and she led him to every key point without him realisng it was also to his own expense.
He’s not really selling himself as an honourable human being is he?
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline Rob Dylan

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I think he’s a total hypocrite. He wanted people that would enact Brexit…

He was just as conflicted.   This isn’t about one being more or less objectionable than the other, it’s about the brass neck of Cummings and his total lack self awareness.

He's a deeply flawed person obviously, but on this specific issue - assuming that it did play out the way he said - he is right, in that it's totally wrong for a highly qualified person going through the proper channels to be denied a job because the PM's girlfriend wants the job given to one of her mates. And more generally, he's right to expect that he would have more influence on the PM than she would, because it was his actual job and she was only able to influence him because they were in a relationship. And that's still true even if he's a hypocritical sociopath with delusions of grandeur.

Offline Zeb

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He’s not really selling himself as an honourable human being is he?

Gove's going to be anonymous for years more to come, so there are silver linings.
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline Rob Dylan

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He's a really odd character. Listening to him talking about trying to deal with Johnson's incompetence and lunacy over Covid, he comes across as acting in an ultra-logical way, like most normal people would, and in his own way, trying to do the right thing. But then when he talks about Brexit, he gives the impression that he just did it for the hell of it, like some kind of experiment - it doesn't seem like he was ever really ideologically committed to it, but just did it to shake up the existing power structures. It's hard to tell what he actually wants.

That said, although the interview did a good job of exposing his inconsistencies and personality flaws, in a wider sense that's all irrelevant now, since he has no influence over the government. So rather than seeing the interviewer keep showing astonishment at his audacity and delusions of grandeur, I'd rather have heard more detail about how Johnson operates and how he screwed up the Covid response. Cummings' personality is kind of irrelevant now, we need more information on what went on within the government.

Offline TSC

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He’s not really selling himself as an honourable human being is he?

He hasn’t from the outset to be fair.  Brexit fiasco and then being put in such a position of power for enabling Brexit and Johnson’s election outcome was ridiculous for an unelected adviser.  But then on the other side of the coin none of Johnson’s cabal would be classed as honourable either.

Rats in a sack will scrap I guess.

Offline Nobby Reserve

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Oh goodness I agree.

But he’s doing no damage, because he’s about as popular as an anal fistula.


If he wanted to skewer Bozo, he could come clean about the motivations of the people who drove and funded the whole campaign to leave the EU (from before the Referendum was even announced)
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Offline west_london_red

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"Probably"! It certainly helps. As does having a large membership, which I also advocate. I'm simply saying that Labour can afford to lose those fair-weather members who joined the party because they sensed in Corbyn a chance to push their own esoteric, non-Labour, agendas.   Labour should remain a 'broad church' and probably doesn't need to return to the intolerant Clement Attlee years when it drew up its 'Proscribed List' of left-wing organisations that were outlawed*. But equally it shouldn't open its doors to all and sundry, otherwise (for example) the left-wing anti-semites and pro-Cuban crowd comes streaming in. Are these minor restrictions a call for "purity"? I don't think so.

Therefore....I have no idea about what you mean when you say I'm sounding like the people I "rightfully criticise".

*Its most successful years of course, which does give some pause for thought.

A smaller, purer party, we don’t need ‘them’, a party within a party, they don’t belong in the party etc it all sounds very familiar, only usually it’s the very left of the party saying it about the rest.
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Offline west_london_red

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He hasn’t from the outset to be fair.  Brexit fiasco and then being put in such a position of power for enabling Brexit and Johnson’s election outcome was ridiculous for an unelected adviser.  But then on the other side of the coin none of Johnson’s cabal would be classed as honourable either.

Rats in a sack will scrap I guess.

It’s like the boy who cried wolf. He lead a team of liars during the referendum, lied and continues to lie about the Barnard Castle visit, so now either people don’t believe him or simply don’t care. I don’t think there’s anything he can say about Johnson that will have any material impact on him, and if there is he would probably end up taking himself down with Johnson so just tells us what we already know or can very easily guess.
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Offline Father Ted

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"The party system throws unqualified people up. Which is why I pushed someone absolutely unsuited to running the country into Downing Street because I thought he was stupid enough to just agree to everything me and my mates wanted."

“...and I knew incredulous, easily duped sycophants like you wouldn’t do a thing to inform the public of the true nature of events, Laura” being the part he missed out.

It’s almost funny in a grim, depressing way seeing the PM many journo’s unquestioningly reported on as the very reincarnation of Churchill being revealed to all as an utterly incompetent clown who everyone knew was going to be a fucking disaster and whose own advisors had no respect for whatsoever & wanted to boot out at the earliest opportunity. Or it would be if it wasn’t so tragic and the timing of Westminster‘s most prestigious Wurzel Gummidge impersonator taking control hadn’t coincided disastrously with a national emergency.

Because Cummings himself is so utterly lacking in charm or likeability it might work out in Bozo’s favour in a weird way as the voters who regard him as a likeable buffoon (rather than a nasty piece of work hiding behind a well crafted buffoon image) end up feeling sorry for him.