Topic: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General

[zero zero]

Do they honestly think it's going to improve?

There's plenty of room for improvement, as I pointed out above. I believe that the points from Wolves (which I agree with) were the opening salvo in a negotiation for better standards and accountability.

It's a sunk cost fallacy at this point until PGMOL is destroyed in its current form.

Whereas this is fucking realistic.

They should try reading the room and factor in the fans for once.

Which fans? As this thread has demonstrated over the last few pages there's no consensus amongst the fans.

[JRed]

Do they honestly think it's going to improve? It's a sunk cost fallacy at this point until PGMOL is destroyed in its current form.

They should try reading the room and factor in the fans for once.

It’s like you’re arguing for both sides. You’re saying get rid of VAR and let the refs do their job, then saying the refs are shit.
WTF do you think these refs are going to do when they know none of their decisions will be looked at? They already have the balls to screw us over now, knowing that VAR will have to look at it.

I get the point that we can celebrate goals straight away again, and that’s a valid point. But getting rid of VAR now would unleash the officials rage at being questioned and it would be carnage.

Read the room? What fucking room are you in?

[spider-neil]

VAR and the ref association should be completely different entities. Also, VAR should be on a contract basis so if company with the contract fucks up the contract can be given to someone else.

[vblfc]

They have. They just understand it’s not the system at fault but the people using it.

I would go one step deeper/farther on that. It’s actually the accountability and integrity model around those using it. The whole VAR protocol has been abused by PGMOL into to an accountability avoidance model where the VAR referees must be seen to support the onfield decisions and vice versa.
Part of accountability and integrity is being able to say when you made a mistake (when you are wrong, say you are wrong). Currently the refs and VAR constantly try to use the clear and obvious nonsense to give decision in a manner they think will maintain an image of their control. Then, when they clearly get it wrong, they are all forced into a double down, gaslit spin, which constantly erodes accountability and integrity.
Much better to have a proper accountability gap between onfield ref and VAR to enable an overturn of decisions in fast/real time. On field ref can still make the final call.  It is ok for VAR and ref to disagree and to overturn decisions based on video evidence.
The current model just shines a light on their errors and erodes everyones integrity. It would be quite simple to fix a lot of it.

[Fromola]

It’s like you’re arguing for both sides. You’re saying get rid of VAR and let the refs do their job, then saying the refs are shit.

The worse the refs are then the worse the VAR will be with those same refs using it. Nothing is going to change next season. Webb will streamline it which will not change any of the real issues with it.

PGMOL is the issue and the way its run and the shit referees, but that only makes VAR all the more unusable.

WTF do you think these refs are going to do when they know none of their decisions will be looked at? They already have the balls to screw us over now, knowing that VAR will have to look at it.

We've been as screwed over by VAR as we have with with the refs on the pitch and when the ref has screwed us, VAR has mostly failed to overturn it.

I hate the fact you can't celebrate goals now (honestly what is the point of football without that?), but at least if you had the trade off with decisions like Doku/Odegaard/other blatant pens/Mac Allister sending off, Van Dijk sending off were actually overturned - but they aren't. And you get several other bad ones from VAR on top (league cup final, Burnley away, Jones red card at Spurs stitch up, several dreadful VAR decisions against us in Europa League).

[Crosby Nick]

Kavanagh gets a chance to say goodbye to Jurgen on Sunday. They also saved the best for last with Coote on VAR.

They say these things even themselves out…Wolves have been repeatedly fucked over by VAR this season too so Sunday could be a bit mad.

[BoRed]

They say these things even themselves out…Wolves have been repeatedly fucked over by VAR this season too so Sunday could be a bit mad.

Given what they've done to us this season, I can't see it evening out for both teams.

The game is a dead rubber, though, so the only meaningful thing they can do is hand out a load of red cards to ensure both teams have players suspended at the start of next season.

[capt k]

Not a chance.

With VAR binned, the match officials will come under more scrutiny to get their calls correctly. If they don't the media aren't going away. They'll be analyzing everything and pointing out the errors.

Im not sure how you came to this conclusion. The media have been absolutley complicit in the shit storm we have witnessed all year.. from the Diaz no goal  media{pundit}reaction mid game to the orchestrated silencing of any questions 2 hours later.. the media{in general} are TOLD what to say. none of these pricks are going to have their noses removed from the money trough, so they keep their head down.. you know the worlds on its head when the likes of Goldberg broach the subject, yet Spit and Rat boy say fuck all

[red1977]

The worse the refs are then the worse the VAR will be with those same refs using it. Nothing is going to change next season. Webb will streamline it which will not change any of the real issues with it.

PGMOL is the issue and the way its run and the shit referees, but that only makes VAR all the more unusable.

We've been as screwed over by VAR as we have with with the refs on the pitch and when the ref has screwed us, VAR has mostly failed to overturn it.

I hate the fact you can't celebrate goals now (honestly what is the point of football without that?), but at least if you had the trade off with decisions like Doku/Odegaard/other blatant pens/Mac Allister sending off, Van Dijk sending off were actually overturned - but they aren't. And you get several other bad ones from VAR on top (league cup final, Burnley away, Jones red card at Spurs stitch up, several dreadful VAR decisions against us in Europa League).

Some people didnt think Docu's high boot was a penalty (It was). But not having rules black and white causes divide. For example if a boot touches a chest, deliberate or not its a foul. No divide then. But instead we get, it's a coming together, Docu is looking at the ball and doesn't see MacAlister and on and on. The rules allow subjectivity. VAR is just another look, the subjectivity remains. Are rules really rules if no one can agree on what said rule is?

[Fromola]

Im not sure how you came to this conclusion. The media have been absolutley complicit in the shit storm we have witnessed all year.. from the Diaz no goal  media{pundit}reaction mid game to the orchestrated silencing of any questions 2 hours later.. the media{in general} are TOLD what to say. none of these pricks are going to have their noses removed from the money trough, so they keep their head down.. you know the worlds on its head when the likes of Goldberg broach the subject, yet Spit and Rat boy say fuck all

They just parrot whatever the PL/Sky/PGMOL want them to. Silent on this but went nuclear over ESL (for their paymasters) and Neville is never usually short of an opinion.

Some people didnt think Docu's high boot was a penalty (It was). But not having rules black and white causes divide. For example if a boot touches a chest, deliberate or not its a foul. No divide then. But instead we get, it's a coming together, Docu is looking at the ball and doesn't see MacAlister and on and on. The rules allow subjectivity. VAR is just another look, the subjectivity remains. Are rules really rules if no one can agree on what said rule is?

VAR hides behind subjectivity to justify decisions and refs operating it can therefore manipulate it. It shouldn't be used for subjective decisions anyway but while pens are within its remit, Doku is a clear pen.

[Schmidt]

VAR and the ref association should be completely different entities. Also, VAR should be on a contract basis so if company with the contract fucks up the contract can be given to someone else.

IMO there should be three bodies.

Oversight - Not comprised of current/ex officials. They should be responsible for adjusting the rules as required, judging the performances of the groups below them and generally managing everything related to rule enforcement. This group tells the separate VAR/official groups how to execute rules, rather than the VAR's and officials working together.

VAR - A different group with different training for a different skillset. If they see a mistake they tell the referee to review it on the monitor, or just overturn it if it's egregious enough. They report directly to the oversight group. If a referee makes a mistake and the VAR doesn't catch it, the VAR takes the blame. If the VAR recommends the referee review it and the referee sticks with the original mistake, the referee takes the blame.

Officials - Their only roles are referee, linesman and 4th official. They're judged both on the frequency that VAR needs to overrule them and the frequency with which they incorrectly stick with their original decisions. Frequent enough mistakes lead to increasing punishments, such as demotion from the big games, demotion to the EFL and just outright being fired.

Additionally, all audio between officials should be released after every round of fixtures and all per-match performance reviews should be public. Officials should not be allowed to officiate matches for other countries/organisations on the side, and officials shouldn't get to officiate local teams even if they don't claim to support them.

[capt k]

They just parrot whatever the PL/Sky/PGMOL want them to. Silent on this but went nuclear over ESL (for their paymasters) and Neville is never usually short of an opinion.

VAR hides behind subjectivity to justify decisions and refs operating it can therefore manipulate it. It shouldn't be used for subjective decisions anyway but while pens are within its remit, Doku is a clear pen.

oh i know, hence me mentioning their snouts in the trough., what i cant get my head around is the fact var can see an obvious offence, but its not in their remit to action on it.. i personally like the "idea" of VAR, but i hate the way its implemented.. its the same as watching any corrupt organisation, they will twist and turn the facts so their work mate isnt called out for obvious misuse/abuse of power

[red1977]

This was disgusting.

There needs to be a full review of the rules to a point where things like this cant be explained away and got away with.

[ArcticRed]

How about they start with voting on whether to keep PGMOL next year. Eliminate the biggest problem first. Who knows... even VAR might work near flawlessly if put in capable hands rather than given to monkeys.

[DelTrotter]

Jurgs "these people are not able to use it properly" sums it up nicely. Said as it is he'd vote for scrapping it.

[Fromola]

This was disgusting.

There needs to be a full review of the rules to a point where things like this cant be explained away and got away with.

United had been battered in their first two games. That put them 1-0 up and they won that game which turned their season. Although we'd started slow anyway our season never recovered from that game, whereas a win would have gave us more momentum. I think it was our first league defeat in 9 months.

[RyanBabel19]

Klopp said the same as many of us on here to be honest

[Fromola]

Jurgs "these people are not able to use it properly" sums it up nicely. Said as it is he'd vote for scrapping it.

"These people [PGMOL] are not able to use it properly, we can't change the people obviously that's clear, so yeah I would [vote to scrap].

Exactly. Whether you're for or against VAR, it can't work in the PL with the people using it and the way they use it, so there's no point having it because those same people will be using it next season. And we all know the refs will be bad anyway if they don't have it.

It's far less of a shitshow in the CL, in general.

[Crosby Nick]

United had been battered in their first two games. That put them 1-0 up and they won that game which turned their season. Although we'd started slow anyway our season never recovered from that game, whereas a win would have gave us more momentum. I think it was our first league defeat in 9 months.

They were one up through Sancho. That made it 2-0 which possibly made it easier to give as it wasn’t seen as so decisive. Even though we got our act together and finished strong so no reason to think we couldn’t have made it 1-1 had that not been given.

[oojason]

'Liverpool manager Klopp would 'vote for scrapping VAR'' - short video clip from Sky (in Klopp's press conference vs Wolves):-

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/7xd5BoNTQl8" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/7xd5BoNTQl8</a>

^ or click here to watch - www.youtube.com/v/7xd5BoNTQl8


"I don't think they're voting against VAR, I think they'll vote about how it gets used, because that's definitely not right. I understand that.

"In the way they do it, I would vote against it, because these people are not able to use it properly.

"I do not think VAR is the problem but the way we use it is the problem. So, you cannot change the people obviously, it's clear. You need them. So yeah, I would vote for scrapping VAR."



Full press conference here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FIPBbVM7Bo (from LFC)

[Andy @ Allerton!]

The only way that football can be saved is to fucking sack PGMOL

They are a gang of amateur fucking wankers with zero ability.

The Premier League has billions of quid invested into it. There should be an elite school training the best of the best and the idea and the aim should be to get the correct decision every time.

These c*nts get it wrong in every fucking single game. Forget corruption or bias. The aim should be to get the correct decision. The fact that they don't so often with every tool they have is a fucking joke and enough of an excuse to sack the useless bastards right there. Right now.

[A-Bomb]

The only way that football can be saved is to fucking sack PGMOL

They are a gang of amateur fucking wankers with zero ability.

The Premier League has billions of quid invested into it. There should be an elite school training the best of the best and the idea and the aim should be to get the correct decision every time.

These c*nts get it wrong in every fucking single game. Forget corruption or bias. The aim should be to get the correct decision. The fact that they don't so often with every tool they have is a fucking joke and enough of an excuse to sack the useless bastards right there. Right now.

So you're a fan then Andy 

You're right though for all the money swilling around the game, there really is no excuse not to have a credible body of refs with top class training infrastructure that drives meritocracy so the best rise to the top, with complete transparency in ALL aspects of their activities.

[nayia2002]

I'm surprised no one has realised that VAR has given them c*nt refs the power to manipulate the game/result of matches.
They know they can "hide" behind var now as we witness it week in week out

[MH41]

The only way that football can be saved is to fucking sack PGMOL

They are a gang of amateur fucking wankers with zero ability.

The Premier League has billions of quid invested into it. There should be an elite school training the best of the best and the idea and the aim should be to get the correct decision every time.

These c*nts get it wrong in every fucking single game. Forget corruption or bias. The aim should be to get the correct decision. The fact that they don't so often with every tool they have is a fucking joke and enough of an excuse to sack the useless bastards right there. Right now.

This is correct. I think the equipment has only failed twice? (The blind spot at the Emirates when Saka might have been offside against us being one)
So it is not the equipment that is the issue, it is the users.
Webb should go. It has got worse since he arrived, yet he refuses to acknowledge this, and they continue to back their colleagues incompetence.
You are right about the idea of an elite training school. Maybe they could look outside Manchester for officials too.
A Manchester official must never be involved in either a Liverpool, Utd or city game again regardless of who they say they support. Likewise for all other regional rivalries. I'm sure there are enough officials throughout the country to make this happen. If there are not, then Webb must be asked why there are not, and what is he doing to end this farce.
Also remove this 'high threshold' and 'clear and obvious' nonsense. Make the correct decision!
For the doku challenge, the ref should have been called to the screen, and asked if he had seen the challenge like this, would he have awarded a penalty, or does he want to go with his onfied decision?
When a 'checking potential red card' scenario, the ref should also be allowed to award a yellow card, rather than red or nothing.
And all these conversations should be available to the clubs, either in match, HT or FT for transparency and accountability.
Lines for every decision too should be mandatory..I still haven't seen any for our disallowed goal on Monday that would have made it 4-1.
In general, the officials are simply not good enough, and must be accountable.

[rob1966]

I'm surprised no one has realised that VAR has given them c*nt refs the power to manipulate the game/result of matches.
They know they can "hide" behind var now as we witness it week in week out

They've always done this though. That Sterling offside in 2014 cannot be explained for example, especially when you watch the video of Carra and Neville trying to flag offside and watch how the "professionals" do it. I still don't understand the lineo at Anfield who flagged us offside from a throw around 2006/07, we'd have scored if he'd let it go.

What clear and obvious does is allow them the get out of not having to correct their mates. I'm convinced they are trying to get VAR scrapped so they can go back to their dodgy ways unhindered.

[Mister Flip Flop]

Nothing will change. PGMOL will come out with some sort of fudge sending Webb out to talk to his gimp Michael Owen about how they are "listening to peoples concerns" etc... and will do all they can to improve meanwhile the gravy train of ineptness will continue.

[Elzar]

PGMOL and Howard Webb have announced they will go through various steps this summer to ensure the referee's are ready for the new season.

- Summer training camp, using school children to re-enact the premier league matches and decisions that have been scrutinised this season
- All referee's are assigned proper nicknames, there was previously confusion due to some being referred to by their first name, and some by their nickname.
- VAR officials will be given the best brand of crisps avaliable.
- Troy Deeney to host talks and session going over how a premier league footballer thinks on the football pitch
- New dietary plan in place, mainly consisting of Howard Webb's favourite Manchester Tart
- Monthly team bonding trips to take place, location and activity to be sorted by anonymous donator from the middle east.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

We can get rid of the people though, fuck the whole higher echelons of the PGMOL & all the PL refs off.

Bring in new blood, real professionals who know that they too will get fucked off, if they let their standards slip.

[redgriffin73]

PGMOL and Howard Webb have announced they will go through various steps this summer to ensure the referee's are ready for the new season.

- Summer training camp, using school children to re-enact the premier league matches and decisions that have been scrutinised this season
- All referee's are assigned proper nicknames, there was previously confusion due to some being referred to by their first name, and some by their nickname.
- VAR officials will be given the best brand of crisps avaliable.
- Troy Deeney to host talks and session going over how a premier league footballer thinks on the football pitch
- New dietary plan in place, mainly consisting of Howard Webb's favourite Manchester Tart
- Monthly team bonding trips to take place, location and activity to be sorted by anonymous donator from the middle east.

Don't know what this says about PGMOL that I actually thought this was real until the crisps one

[MH41]

My 'favourite' VAR decision.
'Possible red card'.... decision- no action required 

[MH41]

In the same game, Wham's first goal allowed despite climbing on Álisson's shoulder, and this for their 2nd goal.
VVD prevented from getting across to the goalscorer by the wham attacker who is in the offside position.

[rafathegaffa83]

We can get rid of the people though, fuck the whole higher echelons of the PGMOL & all the PL refs off.

Bring in new blood, real professionals who know that they too will get fucked off, if they let their standards slip.

PGMOL is a closed shop. It's not a meritocracy. If refs were demoted/promoted for performance like they used to be, I think you'd see an improvement in the quality of officiating.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

PGMOL is a closed shop. It's not a meritocracy. If refs were demoted/promoted for performance like they used to be, I think you'd see an improvement in the quality of officiating.

Is why it should be swept clean, it has always been an old boys club. I wouldn't mind that so much if they weren't all so fucking gash at their jobs & open to "legal" bribery.

[rob1966]

We can get rid of the people though, fuck the whole higher echelons of the PGMOL & all the PL refs off.

Bring in new blood, real professionals who know that they too will get fucked off, if they let their standards slip.

There will be retiring ex pros from the lower leagues who would love a £200k a year salary to train as a ref, I'd happily learn the LOTG and work as a VAR for £200k pa. The final decision is the refs, so for VAR only jobs, you don't need to be fit, you just need someone who understands the laws, knows if what they are seeing contravenes the law and requires a review from the ref and is able to work in a calm manner. There literally hundreds of thousands of people who could do a better job than this lot.

[JRed]

My 'favourite' VAR decision.
'Possible red card'.... decision- no action required 

Both came in high?

[Enders]

Both came in high?

Hendo has just put his leg in the way on purpose to make it appear as though he's been the victim of a clear assault on the pitch - no foul

I had actually completely forgot about that one, as there have been so many - it's fucking outrageous that wasn't a red card

[johnybarnes]

[smicer07]

No surprise to see City at the bottom given they've not had any big decisions go against them.

[CHOPPER]

Had a good season? Blame it on your team

Had a bad season? Blame it on VAR

Had a shit club? Blame it on Heysel

[Fromola]

Talk now of FIFA bringing in a challenge system which the likes of Lineker keep advocating. 2 challenges per game per team and you keep them if they're upheld.

So that's a minimum of 4 VAR disruptions every game at 10+ minutes, potentially anotther 4 at another 10+ minutes - all for subjective decisions that the other team won't agree with anyway and will still cause loads of controversy. Particularly on penalty reviews.

They really don't think anything through, which is why we got lumbered with this crap in the first place.

At least with VAR you still get plenty of games where it isn't really used/needed and you don't notice it.

Just get rid until there's technology that actually works and is automated like with the goal-line and out the hands of referees.