Author Topic: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General  (Read 1392518 times)

Offline slowtyper

  • Kemlynite
  • **
  • Posts: 16
  • "and put them in the devils cave below, see".
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26200 on: May 17, 2024, 07:24:44 pm »
I think they should suspend it for a season
. That gives the fans a chance to see if it's better the old way. In the meantime, PGMOL get a year to iron out all the fails in the system. None of this using the season as an evolving experiment. Changing the rules employed at the beginning of the season to a totally different standard by the time it ends. The Diaz fiasco no goal at Tottenham being the prime example of this. Every goal had to go through a prolonged checklist, so as not to make another mistake. Then they started making more mistakes because they over-analysed it.

Offline redgriffin73

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,697
  • Thanks for everything Rafa. Nunca Caminarás Solo.
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26201 on: May 17, 2024, 07:25:57 pm »
Had a good season? Blame it on your team

Had a bad season? Blame it on VAR

Had a shit club? Blame it on Heysel

Can't control your feet? Blame it on the Boogie
Rafa Benitez: "I'll always keep in my heart the good times I've had here, the strong and loyal support of the fans in the tough times and the love from Liverpool. I have no words to thank you enough for all these years and I am very proud to say that I was your manager. Thank you so much once more and always remember: You'll never walk alone."

Offline wenlock

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 174
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26202 on: May 17, 2024, 09:53:44 pm »
All the money of the premier league and instead of an elite academy with a clear route of excellence, that can train applicants from all over the uk, they recruit from a couple of supporters pubs in manchester.
"I'm surprised they don't charge me rent and rates."
Bob Paisley after his 11th visit to Wembley

Offline GreatEx

  • pectations. might be a cunt but isn't a capitalist cunt. Blissfully ignorant.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,473
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26203 on: May 17, 2024, 11:50:32 pm »
An absolute farce if they scrap VAR. There will be carnage as soon as the first offside is missed or the first handball etc.

I find it remarkable that Wolves (or anyone) would think that the answer is to throw it in the bin. Improve the tech, modernise the laws of the game to make it more compatible with video refereeing, get better people running the refereeing in the country, fire anyone who doesn't send their mate to the video screen to "protect" them & stop the referees protecting themselves all the fucking time, acknowledge that some other sports are better at this stuff than football is and try and take some learnings from there. There are so many options to get this going in a better way.

It can't go back in the box now, just invest and make it better for fucks sake.

I'm curious to read what form you (and others) think this modernisation would take. We can all agree that the subjective element of many football decisions make them incompatible with video refereeing where other sports have objective decisions that are better suited, like tennis line calls. One "evolution" we have seen with VAR was an explosion in handball penalties, because whereas the traditional method gave the ref some leeway in deciding whether the hand really affected anything or was done with intent, now you had someone who is only thinking "what might the ref have not seen", meaning that any incident of ball striking hand became a penalty. As things became increasingly farcical, the authorities tried to relitigate on the fly, and now it's just a mess where some get penalised for having the ball blasted at them from a foot away, and others are allowed to play basketball. So what rule change can resolve this situation? I imagine it would have to be with strict objective criteria - VAR can only work if all rules in its remit are objective. But handball has never worked that way. So what is the answer?

The above is one of many instances of how I think VAR has led to worse decision making. I see that many in the last few pages argue that VAR can lead to better outcomes than no-VAR if run by better people, and I can see how that might seem self-evident, but I actually disagree. As Stewy hints at in this post, you'd have to fundamentally alter the laws of the game to turn this assumption into fact. Do we want a whole new book of laws?

Finally, I agree with those who have said it would be better to withdraw VAR while working on its flaws, than to ruin another season with more trial and error. It doesn't have to be a permanent scrapping, but it needs to be rebuilt from the ground up before reinserting. I think you're kidding yourself if you think a new group of people can be subbed in and everything will just click.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2024, 12:53:47 am by GreatEx »

Offline Avens

  • Look around you! Clearly knows his Gary Gum from his Anti-Gary Gum.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,828
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26204 on: May 18, 2024, 12:42:17 am »
The whole attitude towards it from the referees themselves is probably the biggest problem with VAR. It's best exemplified by an occasion where VAR worked well. I can't remember the event itself but there was some audio released a while back, in which the linesman said that he was holding the raising of the flag until play had stopped, because he believed someone was offside, but he wanted to let play continue. It led to a goal being scored and the linesman then raised his flag. VAR checked it and determined it was onside so the decision was overturned and the goal was given.

The linesman was so apologetic for the incorrect decision and the rest of the officiating team were consoling him for it. It should have been received in the exact opposite way. It was an excellent process (triggering, I know) and resulted in the right decision. The linesman should have been receiving praise for holding his flag and letting the move play out. Instead, their reactions highlighted the way that they see VAR as undermining them or making them look silly. And that's it's biggest problem. Until they look at refereeing with an understanding that they're fallible and that VAR is there to help, not undermine, there will be a tension with it that results in dreadful non-decisions.
We have to change from doubter to believer. Now. - Jurgen Klopp

Online stoa

  • way. Daydream. Quite partial to a good plonking.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,556
  • Five+One Times, Baby...
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26205 on: May 18, 2024, 01:16:57 am »
The whole attitude towards it from the referees themselves is probably the biggest problem with VAR. It's best exemplified by an occasion where VAR worked well. I can't remember the event itself but there was some audio released a while back, in which the linesman said that he was holding the raising of the flag until play had stopped, because he believed someone was offside, but he wanted to let play continue. It led to a goal being scored and the linesman then raised his flag. VAR checked it and determined it was onside so the decision was overturned and the goal was given.

The linesman was so apologetic for the incorrect decision and the rest of the officiating team were consoling him for it. It should have been received in the exact opposite way. It was an excellent process (triggering, I know) and resulted in the right decision. The linesman should have been receiving praise for holding his flag and letting the move play out. Instead, their reactions highlighted the way that they see VAR as undermining them or making them look silly. And that's it's biggest problem. Until they look at refereeing with an understanding that they're fallible and that VAR is there to help, not undermine, there will be a tension with it that results in dreadful non-decisions.

I've been saying that for a while, but maybe not as articulate as you. I would even argue it's not just the refs that need to change their perspective. Football as a whole (media, players, managers, supporters) needs to change its attitude towards VAR. It shouldn't be seen as this higher authority deciding whether the ref has made a mistake (which going by the VAR protocol isn't the intention). It should be seen as a means to get to the right decision just like the linos are. If a lino signals for a foul the ref hasn't seen, it's not taken as the lino overruling the ref, it's seen as them supporting the ref. The same attitude should be applied to the VAR.

The problem is that not even PGMOL are using VAR that way, by basically giving the VAR the power to decide whether the ref goes to the monitor or simply makes the decision for him (like the Doku kick not being a foul). That's a fundamental mistake in the way the VAR is applied in the Premier League (and maybe in other leagues as well). It has been made clear by IFAB, that the ref is the person who makes every decision in a match and is in charge of the whole affair, but the way VAR is used at the moment, you have the ref making a decision and then the VAR making a decision (more often than not confirming what the ref has said, because apparently they don't want to make them look bad). That's how you get decisions like the Doku one or the Odegaard handball. The right way to deal with those would have been for the VAR to tell the ref that what he has said about the incident is not what has actually happened (players just coming together with the Doku kick and Odegaard not putting his hand on the floor). Then the decision should have been made by the ref, to look at it again himself. Instead, you have the ref saying it's not a penalty and then the VAR saying again it's not a penalty. It's two decisions made by two separate people, which goes against the principle of the ref being in charge of the game.

There are cases where it's fine for the VAR to make the call, because they have the means to do it (and those are "objective" decisions as mentioned in the VAR-protocol), like drawing the lines for offsides or saying whether a foul happened in the penalty area or not. They should not be making subjective decisions though like with Doku or Odegaard. The ref should be the one making that call and in both cases, he wasn't.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2024, 01:20:40 am by stoa »

Online Fromola

  • For the love of god please shut the fuck up. Lomola... “The sky is falling and I’m off to tell the King!...” Places stock in the wrong opinions. Miserable F*cker! Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,169
  • Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26206 on: May 18, 2024, 07:26:41 am »
I'm curious to read what form you (and others) think this modernisation would take. We can all agree that the subjective element of many football decisions make them incompatible with video refereeing where other sports have objective decisions that are better suited, like tennis line calls. One "evolution" we have seen with VAR was an explosion in handball penalties, because whereas the traditional method gave the ref some leeway in deciding whether the hand really affected anything or was done with intent, now you had someone who is only thinking "what might the ref have not seen", meaning that any incident of ball striking hand became a penalty. As things became increasingly farcical, the authorities tried to relitigate on the fly, and now it's just a mess where some get penalised for having the ball blasted at them from a foot away, and others are allowed to play basketball. So what rule change can resolve this situation? I imagine it would have to be with strict objective criteria - VAR can only work if all rules in its remit are objective. But handball has never worked that way. So what is the answer?

The above is one of many instances of how I think VAR has led to worse decision making. I see that many in the last few pages argue that VAR can lead to better outcomes than no-VAR if run by better people, and I can see how that might seem self-evident, but I actually disagree. As Stewy hints at in this post, you'd have to fundamentally alter the laws of the game to turn this assumption into fact. Do we want a whole new book of laws?

Finally, I agree with those who have said it would be better to withdraw VAR while working on its flaws, than to ruin another season with more trial and error. It doesn't have to be a permanent scrapping, but it needs to be rebuilt from the ground up before reinserting. I think you're kidding yourself if you think a new group of people can be subbed in and everything will just click.

I'd say rules need simplifying.

Offside rule has been a nightmare with VAR. Firstly because it's changed what is considered offside compared to before and also because of all the intricacies around the rule. For example, Van Dijk's goal in the cup final (Endo 'interfering') or Salah being pushed into an offside position and then having the goal overturned for it at Burnley. These are nonsensical things that would never have been even looked at pre-VAR, but everything has to be so literal. Whereas sides like Arsenal constantly dance around the rules and get away with it.

Offsides - Therefore you could simplify it so that (as an example) you're offside only if all the foot is offside and that is basically it (at least as far as the bar for a VAR overturn). People are then satisfied that if a goal is disallowed it's a clear decision. Either that or have thicker lines at least. You could have one other scenario where a defender is deliberately blocking the goalkeeper because players will cheat and take advantage of anything. Then you can have a VAR system to check that - otherwise have the semi-automated/automated system to check whether all the foot was offside. The offside rule has gone so far from its original purpose, magnified more by VAR.

Handball - it's been a minefield since VAR came in and it's applied differently in different competitions. I'd say deliberate handball in the area - penalty. Arm in an unnatural position - indirect free kick. Otherwise - leave it. From a VAR point of view only overturn to give pen if it's determined to be a deliberate handball.

That's where you need slight rule changes.

The problem is a foul in the box is always going to be subjective. Give VAR the remit to overturn a clear dive in the box (i.e. blatant cheating) and that's it. Consequence of VAR has been more and more pens and there's too many of them. The ref is fudging making decisions because of VAR - the ref needs to decide if it's a pen. Same with a goal, you can't have goals ruled out by VAR for a subjective foul in the build up. The ref has to make that decision. If the VAR can't decide that Doku on Mac is a pen - and is backed on it - then why bother giving it the remit to give penalties for anything but deliberate handball?

And then red cards. Another minefield is what's violent conduct and what isn't. The Jones one from VAR was a joke or the Calvert Lewin one for Everton in the cup. VAR should only be overturning over the really bad ones. And also to overturn a red card that was given - like Mac Allister at Bournemouth which they didn't bother doing.

It needs simplifying and streamlining to work. If the above was all applied then it's far less disruptive to fans but guards more against the howlers which was how VAR was sold anyway.

With all that attacking sides benefit from the offside changes and the defensive sides benefit from less penalties.






« Last Edit: May 18, 2024, 07:39:29 am by Fromola »
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline GreatEx

  • pectations. might be a cunt but isn't a capitalist cunt. Blissfully ignorant.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,473
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26207 on: May 18, 2024, 07:47:06 am »
"everything has to be so literal. "

Exactly. That's what I was getting at with my handball talk. These have always been nuanced decisions, but with VAR it's become, "did it touch the hand? Yes or no". Well, at least sometimes. Depends how each refereeing team sees the game (or their preferred outcome, take your pick).

With respect, I don't think the changes you suggest simplify matters. You mention the word "deliberate" several times, and separating "really bad" decisions from the merely incorrect ,hence it's still subjective. I think the only way a technology driven, 100% objective system will work is if any attacker in an offside position is in violation regardless of whether they are "active", and that every touch of ball on hand is a penalty (or indirect free kick, which I agree should be the outcome under such strict conditions), which is why I asked whether we truly want the rule changes that would make the system reliable. I sure don't.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2024, 07:49:23 am by GreatEx »

Offline fowlermagic

  • Ilittarate
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,573
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26208 on: May 18, 2024, 07:49:35 am »
Imagine life with a simple way of looking at things, you know what's right and wrong and you get on with it even when it's not going your way. Then you add VAR outlook on life where every joyous moment has to be reviewed to the finest detail to see if that happiness can be written off due to an unseen foul that maybe a foul for one ref and not for another or a toe crossing a line. God what the game has come to, a pale shadow of it's former glory.
I have a simple philosophy: Fill what's empty. Empty what's full. Scratch where it itches. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi5-V75v-6I

Online Fromola

  • For the love of god please shut the fuck up. Lomola... “The sky is falling and I’m off to tell the King!...” Places stock in the wrong opinions. Miserable F*cker! Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,169
  • Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26209 on: May 18, 2024, 08:00:49 am »
"everything has to be so literal. "

Exactly. That's what I was getting at with my handball talk. These have always been nuanced decisions, but with VAR it's become, "did it touch the hand? Yes or no". Well, at least sometimes. Depends how each refereeing team sees the game (or their preferred outcome, take your pick).

With respect, I don't think the changes you suggest simplify matters. You mention the word "deliberate" several times, and separating "really bad" decisions from the merely incorrect ,hence it's still subjective. I think the only way a technology driven, 100% objective system will work is if any attacker in an offside position is in violation regardless of whether they are "active", and that every touch of ball on hand is a penalty (or indirect free kick, which I agree should be the outcome under such strict conditions), which is why I asked whether we truly want the rule changes that would make the system reliable. I sure don't.

Personally i'd rather just go back to playing without VAR altogether, but ideally you'd have the guard against howlers. Again, a big bugbear for me this season is we've had several howlers this season alone that VAR still hasn't overturned. But, even then, what is a howler of a decision is subjective. It's meant though we've had the double negative of VAR impacting on the enjoyment of the game (I lose interest during long goal checks) but still missing obvious errors.

The problem with no technology used is there's no fail safe against the Maradona handball or a player miles offside and the goal stands - or well onside and it's disallowed. But it's become clear that it's all or nothing and it was Sepp Blatter - who was against video tech on this reason - that warned against it.

It'd be nice to have a common sense middle ground where VAR is rarely used at all, but is there to step in if something mad happens. It's never going to be like that though. I'd rather have none of it than all of it if that's what it boils down to. Football is just too subjective and fast paced for the technology it's brought in. It's not cricket where the game naturally stops after every ball is bowled, or tennis after every point.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2024, 08:07:18 am by Fromola »
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline GreatEx

  • pectations. might be a cunt but isn't a capitalist cunt. Blissfully ignorant.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,473
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26210 on: May 18, 2024, 08:14:20 am »
Yeah, I think the only justification for VAR is in those cases where the ref didn't see something. So VAR says to ref, "Maradona used his hand to put the ball in the net", ref either says "yes I saw it and considered it accidental" in which case play on (and put ref in witness protection) or ref says "OK I thought it was a header", watches replay (on wrist device please, let's move things along) and gives a free kick. That's it. Otherwise, fuck it off.

Online Dr. Beaker

  • Veo, to his mates. Shares 50% of his DNA with a banana. Would dearly love to strangle Frankengoose. Lo! Be he not ye Messiah, verily be he a child of questionable conduct in the eyes of Ye Holy Border Guards.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,965
  • I... think I am, therefore...I....maybe.
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26211 on: May 18, 2024, 09:39:42 am »
Moving the line from the front of the foot to the back of the foot would make absolutely no difference.
NAKED BOOBERY

Rile-Me costed L. Nee-Naw "The Child" Torrence the first jack the hat-trick since Eon Rush vs Accursed Toffos, many moons passed. Nee-Naw he could have done a concreted his palace in the pantyhose off the LibPole Gods...was not was for the invented intervention of Rile-Me whistler.

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

  • Missing an asterisk - no, wait sorry, that's his rusty starfish..... RAWK Apple fanboy. Hedley Lamarr's bestest mate. Has done nothing incredible ever.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 73,912
  • Asterisks baby!
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26212 on: May 18, 2024, 09:44:10 am »
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

  • Missing an asterisk - no, wait sorry, that's his rusty starfish..... RAWK Apple fanboy. Hedley Lamarr's bestest mate. Has done nothing incredible ever.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 73,912
  • Asterisks baby!
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26213 on: May 18, 2024, 09:45:21 am »
Talk now of FIFA bringing in a challenge system which the likes of Lineker keep advocating. 2 challenges per game per team and you keep them if they're upheld.

So that's a minimum of 4 VAR disruptions every game at 10+ minutes, potentially anotther 4 at another 10+ minutes - all for subjective decisions that the other team won't agree with anyway and will still cause loads of controversy. Particularly on penalty reviews.

They really don't think anything through, which is why we got lumbered with this crap in the first place.

At least with VAR you still get plenty of games where it isn't really used/needed and you don't notice it.

Just get rid until there's technology that actually works and is automated like with the goal-line and out the hands of referees.

If there are challenges then I think it's unlikely that you have challenges AND VAR

The way I'd imagine it would work would be that VAR does nothing unless there is a challenge.
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Online zero zero

  • Karma's a bitch. Innit.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,701
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26214 on: May 18, 2024, 09:48:46 am »
Our fans are fucking pricks.
Self knowledge is the first step to wisdom

Online Fromola

  • For the love of god please shut the fuck up. Lomola... “The sky is falling and I’m off to tell the King!...” Places stock in the wrong opinions. Miserable F*cker! Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,169
  • Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26215 on: May 18, 2024, 09:54:03 am »
If there are challenges then I think it's unlikely that you have challenges AND VAR

The way I'd imagine it would work would be that VAR does nothing unless there is a challenge.

Yes, but a challenge system means multiple uses of technology and delays EVERY game and the challenges will mostly come in after goals (still takes away the enjoyment) or for penalty decisions (that are subjective anyway). It doesn't improve things.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Online Fromola

  • For the love of god please shut the fuck up. Lomola... “The sky is falling and I’m off to tell the King!...” Places stock in the wrong opinions. Miserable F*cker! Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,169
  • Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26216 on: May 18, 2024, 09:58:09 am »


Is it the 3 relegated teams or 3 promoted teams that get the vote? I'd imagine clubs used to playing without it would rather not have it, issue is the clubs in Europe.

The Athletic might give a reasonable snap shot of opinion, but that isn't going to be reflective of the wider/matchday fanbase necessary. It's a subscription only American website.

If you polled season ticket holders at the 20 clubs, for example, i'd imagine the scrap it vote would be higher. More would put up with VAR if it was less disruptive.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline GreatEx

  • pectations. might be a cunt but isn't a capitalist cunt. Blissfully ignorant.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,473
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26217 on: May 18, 2024, 10:00:32 am »
Challenges are a terrible idea. Say you get 2 per team per match, well teams average than 2 goals per game so basically every goal will be challenged in the hope of finding something somewhere in the build up. Maybe you add a punishment for failed appeals, but no matter how harsh you make it, there will always be times when it's worth the cost. But hey, if Liverpool keeps defending like it has recently, we'll have the situation where we have to score at least 3 goals to win and at least 3 goals to be able to celebrate one.

Online LovelyCushionedHeader

  • Not so pleasant non-upholstered footer
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,216
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26218 on: May 18, 2024, 10:00:51 am »

Our fans are fucking pricks.

Delightful.

I hate VAR but it's not hard to understand why some of our fans would support it's retention. We get screwed over with the system, but imagine how much worse it would be if the same officials didn't have to use it.

Diaz's goal still gets ruled out, Mac Allister still gets sent off, we still don't get penalties against City and Arsenal.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2024, 10:05:09 am by LovelyCushionedHeader »
And if the rain stops, and everything's dry.. she would cry, just so I could drink tears from her eyes.

Online Hazell

  • Ultimate Movie Night Draft Winner 2017. King - or Queen - of Mystery. Hyzenthlay. The 5th Benitle's sex conch.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 77,493
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26219 on: May 18, 2024, 10:03:20 am »
Delightful.

That's unusually 'out there' from Andy.
We have to change from doubter to believer. Now.

Offline fowlermagic

  • Ilittarate
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,573
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26220 on: May 18, 2024, 10:04:26 am »
If there are challenges then I think it's unlikely that you have challenges AND VAR

The way I'd imagine it would work would be that VAR does nothing unless there is a challenge.

Let's add another layer of American bs on top of all the other shyte we have gotten since the game has become three hours of analysis prior/post on TV. The first day I say those bollixs Gray and Keys trying to add "entertainment" with their play by play analysis n stats bs I knew the game was on a slippery slope. Here we are on the verge of City buying n bribing another title and the football world will stand up and applaud them knowing it's a bitter chalice they drink from. Fuck VAR and to be honest I won't even watch much football this weekend as it's a piss poor imitation of the game we played as boys
I have a simple philosophy: Fill what's empty. Empty what's full. Scratch where it itches. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi5-V75v-6I

Offline Dench57

  • Self-confessed tit. Can't sit still. She's got the hippy hippy crack.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,923
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26221 on: May 18, 2024, 10:27:17 am »
get it BINNED


they're not gonna vote to scrap it are they
Loving Everton's business this summer. Here's an early call - they finish above Liverpool this season.
- Richard Keys (@richardajkeys) July 9, 2017

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

  • Missing an asterisk - no, wait sorry, that's his rusty starfish..... RAWK Apple fanboy. Hedley Lamarr's bestest mate. Has done nothing incredible ever.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 73,912
  • Asterisks baby!
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26222 on: May 18, 2024, 10:43:18 am »
That's unusually 'out there' from Andy.

Just saw that fucking Manc twat is 'refereeing' our game on Sunday.

Fuck PGMOL and fuck Howard Webb. Fucking gobshite.

Oh and fucking David Fucking Coote on fucking VAR.

Fuck me.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2024, 11:14:23 am by Andy @ Allerton! »
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Online BoRed

  • BoRing
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,066
  • BoRac
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26223 on: May 18, 2024, 11:22:51 am »
Challenges are a terrible idea.

It's a terrible idea on so many levels, so no wonder FIFA are proposing it. How is a manager from the dugout supposed to make a challenge when in most cases they have no idea what happened. Someone on the bench would need to be watching the game on TV and hoping they show clear replays in time to make a challenge. Or they'd have to rely on the players passing the message that they should challenge, while the game progresses. And once your challenges are up, you know the most blatant of errors won't get checked, how can that make sense? And we already know even the most legitimate challenges will be dismissed, so you challenge for Odegaard's handball and Doku's foul on MacAllister, lose your challenges and then the ref gets a free pass to disallow Diaz's goal even though he's comfortably onside.

Online Fromola

  • For the love of god please shut the fuck up. Lomola... “The sky is falling and I’m off to tell the King!...” Places stock in the wrong opinions. Miserable F*cker! Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,169
  • Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26224 on: May 18, 2024, 11:54:57 am »
Challenges are a terrible idea. Say you get 2 per team per match, well teams average than 2 goals per game so basically every goal will be challenged in the hope of finding something somewhere in the build up. Maybe you add a punishment for failed appeals, but no matter how harsh you make it, there will always be times when it's worth the cost. But hey, if Liverpool keeps defending like it has recently, we'll have the situation where we have to score at least 3 goals to win and at least 3 goals to be able to celebrate one.

VAR has made many games 100 minutes long. Challenges will make it more like 120 (if more than one each or kept if upheld) and forget celebrating a goal again.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Online Fromola

  • For the love of god please shut the fuck up. Lomola... “The sky is falling and I’m off to tell the King!...” Places stock in the wrong opinions. Miserable F*cker! Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,169
  • Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26225 on: May 18, 2024, 11:58:40 am »
Delightful.

I hate VAR but it's not hard to understand why some of our fans would support it's retention. We get screwed over with the system, but imagine how much worse it would be if the same officials didn't have to use it.

Diaz's goal still gets ruled out, Mac Allister still gets sent off, we still don't get penalties against City and Arsenal.

At the same time though VAR has made the officials a lot worse. PL refs weren't great 5 years ago, by any means, but weren't uniformly terrible every week either. I can't remember coming away talking about the ref every week, or being robbed, some games but not most.

Standards have gone through the floor since VAR came in.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline Knight

  • No one understands football like me.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,409
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26226 on: May 18, 2024, 12:05:50 pm »
At the same time though VAR has made the officials a lot worse. PL refs weren't great 5 years ago, by any means, but weren't uniformly terrible every week either. I can't remember coming away talking about the ref every week, or being robbed, some games but not most.

Standards have gone through the floor since VAR came in.

This wouldn’t be a surprise. Sat navs made the ability to navigate worse. Fast speed internet has made the ability to memorise facts worse (why would you need to). VAR has reshaped the experience of watching in significant ways. It’s reshaped the actual laws of football in certain respects. It’s reshaped the nature of referring at the highest level and perhaps part of this is they’re now worse at their jobs.

Some great posts the last couple of pages. Rhymes with what I’ve been thinking for a while and better expressed than I’d of said it.

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

  • Missing an asterisk - no, wait sorry, that's his rusty starfish..... RAWK Apple fanboy. Hedley Lamarr's bestest mate. Has done nothing incredible ever.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 73,912
  • Asterisks baby!
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26227 on: May 18, 2024, 12:13:37 pm »
At the same time though VAR has made the officials a lot worse. PL refs weren't great 5 years ago, by any means, but weren't uniformly terrible every week either. I can't remember coming away talking about the ref every week, or being robbed, some games but not most.

Standards have gone through the floor since VAR came in.

It's absolutely bonkers how much PMGOL have managed to fuck it up.

Hardly anyone celebrates goals any more. Went to another funeral yesterday and talking to Reds and Blues that go to the game and we all agreed that VAR and PGMOL have literally sucked the life out of the game.

Everyone is just expecting goals to be disallowed for 'something.. something.. something.."

One of the best bits about football was scoring a great goal and everyone going mad and for a few seconds forgetting all your problems and the day-to-day and just being estastic and elated and celebrating.

You can't do that any more because you know there is a fair chance that some bullshit is about to be enacted.

I'm going to have to stop talking about PGMOL and VAR and fucking bent referees. Just pissing me off even fucking thinking about the bent c*nts.
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

  • Missing an asterisk - no, wait sorry, that's his rusty starfish..... RAWK Apple fanboy. Hedley Lamarr's bestest mate. Has done nothing incredible ever.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 73,912
  • Asterisks baby!
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26228 on: May 18, 2024, 12:14:59 pm »
Delightful.

I hate VAR but it's not hard to understand why some of our fans would support it's retention. We get screwed over with the system, but imagine how much worse it would be if the same officials didn't have to use it.

Diaz's goal still gets ruled out, Mac Allister still gets sent off, we still don't get penalties against City and Arsenal.

Yeah was a bit mad the response to be fair :D
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Offline Dench57

  • Self-confessed tit. Can't sit still. She's got the hippy hippy crack.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,923
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26229 on: May 18, 2024, 12:21:36 pm »
I'm going to have to stop talking about PGMOL and VAR and fucking bent referees.

Loving Everton's business this summer. Here's an early call - they finish above Liverpool this season.
- Richard Keys (@richardajkeys) July 9, 2017

Online Fromola

  • For the love of god please shut the fuck up. Lomola... “The sky is falling and I’m off to tell the King!...” Places stock in the wrong opinions. Miserable F*cker! Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,169
  • Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26230 on: May 18, 2024, 12:24:01 pm »
I think they should suspend it for a season
. That gives the fans a chance to see if it's better the old way. In the meantime, PGMOL get a year to iron out all the fails in the system. None of this using the season as an evolving experiment. Changing the rules employed at the beginning of the season to a totally different standard by the time it ends. The Diaz fiasco no goal at Tottenham being the prime example of this. Every goal had to go through a prolonged checklist, so as not to make another mistake. Then they started making more mistakes because they over-analysed it.

Thinking about it strategically:

Suspend it for a season: refs will still be awful so you'll get calls to bring it back. On the other hand it'll lead to more calls for reform with PGMOL because while the anger is directed at VAR the scrutiny isn't on them.

Keep it next season: Wolves have put a marker down. Say the vote is close to level. VAR isn't getting any better with the same officials. Let it destroy itself next season, while fans get more militant against it and calls grow louder to get rid of it. Then put the vote forward again.

Keep it next season with the changes made and it works a lot better and the noise starts to go away.

Option 3 is cloud cuckoo land (it gets worse the more they mess with it and it's the same officials using it).

On balance option 2 is the better strategy, but another season without celebrating goals, while also losing Klopp, would hardly set the pulses racing for next season.

Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

  • Missing an asterisk - no, wait sorry, that's his rusty starfish..... RAWK Apple fanboy. Hedley Lamarr's bestest mate. Has done nothing incredible ever.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 73,912
  • Asterisks baby!
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26231 on: May 18, 2024, 12:24:58 pm »


It's going to be as hard as Dougal giving up rollerblading..
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Online zero zero

  • Karma's a bitch. Innit.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,701

Online Hazell

  • Ultimate Movie Night Draft Winner 2017. King - or Queen - of Mystery. Hyzenthlay. The 5th Benitle's sex conch.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 77,493
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26233 on: May 18, 2024, 01:37:36 pm »
Just saw that fucking Manc twat is 'refereeing' our game on Sunday.

Fuck PGMOL and fuck Howard Webb. Fucking gobshite.

Oh and fucking David Fucking Coote on fucking VAR.

Fuck me.

I'd be more surprised if a Manc wasn't reffing us. Think he's the ref that was in the League Cup final, you know the one that ruled out Van Dijk's goal and missed Caicedo's challenge that put Gravenberch out for 3 weeks.
We have to change from doubter to believer. Now.

Online Fromola

  • For the love of god please shut the fuck up. Lomola... “The sky is falling and I’m off to tell the King!...” Places stock in the wrong opinions. Miserable F*cker! Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 32,169
  • Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26234 on: May 18, 2024, 02:44:47 pm »
I'd be more surprised if a Manc wasn't reffing us. Think he's the ref that was in the League Cup final, you know the one that ruled out Van Dijk's goal and missed Caicedo's challenge that put Gravenberch out for 3 weeks.

Kavanagh was the VAR official that didn't give the Rodri handball, sent Robertson off at Spurs (but not Kane for a worse foul) and was sent to the screen in the derby to overturn Calvert Lewins dive and still gave the pen without even looking at it.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline WhereAngelsPlay

  • Rockwool Marketing Board Spokesman. Cracker Wanker. Fucking calmest man on RAWK, alright? ALRIGHT?! Definitely a bigger cunt than YOU!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 26,756
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26235 on: May 18, 2024, 02:46:02 pm »
At the same time though VAR has made the officials a lot worse. PL refs weren't great 5 years ago, by any means, but weren't uniformly terrible every week either. I can't remember coming away talking about the ref every week, or being robbed, some games but not most.

Standards have gone through the floor since VAR came in shone a big fuck off light on their incompetence.
My cup, it runneth over, I'll never get my fill

Offline 4pool

  • Mr. ( last name) Minister Of Truth - 1984 to 1984. The first to do a Moyesed. A pore grammarist.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 52,977
  • Liverpool: European Capital of Football 2005/2006
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26236 on: May 18, 2024, 03:33:47 pm »
With VAR binned, the match officials will come under more scrutiny to get their calls correctly. If they don't the media aren't going away. They'll be analyzing everything and pointing out the errors.

Im not sure how you came to this conclusion. The media have been absolutley complicit in the shit storm we have witnessed all year.. from the Diaz no goal  media{pundit}reaction mid game to the orchestrated silencing of any questions 2 hours later.. the media{in general} are TOLD what to say. none of these pricks are going to have their noses removed from the money trough, so they keep their head down.. you know the worlds on its head when the likes of Goldberg broach the subject, yet Spit and Rat boy say fuck all



You must have forgotten when VAR wasn't involved.

The officials made errors. Sure they did. The media pointed these out and clamored for VAR to "fix" the problem. Errors would be eliminated and stopped.

This is what we were sold to bring VAR in.

How's it gone since?

More errors than before. By more errors, I mean calls we were told would be corrected aren't. It is worse. Not better.

And what do we get as an answer, improve the officials and technology.

Football wasn't broke before VAR, It is broke now.


Go back to footy without VAR and what will we get? Matches where, yes, calls will be gotten wrong or missed. And the media will scream about them putting pressure on the officials to get the calls correct. Where as now, with VAR, we get well it was a 50/50 or bias from certain pundits which doesn't improve any aspect of VAR.

Bin the VAR shit show.

Either we are a club of supporters or become a club of customers.

Offline WhereAngelsPlay

  • Rockwool Marketing Board Spokesman. Cracker Wanker. Fucking calmest man on RAWK, alright? ALRIGHT?! Definitely a bigger cunt than YOU!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 26,756
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26237 on: May 18, 2024, 04:01:37 pm »
Yeah you are right, the whole country went mad over this.


My cup, it runneth over, I'll never get my fill

Online JRed

  • After a 2L bottle of strongbow I’d do anything!
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,076
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26238 on: May 18, 2024, 04:06:56 pm »
Yeah you are right, the whole country went mad over this.



Fucking loved it the c*nts didn’t they?

Offline SK8 Red

  • A spanking! A spanking!
  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 217
  • Supporting since 1983 at a guess
Re: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General
« Reply #26239 on: May 18, 2024, 04:42:25 pm »
So the refs panel agreed that Gordon wasn't fouled at Old Trafford on Wednesday?

What a load of shite