Topic: Rafa's "Houllier Moment"

[Dr. Beaker]

Hello Dr. Beaker Sir. Haven't seen you in ages.
You missed a cracker last night. I was gutted after the game so decided to cheer meslef up by posting a sack Rafa thread. You'd have laughed at some of the reponses.
But what really made me laugh is, I come in here and found 4 PM's congratulating me on finally saying what loads of them are thinking.

If I had a mind, it would truly boggle

Hiya Fats, a bit like the 'LFC are shite' thread methinks.

This all reminds me of me days at sea. When a crew was just a week or so away from home after a long trip, everyone got the 'channels' - a condition characterised by illogical bizzare and self-destuctive behaviour such as extreme violence towards officers in front of witnesses, or trying to shag the goldfish, etc.

I totally agree with what you said above about deserting LFC during any period when Mourinho was involved - I would be physically sick. Literally.

Keep fighting the fight me ol' mate.

[Walshy nMe®]

Well, I finally got round to reading the answers.....

What a fucking top top post that is.  Anyone bellend who disagrees with that deserves to be fucking frogmarched in front of Rafa and explain in person what a c*nt he is.

[steveeastend]

I stated this a couple of times before: Everyone who´s thinking of sacking Rafa has no clue on football and the given circumstances.
It´s the same all over the world. There are too many people thinking they know something on football. Most of them don´t. Most of these "Why don´t Rafa..." are missing the point by the distance from here to the moon.
I played on a professional level and can tell you that the only things that bothers me are the summer transfers (Keane) and a few other ones which I can understand now as the true circumstances in the last couple of years came out recently.
And the other thing which really bothers me is the behaviour of the players of Manchester United and their spoiled manager having 30 million + given from his board to add some quality to the squad.
If you cannot see the point here, you better act like a fan...


Without Rafa with the given board and budget we would be nowhere...

[KOTP]

can people sayin we are joint top of the league stop sayin it in the belief that its true! if the season was to end the same way we would be 2nd!!! not joint league winners talk about spin!!!!

[martinjmmac5]

Houlliers team did win the CL. Only execptions were Garcia and Alonso and feel free to add the 1 or 2 names I am missing.

It annoys me when people slag of Ged. He did a lot of great things for this club. Granted, his time came to an end, but he played his part.

yer, people posting the two squads rafa's and his, houlliers team won the champions league basically. no point having a great squad when he played a 4-6 formation against stoke city.

[Fat Scouser]

I'm not judging him i am saying his decisions are ridiculous and i am predicting and discussing that if he keeps being this stubborn we will be fucked, i can't be the only one seeing that his tactics are terrible, saw lucas and yossi last night comin on and there was a collective sigh from the kop, can he not hear this can he not see this

Of course he fucking can and so can the players. How do you think that makes them feel?

as you can see Doc, the good fight is a losing battle

[Mark.]

This thread is fucking shit if truth be told.

[martinjmmac5]

Of course he fucking can and so can the players. How do you think that makes them feel?

as you can see Doc, the good fight is a losing battle

it's not like everybody means to sigh it's a natural reaction, like a ga reflex when we see lucas. i'm not gonna stand there and applaud Lucas leiva onto a pitch.

[se9R.F.L]

We scored with 20 minutes left and took of our 1 remaining striker for lucas leiva and we then attempted to sit back against everton F.C that gerrard goal should have been the base for a 2 or 3 niller, instead it was the base to stop playing football. By taking Torres off we then had no attacking outlet to hold the ball up we were playing on the edge of our own box because there was nothing over the half way line.

I'm not saying he shouldn't have been replaced with another striker but i was glad to see him get out in one piece, in the first half he looked amazing, that run in the first where he took the piss out of half the Everton team was sensational and he'll be winning that player of the year sometime soon mark my words. he's looking frighteningly sharp considering he's been out for so much of the season but as the game went on he was getting frustrated by the ref (as i fucking was) and he tends to try too hard almost when it's not going his way, no bad thing but i was dreading every challenge that came in. like i said wise move to get him off.
we lost ( i meant to type drew but i'll leave that in as thats how it felt) that game because of a silly free kick right at the death our team should have beaten that shower regardless

[mjgill85]

yer, people posting the two squads rafa's and his, houlliers team won the champions league basically. no point having a great squad when he played a 4-6 formation against stoke city.

That was clearly in response to someone saying Houllier bought the better players.

And Kuyt clearly played up front against Stoke and barely came wide or deep. If Gerrard's shot in the last seconds is inches to the right no-one has a problem with the tactics.

[steveeastend]

it's not like everybody means to sigh it's a natural reaction, like a ga reflex when we see lucas. i'm not gonna stand there and applaud Lucas leiva onto a pitch.

Are you serious?

[Dr. Beaker]

Of course he fucking can and so can the players. How do you think that makes them feel?

as you can see Doc, the good fight is a losing battle

Any other manager who makes a substitution followed by a goal a couple of minutes later is hailed as a genius.

[Fat Scouser]

it's not like everybody means to sigh it's a natural reaction, like a ga reflex when we see lucas. i'm not gonna stand there and applaud Lucas leiva onto a pitch.

Why not? He's a Liverpool player. do you want him to come on the pitch full of uncertanty or would you prefer him to come on feeling he has everyone behind him and should give it his all?

We had plenty of shitty players during the glory years, not that I think Lucas is one. And we saved our moans about them for the alehouse and actually encouraged them more than the great players.

You ever heard of a player called Frank Whittington?

[se9R.F.L]

it's not like everybody means to sigh it's a natural reaction, like a ga reflex when we see lucas. i'm not gonna stand there and applaud Lucas leiva onto a pitch.

i bet you applauded him off when he won that pen the other year. Fickle

[PROPER crazyemlyn72]

Hello,

I'm new here, and this is one thread that a newbie like me should avoid like the plague.

My dad is in his 60s and a lifelong pool lunatic, i am in me 30s and i never had a choice

My dad is getting to the end of his tether and is seriously beginning to doubt Rafa, but,

i tell him that we should stick with rafa and give him our best support. It is times like this

that the fans can really make a difference to the team and give the lads a lift. at the end

of the day we are challenging on all fronts, we know we are stumbling a bit at the mo but

we are still there. And we always seem to go on great runs at the end of a season, soooo

we have good possibilities, no?

The one thing that pops up a lot in this argument is "Who else would manage?".

"All our spanish stars would leave with rafa" so the logic being that it is better to stick

with the devil you know rather than to risk the unknown. to be honest thats not really a great reason

to want to keep rafa.....fear of having to start at scratch again.

I feel rafa will do it this year. We have improved year on year, there may be one

step back and then two forward. And for jaysus sake he is doing a tremendous job when

you consider 3 ops in a month or so, and having the most horrible plebs for owners, and

trying to sort his contract and the media constantly looking for a cheap laugh at him.

If I was rafa i would die.

cheers

Emlyn

[lfc_col]

The similarities and the feelings of Houllier's final moments are there to be seen and felt and it's heartbraking.

what a load of crap

[mjgill85]

we started off well and a couple of bad performances and it's feelin like the end of the world. we are in a better position than at the start of probly the last 10 seasons (dnt quote me on that lyk) so optimism isthe best way forward.

Maybe you should take your own advice? Optimism is fun

[John C]

I'll take part in this conversation at the end of the season, when we know what we have achieved, where Rafa has taken us, not just after the half way stage of the campaign, positioned to put a challenge in, and still in Europe. Rehearse your arguments until then, but if you want to execute without the context of this season fully played out, you're crazy.

It's not something you have to be magnanimous or generous about, if you decide to do that.

It's the most simple fucking obligation you have to our manager and our team.

As much as I can see many faults in Rafa, and I'm obviously not alone as most people I that speak to me about it are annoyed by him, I agree that the season needs to be taken in context at the end Whether its 1st or 3rd, a thorough & frank analysis can be appropriate. That won't stop me highlighting issues until the end of the season, but until then be careful what you wish for.

However, I've got to take the opportunity to add that the same applies to Keane. I wish people would stop writing him off and give the man a full season. He deserves a couple full of games here and there to give him the same on-field minutes Berbatov or anyone else gets. How can Keane become a match winner when he's had a bath before the whistle goes.

I also don't agree with the disdain shown to him for being gutted to be substituted in a derby, everyone on this forum would mutter fuck off if they were in his position, particularly as its become a form of humiliation now.

[Stussy]

KOTP

You have to respond to Art Vandelay's point in the first page of this thread to substantiate the credibility of the comparison. I'll paste it here for you:

+++++

In Ged's last two years at this exact point in the season we were 14 and 23 points off the leader respectively.

+++++

KOTP, can you please respond to this, and explain how your comparison has any integrity, or how where we are now, on the 20th January 2009, is in any way comparable with Ged's last days.

I think you have to answer this, to maintain your credibility. Otherwise, you're going to appear kneejerk and spineless, especially when you make slightly hysterical, innacurate and sensationalised comparisons that have no substance like you have in your original post and in the title of the thread.

(And I'm not even mentioning your 'solution' being Mourinho or Capello)

[martinjmmac5]

That was clearly in response to someone saying Houllier bought the better players.

And Kuyt clearly played up front against Stoke and barely came wide or deep. If Gerrard's shot in the last seconds is inches to the right no-one has a problem with the tactics.

just dont think rafa should be given a free ride and be hailed as a footballing genius coz he won the champions league in fortunate circumstances

Are you serious?

no but he isnt good enough is he? and the kop did sigh automatically when they saw him.

Any other manager who makes a substitution followed by a goal a couple of minutes later is hailed as a genius.

the goal would have came no matter what, it was a moment of magic by stevie, then 20 minutes of madness on our part. sat back and didnt have anyone in their half for 20 minutes allowing them to induce a torrent of attacks.

Why not? He's a Liverpool player. do you want him to come on the pitch full of uncertanty or would you prefer him to come on feeling he has everyone behind him and should give it his all?

We had plenty of shitty players during the glory years, not that I think Lucas is one. And we saved our moans about them for the alehouse and actually encouraged them more than the great players.

You ever heard of a player called Frank Whittington?

we are behind him but theres a time when he is lettin the side down, he is useless it would be patronising to fuckin scream and shout his name.
i have saved my moans for the alehouse and rawk, i dont stand there booing and slaggin him off, but i can't bring meself to go fuckin crazy when i see him slipping his alice band on

is he related to dick/richard

[Emo Phillips]

It's mind boggling. We're doing better than we have in nearly two decades, and people want the manager out. WHat bizarre world are we living in. Thank god Shanks wasn't a manger in the modern era.

Well. Fucking. Said.

We've been top of the table for a couple of months, and without our best striker. Now the current European and English champions have overtaken us - but only by a fraction.

Comparisons with Houllier are asinine. There are just as many, if not more, comparisons with Ferguson in 1990 - oh, except Liverpool are miles ahead of where Ferguson got United in his first four years.

[SmallwoodRed]

We are joint top on our good start to the season, we are on a slippery slope thats gonna get more slippery if he doesnt get a grip..... of Lucas' hair and drag him out the ground or at least not put him on to defend in a derby against everton, or put him in central midfield against teams like stoke who are big and kick people round the pitch. Why was mascherano not brought on??? answer me that please WHY???

completely agree he should have brought on mash but that doesnt mean its a slippery slope.
He just made a misjudgement - simple.
But we are joint top of the league whilst in a poor spell of form - however much you micro analyse rafas decisions you still cant deny that.

[Emo Phillips]

KOTP

You have to respond to Art Vandelay's point in the first page of this thread to substantiate the credibility of the comparison. I'll paste it here for you:

+++++

In Ged's last two years at this exact point in the season we were 14 and 23 points off the leader respectively.

+++++

KOTP, can you please respond to this, and explain how your comparison has any integrity, or how where we are now, on the 20th January 2009, is in any way comparable with Ged's last days.

I think you have to answer this, to maintain your credibility. Otherwise, you're going to appear kneejerk and spineless, especially when you make slightly hysterical, innacurate and sensationalised comparisons that have no substance like you have in your original post and in the title of the thread.

(And I'm not even mentioning your 'solution' being Mourinho or Capello)

Hear hear.

Superb point, well made.

We're joint top of the table and yet again doing well in Europe.

The comparisons with Houllier make zero sense.

[liverboy74]

I'm glad we've got Rafa and in no way am i calling for his head on a plate, but what i saw tactically last night completely confuses me.

Someone needs to get a grip and wake this team up when the going gets tough.

[SallyCinnamon]

completely agree he should have brought on mash but that doesnt mean its a slippery slope.
He just made a misjudgement - simple.
But we are joint top of the league whilst in a poor spell of form - however much you micro analyse rafas decisions you still cant deny that.

Masch injured himself during the fucking warm up.

[Cadno]

About 18 months before Houllier went I had the moment where i realised that as good a job as he did he was never going to be the manager to take us to the holy grail of number 19. I've waited a few hours before posting this as at the time i posted about Houllier all I got was abuse and am just expecting the same now. This isnt just a rash thought I've had after last nights disappointment but that hasnt helped, its something that I've been thinking for a while and finally come to the conclusion that as good as Benitez has been, I cant see him ending the wait for number 19.

Rafa has given me and the rest of us some of the greatest moments as Liverpool fans but his constant baffling tactical decisions have finally seen me think this.

Last night Evertons main threat was coming from Anichebe who was starting on the right when we had the ball and cutting in to support cahill when Everton had it, he was causing problems but nothing that was dangerous most of the night until Rafa took Keane off which i support but instead of bringing mascherano on and pushing Gerrard further forward, he opted to bring on Yossi moving kuyt central and yossi on the right. As soon as he did this Moyes saw a potential weakness with yossi being a lot smaller than any of the other wingers we had on during the game and moved Anchiebe over to our right and there left, it came as no suprise that this is where Evertons goal come Yossi was no patch for the pace and raw strength of Anichebe and  in the end his foul brought Evertons goal.

Another one of Rafa's baffling decisions that he makes constantly is his seeming willingness to stick with Lucas who in 18months as far as I can remember has put in 1 good performance against a woeful newcastle. How Rafa can justify bringing him on before Mascherano last night is crazy it wasnt lucas' type of game it was to fast and furious for him he doesnt have a reputation of being a good tackler and that was proven last night when he came on his first impact was to give a free kick away and that continued through his performance.

another baffling decision by Rafa for me was his decision in the summer to bring in Robbie Keane, as good as a player as Keane has been if was never going to work out at Liverpool for him.  Benitez throughtout his managerial career has prefered a 4231 formation which is never going to suit Keane as he cant play as a lone striker and even if he could isnt going to be prefered over Torres,  and secondly to play him in the 4231 formation is then going to mean Gerrard dropping into the defensive mid roll which is then negating one of our main attacking threats.

Overall Rafa has given me some great times as a liverpool fan but i just cant see him bringing number 19 home unfortunately

Only one thing missing in this post... a dig a Kuyt.   That would pretty much have ticked all the boxes.

Rafa will never win the league - Tick
Lucas is the cause of all evil - Tick
Benny is too lightweight etc - Tick
Kuyt is not good enough and Rafa loves him -

[SallyCinnamon]

KOTP

You have to respond to Art Vandelay's point in the first page of this thread to substantiate the credibility of the comparison. I'll paste it here for you:

+++++

In Ged's last two years at this exact point in the season we were 14 and 23 points off the leader respectively.

+++++

KOTP, can you please respond to this, and explain how your comparison has any integrity, or how where we are now, on the 20th January 2009, is in any way comparable with Ged's last days.

I think you have to answer this, to maintain your credibility. Otherwise, you're going to appear kneejerk and spineless, especially when you make slightly hysterical, innacurate and sensationalised comparisons that have no substance like you have in your original post and in the title of the thread.

(And I'm not even mentioning your 'solution' being Mourinho or Capello)

I'm looking forward to his reply.

[martinjmmac5]

not at one point have i said get rid of rafa, i have just criticised some of his absolutely crazy decisions and the mentality he has inground in the players, we score then just try and sit on the edge of the box defending, hull we went 2-0 down played great for 20 minutes scored 2 then took our foot off the gas, it was as if he is in the mindset to secure a draw in every match and then if we sneak a goal to win it then super

[Fat Scouser]

is he related to dick/richard

He might be. I don't know. I don't know who the fuck he is. The point is, neither do you, but do you know Bobby Graham or Ian Ross?

[mjgill85]

just dont think rafa should be given a free ride

You're right, he shouldn't.

He's made mistakes and he frustrates me at times; but generally I'll let them slide (not that there's much I can do anyway!) because I genuinely believe we're on the right path with Rafa. If he stays, has a solid budget and gets most of his targets, I'm positive we'll win the league under his reign in the next 2 and a bit years (3 seasons inclusive). Call it loyalty, blind faith or delusion- I don't mind- but it's what I believe.

Sure there'll be annoyances at starting XI's, substitutions, signings etc. and I'll voices my concerns/frustrations to friends, family and random people on the internet, but overall I'll take those hits because of my belief in what he'll achieve for us.

[SmallwoodRed]

can people sayin we are joint top of the league stop sayin it in the belief that its true! if the season was to end the same way we would be 2nd!!! not joint league winners talk about spin!!!!

Yeah and you would be posting a thread about how Rafas doing a Houllier and will never win the league because we lost it on goal difference!!

[martinjmmac5]

Masch injured himself during the fucking warm up.

well he should have threw sammy lee on before the brazilian tranny

[Stussy]

so we can't discuss liverpool until the end of the season, no point in having rawk then is there, everything is predicted in life, crossing the road is under a prediction that you wont get hit by a car. you leave for work with the prediction that you will get there at a certain time, so to discuss how we think we will do is wrong then???

You'll only know what to truthfully say about crossing the road when you've actually crossed it, won't you? You won't know if you've done it right when you're still in the middle of the road, traffic speeding past in all directions, will you?

We're still in the middle of crossing that road mate.

You can talk all you want, but you won't have definitive context until it's done. Then you can really talk about what's right and what's wrong. With half the journey left, you're making definitive comments on Rafa and our season, even though the comparison with Houllier's last days is hysterical nonsense? You're reciting the death rites on our season, preparing for the funeral, when we're just half way gone, and in a living, decent position?

You should all be renamed the impatient undertakers or the gravediggers or something.

[Keeno2003]

Its funny you know, this time last year we were well out of the title race, not even near. at the end of the season, the majority on here said they wanted to be involved, not to necessarily win it, but to be involved. I think its safe to say we are.

We were top of the league for seven weeks and have been momentarily knocked off top spot by one of the best teams in the world. Yeah we could be miles clear by now, probably should be, but I guarantee United & Chelsea fans will be saying the same. If you thought we were going to stay top from November until the end of the season then quite frankly you were deluded, was never going to happen in this league.

We have a manager in place who has brought in some quality players and I'll sit here and say that at times his decisions frustrate me immensely. but you cant argue with where we are at this point in the season, we would all have taken it at the start of the season. I think the point im trying to make is have a little faith in our manager, he does know what he's doing, he has been there before, we havent. we are in a good position, we were never going to run away with this league, there will always be road blocks.

Yet we are strongly involved in all the major competitions, and that is down to the manager. You may disagree with his decisions, but this is a very experienced and successful man and, quite frankly, has a far better football knowledge than all of us on here, no matter how expert some believe themselves to be.

Im not saying never doubt/question the manager, but take a look solely at our position, regardless of any other aspect past or present and ask yourself this question, are we in a situation where sacking a manager would be at all logical?

[Fat Scouser]

A matter of days ago, this place was full of people saying how shite Masch had been all season, how he offered us fuck all going forward, and shouldn't be played against the little clubs at home

[mjgill85]

Its funny you know, this time last year we were well out of the title race, not even near. at the end of the season, the majority on here said they wanted to be involved, not to necessarily win it, but to be involved. I think its safe to say we are.

Indeed: http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=223545.0

[PETERC1992]

yer, people posting the two squads rafa's and his, houlliers team won the champions league basically. no point having a great squad when he played a 4-6 formation against stoke city.

shite..... It was Houlliers squad tht one more or less but if houllier was in chrage for the year he wouldn have won he champions league

One reason tht i believe benitez is on the best managers in teh world was because he won the champions league with  a squad that wasnt fit to make it to the quarter finals

The man pulled off a mircale

[martinjmmac5]

You'll only know what to truthfully say about crossing the road when you've actually crossed it, won't you? You won't know if you've done it right when you're still in the middle of the road, traffic speeding past in all directions, will you?

We're still in the middle of crossing that road mate.

You can talk all you want, but you won't have definitive context until it's done. Then you can really talk about what's right and what's wrong. With half the journey left, you're making definitive comments on Rafa and our season, even though the comparison with Houllier's last days is hysterical nonsense? You're reciting the death rites on our season, preparing for the funeral, when we're just half way gone, and in a living, decent position?

You should all be renamed the impatient undertakers or the gravediggers or something.

i'm not i am just discussin what i think is wrong at the minute and why i think it is goind this way, by no means am i condemning rafa to be sacked, i am simply stating that his decisions are terrible and baffling at times, i was also saying if you read the post i said that everytime we cross the road we have to predict if we will make it to the other side we don't just run across with no thought, fair enough it will judge itself at the end of the season when it could be too late or we could all be pissed in town for 3 weeks in may with the prem secured. surely as fans we have the right to have a bit of a moan and discuss what we think is wrong with the club on an internet messageboard.

[MAL05]

While I don't always agree with Rafa's decisions, he did nothing at all wrong last night.  I was made up with the starting 11, been crying out for Keane and Torres to get a start together, I hope he sticks with it because it did not look its best last night but will get there.

He took Keane off for Yossi; agreed Keane was not having his best game and Yossi has been effective lately.  He took Torres off for Lucas; agreed Torres was knackered and Masch was injured and we wanted to protect the lead so it had to be Lucas, who I fully believe will come good.  He is still young but has the quality.

The reason they got back into the game?  This was down to the players, as soon as we scored they dropped deeper, even Gerrard himself, this I noticed.  Why did we not just carry on as we had in the second half and take the game to them?

This you will have to ask the players, not Rafa.  He is the best we have had for a long time and WILL bring it home, maybe not this season but he will.

[royhendo]

Plague of the zombies Stussy. Plague of the fucking zombies.