Topic: Rafa's "Houllier Moment"

[skipper757]

Fat Scouser, you really should post more of your football opinions, really.  I'm a young'un but frankly, I can be a sentimental fool like you say you are.  I watch a lot of other sports and I want just about every one of the players on my teams to succeed.  I want the coaches/managers to succeed even when things don't look rosy.  I just can't help it at times.  I really want Rafa to win the title.  He's done so much for the club in recent times that I have to stand by him with things go bad.

We are in a great position right now.  We all wish we could've had a few more points, but aren't we challenging?  We are angry with the results right now when only a few years ago we couldn't even get 60+ points at the end of the season?  Rafa's turned us into a huge force on the pitch again.  Will he win the title?  I don't know.  Only time will tell.  So why is it that quite a few have turned against Rafa at this crucial juncture?  The team needs support right now and we are going to start jumping down each other's throats?

I understand criticism.  Supporters to have that right.  But people keeping saying that Rafa can't win the league, but the season isn't over.  It isn't.  Right now, we could all turn on Rafa and say he can't win the league and that Houllier is better or whatever.  It won't change anything for the positive.  We can't sack the manager now, can we?  If Rafa does leave, it'll be at the end of the season, so I wouldn't focus on the "Rafa can't win the league argument" because there is nothing we can do about it at this point.

And martinjmmac5, Fat Scouser can keep referring to Shankly because he was around back then.  You can't hold that against him.  Also, why not clap Lucas?  I desperately want all our players and coaches (unless they are true c*nts like Diouf) to succeed.

-I don't think Keane's had a good season.
-I don't think Degen will really come good for us.
-I don't think Dossena has a huge long term future ahead here.
-I don't think Lucas will ever be as influential as our current CM's right now.

But you know what, I want them all to succeed.  I was so made up that Kuyt scored some important goals in the CL last year because you can see what it meant to him.  Also, there was a lot of fun among the supporters with comments such as "Dirk, I want your babies,""Dirk, I love you, you ugly twat!"  Really, it was nice to see a player work his socks off and come through like that and getting support from fans who may or may not have been fond of him before.

Like I mentioned at the beginning, I'm a sentimental fool when it comes to our players and manager.  So Fat Scouser and others, here is one young'un that will have time for the comments and thoughts of others.  Because that's what being a supporter of the biggest club in the world is all about.

[keyo]

I don't care about losses. I would gladly have lost more if it meant that some of the draws became wins.

i don't understand this "win one lose one instead of drawing 2" argument that seems to have become prevalent.......what makes anyone honestly believe that a different approach would actually have that impact?  a more risky approach could just a s easily result in us losing those 2 games.....and i'm sure everyone would be really understanding about that ffs

try another scenario....draw 3, 3 points.....win 1 lose 2 3 points, same result......which one is the more acceptable?  which one will have the fans hitting the managers eject button?

deal with facts.....the draws are disappointing and a number will be viewed as 2 points dropped, it is now up to the manager and the team to pick up as many points as possible in the next 17 games....51 points would be nice, but honestly, when was the last time anyone did that (no draws or losses)?  so we may be chasing the mancs, but at least we are within striking distance, rafa will ultimately be judged on our position at the end of the season and hopefully that judgement will be a good one

[Illmatic]

While I wouldn’t call this Rafa's "Houllier Moment" I can certainly understand the frustrations of many on here as we seem to flatter to deceive more often than not what we really need is to challenge, be no more than a couple of points off the top with a few games to go. Recent history suggests we need to get close to wining before we actually do it. I still think we can win the title this season. However, for that to happen the manager needs to be more positive and the players need to believe they can do it.

[keyo]

Therein lys the difference of opinions, some will argue Biscan was brilliant - I'm on Rafa's side on this subject since he let him at the very first opportunity.
Amongst a group of people with a common desire and love for a single source, there is a gulf of opinion as to whether this season is satisfactory or not. Currently no one is correct because MU may contine to drop points making it easy for us to take the PL, or we may continue to draw at home making the season worse than anticipated.
 
Plenty of footy to play yet, which also means there's plenty of opportunity's for both Rafa & Keane to show they are winners or also-rans. Contributing to an exciting December now needs a bit more guile to become a winner.

i'm not sure you will find many who support an overall "Biscan=brilliant" hypothesis...... "Biscan=cult hero" yes, but that is a different thing altogether, as is Biscan was brilliant against Deportivo, or Biscan was brilliant against Juve

[RK7]

For those who asked.

Rafa vs Houllier

For me these are both GREAT managers in their own right, I have as some know posted claiming IMO that Houllier is the better manager.
Some have thrown back the predictable Rafa won 2 titles in  Spain, but choose not to mention the 3 Titles Gerard won In France.

All I ask is understand this is my opinion, their is no right or wrong awnser.

                    Houllier                                                             Rafa

Lg Titles           3                                                                     2
Dom cups         3                                                                     1
Uefa cups         1                                                                     1
Cl cup               0                                                                     1
Uefa sc             1                                                                     1

Lg pos.              4th,3rd,5th                                                  5th,4th,3rd,4th
                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
money spent    £126,000000                                                  £171000000
Recouped         £56000000                                                     £90000000

Note Houllier was behind the development of Frances Youth policy that saw him manage France to victory in the U19 championships 2 years later France were world champions and Gerards contribution was recognised as being vital to this victory.

[Karthik]

For those who asked.

Rafa vs Houllier

For me these are both GREAT managers in their own right, I have as some know posted claiming IMO that Houllier is the better manager.
Some have thrown back the predictable Rafa won 2 titles in  Spain, but choose not to mention the 3 Titles Gerard won In France.

All I ask is understand this is my opinion, their is no right or wrong awnser.

                    Houllier                                                             Rafa

Lg Titles           3                                                                     2
Dom cups         3                                                                     1
Uefa cups         1                                                                     1
Cl cup               0                                                                     1
Uefa sc             1                                                                     1

Lg pos.              4th,3rd,5th                                                  5th,4th,3rd,4th
                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
money spent    £126,000000                                                  £171000000
Recouped         £56000000                                                     £90000000

Note Houllier was behind the development of Frances Youth policy that saw him manage France to victory in the U19 championships 2 years later France were world champions and Gerards contribution was recognised as being vital to this victory.

Houlliers titles came after he left us and went to lyon so it doesnt count in the argument you are trying to make as you dont know what rafa might win in the future. Anyway where did the topic divert so much from the original post didnt read through all the pages

[The Bill Hicks Appreciation Society]

People don't mention Houllier's league titles in france for 2 reasons, one because the french league isn't very good and two he took over a team at the height of their powers, he did well maintaining it but hardly comparable to what rafa did at valencia... not sure about his PSG title, don't know any history to the team.

[DangerScouse]

Let's not forget Houllier took over a Lyon team that had won 4 sucessive titles and made a shambles of attemtping to qualify for the world cup in '94 when managing  France. Rafa also took over at the height of an inflationary transfer market. Just out of interest under who's spending did you include Cisse's transfer?

[LFCGeezer]

Doesn't the word supporters exist in some peoples vocabulary anymore?

[Garstonite]

He's done so much for the club in recent times that I have to stand by him with things go bad.

Nail on head. Lock thread, lock board, lock forum, lock Internet.

[MAL05]

Average amount of points to win the Premier league during Houlier's time was 86.2.  During Rafa's time, 90.5.

Can we really compare?

[Fat Scouser]

Does anybody think he could seriously leave?

Yes, lad. Of course he could. He's got previous.

I honestly think the only reason he's still here is that he's such a stubborn bastard. People use that against him. But if it wasn't for that trait, I think he'd have already said fuck this melarkey and done one. But he's on a mission and won't give in. But will he stay like that?

His detractors also keep banging on about closed doors. But none of us really know how bad it is behind them closed doors. But the little we do know - which we only know because he let us know - is bad enough.

Ask yourself this, would you keep going to work under these circumstances when you could walk into practically any top job in Europe?

I believe Rafa when he says how much he loves us fans, the club and the city, but I'm not foolish enough to think that's what keeps him here. It's the weather.

But seriously, would you want your kids growing up in a completely alien culture and way of life? Would you want to give up your own culture and way of life? Would you want to be pulling out your tripes and constantly get leathered by the likes of Paul Merson and all the other genius punters? More importantly would you like to be pulling your tripes out for people that you want to bring success to, and then watch them turn on you and treat you no better than the media?

I could go on but you get my drift. And to answer one of me own questions, if I thought the very people I'm trying for, and making sacrifices for to do it, I would ask meself... Is there any point?

And reading some of the stuff in here, and hearing the moans, groans a booing at Anfield - me answer would definetely be Is It Fuck.

[RK7]

Let's not forget Houllier took over a Lyon team that had won 4 sucessive titles and made a shambles of attemtping to qualify for the world cup in '94 when managing  France. Rafa also took over at the height of an inflationary transfer market. Just out of interest under who's spending did you include Cisse's transfer?

Houlliers.

[RK7]

Houlliers titles came after he left us and went to lyon so it doesnt count in the argument you are trying to make as you dont know what rafa might win in the future. Anyway where did the topic divert so much from the original post didnt read through all the pages

1 of the titles was before he joined us

[Jagdip]

Last night I started a Sack Rafa thread for a laugh. Why don't you have the bollacks to just call this it, say what you really think - Sack Rafa - and be done with it?

You are entitled to your opinion. You shouldn't just be leathered for it. but you should have the courage of your convictions and be straight about it.

 

The fisherman is now the prey!

With regards to Rafael Benitez and Gerard Houllier, I feel a big difference between the two at similar positions in their reign. Our top players at the time, Owen and Gerrard, were losing faith in the managers' abilities and pondering their future at the club. With Rafa, there is no such suggestion. Torres and Gerrard, are both here to stay and help us fight for silverware.

I also understand people feel annoyed by Rafa's stubborness, but one of his main traits - he has managed to change. He did not rotate as much as the beginning of the season as he has done in previous seasons.

Rafa is an astute, pragmatic scholar who, with greater time at the helm, will lead to increasing probability of landing number 19.

I feel, this season, in a strange way, with opportunities being missed yet the title still within our grasp, The Liverpool Way under Rafa, will continue and we will win number 19, when our hopes seem diminished.

I agree with regards to certain decisions, the signing of Robbie Keane, but I am still giving him time to come good, because he hasn't been given the licence to play alongside Torres AND Gerrard (in an attacking role) which will also accomodate Reira, Mascherano and Xabi.

I also agree with Mascherano coming on for Keane and pushing Gerrard forward, it was something I stated many times in the 'in-game' thread BUT Rafa is our manager, it is his conscious that has to deal with such mistakes. For that reason, I support him whole-heartedly because unlike Houllier, he can continue to take us forward and win many more European Trophies and end the quest for the PL.

Houllier was struggling to keep us in the UEFA Cup, Rafa has given us a new found belief in Europe, something that has been missing for over 20 years.

[Fat Scouser]

Doesn't the word supporters exist in some peoples vocabulary anymore?

75% per cent of this countries population now say they support a football club. Obviously the more successful you are the more you attract. Thankfully most of them will never make it to Anfield. But that's still a huge problem.

Supporters are becoming a thing of the past. They should just call them consumers and be done with it. they aren't there to support. they are there to be entertained and enjoy the experience. A lot of them have never even watched a full game on Telly. They watch highlights. They wonder - like some daft c*nt in here did to me - why we don't buy players like Koncheski cos he can score great goals. They seen one on Sky.

And that's not just me spouting off. It's all - as Rafa would say - Fact!

[Jagdip]

75% per cent of this countries population now say they support a football club.

I remember asking a friend in college who he supported, he replied 'Man U but I don't cry when they lose'.

Well, I'm passionate as fuck about Liverpool but have never cried. Such a reply demonstrates, 'I know fuck all about Man U but they are top so I'll go with them... But don't ask me any questions because as I don't cry when they lose, I am allowed to know fuck all'

[Super MAC]

yes he has taken the squad forward but i don't feel he cant take it any further forward,

So at this present time we have a team sitting joint top with the mancs having lost one match in the final minute all season with it all to play for and you are implying that Rafa should go?? A man who has brought players of a far superior calibre to the club than we have had for a long time and put us in a position where we are serious contenders for the league for the first time in almost 20 years? A man who continues to be the poor relation when it comes to financial clout when compared to the mancs or Chelsea?? The fact is that even in the Dalglish era ...you may not be familiar with it given it pre dated Sky Sports....to take 4 points out of 6 against Everton was a good return....and in very few seasons was a league won at a canter without any dips and challenges met along the way. The fact is we are still very much ion this race with Rafa leading from the front, if you haven't got the bollocks to take the ups and downs along the way without the hysterical reaction fuck off and follow celebrity come dancing.

[jckliew]

Only Houliiers moment is operation.....of the body.....methinks its playing tricks on their heads....

[Redeye]

It's not right to compare Ged with Rafa.

There's a great passage in Carra's book where he describes how Ged shot Paul Ince down in utter flames after a cup defeat to ManU. He describes how he and Owen left that meeting thinking "What a manager we've got here!"

He also relates how Ged changed after his illness, how he was never the same man - how he never had the same authority.

Both managers gave their all, in their different ways to LFC; both had success and we should be glad that both agreed to come here and write a part of our history.

[Fat Scouser]

I think that's what's wrong with loads of them.... celebrity come dancing, big brother, x factor etc....  they can't vote Rafa off so they come in here whingeing.

PS Nice avitar. Me eyes aren't what they used to be but that's Kevin Mc, yeah?

A most under rated footballer and mostly forgotten (not even known by loads of today's beauts).

[MAL05]

FS: just to change the subject slightly. Sounds like you have seen managers including and since Shankly, so, would Rafa get in your top 5?  Not just talking of silverware, but the whole picture i.e. what they done for the club as a whole from how they found it, players they brought through / in etc.

Thats if you can be arsed!!

[Redeye]

Oh, and Supermac, you've got that spot on!

[KOTP]

think majority of the posts in this thread have been very good no matter what the individuals view have been bit disappointed that the last few bits have seen to be a contest between houllier and rafa this is not what i certainly intended the thread to become, as much as i wanted houllier gone long before the end i certainly will never forget what he did for the club and the incredible achievements he done in bringing us forward.

the same i can say for rafa i will continue to support the team 100percent at all games and hope to be proved 100percent wrong but can we stop the slagging of and comparing who is best as i feel they will both be remembered what ever happens as very good liverpool managers

[The Bill Hicks Appreciation Society]

Mal since then we've had Shanks, Paisley, Fagan, Dalglish, Moran, Souness, Moran, Evans, Houllier

if Rafa didn't make top 5 out of 8 that'd be worrying, especially a top 8 inc Souness (1 FA Cup) Moran (caretaker), Evans (1 league cup)

[KOTP]

So at this present time we have a team sitting joint top with the mancs having lost one match in the final minute all season with it all to play for and you are implying that Rafa should go?? A man who has brought players of a far superior calibre to the club than we have had for a long time and put us in a position where we are serious contenders for the league for the first time in almost 20 years? A man who continues to be the poor relation when it comes to financial clout when compared to the mancs or Chelsea?? The fact is that even in the Dalglish era ...you may not be familiar with it given it pre dated Sky Sports....to take 4 points out of 6 against Everton was a good return....and in very few seasons was a league won at a canter without any dips and challenges met along the way. The fact is we are still very much ion this race with Rafa leading from the front, if you haven't got the bollocks to take the ups and downs along the way without the hysterical reaction fuck off and follow celebrity come dancing.

yes and i am not doubting that rafa has brought us into the best position we have been in for 20 years or the calibare of players he has rbought in i just have a feeling that he cant take us to number 19, as has been pointed out to me by others could anyone else maybe not with the current financial situation at the club, as for following come dancing no thanks i wont.

and can you stop sayin we are joint top of the league or as i said earlier on are you still celebrating us being joint league winners in 89 with arsenal?

[Fat Scouser]

FS: just to change the subject slightly. Sounds like you have seen managers including and since Shankly, so, would Rafa get in your top 5?  Not just talking of silverware, but the whole picture i.e. what they done for the club as a whole from how they found it, players they brought through / in etc.

Thats if you can be arsed!!

Lad, I really know fuck all. Rafa's forgot more than I'll ever know in the time of a blink.
But where would I place him after all the manager's I've seen.... 3rd.
Shankly/Paisley joint best. In all honesty Bob was the better but me heart belongs to Bill. But I think Rafa could even join them in the best ever category, if only he is given the time and money to do so. And I don't mean unlimited dough. I mean enough to buy the players he wants. I honestly belive he can not only get us back to winning the league regularily, he can also leave behind the sort of legacy Bill and Bob left and we can go on winning for years.

[RK7]

and can you stop sayin we are joint top of the league or as i said earlier on are you still celebrating us being joint league winners in 89 with arsenal?

Your right, after Fulham win 3.0 we will be outright top.

[KOTP]

Lad, I really know fuck all. Rafa's forgot more than I'll ever know in the time of a blink.
But where would I place him after all the manager's I've seen.... 3rd.
Shankly/Paisley joint best. In all honesty Bob was the better but me heart belongs to Bill. But I think Rafa could even join them in the best ever category, if only he is given the time and money to do so. And I don't mean unlimited dough. I mean enough to buy the players he wants. I honestly belive he can not only get us back to winning the league regularily, he can also leave behind the sort of legacy Bill and Bob left and we can go on winning for years.

i gotta say your reasoning is very good and is even making me rethink my position but you say he can only do it if given the resources unfortunatley i dont think he will get them well certainly from the current owners or with the current financial situation any new owner,

as for debating the best ever manager thats another we could go around years debating and never come to a conclusion!! not being born till 1979 i cant realy comment to much as never saw either first hand but from what i have seen, read and heard i would just go for bob but then again i could easily go for bill, but havin said that i think without each other both wouldnt have been so great

[farawayred]

For those who asked.

Rafa vs Houllier

For me these are both GREAT managers in their own right, I have as some know posted claiming IMO that Houllier is the better manager.
Some have thrown back the predictable Rafa won 2 titles in  Spain, but choose not to mention the 3 Titles Gerard won In France.

All I ask is understand this is my opinion, their is no right or wrong awnser.

                    Houllier                                                             Rafa

Lg Titles           3                                                                     2
Dom cups         3                                                                     1
Uefa cups         1                                                                     1
Cl cup               0                                                                     1
Uefa sc             1                                                                     1

Lg pos.              4th,3rd,5th                                                  5th,4th,3rd,4th
                                                                                                                                                                                                                             
money spent    £126,000000                                                  £171000000
Recouped         £56000000                                                     £90000000

Note Houllier was behind the development of Frances Youth policy that saw him manage France to victory in the U19 championships 2 years later France were world champions and Gerards contribution was recognised as being vital to this victory.

WOW, what a beautiful way to use statistics in support of a biased opinion, regardless how far-fetched it can be...

Houllier was a good manager, but will never be the manager Rafa can be. No, the sun doesn't shine out of you know where, but Rafa can be that manager.

To start with the titles, in La Liga a team outside of Real Madrid and Barcelona is highly unlikely to to win the title, much like Lyon in France (although not so much anymore). Rafa's 2 titles came with such a team that no one gave a chance. In comparison, Houllier's first title with PSG was nicked from Bordeaux (credit to him), when Bordeaux was the team to beat before and after him. However, PSG was always there pushing! The equivalent is like Real stealing the Barca title a few years back, when Barca needed 2 points from the last 3 games but only managed to draw 1. Houllier's other 2 titles came with a team that won it FOUR TIMES (in April!) BEFORE he went there, and are on the way to win it this year too. I can't give him that kind of credit for building the team and winning the titles; only that he didn't screw up.

Houllier was an excellent cup-game manager, I give you that. But so is Rafa. I'm not going into the semantics of counting cups and which one weighs how much; I think we can all agree with this simple statement and leave it like that.

Regarding the team, I think Houllier is the better man-manager, but Rafa is the better team-builder. Houllier seemed to be able to get more from people with little or no potential, and maybe that's why he was signing such ( couldn't resist...). And Rafa also has his share of disappointments. I'm not going into that in detail either, but I think that most would agree that the current team is better relative to the other teams around now than it was in Houllier's time.

And I'll reveal a little secret about Houllier as a manager, he cannot push a team past the finish line; he lacks that quality to drive the last yard. He is solely to blame for France not qualifying for the WC1994 exactly because of stupid decisions in the last minutes, and never had the guts to admit it. (I can give you all the details why, if you are interested.) Rafa, on the other hand, has shown glimpses of that (playing with 2 defenders!) and I'm sure he'll go all-out when necessary; it just seems that he's willing to wait longer than most of us, and he appears to be too conservative at the moment. If he overcomes that fear of losing (or whatever you call it) he can become a really great manager. Houllier never will. That's why Director of Football suits him best (he really knows how to develop youth talent, organizations and facilities).

[Super MAC]

I think that's what's wrong with loads of them.... celebrity come dancing, big brother, x factor etc....  they can't vote Rafa off so they come in here whingeing.

PS Nice avitar. Me eyes aren't what they used to be but that's Kevin Mc, yeah?

A most under rated footballer and mostly forgotten (not even known by loads of today's beauts).

Cheers mate...Kevin Mc indeed kept us in the game 1st half 86 cup final.


[/quote]

[Super MAC]

yes and i am not doubting that rafa has brought us into the best position we have been in for 20 years or the calibare of players he has rbought in i just have a feeling that he cant take us to number 19, as has been pointed out to me by others could anyone else maybe not with the current financial situation at the club, as for following come dancing no thanks i wont.

and can you stop sayin we are joint top of the league or as i said earlier on are you still celebrating us being joint league winners in 89 with arsenal?

Hand on heart mate I really think you are splitting hairs there or does the fact that we are 2nd (on goal difference) mean that its ok to get shut of the best manager we have had since Dalglish?

[Fat Scouser]

i gotta say your reasoning is very good and is even making me rethink my position but you say he can only do it if given the resources unfortunatley i dont think he will get them well certainly from the current owners or with the current financial situation any new owner,

as for debating the best ever manager thats another we could go around years debating and never come to a conclusion!! not being born till 1979 i cant realy comment to much as never saw either first hand but from what i have seen, read and heard i would just go for bob but then again i could easily go for bill, but havin said that i think without each other both wouldnt have been so great

I told you you'd agree with me in the end.
Fact is, any manager coming in would have the same resources - probably even less - than Rafa.
But the thing is, he is not asking for sheds full of dosh. I'm convinced of what he will do. I could be wrong. I usually am. but he should be given the time to fuck up if he's going to. Then I'll be first in the que to call for his head

[RK7]

WOW, what a beautiful way to use statistics in support of a biased opinion, regardless how far-fetched it can be...

Houllier was a good manager, but will never be the manager Rafa can be. No, the sun doesn't shine out of you know where, but Rafa can be that manager.

To start with the titles, in La Liga a team outside of Real Madrid and Barcelona is highly unlikely to to win the title, much like Lyon in France (although not so much anymore). Rafa's 2 titles came with such a team that no one gave a chance. In comparison, Houllier's first title with PSG was nicked from Bordeaux (credit to him), when Bordeaux was the team to beat before and after him. However, PSG was always there pushing! The equivalent is like Real stealing the Barca title a few years back, when Barca needed 2 points from the last 3 games but only managed to draw 1. Houllier's other 2 titles came with a team that won it FOUR TIMES (in April!) BEFORE he went there, and are on the way to win it this year too. I can't give him that kind of credit for building the team and winning the titles; only that he didn't screw up.

Houllier was an excellent cup-game manager, I give you that. But so is Rafa. I'm not going into the semantics of counting cups and which one weighs how much; I think we can all agree with this simple statement and leave it like that.

Regarding the team, I think Houllier is the better man-manager, but Rafa is the better team-builder. Houllier seemed to be able to get more from people with little or no potential, and maybe that's why he was signing such ( couldn't resist...). And Rafa also has his share of disappointments. I'm not going into that in detail either, but I think that most would agree that the current team is better relative to the other teams around now than it was in Houllier's time.

And I'll reveal a little secret about Houllier as a manager, he cannot push a team past the finish line; he lacks that quality to drive the last yard. He is solely to blame for France not qualifying for the WC1994 exactly because of stupid decisions in the last minutes, and never had the guts to admit it. (I can give you all the details why, if you are interested.) Rafa, on the other hand, has shown glimpses of that (playing with 2 defenders!) and I'm sure he'll go all-out when necessary; it just seems that he's willing to wait longer than most of us, and he appears to be too conservative at the moment. If he overcomes that fear of losing (or whatever you call it) he can become a really great manager. Houllier never will. That's why Director of Football suits him best (he really knows how to develop youth talent, organizations and facilities).

Good points, I would agree with a lot of that but not all.

[KOTP]

I told you you'd agree with me in the end.
Fact is, any manager coming in would have the same resources - probably even less - than Rafa.
But the thing is, he is not asking for sheds full of dosh. I'm convinced of what he will do. I could be wrong. I usually am. but he should be given the time to fuck up if he's going to. Then I'll be first in the que to call for his head

but how much time though as i remember from being here under the houllier years when i posted a similar thing in late 01 early 02 after we had just won the treble and people where sayin the same in ged we trust give him time even in the april/may of when he left people where still saying that.

i just honestly feel that some fans will stick with the manager no matter what the position is at that time. maybe i am just being contrary and goin the opposite way but how much more time is more when do you start sayin enough is enough?

[Fat Scouser]

Fuck I wish I could sleep but seeing I can't and seeing I've got fuck all else to do.... it used to be that you started going in The Boy's Pen, and then you graduated to The Kop. As you got older, you fucked off into the stands and let the new blood in. This has long gone. Kid's now get their education from Soccer am. There is no patientce anymore.

I'm not that old. I'm 51. But the world, and football, has changed immensly since I started going to the match in 1965. the thing is though, the time it takes to build a succesful team and a lasting legacy hasn't. Well, in fact, it has. It's harder now if anything.
Therefore, Rafa must be given that time or mark my words... we will be many titles behind Man United before we get to this position again.

[cowtownred]

I can't be arsed reading all 14 pages.  But I'll try to answer the OP.

KOTP, am I right in thinking your question regards can Benitez take us further...  when you had your Damascus road experience with Houllier (whenever it was you went from Saul to Paul, I've forgotten when you saw the vision)... for me it was Southgate in November 02... but I digress

Yes is the answer.

I'll list the positives and negatives, but I know nobody is slightly arsed, so I won't bother. But trust me, the balance sheet will turn out well positive.

Tell you what, answer this one KOTP or anyone else, for curiosity value..  Whom do you consider the top 5 British managers ever, being fair like...

Surely Shanks, Busby, Stein, Paisley, Ferguson, Clough, Robson, would be the shortlist?

In their first 4 years in charge.... how would Benitez compare to these legends?  Get on yer googles and come back to that question.


(But no bugger will answer, cos as Fats says they all have a quick dig then fuck off)

Mindyou, if it is confirmed Rafa bought that Keane guy, for exorbitant dosh, and for a geriatric to boot.... I'm in the Houllier/Diouf camp.

[Fat Scouser]

but how much time though as i remember from being here under the houllier years when i posted a similar thing in late 01 early 02 after we had just won the treble and people where sayin the same in ged we trust give him time even in the april/may of when he left people where still saying that.

i just honestly feel that some fans will stick with the manager no matter what the position is at that time. maybe i am just being contrary and goin the opposite way but how much more time is more when do you start sayin enough is enough?

Like I said, I thought sacking Ged was wrong at the time. I thought he would turn it round. I was wrong. I admit that now, but I also learned my lesson.

As for the time I'd give Rafa, I'd give him at least another 3 seasons. If it was blatantly obvious by then that he would never make that final leap into champions I would get shut.

But then it's not really a fair question. I don't know what's going on behind closed doors. Tell you one thing, when he is finally gone, I can't wait to read what he says about it.

[Fat Scouser]

From my life time, I'd even put Revie on that list. But I'm desperate to see Keane make it. When rumours of signing him surfaced, I hoped to fuck it was wrong. Like I'd always wished when he was linked to us in times before that. but once he joined that was that... one of us. and I'll always back him unless he starts carrying on like Collymore, Kewell and Pennant. 

[KOTP]

I can't be arsed reading all 14 pages.  But I'll try to answer the OP.

KOTP, am I right in thinking your question regards can Benitez take us further...  when you had your Damascus road experience with Houllier (whenever it was you went from Saul to Paul, I've forgotten when you saw the vision)... for me it was Southgate in November 02... but I digress

Yes is the answer.

I'll list the positives and negatives, but I know nobody is slightly arsed, so I won't bother. But trust me, the balance sheet will turn out well positive.

Tell you what, answer this one KOTP or anyone else, for curiosity value..  Whom do you consider the top 5 British managers ever, being fair like...

Surely Shanks, Busby, Stein, Paisley, Ferguson, Clough, Robson, would be the shortlist?

In their first 4 years in charge.... how would Benitez compare to these legends?  Get on yer googles and come back to that question.


(But no bugger will answer, cos as Fats says they all have a quick dig then fuck off)

Mindyou, if it is confirmed Rafa bought that Keane guy, for exorbitant dosh, and for a geriatric to boot.... I'm in the Houllier/Diouf camp.

yep you are right in what the question relates to as i have said i aint tryin to compare them. the time i started to doubt houllier was late 01/early 02 just after the treble when i saw no real progress in style or performance.

and yes benitez in his first four years compares extremely favourable to the manager you have mentioned who i would put up in my great list, suppose these days we come to expect things quicker mainly due to media and from what seems like large sums of money being spent maybe its just the product of the years i have been brought up in although i have tried at most to avoid that but i must begin to qustion myself over that