Author Topic: Rafa's "Houllier Moment" (Read 67353 times)

the jesus · « **Reply #200 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:36:28 pm »

Quote from: Brentie on January 20, 2009, 05:34:56 pm

Right here goes then...

If we fade away this season and end up way away from a title challenge, I want him gone.

Should he muster up a challenge this year, give him a 2 year extension to his contract.

That isn't unreasonable,

What would constitute a challenge, still in it in March,April last game ?

fudge · « **Reply #201 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:37:03 pm »

I find it repugnant that we're even having this discussion now, with our best chance since we last won it and a team littered with stars of Rafa's choosing.

To be honest it this sort of knee jerk view and lack of any sort of long term approach that will undermine us for number 19.

The nervousness & negativity is all pervasive and you can see its virtually paralysed our crowd, away days what was always pretty much guaranteed are regularly damp squibs.

amir87 · « **Reply #202 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:37:24 pm »

Quote from: Brentie on January 20, 2009, 05:34:56 pm

Right here goes then...

If we fade away this season and end up way away from a title challenge, I want him gone.

Should he muster up a challenge this year, give him a 2 year extension to his contract.

Fair enough.
Now who would you like to come in if it doesn't work out this season?

Dr Cornwallis · « **Reply #203 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:37:31 pm »

Quote from: walshys_mullet on January 20, 2009, 05:24:08 pm

Every team sets their stall at Anfield, we need to put them under pressure till they crack and when they do we need to maintain it till the end.

As much as possible anyway.

How to beat shit-house teams at Anfield? Follow the Mancs...
Pressure the team, attack them from the first second and never let their shit-house manager get to use his majestic shit-house spoiling tactics. Make them change their ideas and make them do it quick. United have scored 6 times within the first 3 minutes of games this season. Even if you don't score in such a short time, the away team has been ruffled to the point of distraction and you haven't let them get a grip in the game to build an attack from.
United have also scored after the 90th minute in 7 games this season as well. Some of it luck, but all of it from carrying on this offensive mindset, forcing mistakes and having ability in the last third.

Brentieke · « **Reply #204 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:38:07 pm »

Quote from: litmanen37 on January 20, 2009, 05:28:02 pm

Also, just to elaborate on my own post, will the people who think Rafa should go, also think the same when Torres, Alonso, Reina etc... follow suit? because thats likely to happen if Rafa goes I reckon.

And another question I would pose is, who the fuck do we replace him with?

I dont think anyone we leave if we get a top class manager. Look at Chelsea, as soon as Mourinho left we heard all this bullshit about the likes of Lamaprd, Carvalho, Essien and Drogba all leaving but fast forward 18 months and they're all still there.

As for Rafa's eventual replacement, should he leave today, I'd like us to get Rijkard. Would build a cohesive attacking unit and would surely be respected by our La Liga contingent, seeing his CV is more or less the same as Benitez's.

Tommy316 · « **Reply #205 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:40:01 pm »

Can't wait to beat Wigan (Or even Everton) and get this result out of our systems, so everybody here can start praising Benitez to the high heavens again. Way too many knee jerks. If Benitez would have made the changes he did but the game finished 1-0, nothing would be said. Benitez was not at fault last night, the team he put out was more than capable of winning and I'd say the players let him and us down. They scored from a free kick which shouldn't have happened and they shouldn't have scored from, don't think it has anything to do with Mascherano not coming on, baring in mind he gives away a lot of free kicks himself.

Benitez IS the man to take us to number 19 and this season is as close as we've been for god knows how long, joint top and it's January. Enjoy it and stop the knee jerking.

Brentieke · « **Reply #206 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:41:25 pm »

Quote from: the jesus on January 20, 2009, 05:36:28 pm

That isn't unreasonable,

What would constitute a challenge, still in it in March,April last game ?

April will do me. Something similar to what Arsenal achieved last year.

Quote from: amir87 on January 20, 2009, 05:37:24 pm

Fair enough.
Now who would you like to come in if it doesn't work out this season?

Rijkard would be my first choice, can't see many faults in this team apart from the lack of creativity and attaking impetus which is one of Rijkard's fortes. Also speaks fluent Spanish and has La Liga title winning experience which should be respected by our Spanish lot.

the jesus · « **Reply #207 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:41:28 pm »

Quote from: fudge on January 20, 2009, 05:37:03 pm

I find it repugnant that we're even having this discussion now,

I agree, the man deserves much better.

If we get rid the Biggest club in world football will be falling over themselves to employ him. Yet if our fans and various bellends who manage to get a living by talking shite on telly were to be believed the man is an idiot.

Dr Cornwallis · « **Reply #208 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:41:47 pm »

One thing i WOULD agree with people on is this mental state of Robbie Keane. I dont mean the "oh fuck off" when his number is held up, I mean the consequences of eternally subbing him. He's on his way out of Anfield this Summer it would seem, but that doesn't mean he should be held responsible for the lack of goals we experience at present. Rafa has other options, he can even get in a loan replacement to last until the Summer, but continually playing him in the hope he will LIKE being subbed is flogging a dead horse.

LFCfan4Life · « **Reply #209 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:41:48 pm »

Quote from: Brentie on January 20, 2009, 05:38:07 pm

I dont think anyone we leave if we get a top class manager. Look at Chelsea, as soon as Mourinho left we heard all this bullshit about the likes of Lamaprd, Carvalho, Essien and Drogba all leaving but fast forward 18 months and they're all still there.

As for Rafa's eventual replacement, should he leave today, I'd like us to get Rijkard. Would build a cohesive attacking unit and would surely be respected by our La Liga contingent, seeing his CV is more or less the same as Benitez's.

you don't think they dont get offers? just that chelsea don't need the money

your right many don't leave but if we got an offer good enough from someone im sure G+H would accept and maybe our players would take up the offer to move

LFCfan4Life · « **Reply #210 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:43:08 pm »

Quote from: Dr Cornwallis on January 20, 2009, 05:41:47 pm

One thing i WOULD agree with people on is this mental state of Robbie Keane. I dont mean the "oh fuck off" when his number is held up, I mean the consequences of eternally subbing him. He's on his way out of Anfield this Summer it would seem, but that doesn't mean he should be held responsible for the lack of goals we experience at present. Rafa has other options, he can even get in a loan replacement to last until the Summer, but continually playing him in the hope he will LIKE being subbed is flogging a dead horse.

if he put in some effort and contributed a tin y bit to our attack yesterday he would NEVER have been subbed he was shite a waste of fucking skin thats why he went off

Tommy316 · « **Reply #211 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:43:28 pm »

All this off one draw. ONE DRAW. God knows what would have happened if we got beat.

Dr Cornwallis · « **Reply #212 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:43:58 pm »

Quote from: Brentie on January 20, 2009, 05:38:07 pm

I dont think anyone we leave if we get a top class manager. Look at Chelsea, as soon as Mourinho left we heard all this bullshit about the likes of Lamaprd, Carvalho, Essien and Drogba all leaving but fast forward 18 months and they're all still there.

All were bidded for, all were turned down by their monstrously rich owner and the decision given to the manager.

the jesus · « **Reply #213 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:44:44 pm »

Quote from: Tommy316 on January 20, 2009, 05:43:28 pm

All this off one draw. ONE DRAW. God knows what would have happened if we got beat.

We did, it was in November wasn't it ?
Long time ago now i can't rememeber exactly.

paranoidmike · « **Reply #214 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:45:09 pm »

Quote from: Tommy316 on January 20, 2009, 05:43:28 pm

All this off one draw. ONE DRAW. God knows what would have happened if we got beat.

you'll find out on Monday mate

Brentieke · « **Reply #215 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:45:56 pm »

Quote from: LFCfan4Life on January 20, 2009, 05:41:48 pm

you don't think they dont get offers? just that chelsea don't need the money

your right many don't leave but if we got an offer good enough from someone im sure G+H would accept and maybe our players would take up the offer to move

But that will be the case whether Rafa is here or not. We'll always get offers for our top class players.

I sincerely doubt the likes of Reina and Mascherano will leave the club if Rafa does one. And if the only reason they're here is because of the mananger then maybe they are not commited to the club as much as we liek to think.

End of the day, if Rafa hasnt gotten us results at the end of the season, he'll have to go. Thats how I see it anyways,

Brentieke · « **Reply #216 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:48:26 pm »

Quote from: Dr Cornwallis on January 20, 2009, 05:43:58 pm

All were bidded for, all were turned down by their monstrously rich owner and the decision given to the manager.

Thats not the point though. They're still there, they could have left (especially Lampard) but chose to stay. If they'd felt so strongly about Mourinho leaving then they would have done one as well.

Any manager we'll get will not want to sell his best players. Let's not associate the possible departure of Rafa with the possible exits of Torres and Reina and the rest.

LFC when it suits · « **Reply #217 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:48:35 pm »

Quote from: Tommy316 on January 20, 2009, 05:43:28 pm

All this off one draw. ONE DRAW. God knows what would have happened if we got beat.

Apart from the fact it is the bitters, the draw agaisnt Everton isn't that bad a result.

It's all the other draws that made Yesterday's draw so bad. Fans can see our title challenge slowly slipping away which is why you are seeign all the rash statements and knee jerk reactions.

fowlermagic · « **Reply #218 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:49:05 pm »

Time and place to dissect our present campaign and that is at the end of the season. Long way to go yet and hardly the time to say we are nearing an end with Rafa. This has been his best year yet in the league so hold onto your horses until the race is over.

AlanK · « **Reply #219 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:49:07 pm »

Another totally pro-Rafa backer here. The progress we've made under him is there for all to see, even with one hand tied behind his back. This season I personally believe we're starting to see the beginning of a great team, and it's important to bear in mind that this is the beginning of a side and not the peak of it.
To break up this side now and management team would be footballing suicide that would set us back so many years. Rafa is a proven winner and players want to play for him. Plus I can't think of any realistic manager who could have done a better job that him these past few years.
I can't say for certain that we'll win the league this year, but we will be up there and challenging for the first time since Evans (despite what final totals and final league positions say, we were never in a title race under Houllier). history will tell any student that it is almost impossible in the modern era to go from 4th to 1st in one season and that before a team actually wins the league they have to have the experience of being involved in the race. That's what I feel is happening this year, and who know's, we might win it if a few things go our way...one of them being 2 of our best players (Torres and Mascherano) getting a bit of form.

paranoidmike · « **Reply #220 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:50:08 pm »

as has been mentioned before will you people saying Rafa should go please give the name of who you think our next manager should be. or let me guess Mouriniho

Dr Cornwallis · « **Reply #221 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:50:15 pm »

Quote from: LFCfan4Life on January 20, 2009, 05:43:08 pm

if he put in some effort and contributed a tin y bit to our attack yesterday he would NEVER have been subbed he was shite a waste of fucking skin thats why he went off

Yes he was shite yesterday. Is that Keane's fault for being shite, or our fault for paying £20m for him and not having a Plan C? Torres getting injured was always going to happen, he's quick and he's physical. Only having Robbie Keane as our striking option is Rafa's fault though, it means we have to play in a completely different way, and we havent got the players to do that.

I must also say that Torres should have been the hitman last night, but all the high balls were battered away by Lescott. Hardly useful to Keane hovering around for the knock downs or flick ons. This is why Heskey was mooted. Not to partner Torres, but to partner Keane when Torres gets injured again.

the jesus · « **Reply #222 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:50:31 pm »

Quote from: LFC_4_life on January 20, 2009, 05:48:35 pm

Apart from the fact it is the bitters, the draw agaisnt Everton isn't that bad a result.

Fans can see our title challenge slowly slipping away.

Must be able to see along way into the future then.

Walter Sobchak · « **Reply #223 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:50:45 pm »

Quote from: KOTP on January 20, 2009, 05:20:48 pm

as strange as it may sound and unpopular it is i think so yes as i honestly cant see rafa taking us any closer, but feel that the option maybe taken away from us by rafa leaving anyway to take the position at madrid

just forgetting about the madrid thing. its a really tricky situation. a really tough call to make imo. on the one hand you've got the clear evidence of improvement season on season. a 23 point gap in 06/07 is reduced to an 11 point gap last year and then to a hypothetical 3-6 point gap this year.

but on the other hand you've got the evidence of the already numerous missed opportunities for more points this season and his sometimes questionable tactics and player selections raising serious doubts over wether or not he has what it takes to turn a very good team into a title winning one.

as you said you'd advocate sacking him if that was the case. so basically 'thanks for closing the gap rafa but we dont think you can actually bridge that gap and put us ahead of our fiercest rivals' so thank you and goodbye

to me that seems harsh and ultimately unneccessary. for me if he led us to finish 3-6 points off the eventual winners i think that he has earned more time AND MONEY to bridge that gap.

Danny_ · « **Reply #224 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:50:49 pm »

The muppetry on here is getting hard to take. Sack Rafa? I think I'm leaving for a while until it blows over. Rafa shouldn't be sacked even if he doesn't win the league this year. SAF was given six years. Where would United be if they had just sacked their manager and got somebody else. And it was easier back then because we were the only real obstacle to him winning the league and we gave him a helping hand by employing Souness and then Evans. I don't care if we lose the next 3 straight. Rafa is the right man for the job.

KOTP · « **Reply #225 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:52:15 pm »

Quote from: Tommy316 on January 20, 2009, 05:43:28 pm

All this off one draw. ONE DRAW. God knows what would have happened if we got beat.

as i have constantly said since starting the thread this is not after one draw its somethin i have been thinkin about for a while

LFCfan4Life · « **Reply #226 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:53:30 pm »

Quote from: Brentie on January 20, 2009, 05:48:26 pm

Thats not the point though. They're still there, they could have left (especially Lampard) but chose to stay. If they'd felt so strongly about Mourinho leaving then they would have done one as well.

Any manager we'll get will not want to sell his best players. Let's not associate the possible departure of Rafa with the possible exits of Torres and Reina and the rest.

yea drogbas not off is he? their best striker looks like a pile of wank since jose went he doesn't want to play

also how can a player go when they have 2-3 years on a contract and chelsea won't accept offers?

atm rafa has the support of the players and our best players would turn down any offers to stay here because they like the club (rafa is part of the fucking club just like fans and the players)

martinjmmac5 · « **Reply #227 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:53:50 pm »

Quote from: AlanK on January 20, 2009, 05:49:07 pm

Another totally pro-Rafa backer here. The progress we've made under him is there for all to see, even with one hand tied behind his back. This season I personally believe we're starting to see the beginning of a great team, and it's important to bear in mind that this is the beginning of a side and not the peak of it.
To break up this side now and management team would be footballing suicide that would set us back so many years. Rafa is a proven winner and players want to play for him. Plus I can't think of any realistic manager who could have done a better job that him these past few years.
I can't say for certain that we'll win the league this year, but we will be up there and challenging for the first time since Evans (despite what final totals and final league positions say, we were never in a title race under Houllier). history will tell any student that it is almost impossible in the modern era to go from 4th to 1st in one season and that before a team actually wins the league they have to have the experience of being involved in the race. That's what I feel is happening this year, and who know's, we might win it if a few things go our way...one of them being 2 of our best players (Torres and Mascherano) getting a bit of form.

couldn't be arsed reading your whole post coz i'm lazy but, a few weeks ago this season was the peak of our challenge, gerrards 28, carra's losing it none of them are gettin any younger mate, 18 years has been long enough i think.

Brentieke · « **Reply #228 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:56:45 pm »

Quote from: Tommy316 on January 20, 2009, 05:43:28 pm

All this off one draw. ONE DRAW. God knows what would have happened if we got beat.

What a ridiculous thing to say. This is not a kneejerk response afetr one draw.

This is a response after seeing our title challenge in danger of slipping. After a terrible run of 5 wins out of 12. An awfull run of 1 win in 5 at home. 2 years without winning a trophy, 4 seasons without a title challenge. Mistakes being repeated, cautiousness exibited, the same problems not being adressed, clear favoritism to certain players, sheer stubborness with others, transfer mistakes this summer etc etc...

First 10 games of the season Rafa deserved a 10 out of 10, 8 win and 2 draws, pro active subs and attacking mindset. Next 12 games, 5 out of 10 would be pushing it. Reverted to his cautious self, some weird team selections (Alonso dropped against Fulahm, Kuyt up front alone for many oif those games), even stranger subs, mouthing off to the press about everything....

Something has not been right in the camp since the Chelsea result.

amir87 · « **Reply #229 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:57:44 pm »

Quote from: paranoidmike on January 20, 2009, 05:50:08 pm

as has been mentioned before will you people saying Rafa should go please give the name of who you think our next manager should be. or let me guess Mouriniho

Nah mate, It's all about souness

shanklyboy · « **Reply #230 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:58:21 pm »

Quote from: KOTP on January 20, 2009, 03:12:43 pm

About 18 months before Houllier went I had the moment where i realised that as good a job as he did he was never going to be the manager to take us to the holy grail of number 19.

Quote from: shanklyboy on January 20, 2009, 04:34:12 pm

Why....what happened to make you think this?

I know you've been busy answering posts but you missed this little one from a few hours ago.

AlanK · « **Reply #231 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:58:29 pm »

Quote from: martinjmmac5 on January 20, 2009, 05:53:50 pm

couldn't be arsed reading your whole post coz i'm lazy but, a few weeks ago this season was the peak of our challenge, gerrards 28, carra's losing it none of them are gettin any younger mate, 18 years has been long enough i think.

If that's you're attitude why do you even bother following the team seeing as everone is getting older? Gerrard is at his peak now and will remain there for 3 years or so, as will Nando. Even after that Gerrard will probably still be the best midfielder in the league for another few years. All the ingredients are there to push on from here, not break it up and set us back years

Dr Cornwallis · « **Reply #232 on:** January 20, 2009, 05:58:54 pm »

Quote from: Brentie on January 20, 2009, 05:48:26 pm

Thats not the point though. They're still there, they could have left (especially Lampard) but chose to stay. If they'd felt so strongly about Mourinho leaving then they would have done one as well.

Chelsea were successful before Mourinho. Lampard made his name at Chelsea, there's too much for him to risk by moving on because he's a limited player. Likewise Carragher would not leave if Rafa was to go.
There is a multitude of difference between playing for Liverpool and playing for Chelsea. We have to work hard to stay in the top 3 whereas Chelsea will spend millions on a new manager and whatever players he wants, they are guaranteeed a top 3 finish and CL each season.

There is also a myriad of difference between living in Liverpool and London as a footballer.
No doubt in my mind, if Rafa was to go then 5-6 players would not be far behind. Maybe not following him, but certainly not hanging around to see if another manager can come up with another 5 year plan. They want to compete for the top prizes. With Rafa we are doing so but without him we will be back to 2004/05, HOPING for miracles rather than expecting them.

Remember the banner, "make us dream"?
DREAM! That's all we could do then, so far away from challenging we were that winning the European Cup was the last thing we ever expected!
Fast forward now, half the fans EXPECT to win it or the title this year!

JP-65 · « **Reply #233 on:** January 20, 2009, 06:00:50 pm »

Quote from: LFCfan4Life on January 20, 2009, 05:41:48 pm

you don't think they dont get offers? just that chelsea don't need the money

your right many don't leave but if we got an offer good enough from someone im sure G+H would accept and maybe our players would take up the offer to move

And they get paid more there than they will anywhere else, not quite the same situation at Liverpool.

Extraordinarily Ordinary · « **Reply #234 on:** January 20, 2009, 06:01:27 pm »

Quote from: SMD on January 20, 2009, 03:25:16 pm

Yeah, what was Rafa doing bringing on Lucas in a derby game?! Gerrard should never have gone off.

Was this the same Lucus who he replaced Gerrard with last year and he would have won the game for us but for Neville's dive. Sometimes these decisions work for you sometimes they go against you.

Our problem was the defending from the set play. What was the wall doing so near the touchline. It was obvious to everyone arteta was going to bend it in with his right.

redpride9 · « **Reply #235 on:** January 20, 2009, 06:02:13 pm »

Who else could get us remotely close to winning the title?

Look at the squad Rafa had when he started and have a look at the squad now.

harvey-tuttle · « **Reply #236 on:** January 20, 2009, 06:02:29 pm »

theres no better manager than RAFA

SMD · « **Reply #237 on:** January 20, 2009, 06:02:56 pm »

Quote from: Extraordinarily Ordinary on January 20, 2009, 06:01:27 pm

Was this the same Lucus who he replaced Gerrard with last year and he would have won the game for us but for Neville's dive. Sometimes these decisions work for you sometimes they go against you.

That would be the very same

KOTP · « **Reply #238 on:** January 20, 2009, 06:03:14 pm »

Quote from: shanklyboy on January 20, 2009, 05:58:21 pm

I know you've been busy answering posts but you missed this little one from a few hours ago.

there where numerous things at the time when i realised houllier couldnt take us further (i'm assumin that is what you are askin) at the time he was payin vast amounts for palyers that i thought where overrated, then playing them out of position and his tactics which i thought he was getting constantly wrong and where affecting our performances. houllier was never the same after his operations and its hardly suprising, and personally this got him 12-18 months longer with both the fans and the board

Red number seven · « **Reply #239 on:** January 20, 2009, 06:04:08 pm »

Rules of running a football club:

Number 1.

Good managers are not that easy to come by (cf Newcastle, Tottenham).

When you've got one, stick with him until you are convinced he's not one, and be patient, even when the less cerebrally endowed of your fans are baying for his sacking (cf Manchester United, Everton).

Number 2

Sometimes you need to get rid of a manager whom you once thought was a good one, but are now having some doubts about. Here are some guidelines.

Be patient, always. There is too much random chance in football to react to every result, or even every season. It is better to give a manager one season too many than to repeatedly give managers one season too few. Stability will serve you well in the long run.

You will know when to part company with a manager because you will see that there is no foundation for the future and that things are going in the wrong direction for a prolonged period of time - this period should be an absolute minimum of one season unless utter disaster beckons.

Any discussion of sacking Rafa is utterly ludicrous given that we are one of the best half dozen sides in European competition, we are second on goal difference in our domestic league in mid January and the first shoots of his youth development programme have started poking through at first team level (ie Insua). We have a good half dozen top/world class players whose futures would be under question immediately if Rafa left, especially as his likely destination would be Madrid.

Noone can guarantee number 19 this season, next season or ever, whether Rafa stays or goes. We are competing against very good, very expensively assembled sides. I honestly think, though, that anyone who genuinely thinks sacking Rafa would be a sensible way to progress Liverpool Football Club is a moron in the true sense of the word.