Topic: Rafa's "Houllier Moment"

[KOTP]

About 18 months before Houllier went I had the moment where i realised that as good a job as he did he was never going to be the manager to take us to the holy grail of number 19. I've waited a few hours before posting this as at the time i posted about Houllier all I got was abuse and am just expecting the same now. This isnt just a rash thought I've had after last nights disappointment but that hasnt helped, its something that I've been thinking for a while and finally come to the conclusion that as good as Benitez has been, I cant see him ending the wait for number 19.

Rafa has given me and the rest of us some of the greatest moments as Liverpool fans but his constant baffling tactical decisions have finally seen me think this.

Last night Evertons main threat was coming from Anichebe who was starting on the right when we had the ball and cutting in to support cahill when Everton had it, he was causing problems but nothing that was dangerous most of the night until Rafa took Keane off which i support but instead of bringing mascherano on and pushing Gerrard further forward, he opted to bring on Yossi moving kuyt central and yossi on the right. As soon as he did this Moyes saw a potential weakness with yossi being a lot smaller than any of the other wingers we had on during the game and moved Anchiebe over to our right and there left, it came as no suprise that this is where Evertons goal come Yossi was no patch for the pace and raw strength of Anichebe and  in the end his foul brought Evertons goal.

Another one of Rafa's baffling decisions that he makes constantly is his seeming willingness to stick with Lucas who in 18months as far as I can remember has put in 1 good performance against a woeful newcastle. How Rafa can justify bringing him on before Mascherano last night is crazy it wasnt lucas' type of game it was to fast and furious for him he doesnt have a reputation of being a good tackler and that was proven last night when he came on his first impact was to give a free kick away and that continued through his performance.

another baffling decision by Rafa for me was his decision in the summer to bring in Robbie Keane, as good as a player as Keane has been if was never going to work out at Liverpool for him.  Benitez throughtout his managerial career has prefered a 4231 formation which is never going to suit Keane as he cant play as a lone striker and even if he could isnt going to be prefered over Torres,  and secondly to play him in the 4231 formation is then going to mean Gerrard dropping into the defensive mid roll which is then negating one of our main attacking threats.

Overall Rafa has given me some great times as a liverpool fan but i just cant see him bringing number 19 home unfortunately

[LFCfan4Life]

are you serious rafa has taken our squad forward and made good buys

after 2001 houllier got rid of our better players and bought in complete shite for big money

[KTS]

The similarities and the feelings of Houllier's final moments are there to be seen and felt and it's heartbraking.

Watching Rafa is like watching an elderly relative who is stuck in their own world and beliefs, you love them so much but cant help wanting to pick them up by the scruff of the neck and screaming at them for being so fuckin stubborn.

[KOTP]

are you serious rafa has taken our squad forward and made good buys

after 2001 houllier got rid of our better players and bought in complete shite for big money

yes he has taken the squad forward but i dont feel he cant take it any further forward,

[Ryde-On]

The similarities and the feelings of Houllier's final moments are there to be seen and felt and it's heartbraking.

Watching Rafa is like watching an elderly relative who is stuck in their own world and beliefs, you love them so much but cant help wanting to pick them up by the scruff of the neck and screaming at them for being so fuckin stubborn.

I think you've summed up there what a lot of people are feeling.  I think a lot of those people are also too afraid to admit it.

The tactical decisions Rafa made last night were baffling, nonsensical and cost us points.  When it comes down to the wire, those few points can cost championships.

[youll never walk alone it]

the simalarities? we were joint top when houllier left?  an houllier did an almost impossible job  in getting us to 2 european cup finals?  an still in this 1?  hmmmm.

[Smellytrabs]

Rafa got the game wrong last night, and also against Stoke.  It's a blip, sometimes players have a poor spell, sometimes the manager does.

Rafa is the right man for the job, there is nobody better, and I am pretty sure we haven't even seen the best of him yet.

[DangerScouse]

This is a fucking ridiculous thread. We were a poor european side and were struggling massively in the league under Houllier and you come out with this when we've lost one league game all season, have beaten our 2 main rivals in the league, are joint top and are in the last 16 of the champions league under Rafa. FFS GET A GRIP!

[Pheeny]

I personally disagree with what you say and believe that we will get no19 this season.But would like to say why can't all people with something to say whether it be positive or negative do so in a well thought out post like this.Top of the class Jon...

[KTS]

the simalarities? we were joint top when houllier left?  an houllier did an almost impossible job  in getting us to 2 european cup finals?  an still in this 1?  hmmmm.

We very nearly won the league under Houllier only a near perfect run-in by Arsenal stopped us doing it. From then on we went downhill under Ged instead of progressing. Despite being in second place and on the same points as United, it still feels uuuurrrggghhh because we should be at least 6 or 8 points clear with a bit more passion, belief, optimism and adventure. I would much rather lose the league kicking and screaming than hiding behind the couch hoping for things.

[SMD]

Yeah, what was Rafa doing bringing on Lucas in a derby game?! Gerrard should never have gone off.

[LFC when it suits]

Rafa is too stubbourn. He doesn't learn from his mistakes.

This is what is worrying me.

[RedHandGang]

I can't beleive what I am reading. Ferguson is right about some Liverpool fans not knowing how to handle a title challenge. Overall this season we are challenging for the title. It is nearly February and we are joint top. This time in most years since 1990 we would be glad to be in this position.

Fickle or what. Rafa has done an immense job and will continue to do so. If we drop like stones and don't compete next year then it is time to reasses.

[martinjmmac5]

are you serious rafa has taken our squad forward and made good buys

after 2001 houllier got rid of our better players and bought in complete shite for big money

and that team won us the european cup.

Rafa is too stubbourn. He doesn't learn from his mistakes.

This is what is worrying me.

[edeyj]

The similarities and the feelings of Houllier's final moments are there to be seen and felt and it's heartbraking.

Watching Rafa is like watching an elderly relative who is stuck in their own world and beliefs, you love them so much but cant help wanting to pick them up by the scruff of the neck and screaming at them for being so fuckin stubborn.

Your first post has some merit, but this one is cuckoo brained!

[JohnBarnesBigToe]

I fully understand what is being said here, but to my mind the nub of the issue is wheather any other manager could take this squad to the title?

I would imagine given our financial state that little money will be available in the summer to strengthen, let alone expand to the degree that the Mancs, Manchester City or Chelsea will be able to and so any other manager would have, predominately, this set of players at their disposal.

With Houllier the answer was yes, with Rafa im not so sure.

[The 5th Benitle]

Rafa has got us to where we are now and there is no-one more capable of finishing the job. For a start quite a few players would leave if Rafa did so the idea that a new manager could win us the league is ludicrous.
Binning Rafa would set us back YEARS.

[Ryde-On]

This is a fucking ridiculous thread. We were a poor european side and were struggling massively in the league under Houllier and you come out with this when we've lost one league game all season, have beaten our 2 main rivals in the league, are joint top and are in the last 16 of the champions league under Rafa. FFS GET A GRIP!

I think you're mistaking making general progress to consistently winning things.  Claudio Ranieri, along with Abramovich's millions, turned Chelsea round, but it took Jose Mourinho to really make them imperious.  Even though Ranieri bought the spine of the team, it took the portuguese  whingebag to instill the winning mentality.  It worries me that this is looking more and more what is needed with us.

[robbie96]

yes he has taken the squad forward but i dont feel he cant take it any further forward,

I love Liverpool ....but, get a grip mate!

Do you really believe that if our positions were reverse....if Liverpool was on top and Man United just dropped 2 points to city that the fans would be:

1.Calling for Fergie's head - saying "he can't take us any further"
2. Complaining to anyone who will listen - 606 , blogs, forums, newspapers, Setanta (last night)
3. Believing for one instant that they couldn't overcome ANY obstacle
4. Slagging off any of their players

We drew with Everton lastnight....it sucks....OK....it really sucks....but, the team played a 1000% better than at Stoke

.....with passion , unity , and belief.....Torres was immense last night......ya, I wish he'd put the little yellow thing in the back of the net last night at 27minutes 21 seconds... but, he didn't!

......but, he promised me and every other Liverpool fan # 19 .....and I believe.....I BELIEVE we'll do it 

[Jookie]

are you serious rafa has taken our squad forward and made good buys

after 2001 houllier got rid of our better players and bought in complete shite for big money

Playing Devil's Advocate, you could easily see last summers transfer window being to Rafa what the 'Diao, Diouf, Cheyrou' summer was to Houllier. Keane, Dossena and Degen have all been failures so far. Riera has been a success and Cavilieri is an unknown.

With regards to the OP, I don't necessarily agree and I'm sure you'll have a fair number of people picking holes in every little detail of your argument!However, with regards to your overall point I do know a reasonable amount of people (mostly ST holders who have been going for years) who agree. While I don't agree with the OP, I've found myself having to defend Rafa more and more over the last 12 months. While I still have faith in him, I do think he has made some poor decisions this year. I think the worst has been removing Gerrard from playing behind the front man. Last season we had a great end to the season playing Gerrard in his most effective position. To compound this Keane, his direct replacement,  has become a £20M conundrum for Rafa. I Think this has contributed to our overall performances (not results) this season not beingas good as thouse I witnessed Feb to May last season.

[hazzalfc]

We've dropped too many points at home and there's only some many times you can say we was unlucky, blame the ref etc. When the real problem is we are not positive enough at home, that's what will cost us the league. We have drawn 5 games at home, that is not title winning form and Rafa has to take the blame for that.

[Fat Scouser]

Last night I started a Sack Rafa thread for a laugh. Why don't you have the bollacks to just call this it, say what you really think - Sack Rafa - and be done with it?

You are entitled to your opinion. You shouldn't just be leathered for it. but you should have the courage of your convictions and be straight about it.

 

[The Frederick]

This is a fucking ridiculous thread. We were a poor european side and were struggling massively in the league under Houllier and you come out with this when we've lost one league game all season, have beaten our 2 main rivals in the league, are joint top and are in the last 16 of the champions league under Rafa. FFS GET A GRIP!

I don't care about losses. I would gladly have lost more if it meant that some of the draws became wins.

[hazzalfc]

I love Liverpool ....but, get a grip mate!

Do you really believe that if our positions were reverse....if Liverpool was on top and Man United just dropped 2 points to city that the fans would be:

1.Calling for Fergie's head - saying "he can't take us any further"
2. Complaining to anyone who will listen - 606 , blogs, forums, newspapers, Setanta (last night)
3. Believing for one instant that they couldn't overcome ANY obstacle
4. Slagging off any of their players

We drew with Everton lastnight....it sucks....OK....it really sucks....but, the team played a 1000% better than at Stoke

.....with passion , unity , and belief.....Torres was immense last night......ya, I wish he'd put the little yellow thing in the back of the net last night at 27minutes 21 seconds... but, he didn't!

......but, he promised me and every other Liverpool fan # 19 .....and I believe.....I BELIEVE we'll do it 

Fergie's track record would allow him to get away with dropping points in the derby.

[Brian Blessed]

I think Rafa is doing a superb job and there is real progress. Before the season started most Liverpool fans said they'd be happy with a title challenge. Well, guess what? That's what we have. 16 games to go, no points in it. The game at Old Trafford gets more and more pivotol as the days pass.

Also, you have to consider that if Rafa did leave, how many essential players would follow him? The team would be gutted, we'd be back to challenging for fourth and another multi-year rebuilding job on a new managers hands.

[robbie96]

I think you're mistaking making general progress to consistently winning things.  Claudio Ranieri, along with Abramovich's millions, turned Chelsea round, but it took Jose Mourinho to really make them imperious.  Even though Ranieri bought the spine of the team, it took the portuguese  whingebag to instill the winning mentality.  It worries me that this is looking more and more what is needed with us.

Did Mourinho change the team's mentality or did he change the fans' mentality? 

[MLR]

what a load of pish.

[pad-dock]

(. As soon as he did this Moyes saw a potential weakness with yossi being a lot smaller than any of the other wingers we had on during the game and moved Anchiebe over to our right and there left, it came as no suprise that this is where Evertons goal come Yossi was no patch for the pace and raw strength of Anichebe and  in the end his foul brought Evertons goal.)

To add to the above we had Arbeloa stripped ready to come on ( carra was out on his feet ) and then told Arbeloa to put his tracksuit back on !! It was so obvious the goal was going to come from that side...Arbelo infront of carra would have been a better option for the last 15 mins.

I am also losing faith in Raffa taking us to the 19th.




another baffling decision by Rafa for me was his decision in the summer to bring in Robbie Keane, as good as a player as Keane has been if was never going to work out at Liverpool for him.  Benitez throughtout his managerial career has prefered a 4231 formation which is never going to suit Keane as he cant play as a lone striker and even if he could isnt going to be prefered over Torres,  and secondly to play him in the 4231 formation is then going to mean Gerrard dropping into the defensive mid roll which is then negating one of our main attacking threats.

Overall Rafa has given me some great times as a liverpool fan but i just cant see him bringing number 19 home unfortunately
[/quote]

[robbie96]

Fergie's track record would allow him to get away with dropping points in the derby.

And Rafa's doesn't.....I seem to remember winning a shiny trophy with big ears with a certain Spaniard!

[xavidub]

This is a fucking ridiculous thread. We were a poor european side and were struggling massively in the league under Houllier and you come out with this when we've lost one league game all season, have beaten our 2 main rivals in the league, are joint top and are in the last 16 of the champions league under Rafa. FFS GET A GRIP!

[Vinny1892]

I think sometimes the players have to take a lot of the rap. I hear what you are saying about the substitutions (Rafa's use of subs always frustrates me), but let us not forget that we started the match with Gerrard, Alonso, Kuyt, Riera, Keane and Torres all on the pitch and created virtually nothing for 90 minutes. Torres should have scored when he hit the post in the first half; I feel he was delaying to draw the foul, win a penalty, and get Jagielka sent off. This, however was pretty much the only decent opening we created. Gerrard scored another cracker and Riera came close from distance, but there wasn't much creativity (again!). I know derbies are not the easiest time to get on the ball and play neat passes, but we should have done much better as a team. Once again I don't think I saw Keane have more than two or three touches, games often seem to pass him by. Of course he is a top player, unfortunately though, I can't really see him hitting his top gear at Anfield under Rafa.

[hazzalfc]

And Rafa's doesn't.....I seem to remember winning a shiny trophy with big ears with a certain Spaniard!

That was nearly four years ago and unfortunately they've won alot more than us since then.

[LFC when it suits]

Houllier was doing a great job until he had that operation, and then he went looney.

I hope that we don't see the same thing with Rafa after his operation.

[Joshytoohotty]

See where we are at the end of the season and take it from there is my opinion.

[Jase]

I can't beleive what I am reading. Ferguson is right about some Liverpool fans not knowing how to handle a title challenge. Overall this season we are challenging for the title. It is nearly February and we are joint top. This time in most years since 1990 we would be glad to be in this position.

Fickle or what. Rafa has done an immense job and will continue to do so. If we drop like stones and don't compete next year then it is time to reasses.

Here here, this is the year that we could be champions and to think that we could be looking back in May and saying 'Wow, and to think just over 3 months ago some wanted him out' gives me some sort of perspective on the situation.

[mjgill85]

I think you're mistaking making general progress to consistently winning things.  Claudio Ranieri, along with Abramovich's millions, turned Chelsea round, but it took Jose Mourinho to really make them imperious.  Even though Ranieri bought the spine of the team, it took the portuguese  whingebag to instill the winning mentality.  It worries me that this is looking more and more what is needed with us.

But Rafa won the league twice in Spain. Surely he had to have a winning mentality to do that. What's more, he's added two more former domestic champions in Sammy Lee and Pellegrino to the coaching staff.

Bear in mind that this is the first time that a lot of these players have been in a position to challenge for a championship their entire careers. Maybe Rafa and the staff could do a better job instilling the winning mentality into the players, but I don't believe he doesn't have it in him.

[pool182]

I agrre. Judge him at the end of the season

[stoa]

But Rafa won the league twice in Spain. Surely he had to have a winning mentality to do that. What's more, he's added two more former domestic champions in Sammy Lee and Pelegrino to the coaching staff.

La Liga obviously doesn't count as winning the league, because people always dismiss Rafa's efforts with Valencia saying the football is different, the PL is much more competitive and other such bollocks.

[Brian Blessed]

It's mind boggling. We're doing better than we have in nearly two decades, and people want the manager out. WHat bizarre world are we living in. Thank god Shanks wasn't a manger in the modern era.

[Fat Scouser]

VDM, although he doesn't agree with the original post, think's this is well thought out argument. I can't agree with that. I see plenty of people on here making vieled Sack Rafa noises. They don't usually have the bollacks to come out and say it, but neither do they ever give an alternative or a theory as to where we would be without Rafa.

So, if we're not going to allow Rafa the time to finish his plan, who would you take over him, and what would his five year plan be? And, seeing that Chelsea and Arsenal are in a bit of disarray themselves, are you really prepared to dismantle and rebuild what we have while the Mancs streak out of sight with no real opposition to stop them?