Topic: Doesn't matter who you vote for as long as it's for the right reasons!

[rob1966]

Xmas argument yesterday at the dinner table

Mum: "I could never vote for Keir Starmer, he stuck up for Jimmy Saville"
Me: "No he didn't you moron, for starters he worked for the CPS, the ones who prosecute the crimes, not a defence lawyer"
Dad: "Theres no point in trying to convince your mum, she buys the Daily Mail every day and doesnt think it is a right wing newspaper"
Mum: "No I don't! I only buy it once a week"

Here's to a 2022 where that fat c*nt Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson gets booted out or dies.

Option B please

[oldfordie]

Nobody wants to see a repeat of what happened to this country from 2016 onwards but it should not be forgotten. the anger and the division that split the country in half. all created deliberately by the Tory right wing fanatics and Frottage and co with the help of some of the media, we had hundreds if not thousands of Tommy Robinsons on the streets looking for trouble. MPs died. these so called politicians used these people. they hoped to take the country down the same path as the US. some still do, they would happily use the "Will of the People" traitor card to silence any opposition today if they could get away with it.
I want more than this Tory government kicked out, I want future Tory party MPs to be apologising for many years to come for what this Tory government have done since 2015, they need to spend the next 25yrs+ begging the country to forgive them and trust them once again.
So yeah. lets hope the anger dies away and family and friends can talk as friends once again with both of them pointing their anger at the politicians who used them for personal gain.

[TSC]

As bad as ‘traditional’ Tory parties have been (from a Labour perspective) I wouldn’t associate the current administration with them.  This current mob are like some sort of nationalist-driven ‘spin-off’ cabal.  They’re so incompetent they have yet to realise the ‘nationalism’ playbook sort of loses whatever appeal it may have held (for some) in the midst of a pandemic with c150k reported deaths (actual will be much higher).  Particularly given government’s management of the pandemic.

Of course this administration purged all semi ‘moderate’ Tories (including those with experience of actual governance) by only retaining those who pledged allegiance to Brexit & the disaster that Johnson is.

[Robinred]

Corbyn was good in that tweet, and he’s quite right to highlight the issues he does.

I was reminded of Michael Foot - a very well read, thoughtful man with principles and a keen mind. Politics is often enriched by such people. But they should never become leaders; that role requires a particular and different skillset.

[TepidT2O]

Michael Foot was an intellectual giant, no matter how disastrous his political ability  was for the country

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

They’re so incompetent they have yet to realise the ‘nationalism’ playbook sort of loses whatever appeal it may have held (for some) in the midst of a pandemic with c150k reported deaths (actual will be much higher).  Particularly given government’s management of the pandemic.

Of course this administration purged all semi ‘moderate’ Tories (including those with experience of actual governance) by only retaining those who pledged allegiance to Brexit & the disaster that Johnson is.

I’m not sure they’re incompetent, I think it’s all calculated and deliberate. Re COVID, not sure what else they could have done. Again re Covid it’s a “storm in a tea cup” in comparison to climate change which they’re effectively doing nothing  about.

[oldfordie]

I’m not sure they’re incompetent, I think it’s all calculated and deliberate. Re COVID, not sure what else they could have done. Again re Covid it’s a “storm in a tea cup” in comparison to climate change which they’re effectively doing nothing  about.

Best start at the beginning, would you expect a competent government to at least check to see if any PPE purchachased met UK standards, would you expect a competent government to hand out Ł100 mill cheques like confettii. this government did, they handed over all these massive cheques for PPE. the PPE arrived in crates, they opened the boxes and said this is shite, the boxes were hidden away from public view in the hope people would forget about them.
This is what I can't get my head around, people opened those boxes and knew they were not up to standard straight away. did nobody even ask the sellers to at least hold 1 PPE garment up in front of a web cam. we still don't know the full extent of the PPE rip off contracts and corruption, we do know UK PPE sellers offered PPE to the government that must have met UK standards. seems they were either ignored or made to jump through hoops with a long questionnaire. all these questions need answering. BBC had a documentary on the Tory PPE incompetence last week, only caught the last 5 min, shocking. it needs to be shown more often.
Next comes test and trace and Dido Harding, Ł37 bill. someone who was there to protect us," Nobody could have predicted Covid would mutate" Dido Harding. she should have been grabbed by the collar and thrown out. nope. Torys thought nothing of it.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Best start at the beginning, would you expect a competent government to at least check to see if any PPE purchachased met UK standards, would you expect a competent government to hand out Ł100 mill cheques like confettii. this government did, they handed over all these massive cheques for PPE. the PPE arrived in crates, they opened the boxes and said this is shite, the boxes were hidden away from public view in the hope people would forget about them.
This is what I can't get my head around, people opened those boxes and knew they were not up to standard straight away. did nobody even ask the sellers to at least hold 1 PPE garment up in front of a web cam. we still don't know the full extent of the PPE rip off contracts and corruption, we do know UK PPE sellers offered PPE to the government that must have met UK standards. seems they were either ignored or made to jump through hoops with a long questionnaire. all these questions need answering. BBC had a documentary on the Tory PPE incompetence last week, only caught the last 5 min, shocking. it needs to be shown more often.
Next comes test and trace and Dido Harding, Ł37 bill. someone who was there to protect us," Nobody could have predicted Covid would mutate" Dido Harding. she should have been grabbed by the collar and thrown out. nope. Torys thought nothing of it.

To be fair doing all that on Ł37 was pretty good

Thought it cost a lot more than that to be honest

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Best start at the beginning, would you expect a competent government to at least check to see if any PPE purchachased met UK standards, would you expect a competent government to hand out Ł100 mill cheques like confettii. this government did, they handed over all these massive cheques for PPE. the PPE arrived in crates, they opened the boxes and said this is shite, the boxes were hidden away from public view in the hope people would forget about them.
This is what I can't get my head around, people opened those boxes and knew they were not up to standard straight away. did nobody even ask the sellers to at least hold 1 PPE garment up in front of a web cam. we still don't know the full extent of the PPE rip off contracts and corruption, we do know UK PPE sellers offered PPE to the government that must have met UK standards. seems they were either ignored or made to jump through hoops with a long questionnaire. all these questions need answering. BBC had a documentary on the Tory PPE incompetence last week, only caught the last 5 min, shocking. it needs to be shown more often.
Next comes test and trace and Dido Harding, Ł37 bill. someone who was there to protect us," Nobody could have predicted Covid would mutate" Dido Harding. she should have been grabbed by the collar and thrown out. nope. Torys thought nothing of it.

As I said its deliberate and calculated

[TSC]

I’m not sure they’re incompetent, I think it’s all calculated and deliberate. Re COVID, not sure what else they could have done. Again re Covid it’s a “storm in a tea cup” in comparison to climate change which they’re effectively doing nothing  about.

There are a few phrases I’ve heard to describe government’s handling of the pandemic.  I’ve never heard at least 150,000 dead described as a ‘storm in a teacup’.

In terms of incompetence off the top of my head.

Johnson not turning up to Cobra meetings at the start of the pandemic.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/coronavirus-boris-johnson-cobra-meetings-uk-response-a9472631.html

Then too slow to lockdown in March 2020 and releasing infected patients into care homes from hospitals, thereby spreading Covid to the most vulnerable. 

Then opened up too early and remember ‘eat out to help out’.  Help the spread further.  Refused a ‘circuit breaker’ in autumn 2020, only to u-turn Xmas 2020.  Tens of thousands dead subsequently.

Then chased trade deals with Modi in India so refused to put India on the travel ‘red list’ for a period, thereby enabling ‘delta’ to spread here (folk are still dying with this variant).

Łbillions spaffed on crap PPE and through apparent corruption.  Contracts for mates etc.  If anything was deliberate that was.

The rest was incompetence.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

There are a few phrases I’ve heard to describe government’s handling of the pandemic.  I’ve never heard at least 150,000 dead described as a ‘storm in a teacup’

In comparison to climate change, but for some reason no one is interested in that.

One day, a lot sooner that most imagine, we’ll find out.

[oldfordie]

As I said its deliberate and calculated

Did you read my post?
Allowing the country to be ripped off by con merchants can't be put down to corruption. (Turkish shirt salesman and others) put it down to panic if you want but not corruption, would any Company buyer spend Ł100s mill without insisting on some sort of check to see if the goods were up to UK standards. corruption did play a part am certain as the government blew billions but all this needs to be proven.
Point is, the government would love us to believe they were really unlucky, poor Boris did his best but everything hit him at once so it mattered little who was in charge, it would still have been awful.
Johnsons government acted incompetently. many also looked at Covid as a opportunity to make a fortune, Corruption.

[Yorkykopite]

Michael Foot was an intellectual giant, no matter how disastrous his political ability  was for the country

A moral man too. He knew what tyranny was, regardless of whether it operated under a capitalist or socialist economy, and he called it out. That is very different to the other chap.

[TSC]

In comparison to climate change, but for some reason no one is interested in that.

One day, a lot sooner that most imagine, we’ll find out.

Plenty comments on climate change, check out the relevant thread.  It’s only a few below this one.  Entitled ‘climate emergency is already here….’. 

For what it’s worth COP26 was an underwhelming event, hosted by this administration.  Common denominator there, what with Johnson jetting from Scotland to London to meet in the Garrick Club with reps from the Telegraph.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/boris-johnson-left-cop26-on-a-private-jet-to-attend-dinner-in-london-report/ar-AAQiYyo

[Robinred]

A moral man too. He knew what tyranny was, regardless of whether it operated under a capitalist or socialist economy, and he called it out. That is very different to the other chap.

Yes. In my desire to demonstrate some seasonal goodwill, and on account of the ‘mellowness’ daytime imbibing produces, I appeared to equate two politicians where no comparison is fair, nor intended.

Reading my post back, it was poorly presented. My intention, clumsily put, was to point out neither was a suitable leader. Foot made many valuable contributions to the Party. Corbyn, for once, and with that presentation, also did; that was the point. It’s possible Corbyn’s motivation was devious too - I recognise that; but I’d prefer to think otherwise.

[rob1966]

Best start at the beginning, would you expect a competent government to at least check to see if any PPE purchachased met UK standards, would you expect a competent government to hand out Ł100 mill cheques like confettii. this government did, they handed over all these massive cheques for PPE. the PPE arrived in crates, they opened the boxes and said this is shite, the boxes were hidden away from public view in the hope people would forget about them.
This is what I can't get my head around, people opened those boxes and knew they were not up to standard straight away. did nobody even ask the sellers to at least hold 1 PPE garment up in front of a web cam. we still don't know the full extent of the PPE rip off contracts and corruption, we do know UK PPE sellers offered PPE to the government that must have met UK standards. seems they were either ignored or made to jump through hoops with a long questionnaire. all these questions need answering. BBC had a documentary on the Tory PPE incompetence last week, only caught the last 5 min, shocking. it needs to be shown more often.
Next comes test and trace and Dido Harding, Ł37 bill. someone who was there to protect us," Nobody could have predicted Covid would mutate" Dido Harding. she should have been grabbed by the collar and thrown out. nope. Torys thought nothing of it.

The BBC documentary about the PPE contract given to an NI sweet maker (Randox are from NI too btw) Some of the boxes were later sold for a fiver.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0012ljx/spotlight-covid-contracts-hunting-for-ppe

The actual boxes of PPE, same contract no, Lot No, etc as show in the documentary. that cost Ł1000 each, can now be bought on ebay for Ł95

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/403296785253?hash=item5de65c9365:g:CKkAAOSwugVhvY1g

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Yes. In my desire to demonstrate some seasonal goodwill, and on account of the ‘mellowness’ daytime imbibing produces, I appeared to equate two politicians where no comparison is fair, nor intended.

Reading my post back, it was poorly presented. My intention, clumsily put, was to point out neither was a suitable leader. Foot made many valuable contributions to the Party. Corbyn, for once, and with that presentation, also did; that was the point. It’s possible Corbyn’s motivation was devious too - I recognise that; but I’d prefer to think otherwise.

I'm hoping that Corbyn gets back involved with the party with videos and support for the leadership and direction.

He could be an amazing force for good. All he has to do is apologise and then that's done.

What's more important? Apologising and eating some humble pie and helping rid the country of the Tories or sitting back?

He has shown with that video that he could still be a force for good in this country. As a few have said; he came across really well and looked comfortable and at ease. He's got a message to share and it's up to him what platform that message lands on.

[TSC]

The BBC documentary about the PPE contract given to an NI sweet maker (Randox are from NI too btw) Some of the boxes were later sold for a fiver.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0012ljx/spotlight-covid-contracts-hunting-for-ppe

The actual boxes of PPE, same contract no, Lot No, etc as show in the documentary. that cost Ł1000 each, can now be bought on ebay for Ł95

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/403296785253?hash=item5de65c9365:g:CKkAAOSwugVhvY1g

I seen that programme last week.  Someone called Paul Girvan from the DUP appears to have been involved.  What a surprise.

The below links to the company awarded the contract to supply PPE gowns.  Note the ‘nature of the business’.

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/NI617785

[oldfordie]

To be fair doing all that on Ł37 was pretty good

Thought it cost a lot more than that to be honest

[chalky52]

I'm hoping that Corbyn gets back involved with the party with videos and support for the leadership and direction.

He could be an amazing force for good. All he has to do is apologise and then that's done.

What's more important? Apologising and eating some humble pie and helping rid the country of the Tories or sitting back?

He has shown with that video that he could still be a force for good in this country. As a few have said; he came across really well and looked comfortable and at ease. He's got a message to share and it's up to him what platform that message lands on.

Completely agree all he has to do is say he doesn't agree with all the findings of the inquiry but accepts in hindsight he could have done things better and apologise for the hurt and distress caused by the antisemitism. Then try and get in Government to make a positive change to peoples lives. For example I always thought he should do deal with Labour leadership to lend support to them on the proviso they agree to relax student debt if they win power a cause that his supporter base could really get behind.

[oldfordie]

The BBC documentary about the PPE contract given to an NI sweet maker (Randox are from NI too btw) Some of the boxes were later sold for a fiver.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0012ljx/spotlight-covid-contracts-hunting-for-ppe

The actual boxes of PPE, same contract no, Lot No, etc as show in the documentary. that cost Ł1000 each, can now be bought on ebay for Ł95

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/403296785253?hash=item5de65c9365:g:CKkAAOSwugVhvY1g

Thanks Rob. that's the one. will watch later.

[JohnnoWhite]

Completely agree all he has to do is say he doesn't agree with all the findings of the inquiry but accepts in hindsight he could have done things better and apologise for the hurt and distress caused by the antisemitism. Then try and get in Government to make a positive change to peoples lives. For example I always thought he should do deal with Labour leadership to lend support to them on the proviso they agree to relax student debt if they win power a cause that his supporter base could really get behind.

Don't hold your breath waiting for Abstarmer to have a twinge of conscience for the disgraceful way he has treated Jeremy. Were I JC, I'd never speak to the so-called Leader of the party that was my political home for 53 years. However, JC most likely will because he's a much better man than me.

[Sangria]

Don't hold your breath waiting for Abstarmer to have a twinge of conscience for the disgraceful way he has treated Jeremy. Were I JC, I'd never speak to the so-called Leader of the party that was my political home for 53 years. However, JC most likely will because he's a much better man than me.

Why this name?

[JohnnoWhite]

Because I judge the bloke to be a fraud is why. He's no Leader !! More an apologist than a Leader. With all the ammo he's had on his plate these last 2 years, he should have had BoJo hung drawn and slaughtered and out of the house by now.

[Sangria]

Because I judge the bloke to be a fraud is why. He's no Leader !! More an apologist than a Leader. With all the ammo he's had on his plate these last 2 years, he should have had BoJo hung drawn and slaughtered and out of the house by now.

Why Abstarmer, which I assume is a portmanteau of abstain and Starmer's name?

[TepidT2O]

Why Abstarmer, which I assume is a portmanteau of abstain and Starmer's name?

Because  childish name calling always beats genuine argument on the internet

(All guilty of that I suspect).

[Yorkykopite]

Yes. In my desire to demonstrate some seasonal goodwill, and on account of the ‘mellowness’ daytime imbibing produces, I appeared to equate two politicians where no comparison is fair, nor intended.

Reading my post back, it was poorly presented. My intention, clumsily put, was to point out neither was a suitable leader. Foot made many valuable contributions to the Party. Corbyn, for once, and with that presentation, also did; that was the point. It’s possible Corbyn’s motivation was devious too - I recognise that; but I’d prefer to think otherwise.

Good stuff Robin. I thought Corbyn sounded ok too on the Xmas video, and like you I'm not interested in his motivations for doing it. Nothing malicious there. But the apparent comparison with Michael Foot sounded wrong! Neither man was cut out to be leader of the Labour party, but that's where the likeness ends.

[Sangria]

Because  childish name calling always beats genuine argument on the internet

(All guilty of that I suspect).

I'm wondering if it's the latest meme going around social media, like "Keith". Not being on Facebook or twitter myself, I only get to see these memes when people start using them here.

[oldfordie]

Good stuff Robin. I thought Corbyn sounded ok too on the Xmas video, and like you I'm not interested in his motivations for doing it. Nothing malicious there. But the apparent comparison with Michael Foot sounded wrong! Neither man was cut out to be leader of the Labour party, but that's where the likeness ends.

I thought the same.

[Yorkykopite]

Don't hold your breath waiting for Abstarmer to have a twinge of conscience for the disgraceful way he has treated Jeremy. Were I JC, I'd never speak to the so-called Leader of the party that was my political home for 53 years. However, JC most likely will because he's a much better man than me.

JC doesn't abstain. In the House of Commons he votes in the same lobby as the extreme right wing nuts - from Enoch Powell and Reverend Ian Paisley over Ireland (against the Anglo-Irish agreement) to Mark Francoise and Steve Baker during Covid (against public health measures).  As for your last sentence you must be a bloody awful bloke Johnno!   

[TepidT2O]

I'm wondering if it's the latest meme going around social media, like "Keith". Not being on Facebook or twitter myself, I only get to see these memes when people start using them here.

Don’t know, I’m not really interested in what those people in social media have to say.  They had their time, they lost two elections, delivering the worst election defeat for Labour for 80 odd years.  The public spoke.  Many seem to have quit the Labour Party in disgust at …something

For me, they’re the past, just as Blairites are. Forwards not backwards, listen to the public and ask why you lost, don’t berate them for their stupidity.  Learn from your mistakes and pitch something people want.  I’m not sure we’re doing a brilliant job at that, but it seems some lessons have been learned anyway.

[vivabobbygraham]

Because I judge the bloke to be a fraud is why. He's no Leader !! More an apologist than a Leader. With all the ammo he's had on his plate these last 2 years, he should have had BoJo hung drawn and slaughtered and out of the house by now.

You've got it all wrong. It's all part of the master plan. Play possom, rope a dope, let the fucking buffoon punch himself out, let him give the leader of the labour party a regular kicking at the dispatch box and beyond. Appease every fucker, write for the scum, fuck those scouse c*nts, they'll vote for us anyway, we've got to get scum readers on board. We need to get elected at all costs. You really do need to get with the programme, Johnno, lad. Don't be bringing your Corbyn sympathies here. He's responsible for all the problems we have in this Country with his anti semitism and brexiteerism. Leave it to Sir Keir

[Sangria]

Don’t know, I’m not really interested in what those people in social media have to say.  They had their time, they lost two elections, delivering the worst election defeat for Labour for 80 odd years.  The public spoke.  Many seem to have quit the Labour Party in disgust at …something

For me, they’re the past, just as Blairites are. Forwards not backwards, listen to the public and ask why you lost, don’t berate them for their stupidity.  Learn from your mistakes and pitch something people want.  I’m not sure we’re doing a brilliant job at that, but it seems some lessons have been learned anyway.

It's just that I have a reflexive suspicion of anything or anyone that smells of social media politics, after what Cambridge Analytica had got up to. I think that our democracy has gone to shit, because of how the mainstream media and politics have become one. But as CA has shown, the closed groups of social media are far worse. And every time I see something of that sort appear, I think, what have I missed this time, how much has already been decided that I don't know about?

[vivabobbygraham]

It's just that I have a reflexive suspicion of anything or anyone that smells of social media politics, after what Cambridge Analytica had got up to. I think that our democracy has gone to shit, because of how the mainstream media and politics have become one. But as CA has shown, the closed groups of social media are far worse. And every time I see something of that sort appear, I think, what have I missed this time, how much has already been decided that I don't know about?

You're getting far too paranoid, pal. Just join the blame Corbyn Alliance. There's you real CA

[Sangria]

You're getting far too paranoid, pal. Just join the blame Corbyn Alliance. There's you real CA

Funnily enough, I've defended Corbyn a fair bit.

[TepidT2O]

Funnily enough, I've defended Corbyn a fair bit.

[Red-Soldier]

Merry Christmas everyone!

Glad to see people start as they mean to go on 

[Yorkykopite]

Good news for Jews, which is always welcome at Xmas.

The comprehensive survey done by the Jewish Labour Movement (ie Poale Zion, which has been affiliated to the Labour party since 1917) suggests massive progress since Keir Starmer became leader:

Dear xxxx,

In October, a year on from the Equality and Human Rights Commission’s (EHRC) investigation into antisemitism in the Labour Party, we asked for your help.

We wanted to understand our members’ views on whether the Party has made progress in changing for the better since the EHRC report and the election of Keir Starmer as Party Leader. We had an amazing response, with over 600 of you filling out our survey.

Our findings are really encouraging. Our members are clear that progress has been made, Labour is safer for Jews under Starmer and the vast majority trust him to tackle antisemitism.

Our key findings

70% of you said Labour is a safe space for Jewish people under Keir Starmer’s leadership. Only 4% agreed it was under Jeremy Corbyn.
91% of Jewish JLM members agree with the statement: ‘I trust that Keir Starmer is genuinely trying to tackle antisemitism’.
85% of Jewish JLM members agree that Under Keir Starmer’s leadership, I trust the Labour Party to tackle antisemitism.’ 9% disagreed.
Under Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership, 94% of you disagreed with this statement and very few (2.8%) agreed.
88% of you agree that ‘Over the past twelve months, the Labour Party has made positive changes to its policies, processes, rules and culture in relation to antisemitism.’ 5% disagree.
74% of respondents agree that any complaints they make to the Labour Party about antisemitism will be taken seriously.
Because of concerns over antisemitism under the last leadership:

28% of Jewish JLM members sampled considered leaving the Party
28% of Jewish JLM members sampled left the Labour Party
54% of Jewish JLM members knew of Jewish friends or family who left the Labour Party
Our survey has been covered by the Times and the Jewish News. We’ve shared the findings in full on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram where you can share your views about the results. Look out for our Membership Officer, Alex Richardson’s, write up of the results in the Jewish News later in the week.

Thank you so much for your support. It’s vital we communicate to the Party, the Jewish community and the public, about the progress Labour has made tackling antisemitism.

We know there’s more to do - especially working to tackle the toxic cultures in some local parties, something many of you reported was still a problem. Help us continue the work that we do by making a donation to the Jewish Labour Movement.

If you’d like JLM’s help or advice on antisemitism in our Party, please do get in touch.

We hope you’re having a pleasant break over the festive period, and look forward to seeing you at JLM events in the new year and beyond.

Best wishes,

Mike Katz and Alex Richardson

JLM National Chair and JLM Membership Officer

Jewish Labour Movement

http://www.jewishlabour.uk/

[chalky52]

On the Corbyn/Starmer leadership issue one of the main replies I see to criticisms to the Tories handling of Covid e.g the UK having the largest excess deaths in Europe as well as the biggest economic contraction PPE failures contracts for mates, Test & Trace etc is that it would be much worse under Corbyn & Abbott. It came up in a Whats App group so I replied would it be worse under Starmer? There was no reply.

Whatever we think of Corbyn he was screwed over by some of his own party as well as hatchet job never seen before by the right wing press he wasn't a capable leader and he and his front bench where not considered credible for Government by the public. This resulted in Labour's worst election result in decades and a free hand for the Tories to destroy the country for 4 years. I think Starmer has changed the perception of Labour that it could be a Government in waiting.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

The press told the country not to vote labour.

Same with voting leave.

People need to start using their brains