Topic: Doesn't matter who you vote for as long as it's for the right reasons!

[killer-heels]

To be honest, I think only the true inner circle of his government from spring 2020 are doomed in a leadership race. If Truss leads a rebellion in a prospective lockdown vote, their membership won't hold anything against her. They've short memories and all that. Gove on the other hand has no chance to win either the leadership or a general election considering how much the base despise him nowadays.

Labour's only hope in a GE is that the Tories run someone their voters hate and the only prospect of that happening would be Boris remaining in charge. Once the vaccines are adapted to the dominant omnicron, I don't think covid will be much of an issue unless the Tory voters are reminded of Boris again.

Truss won't lead anything. Boris is bad but he is miles better in terms of winning an election compared to anyone else in that party. Truss will die if she becomes leader and I for one hope she does get the gig to lead that party.

I know Boris is losing a lot of support but his ability to cut through is underestimated. The guy is brilliant for the Tories.

[TSC]

Once the vaccines are adapted to the dominant omnicron, I don't think covid will be much of an issue unless the Tory voters are reminded of Boris again.

Even assuming no further Covid variants emerge we (uk) continue to rack up treble figure fatalities daily.  Who knows what the final total will be in that regard.  While we’re a couple of years out from an election it remains to be seen if Tory incompetence (and corruption) throughout will be forgotten by the electorate.

[oldfordie]

Truss is trying to pass herself off as Thatcher 2. The Iron Lady.
Shes even dressing like her with the same type of hair style.
She's hoping the Tory voters look at her as strong and decisive. someone not afraid to make hard difficult decisions without backing down.
It will probably go down well with some Tory voters but she will never bring the fear MPs felt when she poured scorn on them.
Thatcher would have tore her apart. Pro EU but never had the guts to stand up for what she believed in.

[Sangria]

Truss won't lead anything. Boris is bad but he is miles better in terms of winning an election compared to anyone else in that party. Truss will die if she becomes leader and I for one hope she does get the gig to lead that party.

I know Boris is losing a lot of support but his ability to cut through is underestimated. The guy is brilliant for the Tories.

The best outcome is the Tories replacing Johnson with one of their toxic personalities after a civil war.

[SP]

Even assuming no further Covid variants emerge we (uk) continue to rack up treble figure fatalities daily.  Who knows what the final total will be in that regard.  While we’re a couple of years out from an election it remains to be seen if Tory incompetence (and corruption) throughout will be forgotten by the electorate.

The Covid inquiry is due to start in 2022. There is a lot of shit to come out where the Tories made short sighted decisions that impacted our preparedness - and then hundreds of thousands died. Covid fallout is a huge election issue.

[TSC]

The Covid inquiry is due to start in 2022. There is a lot of shit to come out where the Tories made short sighted decisions that impacted our preparedness - and then hundreds of thousands died. Covid fallout is a huge election issue.

And doubt this will be played on top of the pops tomorrow

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/boris-johnson-the-kunts-christmas-no-1-b1777470.html

[SP]

And doubt this will be played on top of the pops tomorrow

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/boris-johnson-the-kunts-christmas-no-1-b1777470.html

That’s last year’s. This year is:

https://www.nme.com/news/music/the-kunts-boris-johnson-is-still-a-fucking-ct-number-five-christmas-midweek-charts-3122220

[JohnnoWhite]

The likely replacements are all tainted by the Johnson years. And they all lack the charisma and Teflon coating of Johnson

Charisma?? What friggin' charisma would that be mate ?? He's got all the charm of a grinning hyena.

[SP]

He has his vaudeville act that works on some people. It allows him to survive scandals that would have sunk nearly every other politician. Charisma is a handy shortcut to describe that. I am personally far from charmed by the bumbling slob, but it appeared to work on the red wall.

Whatever it is, and however it repulses you, the potential replacements all lack it.

[Robinred]

He has his vaudeville act that works on some people. It allows him to survive scandals that would have sunk nearly every other politician. Charisma is a handy shortcut to describe that. I am personally far from charmed by the bumbling slob, but it appeared to work on the red wall.

Whatever it is, and however it repulses you, the potential replacements all lack it.

Agree with this. It’s in a way pointless for those who have always been utterly repelled by him to imagine why those who are not cannot see through the act.

But the fact remains that he has unexplainable and potent political skills that attract not just unimaginative dolts, but those who should know better. It’s undoubtedly weird; there’s something of the Trump phenomenon about it, and it’s in emperor’s new clothes territory.

[killer-heels]

Agree with this. It’s in a way pointless for those who have always been utterly repelled by him to imagine why those who are not cannot see through the act.

But the fact remains that he has unexplainable and potent political skills that attract not just unimaginative dolts, but those who should know better. It’s undoubtedly weird; there’s something of the Trump phenomenon about it, and it’s in emperor’s new clothes territory.

It is like Trump. Forgetting all of Trump's views, this country wouldn't elect someone exactly like Trump because he is very much American. He is brash, cocky and all those things we come to expect of American business people (if you can call him that).

Boris is the Trump for the British. So not as brash or cocky in an overt way, but bumbling, people think he has a charm and character, believe him to be self depricating and a bit shit as we like them with their flaws. We also love a posho, even though Boris isn't actually that posh.

When you have Sunderland idiots going on TV saying they would follow Boris into an actual war, you know there is something he has that a decent amount of people are drawn to.

[Sangria]

It is like Trump. Forgetting all of Trump's views, this country wouldn't elect someone exactly like Trump because he is very much American. He is brash, cocky and all those things we come to expect of American business people (if you can call him that).

Boris is the Trump for the British. So not as brash or cocky in an overt way, but bumbling, people think he has a charm and character, believe him to be self depricating and a bit shit as we like them with their flaws. We also love a posho, even though Boris isn't actually that posh.

When you have Sunderland idiots going on TV saying they would follow Boris into an actual war, you know there is something he has that a decent amount of people are drawn to.

Which is why the best result is the Tories replacing him with one of their weirdos after a civil war.

[Mutton Geoff]

Depends how she does as a brexit negotiator,. Imo its an impossible job and she's been given it to remove her.

Lets face it there is only one practical use for a Truss:

[JohnnoWhite]

,

Lets face it there is only one practical use for a Truss:

WTF is this appointment all about? These Tory bastards have already taken us out of the BIGGEST market we've ever had right on our own doorstep - and cocked up our economy in the doing. So what is the point of this balloon being appointed to a position that's already redundant? Thanks for fuck all Tories!!

[JohnnoWhite]

Just a little quote from one of the founders of Mises

" Anything other than free enterprise always means a society of compulsion and lower living standards, and any form of socialism strictly enforced means dictatorship and the total state."

Care to pick the bones out of that one?

Llewelyn H Rockwell jr

Does it bollux!! It simply means regulating the "market" in favour of the greatest good for the greatest number. It precludes the poor being excluded by the purchasing power of the rich!

[Sangria]

Does it bollux!! It simply means regulating the "market" in favour of the greatest good for the greatest number. It precludes the poor being excluded by the purchasing power of the rich!

Are you arguing that this should not be the case, or are you arguing that liberalism does not favour the free unrestricted market as a matter of principle? Given that this discussion, after all, stems from your claim that neoliberalism is a misnomer.

[goalrushatgoodison]

She's not engaging. But it's better than listening to Boris.

Its really not, and that's saying something.

[PaulF]

Its really not, and that's saying something.

You're right. I've just had enough of listening to his lies. His bumbling. His relating everything to kids TV. I suspect id bore quickly with Truss.

[Mutton Geoff]

Does it bollux!! It simply means regulating the "market" in favour of the greatest good for the greatest number. It precludes the poor being excluded by the purchasing power of the rich!

agreed i thought seeing as Andy linked this balloon as the font of all neo-liberal wisdom i would quote him

[Sangria]

agreed i thought seeing as Andy linked this balloon as the font of all neo-liberal wisdom i would quote him

Depends on what you call wisdom. If you mean, should society be like this, then mise or whatever they're called isn't someone I'd want to listen to. If you mean, what do neoliberals see themselves as, then mise would be an excellent source.

I'd still like johnno to answer my original question. Where does the free market figure in his reading of liberalism?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Just a little quote from one of the founders of Mises

" Anything other than free enterprise always means a society of compulsion and lower living standards, and any form of socialism strictly enforced means dictatorship and the total state."

Care to pick the bones out of that one?

Llewelyn H Rockwell jr

You think I approve of Neoliberalism?

[JohnnoWhite]

Are you arguing that this should not be the case, or are you arguing that liberalism does not favour the free unrestricted market as a matter of principle? Given that this discussion, after all, stems from your claim that neoliberalism is a misnomer.

Am I arguing that this should not be the case? For me to respond with absolute clarity, you need to define what you mean by "this".

I'm 100% challenging the absurd assertion that ONLY a capitalist market society can deliver "freedom" and that any socialist society delivers compulsion (as opposed to please your fucking self if you're loaded) and a lowering of living standards. I'm interested to explore whose living standards would be lowered. Applied correctly, I assert that the living standards of the greatest number would be better served. If the unfettered rich go-getters wouldn't like that then they could always sling their fucking hooks.

[Sangria]

Am I arguing that this should not be the case? For me to respond with absolute clarity, you need to define what you mean by "this".

I'm 100% challenging the absurd assertion that ONLY a capitalist market society can deliver "freedom" and that any socialist society delivers compulsion (as opposed to please your fucking self if you're loaded) and a lowering of living standards. I'm interested to explore whose living standards would be lowered. Applied correctly, I assert that the living standards of the greatest number would be better served. If the unfettered rich go-getters wouldn't like that then they could always sling their fucking hooks.

I wasn't disputing your idea of politics when I asked (and you did not answer), where does the free market figure in your reading of liberalism? I was disputing your claim that neoliberalism is a misnomer. You went on about personal liberties and so on in your original post, presumably that being your reading of liberalism. Hence I asked you about the free market, and to date you still haven't answered. That question and answer being central to your claim that neoliberalism is a misnomer.

Here is your post again, in case you've forgotten what you've written.

What has always infuriated me is the term "neoliberalism". It's a total misnomer. It's neither "new" or "modern" and it's 100% misleading because in no way does it assure " any NEW political/moral philosophy based on liberty, consent of the governed and equality before the law" (historically and demonstrably, in the context of Chile, that much is for certain!)

The actual reality delivers right-wing pseudo-Fascists who are 100% committed to the rule of the rich and powerful (and bollocks to the rest!) I find such an invented convolution of ANYONE'S language to be just a total charade masking a straight-forward dictatorship of the ruling class. So I judge anyone espousing such views to be a ruthless Fascist and as such, a sworn enemy of my class and my family.

To determine whether or not neoliberalism is a misnomer as you claim, we must look at the history of liberalism. Where does the free market figure in your understanding of liberalism?

[JohnnoWhite]

I wasn't disputing your idea of politics when I asked (and you did not answer), where does the free market figure in your reading of liberalism? I was disputing your claim that neoliberalism is a misnomer. You went on about personal liberties and so on in your original post, presumably that being your reading of liberalism. Hence I asked you about the free market, and to date you still haven't answered. That question and answer being central to your claim that neoliberalism is a misnomer.

Here is your post again, in case you've forgotten what you've written.

To determine whether or not neoliberalism is a misnomer as you claim, we must look at the history of liberalism. Where does the free market figure in your understanding of liberalism?

I simply challenged the usage of the 100% manufactured "Neoliberalism" as being in any way shape or form new! That's it. If you prefer it, NeoLiberalism is essentially a Toryisation and a harsher version of the original "softer" Liberal view of the free market.
https://www.bing.com/search?pc=CBHS&ptag=N1102D051218A9DFA1A1FF2&form=CONBDF&conlogo=CT3210127&q=The+essence+of+Liberalism%3F

[Robinred]

Happy Christmas to you all.

Here’s hoping for a much better 2022, some silverware for the Mighty Reds, and an end to the pandemic.

[oldfordie]

Happy Christmas everyone 

https://twitter.com/CaoimhinBelfast/status/1474512582824415242

[TSC]

Happy Christmas everyone 

https://twitter.com/CaoimhinBelfast/status/1474512582824415242

😆👏

[No666]

Merry Christmas everyone, and fuck the Tories.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/starmer-opens-up-eight-point-lead-as-partygate-takes-toll-on-tories-lzftkmw57

The findings of a constituency-by-constituency poll conducted on December 1-21 suggested Sir Keir Starmer, the Labour leader, would have won a general election with a 26-seat majority. Johnson would have lost his seat of Uxbridge & South Ruislip, the first sitting prime minister to have been ejected from parliament.

[Yorkykopite]

Merry Christmas everyone, and fuck the Tories.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/starmer-opens-up-eight-point-lead-as-partygate-takes-toll-on-tories-lzftkmw57

The findings of a constituency-by-constituency poll conducted on December 1-21 suggested Sir Keir Starmer, the Labour leader, would have won a general election with a 26-seat majority. Johnson would have lost his seat of Uxbridge & South Ruislip, the first sitting prime minister to have been ejected from parliament.

Up the Reds. Happy New Year.

[JohnnoWhite]

Happy Christmas AND the very finest for the NY when it comes to all on RAWK - and I dearly hope there's a shred of a better future still achievable for our people come 2022!

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Happy Christmas AND the very finest for the NY when it comes to all on RAWK - and I dearly hope there's still a shred of a better future still achievable for our people come 2022!

I can drink to that.

Merry Christmas and hopefully a Tory-free future for all!

[JohnnoWhite]

Amen brother!!

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Hoping for a bit more tolerance and respect and chilledness this New Year.

And I've been sucked into being angry at the Tories and those that vote for them. I've been angry at people that didn't agree with my posiiton or couldn't see what I was hoping for.

And I'm as bad as anyone. When did politics get so angry and pigeon-holed? Probably many, many years ago.

Most of us on here are broadly of the same mindset and you know what? If someone does vote Tory then that's up to them - that's democracy - if they want to vote for the Conservatives then that's their choice and their right.


I'm hoping for a bit more understanding, a bit more patience, a bit less passion and a lot more thought from myself this coming year. If I disagree with someone then so what? I disagree with loads of people about loads of stuff - does it really matter? Can you really change their minds? That's what this thread is really and I think largely, it does a great job and lets people get their point across. Does it change minds? Probably no - but I've learned a lot - does it need to change minds? Probably not.


Anyway. Here's to a New Year full of reasoned debate and understand between all of us. Be nice if the Tories could be out of power as well and that Merica can get back onto a more central footing. I've been reading quite a few politics books looking into fascism and the things behind that - in some part prompted by reading things on here - but I still think you can be optomistic and that we can get back from that brink. Got to be positive.

[Sangria]

I'm hoping for a bit more understanding, a bit more patience, a bit less passion and a lot more thought from myself this coming year. If I disagree with someone then so what? I disagree with loads of people about loads of stuff - does it really matter? Can you really change their minds? That's what this thread is really and I think largely, it does a great job and lets people get their point across. Does it change minds? Probably no - but I've learned a lot - does it need to change minds? Probably not.

I don't disagree with you, so you've got that wrong, and I demand an apology.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I don't disagree with you, so you've got that wrong, and I demand an apology.

Ah, sorry Ted

[Dr. Beaker]

Best wishes to all, and hoping for a more understanding world (and thread).

[Medellin]

Apologies if this has already been posted..

https://twitter.com/i/status/1474318111767777280

[Sangria]

Apologies if this has already been posted..

https://twitter.com/i/status/1474318111767777280

Summary?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Apologies if this has already been posted..

https://twitter.com/i/status/1474318111767777280

He comes across quite well there. Quite positive.

Imagine if he'd been able to get on board in the same way opposing Brexit, but he never could. He always looked depressed about having to do it and it seemed that he clearly was for the idea of Lexit. Obviously I'm biased because I'd seen a load of videos and debates he had about why leaving the EU was a good thing.

Imagine if he apologised and then get onboard with Labour. He would be a force to unite the party because if his fans were told that he wanted them to get back on with Labour then many probably would (You would hope)

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Summary?

The Tories are taking the piss (He actually said this) and are taking away our Working Rights, Human Rights and Rights to Protest, among other things and we should stand against it**


**Doesn't help, however, that people that opposed Brexit did so in part because they knew the effect of Brexit on their Rights.