Topic: Youth and Under 23 Thread

[Vulmea]

Great post.

It puts the stats and appearance numbers into perspective.

In saying that Rodgers could have well just switched the team around and played other senior players out of position as many previous managers have done rather than give youth a chance(carra or skrtel to right back instead of wisdom for example)  I think he done it for a number of reasons, one it takes pressure of him as our expectations lowered when we had a number of young players in the squad, too highlight the need for investment in the squad and also because he thought they might be good enough.

The academy is not in the great shape that the numbers suggest as the numbers are skewered for a number of reasons but that does not mean that it wasn't a successful year with players getting more game time in the first team , probably since the early to mid 90s if not more than then.

Spot on - I agree its definately not all doom and gloom - we are possibly in the best place we've been for a decade or more - and BR has done well by the youngsters - Rafa tried that too in his first season, even Hodgson did...I guess its part of finding out about the strength of the 'group' - its been a learning exercise all round.

[johnhouldinglfc]

Teixeira named in a Portugese U21 squad for a game against Croatia on the 2nd of June.

Would suggest that he is in with a chance of going to the U20 World Cup

[ Portugal are not at the Euro U21 championship and Teixeira is underage for the U20 World Cup in Turkey in June]

[Austin Powers]

‏@M_Sweeting
Apparently this says Liverpool and Olympiakos have come to an agreement for a loan deal for Suso http://www.sport-fm.gr/newspapers/sportday/2013/05/23/ … via @lambros_tsolas


Haven't got the link to the full article unfortunately

[superjack]

‏@M_Sweeting
Apparently this says Liverpool and Olympiakos have come to an agreement for a loan deal for Suso http://www.sport-fm.gr/newspapers/sportday/2013/05/23/ … via @lambros_tsolas


Haven't got the link to the full article unfortunately

I'd much rather if he went on loan to someone like a Norwich and learn how to play in the epl.

[Drinks Sangria]

I'd much rather if he went on loan to someone like a Norwich and learn how to play in the epl.

I'm not so sure. As much as a PL loan might benefit him, frequent first team football with a decent side with European football such as Olympiakos may well benefit him. It's all life experience in the end, is it not. It may do Suso good to be in a different environment and realise the level that's required of him if he's to make it at Liverpool. If he can go there and have a strong season in the first team, it only bodes well.

Man Utd and Chelsea have records of blooding players at reasonably sized European clubs with relatively decent results (Courtois, De Bruyne, Diouf, Bruma, Mancienne, Rajkovic etc). We may be embarking on doing the same, rather than sending him to a struggling Premier League side where he'll be out the team after a few bad results as necessity dictates. I'm not sure that's the right environment for a player of his qualities.

[iamrobk]

Would be great for Suso if he could start games in the champions league, so I wouldn't mind him going there.

[Drinks Sangria]

Only nine people have signed in the last hour, unacceptable slow down. Sign it - https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/47770

[GibletII]

A properly managed weights program is fine for someone of Ibe's age, it has to be relative tohisage and size.

Aye aye, pipe down Ackie

[superjack]

I'm not so sure. As much as a PL loan might benefit him, frequent first team football with a decent side with European football such as Olympiakos may well benefit him. It's all life experience in the end, is it not. It may do Suso good to be in a different environment and realise the level that's required of him if he's to make it at Liverpool. If he can go there and have a strong season in the first team, it only bodes well.

Man Utd and Chelsea have records of blooding players at reasonably sized European clubs with relatively decent results (Courtois, De Bruyne, Diouf, Bruma, Mancienne, Rajkovic etc). We may be embarking on doing the same, rather than sending him to a struggling Premier League side where he'll be out the team after a few bad results as necessity dictates. I'm not sure that's the right environment for a player of his qualities.

If he went to a German, French or Spanish team in the top flight and got regular games I'd say fair enough. The Greek league is a different story. The big plus would be champions league football but they could get knocked out in the qualifiers. I think if you go back as far as La Tallec and pongolle we made a big mistake not loaning them to an English team. the lads never really settled back into the club after their loans.

[Drinks Sangria]

If he went to a German, French or Spanish team in the top flight and got regular games I'd say fair enough. The Greek league is a different story. The big plus would be champions league football but they could get knocked out in the qualifiers. I think if you go back as far as La Tallec and pongolle we made a big mistake not loaning them to an English team. the lads never really settled back into the club after their loans.

The reality is though, Suso isn't good enough at this point in time to be assured of regular starts in any PL side. A move to Germany, France, Italy or Spain would be preferable, but I see Olympiakos as being at a good enough level that he'll get games and build confidence. No rush, he's only 19. Greece this year, maybe England or a top continental league the next. The changing experiences will more than likely do him good.

In other sort of Merseyside related Youth footballer news, former Tranmere wunderkind Dale Jennings is coming back to England after struggling to settle in Germany with Bayern. Still only 20, could be a good addition for a football league club.

[Fromola]

If he went to a German, French or Spanish team in the top flight and got regular games I'd say fair enough. The Greek league is a different story. The big plus would be champions league football but they could get knocked out in the qualifiers. I think if you go back as far as La Tallec and pongolle we made a big mistake not loaning them to an English team. the lads never really settled back into the club after their loans.

We never benefit loaning players out abroad, it's always out of sight out of mind. San Jose, Nemeth, Leto, Pacheco etc etc.

[Juan Loco]

Wah.

[Cpt_Reina]

We never benefit loaning players out abroad, it's always out of sight out of mind. San Jose, Nemeth, Leto, Pacheco etc etc.

That's a problem that's easily rectified isn't it?

Just, y'know. Pay more attention?

[koolkamal]

We never benefit loaning players out abroad, it's always out of sight out of mind. San Jose, Nemeth, Leto, Pacheco etc etc.

We've never really benefited from loaning players in England either. We've rarely ever benefited from any loan deals - whichever league.

Loaning Suso to Olympiakos could be good for him. He'd be playing at a club who'd be challenging for trophies (even if it's Greek league) which could provide more of an education and aid his development and also playing in the Champions League.

[Malaysian Kopite]

Wah.

[RJH]

We never benefit loaning players out abroad, it's always out of sight out of mind. San Jose, Nemeth, Leto, Pacheco etc etc.

As Cpt says, we haven't really benefited from loans full stop.
Pacheco went to Norwich before he went abroad.

And Leto doesn't really count - he had to go abroad, because of work permit issues.

[Fordy]

As Cpt says, we haven't really benefited from loans full stop.
Pacheco went to Norwich before he went abroad.

And Leto doesn't really count - he had to go abroad, because of work permit issues.

Loan players out is better than keeping then in the under 21's or youth set up.

Problem is that we're not loaning enough to PL teams.

I see no benefit Suso playing his trade in Greece. When this kind of thing happens I fear for their future at the club long term.

[exiledinyorkshire]

Loan players out is better than keeping then in the under 21's or youth set up.

Problem is that we're not loaning enough to PL teams.

I see no benefit Suso playing his trade in Greece. When this kind of thing happens I fear for their future at the club long term.

apart from the potential for more game time of course. Doesnt matter where he plays really does it, as long as he gets a good few games at a level that will benefit him. The problems for me occur whe they go and dont play. Pacheco was the prime example, something just went wrong, nobody ever played him. Must have been him. I would say if Suso went there and played a fair bit he would have done well.

[MobileBayRed]

‏@M_Sweeting
Apparently this says Liverpool and Olympiakos have come to an agreement for a loan deal for Suso http://www.sport-fm.gr/newspapers/sportday/2013/05/23/ … via @lambros_tsolas


Haven't got the link to the full article unfortunately

Anyone know if Rodgers and Michel have managed together before?  Wonder if there is a relationship there where Rodgers trusts his technical coaching and thinks Suso would develop over there and get more match time.

[SteLFC91]

Not sure if it belongs here, but this is a great article on how they develop kids in Germany. Freiburg sound like a great little club!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2013/may/23/germany-bust-boom-talent

[Drinks Sangria]

Loan players out is better than keeping then in the under 21's or youth set up.

Problem is that we're not loaning enough to PL teams.

I see no benefit Suso playing his trade in Greece. When this kind of thing happens I fear for their future at the club long term.

I think this is a massively over-dramatic statement. Suso is more likely to get consistent games at a continental side such as Olympiakos than with a Premier League team. Olympiakos will be playing in European competition and challenging for silverware domestically, so Suso has the chance to be involved in a healthy pressure-environment, surrounded by winners and a winning mentality. i can't pretend that I've seen anything of Olympiakos beyond their CL matches against English teams in recent years, so I don't know what their style of play is, but you would hope the due diligence has been put in by the people on our end.

Who in the Premier League would not only take Suso, but give him 25+ starts, which is what he needs? Norwich? Swansea? One of the promoted sides? I just can't see it. Plenty would be happy to have him, but maybe not start him frequently enough for a loan away from the club to be warranted. It's a results business and scrapping for points and managerial changes are the name of the game down that end of the table. As soon as a side starts losing a lot, they usually over-compensate defensively, like QPR this season. Who gets shipped out of the team? The young, talented Spaniard who's only a loan player and ultimately is a bit of a luxury within such a side. It's too unstable a loan. I can see the benefit of a Shelvey, Wisdom or Robinson loan to such a team, but I think Suso needs something a little different.

It's too early to say that the prospective loan (which is yet to be officially confirmed) is a foreboding sign of things to come, as he's only 19 and is within that age bracket where we could loan him out for another two seasons yet. Obviously we don't want to create another Pacheco situation, but given the faith Rodgers has shown in Suso this season, I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt and think he has a good idea as to where he's sending the young lad and what he hopes he'll achieve.

[RJH]

Loan players out is better than keeping then in the under 21's or youth set up.

Problem is that we're not loaning enough to PL teams.

I see no benefit Suso playing his trade in Greece. When this kind of thing happens I fear for their future at the club long term.

I'd agree with you on loaning out players in general. The problem is finding clubs that can offer the right combination of both playing time and skill level. There's no point in loaning someone to a PL club if they aren't going to be getting games. If there aren't the right options in this country, then you have to look abroad.


I don't think there's a problem with a player going abroad so long as it's been thought out and is managed properly.
Sometimes it seems the club sends players out because they don't know what else to do with them - in that regard, Fromola has a point with his "out of sight, out of mind" comment.

[superjack]

We should forge links with clubs that try to play football at all different levels, people like Sean o'driscoll, Dario gradi and Karl Robinson possible in the championship, league one and league too to suits lads at the right level. I think the Dutch and French leagues would be good too if we could find clubs that play good football. The standard and intensity of the league would be much better than weak leagues like Scotland or Greece where there are only one or two decent teams and the rest are very poor.

[Not too Xabi]

In other news, it looks like things aren't going so well for another of our former 'prospects'.

Jordy Brouwer arrested after a cannabis farm is found in his house:

http://translate.google.com.mx/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=http://www.omroepwest.nl/nieuws/15-02-2013/jordy-brouwer-blijft-langer-vast-na-grote-hennepvondst&prev=/search%3Fq%3Djordy%2Bbrouwer%2B2013%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D672

[johnhouldinglfc]

Not sure if it belongs here, but this is a great article on how they develop kids in Germany. Freiburg sound like a great little club!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2013/may/23/germany-bust-boom-talent

Really good article.

The difference in the number of coaches is staggering.

Also the difference between 34 hours versus 9 hours of education is very depressing when you take into account just how little chance an Academy player has of making it as a professional.

[farawayred]

Why can't we just register a youth side called Melwood or something (to avoid Liverpool-B), register them in the Blue Square and start climbing the ranks...

[Juan Loco]

Why can't we just register a youth side called Melwood or something (to avoid Liverpool-B), register them in the Blue Square and start climbing the ranks...

I'm pretty sure there's 7 tiers of football they'd have to climb even before they got into the Blue Square.

[farawayred]

I'm pretty sure there's 7 tiers of football they'd have to climb even before they got into the Blue Square.

An academic question, and perhaps that's not the place to ask, but in 2002 AFC Wimbledon started from the 9ht tier of English football, not from the very bottom of the pyramid (which is 20-something levels?). Can a similar thing be done in theory with any new team?

[johnhouldinglfc]

An academic question, and perhaps that's not the place to ask, but in 2002 AFC Wimbledon started from the 9ht tier of English football, not from the very bottom of the pyramid (which is 20-something levels?). Can a similar thing be done in theory with any new team?

I don't know about the exact rules for new clubs but it doesnt matter as there are rules prohibiting FSG from owning two clubs in England.

The guy who owns Watford owns Udinese and Granada, loaned Watford 11 players this season (7 of them internationals) but the Football League is expected to bring in plans this summer to clamp down on this.

[Sgt. Pepper]

An academic question, and perhaps that's not the place to ask, but in 2002 AFC Wimbledon started from the 9ht tier of English football, not from the very bottom of the pyramid (which is 20-something levels?). Can a similar thing be done in theory with any new team?

AFC Liverpool are in the 9th tier. I don't know if the rules allow this but maybe we can somehow help them out financially until they enter the football league, not overtaking and managing because they won't have it, then loan as many as we can to them or sell at a low price with a low buy-back clause.

[farawayred]

AFC Liverpool are in the 9th tier. I don't know if the rules allow this but maybe we can somehow help them out financially until they enter the football league, not overtaking and managing because they won't have it, then loan as many as we can to them or sell at a low price with a low buy-back clause.

AFC Wimbledon are currently in League Two (4th tier), survived by the skin of their teeth (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/league-two). I monitored with sadness the club's split even though I have no connection with it; it just felt like a loss for the general fan.

Anyway, I just wondered how a team can be included in a given tier. The football league will only take teams from the Blue Square, which (I think) will take a team from the next tier, comprised from a  umber of leagues in parallel. Participation in these leagues, I'm led to believe, is negotiable. This could be wrong, but if not, would the owners be able to negotiate?

I don't know about the exact rules for new clubs but it doesnt matter as there are rules prohibiting FSG from owning two clubs in England.

The guy who owns Watford owns Udinese and Granada, loaned Watford 11 players this season (7 of them internationals) but the Football League is expected to bring in plans this summer to clamp down on this.

I believe that the ownership restriction applies for teams competing in the same competition. Until the 2nd team reaches the PL this should not be a problem except in the cups. Maybe this is what the Football League is trying to curb...

[johnhouldinglfc]

I believe that the ownership restriction applies for teams competing in the same competition. Until the 2nd team reaches the PL this should not be a problem except in the cups. Maybe this is what the Football League is trying to curb...

Nope from what i've seen the authorities are more concerned about protecting the integrity of the league.

Basically they are staying Watford are competing unfairly through the use of excessive international loans.

The FA do not want any sort of B teams from big clubs lower down the leagues.

The notion of a Liverpool B team is a non-runner for the forseeable future. If you look at how it has worked in Spain, it has benefitted Barcelona and Real but that has only ended up damaging the league overall.

[superjack]

If you look at how it has worked in Spain, it has benefitted Barcelona and Real but that has only ended up damaging the league overall.

How do you work that out. Barcelona b and Real Madrid b (Castillo) can't promote to the top flight they are bounce between the second and third flights and are usually a struggling team in the second tier. When they meet there derbies are big affairs and it where most of there stars start playing in a professional league. The single reason why there is the assumption that the Spanish league is a weaker league to the epl is to do with tv money. 90% go to barca and Real Madrid and as they are the clubs people want to watch in Spain and worldwide it's hard to argue in many ways. If the same rules were employed in the epl lfc and Man U would get big shares and not the shared dividend that the likes of stoke etc get that leads to the costs of english based players being greatly inflated.

[Sgt. Pepper]

If he went to a German, French or Spanish team in the top flight and got regular games I'd say fair enough. The Greek league is a different story. The big plus would be champions league football but they could get knocked out in the qualifiers. I think if you go back as far as La Tallec and pongolle we made a big mistake not loaning them to an English team. the lads never really settled back into the club after their loans.

Sahin, at Suso's age, spent a year on-loan at Feyenoord. Eredivisie is stronger than the Greek league but both aren't really the German, French or Spanish leagues.

[El Lobo]

Just had an email back from the media contact at Next-Gen, and he's confirmed they are continuing the tournament next season.

[Drinks Sangria]

I believe that the ownership restriction applies for teams competing in the same competition. Until the 2nd team reaches the PL this should not be a problem except in the cups. Maybe this is what the Football League is trying to curb...

That's not correct. In this instance, the 'competition' counts as any level of the football league. As soon as any 'Liverpool B' or 'Melwood' or whatever were to enter League Two, they'd immediately be ineligible. It's not a matter of picking the right name or using subsidiaries as owners, they'd easily be linked back to us due to the relative financial transparency that has to be adhered to by football league and Premier League Clubs.

It just won't happen. We can become a parent club to an existing team, but not create an entirely new club for this to happen. It just wouldn't fly. As soon as we did it, Chelsea, City et al would want in on the act and suddenly you've the need to accommodate six or seven new sides into the non-league structure. Plus, how many years would it take for a side to get anywhere near the football league? Is it really worth a exposing various youngsters to a decade of non-league football against semi-pro sloggers that are miles below the level of the U-21 league. Unless you can get a side into the Blue Square/ Football league, it's a waste of time and resources.

Crewe would be a good side to approach in regards to a parent-club structure. They're a side that plays the same system at all levels of the club, a system similar to our own. They've also been hugely prolific at producing young talent down the years. Platt, Murphy, Ashton, Jones etc and in recent years Powell has gone to Man Utd, Westwood to Aston Villa and they've Luke Murphy, Harry Davis and Max Clayton who all look like they could cut it at Premier League level.

[kopitecrash]

Just had an email back from the media contact at Next-Gen, and he's confirmed they are continuing the tournament next season.

  Great News.

[B0151?]

wooo jack robbo in the u21 team after shaw withdraws

[B0151?]

If you look at how it has worked in Spain, it has benefitted Barcelona and Real but that has only ended up damaging the league overall.

not sure that's true

obviously the number that still break through at real and barca is still really small, but it means there are plenty of young lads with an ideal launch pad for their professional career, which benefits spanish footy as a whole.

plus real and barca don't have the only b teams ya know, every team with a reserve team plays in the same pyramid

[Juan Loco]

wooo jack robbo in the u21 team after shaw withdraws

He's got a good chance of playing a fuckton of games given Pearce's preference for picking as many left backs as possible in one team.