Topic: The Klopp Template - Like something you'd see on a Utd or Everton forum

[Al 666]

Well you don't make much sense here because if it's klopps system then that's his coaching as well.  To fit in to the system you have to be coached in to your role within that system so you are contradicting yourself. It's not just talent.  Because there are loads of talented footballers out there however with quality coaching there ability can only take them so far.

Personally I think it is about a combination of things. You need a system that you can get players to buy in to. You need coaching that brings out the best in both the system and the players but above all you need quality players.

I think the clearest example of that is not Club football but International Football. An environment in which you can't solve your problems by dropping in a Becker or VVD. The most successful teams tend to be the most rounded teams. The ones without clear weaknesses. That for me shows it isn't about systems or coaching but the players you have at your disposal.

[BrandoLFC]

Not sure why this is even up for debate.  You can have a one off season but on the whole without the money you're not winning anything.  Have Pep go manage Sunderland for instance, he may get some players to make a leap of faith but unless they start paying more he's not going to go far.  We focus so much on net spend but our wage bill has dramatically risen since Klopp arrived as well to where I think it's now top 6 in world football or thereabouts?   Without that type of commitment you're not going to be as successful as you otherwise could.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Well you don't make much sense here because if it's klopps system then that's his coaching as well.  To fit in to the system you have to be coached in to your role within that system so you are contradicting yourself. It's not just talent.  Because there are loads of talented footballers out there however with quality coaching there ability can only take them so far.

No, I'm not.


To fit into the system, you have to have the right levels of technical, tactical, physical and mental ability that the system demands.

Joe Cole would collapse in Klopp's system.

[keyop]

I tried replying to your original point but couldn't word it right so I scrapped it. I'll try again... I agree with the thrust of what you were saying. Certain rivals (I know, who cares, but still...) have to do what they can to devalue our success for their own reasons. One angle of attack is to say we have simply bought success. Like you, I feel this is inaccurate regardless of the fees for VVD and Becker.

The likes of Abu Dhabi and Chelsea can buy levels of success they would never have had otherwise with money gifted to them which has not been raised via the game / football industry itself. This is very different to being a well run, self-sustaining club purchasing quality players with money they have earned via player sales, matchday revenue, commercial sponsorships and merchandise. Every club has to spend, but only a certain few can spend what they like, when they like, because their money does not actually come from football itself. That is buying success.

Clubs like Liverpool have a limited budget. A monstrously big budget by by the standards of the ordinary person on the street, but still limited by football standards. We have to use the money we spend wisely, and we have to have a manager and staff that can bring the very best out of the players we bring in. Klopp is a man who gets the extra mile out of players. He is a great manager and a fantastic people person. Like Shankly before him, Klopp makes everyone, including the tea lady, feel ten feet tall. The extra he gets out of people cannot be underestimated.

Yes, Liverpool have spent, but they haven't simply bought and bought with unlimited and unearned funds until they got it right. Liverpool spent what they earned, and spent it well. That's only half the battle though. The manager has to put together a cohesive team that knows exactly what he wants from them. He has to put it all together and make it work. There are clubs out there who have spent an awful lot more than us in recent years yet who are a shambles. United lash the cash and have declined. Everton have lashed the cash in order to tread water. Rivals genuinely suggesting Liverpool have simply bought success are being lazy and wilfully ignorant. Others suggest it simply to make themselves feel better because their own clubs are useless. To them, if they can devalue our success in their own minds, they feel a little better about having none of their own.

Yes that's exactly what I was trying to get across, but you've put it much better without tying yourself in knots like I did 

I find the view of spending changes depending on league position and trophies won. Utd are now considered wasteful and a shambles, yet we're accused by some as buying success even though we've spent far less, and sold far more. It's a bizarre logic but is borne out of rivals desparate to find something to blame, when in reality we've simply done everything well and have been steadily improving since Klopp joined.

[keyop]

But my point was they weren't inconsistent, whether you called them good or whatever wasn't what I was arguing. . Whether he's consistent or Soton or at Liverpool, doesn't matter, he was consistent.

Now if we're talking about different levels of quality needed to be successful at this club sure, however consistency wasn't an issue. If you don't have the talent you cant improve, no matter what kind of coach you have. The ability and talent has to be there for the coaching to make an impact, but it ultimately comes down on the ability and the player.

Yes, perhaps inconsistent was the wrong choice of word. Unpolished was the main point I tried to make, and also the fact that other managers have spent more only for those players to stagnate (or even go backwards), whereas Klopp has almost without exception made every player better - in some cases dramatically so.

[keyop]

Not sure why this is even up for debate.  You can have a one off season but on the whole without the money you're not winning anything.  Have Pep go manage Sunderland for instance, he may get some players to make a leap of faith but unless they start paying more he's not going to go far.  We focus so much on net spend but our wage bill has dramatically risen since Klopp arrived as well to where I think it's now top 6 in world football or thereabouts?   Without that type of commitment you're not going to be as successful as you otherwise could.

I think the reason it's up for debate and is so important is because the footballing landscape has changed so much since Chelsea, PSG and City bought success.

The player fees are reaching a point where I don't think they can go much higher before either FFP bites, or teams simply can't afford it and won't pay. That would mean that buying cheaper players and improving them becomes the difference maker instead of just money, which is what I think Klopp's template is all about.

[Bjornar]

Yes. Systems don't win you games, players do. Systems are just the organisation and principles of play that gives the team direction. Don't confuse the "system" with the "coach", though. Simeone subscribes to much the same principles as Hodgson, but obviously gets better return for his work. On top of that, we can't just talk "systems", we also have to talk "training", and some training methods are better than others. In fact, it would be more accurate to say that "Not all training methods are good and valid" rather than the same maxim for "systems of play"

Fair enough, I take that on board, and I suppose in some ways nothing is really new under the sun. But at the same time, the game surely is evolving tactically all the time (even if the basics are constant), and it's possible to either lag behind or be at the forefront of that. So what I'm getting at is that with us at the moment it's the latter, which is a great help for the players we are signing.

[ScouserAtHeart]

Bit refreshing that the debate has gone from "are we good" to "what's the reason for us being good"

[Dim Glas]

State of this thread title, it's like something you'd see on a Man Utd or Everton forum.

[him_15]

Don't really care what the other fans say about our spending and such, I am just enjoying the best of us.

[PhaseOfPlay]

State of this thread title, it's like something you'd see on a Man Utd or Everton forum.

Better?

[Asam]

Personally I think it is about a combination of things. You need a system that you can get players to buy in to. You need coaching that brings out the best in both the system and the players but above all you need quality players.

I think the clearest example of that is not Club football but International Football. An environment in which you can't solve your problems by dropping in a Becker or VVD. The most successful teams tend to be the most rounded teams. The ones without clear weaknesses. That for me shows it isn't about systems or coaching but the players you have at your disposal.

Erm that for me shows it's the system and not the players, you play the best players for the system, not the most talented individual who don't fit into a coherent plan, Greece winning the Euros is a perfect example of this

[Yosser0_0]

Klopp overtakes Bob Paisley's win ratio and moves to 57.67% after the win today, there is only Kenny Dalglish ahead of him now with 60.91%. A truly remarkable achievement in the modern game given the team that he inherited and in such a short period of time too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Liverpool_F.C._managers

[sms1986]

Klopp overtakes Bob Paisley's win ratio and moves to 57.67% after the win today, there is only Kenny Dalglish ahead of him now with 60.91%. A truly remarkable achievement in the modern game given the team that he inherited and in such a short period of time too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Liverpool_F.C._managers

That's brilliant, he really is a genius and I'm so glad he's our manager.

[afc turkish]

No, I'm not.


To fit into the system, you have to have the right levels of technical, tactical, physical and mental ability that the system demands.

Joe Cole would collapse in Klopp's system.

Too many stogies, Cole pretty much collapses in any coach's system...

[Red Berry]

It's still far too early to call, but I'm not sure we've had successive title challenges since the 80s?

When you look back at our one off challenges, we usually followed up the following year by wasting money on sub standard players, and or losing quality players we already had.  This year we've not added significantly, but we didn't really lose anybody we didn't want to let go of either. 

Just shows how important maintaining squad consistency is.