Topic: Youth and Under 23 Thread

[Maldini]

United played in the champions league and won the premiership and had lots of players on loan in the championship. there is no way they are looking at our academy in envy.

One of the best pieces of advice I was ever given was to never argue with an idiot so I'm just going to let that mind-numbingly stupid post sit there.

[superjack]

One of the best pieces of advice I was ever given was to never argue with an idiot so I'm just going to let that mind-numbingly stupid post sit there.

You can have a discussion only insult. A team trying to win the league and play in the champions league don't find many opportunities to blood kids compared to a team that finished 7th and played in the Europa league. You can't compare the two so your stats don't have a comparison and this renders them with out any value. United had lots of players on loan in the championship we only one u21 in the championship and that was only for a couple of months. You comment about united looking at our academy with envy is the sort of short sighted, self loving and utter rubbish that is constant peddled on these pages by people that think our academy is barcas.

[Gitsy606]

None of those you mentioned will ever be regulars for United. They sell players for millions because Ferguson gives them a few games, the hype machine rumbles into action and suddenly they're great players. The majority of the players they've sold to The Championship in the last few years have been flops.

Our u-21 players (not including the likes of Coutinho, Shelvey or Pacheco) made 95 appearances between them this season. United's made 17 and most of those were in the early rounds of the league cup. We've over a dozen lads with a good chance of making it to our first team over the next two years....they've 2 or 3 with an outside chance of making it.

There is only one team looking enviously at the other's youth setup.

If out of the dozen players, we get 2 players to be regulars for the first team it will have been a huge success.

Alot will depend on the state of the first team but I really cannot see us all of a sudden producing 5-6 players similar to what United did in the early 90's, it just doesn't happen.

I hope I'm wrong and we can maximise the numbers coming through, if at a minimum our youth team can provide the first team with reliable squad players, the academy will have done a decent job.

[youll never walk alone it]

superjack?  uniteds?  which united?   newcastle?  sheffield?   leeds? confused.

[an fear dearg]

A question for those in the know about sports science and stuff of that nature,

Regarding Ibe,

he is bulit like a mountain and has clearly been putting in some serious gym work,
 however when i was his age the wisdom of the time that was not to bulk up until you are 18 as it would stunt your growth and leave you more prone to injury as well as affecting pace.

Is any of that true? Has there been a change in thinking?

A properly managed weights program is fine for someone of Ibe's age, it has to be relative tohisage and size.

[Cpt_Reina]

I hope I'm wrong and we can maximise the numbers coming through, if at a minimum our youth team can provide the first team with reliable squad players, the academy will have done a decent job.

It will, but it seems that for all of Superjack's whinging about being 'realistic' that he doesnt deem that be up to scratch.

We simply will not produce a team full of first team players every single year, or two, or five. It just doesnt happen.

But it reads like anything other than that would be considered as a failure to some.

Barca are often held up as the benchmark, cos they've gone right to the pinnacle of the game with a lot of academy players.

But Xavi isnt from the same graduating class of La Masia as Valdes, who in turn is not from the same year as Messi. Who was a couple of years behind Iniesta.

They're assembled (largely) as a team of the very best individual players from every age group. Rather than one giant influx in to the team.

You simply dont get team after team, generation after generation of players moving up in to the first team. Anywhere. How the fuck would you even make room for them all?

Nobody in here has suggested we're on par with Barca, nobody. But that we are seeing young players come all the way through is something to be celebrated.

[superjack]

superjack?  uniteds?  which united?   newcastle?  sheffield?   leeds? confused.

Manures

[Vurt]

No idea how we compare to Utds, or Barca's academy, but to be honest I don't really care.  All we can do is improve, and as far as I can remember, we've had more young players hitting the first team and not looking out of place this year than any year since I've been watching the youth teams. 

And not just by a small margin, by an absolute mile.

Whether its coaching, or a better scouting and recruitment, whatever, we're getting better.  That's what I;m happy with.  If we're not up there with whoever, fine.  All we can do is make progress, and surely its hard to make much of a case that we haven't at least done that this year.

[superjack]

Good post capt. To clarify I'm not expecting up to produce 4-5 players per seaon or anything of the like. I am talking about producing players that play regularly for our first team and are good enough enough to play in a top4 side and champions league team. We simply have not done that since the creation of the academy in 1998 the only player close to that standard is martin Kelly. So in 15 years we have produced maybe one player at the most. We seem to be celebrating players getting games ina midtable team and Europa league group stage. Spurs played countless kids as did Newcastle in there Europa groups yet no one saying either has an excellent academy. It was great that suso, sterling And wisdom got game time but if we were a top 4 side only sterling at best would have got fleeting appearance and quite possible none at all. I don't think we should be celebrating Ibe playing in a dead rubber or kids making up the numbers in the Europa league. We need to produce top quality players from our academy that are capable of the step up and able to stay there. Carra was asked for his thought about wisdom and coady stepping up from the academy and he said the most important thing is that you need to be good enough.

[El Lobo]

You can have a discussion only insult. A team trying to win the league and play in the champions league don't find many opportunities to blood kids compared to a team that finished 7th and played in the Europa league. You can't compare the two so your stats don't have a comparison and this renders them with out any value. United had lots of players on loan in the championship we only one u21 in the championship and that was only for a couple of months. You comment about united looking at our academy with envy is the sort of short sighted, self loving and utter rubbish that is constant peddled on these pages by people that think our academy is barcas.

What the fuck are you on about?!

They've had four games since they won the title, their CL group was Galatasaray, Cluj and Braga and they also had more games in the League Cup and FA Cup.

What is your point exactly...? Apart from the obvious our academy isnt as good as we think and Yerniteds is sensational?

They've had lots of players on loan in the Championship.... Well blow me if that doesn't prove their academy is brilliant.

Brady and King have since left permanently.
Keene has done well at Leicester
Amos had his loan at Hull terminated
Lingaard was awful at Leicester and had his terminated
Petrucci played three times for Peterborough
Wootton played once for Peterborough
Tunnicliffe played once for Barnsley
Reece Brown played once for Ipswich

Jay Spearing was Boltons POTY
Jack Robinson was Wolves best player in the short time he was there

What do we win? Or is it purely quantity?

[superjack]

No idea how we compare to Utds, or Barca's academy, but to be honest I don't really care.  All we can do is improve, and as far as I can remember, we've had more young players hitting the first team and not looking out of place this year than any year since I've been watching the youth teams. 

And not just by a small margin, by an absolute mile.

Whether its coaching, or a better scouting and recruitment, whatever, we're getting better.  That's what I;m happy with.  If we're not up there with whoever, fine.  All we can do is make progress, and surely its hard to make much of a case that we haven't at least done that this year.

Our first team has got worse did you take that into account and if we are not measuring ourselves vs the best now. We will wonder in 5 years why we didnt produce any great players. I am sick of the argument that we don't expose our players so we don't get any sell on fee. We have produced lots of raven's and darbys while man united have produce bardsleys, richardsons etc. one are lower league players and other are lower epl players. There is a massive difference. If it was simply from under exposure then they would climb the leagues. But instead they are a certain level.

[superjack]

What the fuck are you on about?!

They've had four games since they won the title, their CL group was Galatasaray, Cluj and Braga and they also had more games in the League Cup and FA Cup.

What is your point exactly...? Apart from the obvious our academy isnt as good as we think and Yerniteds is sensational?

They've had lots of players on loan in the Championship.... Well blow me if that doesn't prove their academy is brilliant.

Brady and King have since left permanently.
Keene has done well at Leicester
Amos had his loan at Hull terminated
Lingaard was awful at Leicester and had his terminated
Petrucci played three times for Peterborough
Wootton played once for Peterborough
Tunnicliffe played once for Barnsley
Reece Brown played once for Ipswich

Jay Spearing was Boltons POTY
Jack Robinson was Wolves best player in the short time he was there

What do we win? Or is it purely quantity?

JAy spearing is 24. Read my last post I have explained the rest there

[Austin Powers]

A question for those in the know about sports science and stuff of that nature,

Regarding Ibe,

he is bulit like a mountain and has clearly been putting in some serious gym work,
 however when i was his age the wisdom of the time that was not to bulk up until you are 18 as it would stunt your growth and leave you more prone to injury as well as affecting pace.

Is any of that true? Has there been a change in thinking?

Got told at uni there's no evidence for that.

[El Lobo]

JAy spearing is 24. Read my last post I have explained the rest there

What has age got to do with anything, exactly?

Their Academy has produced eleven appearances this season for Keane, Wootton, Lingaard, Brady, Vermiji, Tunnicliffe and King.

Ours has produced eighty one appearances for Wisdom, Suso, Sterling, Ibe, Coady, Yesil and Sinclair.

All players who started the season in the same spot, not in the first team plans. As the season has progressed, our Academy youngsters have featured heavily for the first team and theirs haven't. Moreover, they have had MORE of a chance to blood them what with a weak CL group, wrapping the league up with four games to spare and more cup games.

As for you trying to use a lot of loans to the Championship as proof of a better Academy, well that's just embarrassing really lad. And Spearing isnt under 21? What relevance is that? He's an academy product on loan in the Championship. Of the three out on loan who did anything, two have been sold for relative peanuts and Keane is likely to go out again next season. We have Spearing now a target for decent Prem clubs and Robinson likely to be a target for better Championship clubs on loan.

[trembles97]

A question for those in the know about sports science and stuff of that nature,

Regarding Ibe,

he is bulit like a mountain and has clearly been putting in some serious gym work,
 however when i was his age the wisdom of the time that was not to bulk up until you are 18 as it would stunt your growth and leave you more prone to injury as well as affecting pace.

Is any of that true? Has there been a change in thinking?

He's fine, you stunt your growth if you start lifting weights and such when you are 12-15ish.

[keswick]

Has Canos signed yet?

[DanA]

I am talking about producing players that play regularly for our first team and are good enough enough to play in a top4 side and champions league team. We simply have not done that since the creation of the academy in 1998 the only player close to that standard is martin Kelly. So in 15 years we have produced maybe one player at the most. We seem to be celebrating players getting games ina midtable team and Europa league group stage. Spurs played countless kids as did Newcastle in there Europa groups yet no one saying either has an excellent academy. It was great that suso, sterling And wisdom got game time but if we were a top 4 side only sterling at best would have got fleeting appearance and quite possible none at all.

Gee you're a tough marker. Sterling as a 17 y/o became a full England international. Not a lot of kids debut for England as a 17 y/o, he must of shown something this last season.


and nobody is commending the last 15 years, on the contrary pretty much everyone agrees that we were god awful until Rafa turned it around (bringing in Borrell etc) but I think we've been making progress since then and made steps further forward. We're not Barca, Ajax or Sporting yet but at least there are signs (IMO) that we are moving forward.

[Vulmea]

What has age got to do with anything, exactly?

Their Academy has produced eleven appearances this season for Keane, Wootton, Lingaard, Brady, Vermiji, Tunnicliffe and King.

Ours has produced eighty one appearances for Wisdom, Suso, Sterling, Ibe, Coady, Yesil and Sinclair.

All players who started the season in the same spot, not in the first team plans. As the season has progressed, our Academy youngsters have featured heavily for the first team and theirs haven't. Moreover, they have had MORE of a chance to blood them what with a weak CL group, wrapping the league up with four games to spare and more cup games.

As for you trying to use a lot of loans to the Championship as proof of a better Academy, well that's just embarrassing really lad. And Spearing isnt under 21? What relevance is that? He's an academy product on loan in the Championship. Of the three out on loan who did anything, two have been sold for relative peanuts and Keane is likely to go out again next season. We have Spearing now a target for decent Prem clubs and Robinson likely to be a target for better Championship clubs on loan.

Its easier to play for the team in 7th on 61 points than it was for the champions on 89 - the quality does not have to be as high - its been the same for every other team in the league - when the 'level' is lower is easier to blood kids. It means the measurement is relative to the performance of the first team.

If Northampton produced 11 kids through their youth system and United 1 what would it mean in terms of the relative merits of their academies?

[Fromola]

Super Jack is right with his points. The first Academy team we faced in the Youth Cup was Chelsea and they wiped the floor with us, so you can't say that's a good achievement. We lost every away game in the Next Gen including our third demolition at the hands of Sporting in two seasons., whereas it ended up an all-English final with Arsenal making the semis.

We reached the elite stage of the under 21s with a full strength side due to not loaning players out like other clubs. Once we did loan players out, and suffered a few injuries, we struggled a bit and were then well beaten in the semi to United. The under 18 campaign was disappointing and the Academy is still not making money in terms of any sales to put back into the team. The 4-3-3 transition has also not worked yet and we're too weak, literally, as teams score against us from what seems like every set piece.

That's not to say it's all doom and gloom. There is a good batch of players coming through (purchased at a high expense of SJ says) and some good local ones as well. There's players who've played for the first team, which is good, although Suso and Wisdom went from being regulars to not being able to get minutes in the second half of the season, which is disappointing for them.

I think we just need to make better decisions next season all round. There's much to improve on.

[RJH]

I saw a stat today (from Opta):

Liverpool named three teenage players in six Premier League starting XIs in 2012-13, no other side did this even once.

[Cpt_Reina]

I saw a stat today (from Opta):

Liverpool named three teenage players in six Premier League starting XIs in 2012-13, no other side did this even once.

What a fucking shambles!

[keswick]

Sergi Canos at the academy

[Fauxy]

Anyone know what this Canos lad is like ?

All i know is he was very highly rated by Barca and that he turned down Man City and Inter to join us..

That and I watched an old youtube clip of him dribbling around players for fun.

[Gitsy606]

I saw a stat today (from Opta):

Liverpool named three teenage players in six Premier League starting XIs in 2012-13, no other side did this even once.

Deadly!

[Gifted Right Foot]

I don't know but I look forward to some people calling him shit and criticising his every misplaced pass on here.

[superjack]

What a fucking shambles!

2 draws and a win too. I think it was more an example of not having a strong squad than the kids beside sterling earning their opportunity because they are better than the first team players.

Just to show stats can prove anything. See the link.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/blogs/world-of-sport/woodwork-denies-liverpool-champions-league-place-210016128.html

[superjack]

I don't know but I look forward to some people calling him shit and criticising his every misplaced pass on here.

I look forward to one half decent performance for the u18 and people on here talk about ditching Suarez and making canos captain. Balance is always good.

[Gifted Right Foot]

I look forward to one half decent performance for the u18 and people on here talk about ditching Suarez and making canos captain. Balance is always good.

Yes balance is good..

[[new username under construction]]

Sergi Canos at the academy

looks like he's having a fag

[AFX]

What has age got to do with anything, exactly?

Their Academy has produced eleven appearances this season for Keane, Wootton, Lingaard, Brady, Vermiji, Tunnicliffe and King.

Ours has produced eighty one appearances for Wisdom, Suso, Sterling, Ibe, Coady, Yesil and Sinclair.

To be fair, Cleverley and Welbeck have featured heavily in their first 11 the last two seasons.

[Jellies]

looks like he's having a fag

White shoes are common for heteros as well these days, you pig.

[KirkVanHouten]

Thread about youth teams has taken a turn for the worse. A bit too negative for my liking.

[El Lobo]

Its easier to play for the team in 7th on 61 points than it was for the champions on 89 - the quality does not have to be as high - its been the same for every other team in the league - when the 'level' is lower is easier to blood kids. It means the measurement is relative to the performance of the first team.

If Northampton produced 11 kids through their youth system and United 1 what would it mean in terms of the relative merits of their academies?

What a silly argument.

Northampton are a League Two club. We're a top PL club, as are Yernited. To suggest we're playing at a lower level so it's easier for youngsters to play is utterly wrong. We made a call to rely on our much vaunted youth. How that pays off over the next 2/3 years will be telling, but there's no doubt our Academy youngsters have had a more impressive season than theirs with the first team.

[[new username under construction]]

White shoes are common for heteros as well these days, you pig.

Ahh comedy gold

Is he highly rated then?

[Vulmea]

What a silly argument.

Northampton are a League Two club. We're a top PL club, as are Yernited. To suggest we're playing at a lower level so it's easier for youngsters to play is utterly wrong. We made a call to rely on our much vaunted youth. How that pays off over the next 2/3 years will be telling, but there's no doubt our Academy youngsters have had a more impressive season than theirs with the first team.

it is a silly argument  its called reductio ad absurdom - look it up

do you honestly think united could not have played half a dozen of their youth team players as much as we did and finished 7th? really?

do you think we would have played yesil, morgan, shelvey and sinclair upfront if we'd had Coutinho and Sturridge in August?

its so self evident as to be blinding obviously or so I thought

[bagpuss]

looks like he's having a fag

It's Kirkby ....... It'll be a splif surely.

[Homo rubrum]

I think a lot of this discussion has become a veiled debate about Liverpool's rightful place/aspirations and not about our youth, per se. 

Yes, it logically follows that the step up to a seventh placed team is not as large as it is to a first placed team- a point for United's academy.

But isn't it also then easier to be the one youth player with ten other champions then to be one of two teenagers making up two-thirds of our attack- we're back at even.


I guess my point is that, obviously, the teams they are being called up to has a large bearing on how impressive that call up was, but since we can't be anyone but Liverpool, and they can't be anyone but United, it is sort of moot.  Unless it is imperative that we come up with a way to quantify who's youth set up is better.

In which case I suggest this:

(((Number of appearances made by X youth player) / (that youth players age)) / (league position)) x (goals + assists by youth player + number of youth players progeny or barnet aesthetic on a 1-10 scale)^( this exponent is where it gets a bit tricky*)

* the equation for this is patent pending, but basically I have figured out a way to objectify the RAWK hyperbolic zeitgeist assigning superjack's unhappiness a numerical value as a percentage of pi, and comparing it to the percentage of available pies bought at any home game a youth player appeared in.  The obvious assumption there being that fans that are made up with a hot young prospect eat less pies.

[El Lobo]

it is a silly argument  its called reductio ad absurdom - look it up

do you honestly think united could not have played half a dozen of their youth team players as much as we did and finished 7th? really?

do you think we would have played yesil, morgan, shelvey and sinclair upfront if we'd had Coutinho and Sturridge in August?

its so self evident as to be blinding obviously or so I thought

No I don't think we'd have played them up front if we'd had Sturridge and Coutinho, but we didn't and they did. Yesil, Morgan and Sinclair are fairly throwaway ones as they played very rarely. But Wisdom, Shelvey, Suso and Sterling have been regulars, they've got into the side through merit and its incredibly harsh to suggest they only played because we had no other option.

Sterling and Suso were keeping experienced players out of the side. It wasn't because they were our last option, it was because they'd excelled at every level they'd played at, slotted into the first team and not looked remotely out of place. Same goes for Shelvey, who had a really impressive first few months of the season and Wisdom too.

We have three Academy youngsters (Sterling, Suso and Wisdom) who are important members of the squad. United haven't got any. Therefore, its not wrong to suggest our Academy is doing more for us than theirs is for them. I don't think that's a great leap, I don't think its being biased. To me, it seems fairly factual.

League position is irrelevant. We've seen the likes of West Ham and Southampton producing real golden generations despite being low in the table, and produced a lot of first teamers. We've seen Liverpool and Yernited in the past do the same, regardless of which side was top and which side was 4th/5th. If the youngsters stand out, they'll invariably get in and around the squad. Ours have, theirs haven't.

[Vulmea]

No I don't think we'd have played them up front if we'd had Sturridge and Coutinho, but we didn't and they did. Yesil, Morgan and Sinclair are fairly throwaway ones as they played very rarely. But Wisdom, Shelvey, Suso and Sterling have been regulars, they've got into the side through merit and its incredibly harsh to suggest they only played because we had no other option.

Sterling and Suso were keeping experienced players out of the side. It wasn't because they were our last option, it was because they'd excelled at every level they'd played at, slotted into the first team and not looked remotely out of place. Same goes for Shelvey, who had a really impressive first few months of the season and Wisdom too.

We have three Academy youngsters (Sterling, Suso and Wisdom) who are important members of the squad. United haven't got any. Therefore, its not wrong to suggest our Academy is doing more for us than theirs is for them. I don't think that's a great leap, I don't think its being biased. To me, it seems fairly factual.

League position is irrelevant. We've seen the likes of West Ham and Southampton producing real golden generations despite being low in the table, and produced a lot of first teamers. We've seen Liverpool and Yernited in the past do the same, regardless of which side was top and which side was 4th/5th. If the youngsters stand out, they'll invariably get in and around the squad. Ours have, theirs haven't.

I think BR was wrong to play Sterling as much as he did. He was contributing next to nothing by the end but did Borini's injury play a part in that?

Wisdom played because Kelly was injured didn't he?

Suso looked largely out of his comfort zone especally in front of goal and it occured when Henderson was being 'schooled'.

Yesil, Morgan, Sinclair were symptomatic of us not having another forward as was using Shelvey as a striker. We know this was a mistake BR told us it was.

So they may have been conscious decisions especially Sterling but circumstances dictated much of it in my opinion. Which is why using it to claim the academy's superiority is daft.

Playing these guys cost us points.

We have a stupid number of pro players on our books under 21 even after releasing players, more than two dozen and a full U18 side to draw from as well - we could field three full teams if we wanted without the first team and yet BR is talking about bringing in depth and quality (and I agree with him) we need 4 proper players at least.

If you can't see it requires a lower standard with lower expectations to play in a mid table side as opposed to a top of the table side then we are never going to agree - so shall we move on

[Gitsy606]

I think BR was wrong to play Sterling as much as he did. He was contributing next to nothing by the end but did Borini's injury play a part in that?

Wisdom played because Kelly was injured didn't he?

Suso looked largely out of his comfort zone especally in front of goal and it occured when Henderson was being 'schooled'.

Yesil, Morgan, Sinclair were symptomatic of us not having another forward as was using Shelvey as a striker. We know this was a mistake BR told us it was.

So they may have been conscious decisions especially Sterling but circumstances dictated much of it in my opinion. Which is why using it to claim the academy's superiority is daft.

Playing these guys cost us points.

We have a stupid number of pro players on our books under 21 even after releasing players, more than two dozen and a full U18 side to draw from as well - we could field three full teams if we wanted without the first team and yet BR is talking about bringing in depth and quality (and I agree with him) we need 4 proper players at least.

If you can't see it requires a lower standard with lower expectations to play in a mid table side as opposed to a top of the table side then we are never going to agree - so shall we move on

Great post.

It puts the stats and appearance numbers into perspective.

In saying that Rodgers could have well just switched the team around and played other senior players out of position as many previous managers have done rather than give youth a chance(carra or skrtel to right back instead of wisdom for example)  I think he done it for a number of reasons, one it takes pressure of him as our expectations lowered when we had a number of young players in the squad, too highlight the need for investment in the squad and also because he thought they might be good enough.

The academy is not in the great shape that the numbers suggest as the numbers are skewered for a number of reasons but that does not mean that it wasn't a successful year with players getting more game time in the first team , probably since the early to mid 90s if not more than then.