Topic: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD - 2023 (FSG posts = get muted)

[Asam]

But then again in the past you’ve also had the likes of Suarez, Van Persie, Van Nistelrooy, Robben, Wijnaldum, Eriksen, Vertonghen, Vermaelen, Dembele etc.

We’ve got the best analytics going and that will be able to more accurately predict whether players can bridge the gap than the scouting used by clubs in the past. Whilst there is more difficulty in predicting those who can cope with the leap in quality, the risk is often lower too as the fees are lower for the top talents in the league than they would be for the five leagues ranked higher.

if the new manager wasn’t Dutch we wouldn’t be having this debate. We would be focussing on players from Portugal/Germany/France/Spain/Italy and those already in the premier league

[killer-heels]

But then again in the past you’ve also had the likes of Suarez, Van Persie, Van Nistelrooy, Robben, Wijnaldum, Eriksen, Vertonghen, Vermaelen, Dembele etc.

We’ve got the best analytics going and that will be able to more accurately predict whether players can bridge the gap than the scouting used by clubs in the past. Whilst there is more difficulty in predicting those who can cope with the leap in quality, the risk is often lower too as the fees are lower for the top talents in the league than they would be for the five leagues ranked higher.

Our analytics may have been good but it was still predicated on signing players who had proven it for a decent time at a decent level. Alisson, Van Dijk, Robertson, Salah, Mane were all bought from top leagues and were not super young. Bobby, Keita you could question more because they were from Germany and what stock you put in that. Fabinho was from a weak league but he had proven himself in the Champions League.

[MonsLibpool]

if the new manager wasn’t Dutch we wouldn’t be having this debate. We would be focussing on players from Portugal/Germany/France/Spain/Italy and those already in the premier league

Portugal is a poor market. A lot of hype and huge fees but little substance. Like Germany, players from there tend to need time and we already have enough players like that.

However, there are good players everywhere and like I've been saying, it's up to the scouts to find them. That's why I never get the "there are few good XYZ out there " that's usually said because there are.

There are players in every league that are good enough for Liverpool. The complication is finding the ones that can adapt make the transition easily to this level with the caveat that it's easier to transitionfrom some leagues. Robbo and Gini were effectively Championship players when we got them.

[So… Howard Philips]

Portugal is a poor market. A lot of hype and huge fees but little substance. Like Germany, players from there tend to need time and we already have enough players like that.

There are good players everywhere and like I've been saying, it's up to the scouts to find them. That's why I never get the "there are few good XYZ out there " that's usually said because there are.

There are players in every league that are good enough for Liverpool. The complication is finding the ones that can adapt make the transition easily to this level with the caveat that it's easier to transitionfrom some leagues. Robbo and Gini were effectively Championship players when we got them.

And in the past Leicester, Southampton and now Brighton have signed them.

Even Moyes at Everton signed some very good players from the Championship and a 19 year old Coleman for buttons.

[MonsLibpool]

And in the past Leicester, Southampton and now Brighton have signed them.

Even Moyes at Everton signed some very good players from the Championship and a 19 year old Coleman for buttons.

Imagine signing Mahrez for £10m the season Leicester got promoted.

"Not good enough"
"We need better"
"His xG+xA isn't good enough"...

He was the PFA POTY within a year.

God forbid we sign a Kanté from Ligue 2. He's automatically not good enough but he bossed it from day one.

[Crosby Nick]

Me too, wouldn’t have to clean my own arse.

Same. Born in 78 but a slow learner.

[Coolie High]

And in the past Leicester, Southampton and now Brighton have signed them.

Even Moyes at Everton signed some very good players from the Championship and a 19 year old Coleman for buttons.

Did Gini play in the championship the season before we got him?

[Garlic Red]

Portugal is a poor market. A lot of hype and huge fees but little substance. Like Germany, players from there tend to need time and we already have enough players like that.

However, there are good players everywhere and like I've been saying, it's up to the scouts to find them. That's why I never get the "there are few good XYZ out there " that's usually said because there are.

There are players in every league that are good enough for Liverpool. The complication is finding the ones that can adapt make the transition easily to this level with the caveat that it's easier to transitionfrom some leagues. Robbo and Gini were effectively Championship players when we got them.

I don’t really buy into the idea of dismissing any market, you’ll find examples of good and bad players from every league. Outside of playing in England it really is about the player and the club they’re at. The Portuguese league has produced some of the best players to have played in this league over multiple decades, some of them didn’t even need an adaptation period.

I’d be much happier if we could go back to finding value within the league. I know it’s difficult given the collective wealth of the other clubs now, resisting the advances of the top 4 clubs has never been easier. But I’d much rather we did that as it’s proven to be an almost guarantee someone will succeed here since Klopp came.

[MonsLibpool]

I don’t really buy into the idea of dismissing any market, you’ll find examples of good and bad players from every league. Outside of playing in England it really is about the player and the club they’re at. The Portuguese league has produced some of the best players to have played in this league over multiple decades, some of them didn’t even need an adaptation period.

I’d be much happier if we could go back to finding value within the league. I know it’s difficult given the collective wealth of the other clubs now, resisting the advances of the top 4 clubs has never been easier. But I’d much rather we did that as it’s proven to be an almost guarantee someone will succeed here since Klopp came.

I already said that there are good players everywhere.

Portugal is a poor market IMO because the prices are inflated and don't reflect the time that the players normally need to adjust. 

Your time frame ("decades") isn't really coherent with this as the market became inflated recently. That's why MCO is in vogue now and why Madrid buys directly from South America.
 
Are there good players there? Of course but a club like us will be quoted crazy prices.

[Too early for flapjacks?]

Gordon's had a good season but he's not the standard required IMO.

Didn't get the hype about him when he was at Everton as he seemed a bit of a headless chicken but have to say I've been impressed by his performances this year. He's really developed. Can't see Newcastle letting him go yet but I think he'll get a big move at some point.

[lionel_messias]

Our analytics may have been good but it was still predicated on signing players who had proven it for a decent time at a decent level. Alisson, Van Dijk, Robertson, Salah, Mane were all bought from top leagues and were not super young. Bobby, Keita you could question more because they were from Germany and what stock you put in that. Fabinho was from a weak league but he had proven himself in the Champions League.

I think we have to take each player on merit and Edwards' team have superior data and analytics. There are outliers, is France a weak league? Well, Bruno Guimares is one of the best players in his position in the Premier League and I think he was bought for less than 30 million Euro.

People on this very thread were saying we should sign Manuel Ugarte when he was a Porto. Now after one poor season at PSG, they are saying he is not good enough?


I very much remember people on here saying they were not happy we signed Sadio Mane because he was inconsistent at Southampton and went missing for months during a season!!!!!!!!


All about player development as well. We've all seen Cody this season, mostly he has not had the best one but has improved of late. But what is his ceiling with a new manager who believes in his him and plays a slightly different system?

[killer-heels]

I think we have to take each player on merit and Edwards' team have superior data and analytics. There are outliers, is France a weak league? Well, Bruno Guimares is one of the best players in his position in the Premier League and I think he was bought for less than 30 million Euro.

People on this very thread were saying we should sign Manuel Ugarte when he was a Porto. Now after one poor season at PSG, they are saying he is not good enough?


I very much remember people on here saying they were not happy we signed Sadio Mane because he was inconsistent at Southampton and went missing for months during a season!!!!!!!!


All about player development as well. We've all seen Cody this season, mostly he has not had the best one but has improved of late. But what is his ceiling with a new manager who believes in his him and plays a slightly different system?

I get that, but the post I replied to seemed to hint towards a belief that our analytics find unknown gems even in weak leagues. The fact is that our best set of transfers generally had proved it at the top level to an extent. When they came here they took that up a level or two.

[lionel_messias]

I get that, but the post I replied to seemed to hint towards a belief that our analytics find unknown gems even in weak leagues. The fact is that our best set of transfers generally had proved it at the top level to an extent. When they came here they took that up a level or two.

Very true. I think we all know links to Dutch players will be cooked up by journos because of Arne Slot's arrival. I do wonder whether our committee group will allow him one transfer from that division; maybe they have good analytics on a player like Yohan Bakayoko anyway....

[Garlic Red]

I already said that there are good players everywhere.

Portugal is a poor market IMO because the prices are inflated and don't reflect the time that the players normally need to adjust. 

Your time frame ("decades") isn't really coherent with this as the market became inflated recently. That's why MCO is in vogue now and why Madrid buys directly from South America.
 
Are there good players there? Of course but a club like us will be quoted crazy prices.

Who are all of the players from Portugal with inflated fees? Enzo Fernandez was a release clause, they’d not even had him a year, Felix was again a release clause where they paid more to have an easier payment structure. Outside of that I’m struggling to work out whose fee was too much? Ruben Dias was instantly one of the best defenders in the league when he came, Bruno Fernandes was instantly one of the best midfielders when he came. Darwin’s fee was only ‘inflated’ because he plays as a goal scoring 9, by far the most premium position on the market, if another striker came through with his skill set and scored vs all of those top sides in Europe, there’s probably not a club out there that wouldn’t start the conversation at €100m, and if they haven’t played in the premier league they’ll need the better part of a year to settle down, unless you’re a freak like Haaland.

Tell me a league that factors in the time needed to adjust for the price? You’re basically looking at leagues like Austria, Belgium etc We paid a similar fee for Gakpo as we paid for Diaz, both were the best players in their respective leagues at the time, both were pretty fair prices given their output, status and abilities. The Portuguese clubs know their place within the market and do it well, they mainly either produce local players or recruit the best from South America, bed them into Europe and give them CL/EL appearances as a platform. Of course the big clubs will want to tap into what they do via MCO, they make a killing on players that cost little to nothing compared to what we would have to pay here. I wouldn’t stop shopping there, though, they’re brilliant at spotting and developing talent, we should always keep an eye on what their next moves are as usually one of the big three sides there is producing a star most seasons.

[MonsLibpool]

Who are all of the players from Portugal with inflated fees? Enzo Fernandez was a release clause, they’d not even had him a year, Felix was again a release clause where they paid more to have an easier payment structure. Outside of that I’m struggling to work out whose fee was too much? Ruben Dias was instantly one of the best defenders in the league when he came, Bruno Fernandes was instantly one of the best midfielders when he came. Darwin’s fee was only ‘inflated’ because he plays as a goal scoring 9, by far the most premium position on the market, if another striker came through with his skill set and scored vs all of those top sides in Europe, there’s probably not a club out there that wouldn’t start the conversation at €100m, and if they haven’t played in the premier league they’ll need the better part of a year to settle down, unless you’re a freak like Haaland.

Tell me a league that factors in the time needed to adjust for the price? You’re basically looking at leagues like Austria, Belgium etc We paid a similar fee for Gakpo as we paid for Diaz, both were the best players in their respective leagues at the time, both were pretty fair prices given their output, status and abilities. The Portuguese clubs know their place within the market and do it well, they mainly either produce local players or recruit the best from South America, bed them into Europe and give them CL/EL appearances as a platform. Of course the big clubs will want to tap into what they do via MCO, they make a killing on players that cost little to nothing compared to what we would have to pay here. I wouldn’t stop shopping there, though, they’re brilliant at spotting and developing talent, we should always keep an eye on what their next moves are as usually one of the big three sides there is producing a star most seasons.

My previous response should suffice. Portugal is a middleman that buy SA talents and sells them on for reasonable prices.

Clubs aim to bypass them now. Why? Because their players are too expensive.  If it wasn't,  why go through the stress of buying a SA club then have another club in Portugal??

[mickeydocs]

FSG want to buy Vasco De  Gama in Brazil.

https://twitter.com/newscolina/status/1790823235522592868

Would be nice to keep the multi club chat to the men is suits thread.

[mullyred94]

Imagine signing Mahrez for £10m the season Leicester got promoted.

"Not good enough"
"We need better"
"His xG+xA isn't good enough"...

He was the PFA POTY within a year.

God forbid we sign a Kanté from Ligue 2. He's automatically not good enough but he bossed it from day one.

Big difference in singing players for Liverpool then signing players for a team that just got into the league.

Much less room for error in terms transfers.

[mullyred94]

Didn't get the hype about him when he was at Everton as he seemed a bit of a headless chicken but have to say I've been impressed by his performances this year. He's really developed. Can't see Newcastle letting him go yet but I think he'll get a big move at some point.

I'm fairly sure they need to get a decent transfer fee in for one of their players to be able to go spend again.

I'd put in a big offer for Bruno G.

[rocco]

PSG open to selling Ugarte this summer as they don’t really play with a traditional 6. We should be all over that imo.

They paid £51m/€60m for him and he has 4 years left his contract , wonder what fee they want

[lionel_messias]

I'm fairly sure they need to get a decent transfer fee in for one of their players to be able to go spend again.

I'd put in a big offer for Bruno G.

What is Bruno G though? I'd say he's an '8' with a bit of snide in him. Similar player to Mac Allister, not the ideal defensive partner for him in a two.

I think Bruno is an excellent player though..


Surprised he is number 4 on this list to be fair:


https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/spieler-statistik/wertvollstespieler/marktwertetop/plus/0/galerie/0?ausrichtung=Mittelfeld&spielerposition_id=6&altersklasse=23-30&jahrgang=0&land_id=0&kontinent_id=0&yt0=Show

[DonkeyWan]

I get that, but the post I replied to seemed to hint towards a belief that our analytics find unknown gems even in weak leagues. The fact is that our best set of transfers generally had proved it at the top level to an extent. When they came here they took that up a level or two.

The other point of course is that Liverpool don't have the time to develop players like Brighton etc. Nunez is a case in point. If he had done at Brighton what he has done at Liverpool over the last two years he would be top of everyone's wishlist (on the presumption he would be even better at Liverpool, City, United etc.). He has 33 goals and 16 assists in 95 matches. And fans want rid. Meanwhile Joao Pedro has 20 goals and 2 assists for Brighton this season (9 in the league) and cost £30m frorm Watford last year.

To get Pedro now would cost in the region of £50-60m. But if Liverpool had spent £30m bringing him in from Watford he would have ended up like Carvalho, pushed out and on the periphery.

[mullyred94]

What is Bruno G though? I'd say he's an '8' with a bit of snide in him. Similar player to Mac Allister, not the ideal defensive partner for him in a two.

I think Bruno is an excellent player though..

I would agree but if they want to play Macca at 10 it could work.

I may be one of the few here that would have Gordon also or am I?

Not for 100m though. If we could break even or make 10m by replacing Diaz with Gordon I'd personally do it.

Gordon would get another level if he spent a year or two with Salah, he seems to really look up to Mo in terms of being a professional and getting the most out of yourself as an individual.

[lionel_messias]

I'd have to look at Bruno more closely but he is not the guy who cleans up the mess in midfield, or covers if the team are out of shape I think?

[disgraced cake]

Didn't get the hype about him when he was at Everton as he seemed a bit of a headless chicken but have to say I've been impressed by his performances this year. He's really developed. Can't see Newcastle letting him go yet but I think he'll get a big move at some point.

He's had a good personal season, no doubt about it. I feel like the biggest move he could do would be a struggling Chelsea though, unless he goes abroad. When he was at Everton I thought he'd go to Spurs but Newcastle are pretty much at their level now.

Think he'll stay on at Newcastle for now and try and be their star player, interesting to see where he goes.

[MonsLibpool]

Big difference in singing players for Liverpool then signing players for a team that just got into the league.

Much less room for error in terms transfers.

That's what MCO is for, i.e. to blood those players at another club. We can buy players that clearly have the potential then loan them out for a year like Mitoma, Adingra, Caicedo...

[stockdam]

The other point of course is that Liverpool don't have the time to develop players like Brighton etc. Nunez is a case in point. If he had done at Brighton what he has done at Liverpool over the last two years he would be top of everyone's wishlist (on the presumption he would be even better at Liverpool, City, United etc.). He has 33 goals and 16 assists in 95 matches. And fans want rid. Meanwhile Joao Pedro has 20 goals and 2 assists for Brighton this season (9 in the league) and cost £30m frorm Watford last year.

To get Pedro now would cost in the region of £50-60m. But if Liverpool had spent £30m bringing him in from Watford he would have ended up like Carvalho, pushed out and on the periphery.

We will finish 3rd on the league with the expectation of improving next season. Hence, as you said, we need low risk players who are close to the finished product. We can’t afford to drop 3 or 4 places just to give some of our players time to bed themselves in. We have players like Bradley and Quansah who didn’t take too long to grab their chances but neither were first team players. We can’t afford to buy many players who are understudies to first team players. Falling even one place next season will seem like a bad year and so we need to go forwards and immediately improve which will cost big money.

[Jookie]

I think the key for us next season is a few key acquisitions plus some of our existing players taken a leap in consistency/availability/end product.

I don’t think everything can be fixed with existing players but I do think the biggest impact may come from the some of Szobiszlai, Nunez, Gakpo, Konate, Jones making a big jump. Complement that with a few key acquisitions and we could easily be a upper 80’s or low 90’s point team.

[RyanBabel19]

Newcastle would want an absolute fortune for Gordon

[Asam]

I think the key for us next season is a few key acquisitions plus some of our existing players taken a leap in consistency/availability/end product.

I don’t think everything can be fixed with existing players but I do think the biggest impact may come from the some of Szobiszlai, Nunez, Gakpo, Konate, Jones making a big jump. Complement that with a few key acquisitions and we could easily be a upper 80’s or low 90’s point team.

My concern is the last few weeks has shown the club still lacks mentality, when it really mattered the team fell apart

There are too many players who look to someone else to do something, so adding the leadership qualities and physical capabilities is critical

Solidifying the spine of the team is paramount, we can talk about adding pace out wide all day long but if we’re conceding 40+ goals in a season and the first goal in virtually every game we play it will take its toll
even on the most mentally strong players, we have to be able to win games easily and keep clean sheets

[mullyred94]

I'd have to look at Bruno more closely but he is not the guy who cleans up the mess in midfield, or covers if the team are out of shape I think?

What about next to Endo/Baj with Mac in the 10?

Possibly against low blocks I'm sure Macca and Bruno could play in a 2.

That's what MCO is for, i.e. to blood those players at another club. We can buy players that clearly have the potential then loan them out for a year like Mitoma, Adingra, Caicedo...

Ahh yes my bad must have missed that bit but yes 100% makes sense.

[Jookie]

My concern is the last few weeks has shown the club still lacks mentality, when it really mattered the team fell apart

There are too many players who look to someone else to do something, so adding the leadership qualities and physical capabilities is critical

Solidifying the spine of the team is paramount, we can talk about adding pace out wide all day long but if we’re conceding 40+ goals in a season and the first goal in virtually every game we play it will take its toll
even on the most mentally strong players, we have to be able to win games easily and keep clean sheets

I don’t disagree with the above.

But tactical changes and use of existing players within a tweaked tactical system could go a long way in solving some of our defensive issues.

The mental side of things is a difficult one. Emotion and circumstance around this season is very different for Liverpool. The emotional side of things, which Klopp harnesses, has been ramped up to 10 in the 2nd half of this season. It’s also difficult to adjust when things look to be going wrong, the ultimate dream is snatched away and you know the manager isn’t going to be around. I also think the injuries in Jan/Feb, how it goosed the remaining players but maybe more importantly how we had to reintegrate 4-5 players coming off long injury lay offs is being brushed over as a factor.

Ultimately I think we are the 3rd best team in the league. But I think we ended up with the most challenging circumstances to overcome in the last 3rd of the season. The cerebral side of things and how we dealt with things is a factor. At this point I’d find it hard to say it’s the deciding or only factor.

[Asam]

What about next to Endo/Baj with Mac in the 10?

Possibly against low blocks I'm sure Macca and Bruno could play in a 2.

Ahh yes my bad must have missed that bit but yes 100% makes sense.

Gomes from Wolves is the one to clean up for us, we need someone who has the mobility to get around the pitch and wins his challenges

[Samie]

Orny on his podcast saying we won't be letting Luis Diaz go this summer.

[mullyred94]

Gomes from Wolves is the one to clean up for us, we need someone who has the mobility to get around the pitch and wins his challenges

We were looking at him prior to him going there correct? Or is that one of many Gomes going round lol

Orny on his podcast saying we won't be letting Luis Diaz go this summer.

Looks like they'll double wages then, didn't he ask for a bigger wage?

[killer-heels]

We were looking at him prior to him going there correct? Or is that one of many Gomes going round lol

Looks like they'll double wages then, didn't he ask for a bigger wage?

Why? We seem to like letting players get down to the final year on their deals.

[mullyred94]

Why? We seem to like letting players get down to the final year on their deals.

I thought he wanted a wage increase no? I don't rate him as highly as others but if he is too stay he does deserve more than 55k pw.

[Asam]

We were looking at him prior to him going there correct? Or is that one of many Gomes going round lol

Looks like they'll double wages then, didn't he ask for a bigger wage?

yes same one, he’s proven himself now after adjusting and Wolves aren’t in great shape financially so would make sense

[RyanBabel19]

yes same one, he’s proven himself now after adjusting and Wolves aren’t in great shape financially so would make sense

I’ve not taken much notice of him, what kind of midfielder is he? Is he good on the ball and does he progress the ball well or more of a break up play and pass it on to someone else type?

[DonkeyWan]

We will finish 3rd on the league with the expectation of improving next season. Hence, as you said, we need low risk players who are close to the finished product. We can’t afford to drop 3 or 4 places just to give some of our players time to bed themselves in. We have players like Bradley and Quansah who didn’t take too long to grab their chances but neither were first team players. We can’t afford to buy many players who are understudies to first team players. Falling even one place next season will seem like a bad year and so we need to go forwards and immediately improve which will cost big money.

Yeah, i agree with all of this, definitely want higher profile players this time around, the ease the transition.

[rafathegaffa83]

Newcastle would want an absolute fortune for Gordon

No chance he moves this summer