Topic: Number 7

[Eeyore]

To be honest, the draw is not fair. Our half of the draw has 4 previous winners with a total of 22 titles, and the other half of the draw has only 2 previous winners with a total of 7 titles ...

If you place your life on one side of the draw winning it. Which half would you go for ?

[PeterTheRed ...]

If you place your life on one side of the draw winning it. Which half would you go for ?

If I have to put my life on it, it will be on our side of the draw, of course. In a crazy season like this, the winner of the whole thing will be whoever wins our tie with Real Madrid ...

[Jm55]

Grant Wahl got his start covering College Basketball and most of his audience is Americans.  What is in the sports news right now in the US?  College Basketball national tournament where it's setup so the the best 2 or 4 teams would only see each other in the semifinals or finals while the watching public hopes for upsets and bets billions on it.  Funny thing is if a lot of upsets happen and a bunch of small colleges are in the last 4 or 8 then nobody would watch. 

Not to say his idea is good as people seemingly love draws but it was worth him posting it just to see all the UK media heads that shit all over the worthless CL group games get all indignant.  Fucking hypocrits.

Edit: I also think a Eurowide seeded knockout tournament would be way better than the Europa Conference but that's just me.

I’ve been making this point for years but the CL group games aren’t ‘worthless.’

Anyone who has been to watch us away in Europe will know that the draw for the group is really exciting and you get to consider where you might get to go to watch us, this year is a prime example of that, had we been le to go we’d have had trips to Ajax, Bergamo and Denmark.

Even if you don’t go to the games, the idea that a group stage of some of the best sides in their individual leagues is somehow worthless is just utter shite, it isn’t, and it’s something that bugs me as I read this every year. There seems to be some myth that the big teams just stroll through the group which simply isn’t the case, since we’ve been back in the CL under Klopp we’ve been involved in 4 group stages and this season was the only one which hasn’t gone to the last game, and even this involved a fairly tense match against Ajax to avoid it doing so. Of course the bigger teams will tend to go through and of course you will get the odd team who are basically qualified after 3 matches (Bayern always seem to be) but there’s also usually several who aren’t.

The opinion of that journalist, who ive never heard of, that we should start rigging competitions to get the better teams to the final is just utter fucking lunacy, for one thing if that had happened you’d probably never have got the Barcelona v Liverpool tie which I’m sure he’s made a mint out of covering.

[rob1966]

https://twitter.com/GrantWahl/status/1373293218033438725

An absolutely bizarre statement from Grant Wahl that has been pretty universally derided, but it has started some pretty interesting conversations about seeding in sport.

At least in theory, I like the idea of total randomness, particularly in relation to the Champions League. Let's have the four qualifying English teams in one group!

Another fucking idiot.

Tell you what, lets fuck the whole CL off and just play the final between the 2 perceived best teams 

[Clint Eastwood]

Just seen that Marca back-page. I hope we win.

[nerdster4]

Great to avoid Bayern and city
Madrid are obviously a good side But that Midfield can be disturbed with intensity given Modric and Kroos’ age

[Jm55]

Another fucking idiot.

Tell you what, lets fuck the whole CL off and just play the final between the 2 perceived best teams 

Quite.

The fact he’s doubled down on it and started trying to make out that it’s some vendetta against Americans sums up what a ridiculous idea it was in the first place.

[Ratboy3G]

Another fucking idiot.

Tell you what, lets fuck the whole CL off and just play the final between the 2 perceived best teams 

Why stop there? Just give the trophy to the best looking squad each year, no need for all these silly matches

[RedSince86]

An American "Soccer" journalist wanting to make the Champions League final 8 like a NCAA seeding system.

 

[fowlermagic]

Right now we dont have much of a chance of #7 as we dont have the levels of performance that are required to get all the way to the final and win it. That MAY change and hopefully it will but it requires every part of the team upping their levels from average to great. Our frontline this season has been piss poor excluding Salah while Jota is a month away from full match fitness, midfield has misfired and yet to show a consistency that warrants a Top 4 nevermind CL winners and our defense is stitched up with players off form or back ups to our back ups. If we do pull off the the wins of all wins then Jurgen is Houdini in disguise as he needs to pull a super human achievement from a team that will be lucky to hit 60 plus points this season. Thankfully anything can happen in a Cup competition and where there is life there is hope and maybe we can change things around and get on a run of form that will breath life back into this team. It will be interesting to see which Liverpool team turns up against Real as they have only lost one game this calendar year so the form book is not good for us. Honestly they are way off their best years too so we have a chance as long as we can buck up our ideas.

[Fromola]

Right now we dont have much of a chance of #7 as we dont have the levels of performance that are required to get all the way to the final and win it. That MAY change and hopefully it will but it requires every part of the team upping their levels from average to great. Our frontline this season has been piss poor excluding Salah while Jota is a month away from full match fitness, midfield has misfired and yet to show a consistency that warrants a Top 4 nevermind CL winners and our defense is stitched up with players off form or back ups to our back ups. If we do pull off the the wins of all wins then Jurgen is Houdini in disguise as he needs to pull a super human achievement from a team that will be lucky to hit 60 plus points this season. Thankfully anything can happen in a Cup competition and where there is life there is hope and maybe we can change things around and get on a run of form that will breath life back into this team. It will be interesting to see which Liverpool team turns up against Real as they have only lost one game this calendar year so the form book is not good for us. Honestly they are way off their best years too so we have a chance as long as we can buck up our ideas.

We had dreadful league form in 04/05 and terrible injuries. Also, an embarrassing FA Cup exit to lower league opposition. We did raise our game in Europe though, starting with two good wins against a well fancied German side in the last 16.

We finished with 58 points that year. Only twice since 3 points for a win came in have we finished with lower than that. We're on 46 points with 9 games to play and a favourable run in. We'd expect to hit 60 points minimum.

[StevoHimself]

Another fucking idiot.

Tell you what, lets fuck the whole CL off and just play the final between the 2 perceived best teams 

As Simon Hughes asks in that thread, how often has the UCL Final been played between two sides who are generally perceived as the two best in Europe anyway and, more importantly, how can you really identify the two best teams properly? Man City aren't even Champions of their own league. By what metric would they be considered one of the two best sides in Europe? Bookies odds maybe?

[Gaz75]

Niall Quinn co commentary on virgin for Milan v utd; both these teams have dominated Europe at different times 🤣🤣 I nearly choked on my dinner, how do these people get paid for this?

[Dave McCoy]

Stupidity isn’t confined to any one nationality.  Already said I don’t agree with Grant but I think it is taking away from the fact that there are a lot of media members that do disparage the group stage.  One non top 5 league team advanced this year, zero last year, two the year before that while 4 for 17/18 but that was almost solely due to luck of the draw.  There’s always an outlier but generally the richest teams advance. 

A better CL discussion would be if you’re not taking the top 32 teams in the world then how do you make for more competitive games before the knockouts especially as we’re about to get more of them? 

[harleydanger]

Great to avoid Bayern and city
Madrid are obviously a good side But that Midfield can be disturbed with intensity given Modric and Kroos’ age

They'll just bypass the midfield, long ball 424.

[Jm55]

Stupidity isn’t confined to any one nationality.  Already said I don’t agree with Grant but I think it is taking away from the fact that there are a lot of media members that do disparage the group stage.  One non top 5 league team advanced this year, zero last year, two the year before that while 4 for 17/18 but that was almost solely due to luck of the draw.  There’s always an outlier but generally the richest teams advance. 

A better CL discussion would be if you’re not taking the top 32 teams in the world then how do you make for more competitive games before the knockouts especially as we’re about to get more of them?

How much more competitive does it need to be?

We’ve taken qualification to the last day 3 out of 4 of the last seasons, the year that we won it, we took it to pretty much to the last minute.

This year on the last day man United were knocked out and Real Madrid needed a result to get through.

You’ve got to remember that it is the first round proper of the competing (which is seeded) so it’s always going to favour the seeded teams. There’s no issue with it currently I don’t think.

Grant’s suggestion was total shite. The CL is one of the few things in football which is fine as it is, which is a shame as it will inevitably get meddled with again.

[Jon2lfc]

As Simon Hughes asks in that thread, how often has the UCL Final been played between two sides who are generally perceived as the two best in Europe anyway and, more importantly, how can you really identify the two best teams properly? Man City aren't even Champions of their own league. By what metric would they be considered one of the two best sides in Europe? Bookies odds maybe?

by the metric of running away with the PL currently

Form team.

[Dave McCoy]

How much more competitive does it need to be?

We’ve taken qualification to the last day 3 out of 4 of the last seasons, the year that we won it, we took it to pretty much to the last minute.

This year on the last day man United were knocked out and Real Madrid needed a result to get through.

You’ve got to remember that it is the first round proper of the competing (which is seeded) so it’s always going to favour the seeded teams. There’s no issue with it currently I don’t think.

Grant’s suggestion was total shite. The CL is one of the few things in football which is fine as it is, which is a shame as it will inevitably get meddled with again.

Ultimately we did get through though and as I'm highlighting so did every almost every other top 5 team.  It's not me complaining but the majority of the UK press when match week 5 and 6 roll around and most of the games are formalities.  Nothing wrong with saying you like it as is though but they've already committed to changing the CL with more group games.  Without some type of change those bottom 16 teams will continue to just be road kill on the way to the knockouts.

[Eeyore]

Ultimately we did get through though and as I'm highlighting so did every almost every other top 5 team.  It's not me complaining but the majority of the UK press when match week 5 and 6 roll around and most of the games are formalities.  Nothing wrong with saying you like it as is though but they've already committed to changing the CL with more group games.  Without some type of change those bottom 16 teams will continue to just be road kill on the way to the knockouts.

That is sport though. Unless you go down the route of US sport and artificially level things up. In elite level sport the better competitors and teams beat the lesser teams. 

[Jon2lfc]

I actually think that the CL doesn't really become a serious comp until the QFs.

There are still too many average teams in the last 16.

Any decent team needs to get to the QF as a bare minimum.

The only exception is if their last 16 tie was against one of the form teams and/or they've been ravaged by injuries.

The big games start from the QFs onwards..

[Eeyore]

I actually think that the CL doesn't really become a serious comp until the QFs.

There are still too many average teams in the last 16.

Any decent team needs to get to the QF as a bare minimum.

The only exception is if their last 16 tie was against one of the form teams and/or they've been ravaged by injuries.

The big games start from the QFs onwards..

Every year though there is a group of death.

This year PSG, Leipzig, United. Last year Barcelona, Dortmund, Inter. Before that Madrid, Dortmund and Spurs.

[Jm55]

Ultimately we did get through though and as I'm highlighting so did every almost every other top 5 team.  It's not me complaining but the majority of the UK press when match week 5 and 6 roll around and most of the games are formalities.  Nothing wrong with saying you like it as is though but they've already committed to changing the CL with more group games.  Without some type of change those bottom 16 teams will continue to just be road kill on the way to the knockouts.

We did get through yeah, but no matter what format you use, if you seed a draw then that is always going to end up with the bigger sides tending to go through, that’s the whole point of it. What you currently have is a decent balance between keeping the stronger sides in the tournament and also making the early stages a decent spectacle. It does result in a few dead rubbers on match days 5 and 6 but there’s also lots to play for as well, in our group for example you had us through after 5 matches but the Ajax and Atalanta one as setup for a great game (it wasn’t, it was total shite but that’s not because of the format of the tournament or anything.)

[Tony19:6]

Niall Quinn co commentary on virgin for Milan v utd; both these teams have dominated Europe at different times 🤣🤣 I nearly choked on my dinner, how do these people get paid for this?

Dominating maybe a bit of a stretch, at least in Utd's case

Didn't hear it but he was probably talking about Utd getting through to the CL Final 3 out of 4 years 2007/8 to 2010/11 (albeit they lost 2 of them to Messi/Barca)

Milan were quite dominant in the 90's getting to the CL final 3 times in a row (losing twice) and again in the 2000s this time winning it twice and losing to us 

[Dave McCoy]

We did get through yeah, but no matter what format you use, if you seed a draw then that is always going to end up with the bigger sides tending to go through, that’s the whole point of it. What you currently have is a decent balance between keeping the stronger sides in the tournament and also making the early stages a decent spectacle. It does result in a few dead rubbers on match days 5 and 6 but there’s also lots to play for as well, in our group for example you had us through after 5 matches but the Ajax and Atalanta one as setup for a great game (it wasn’t, it was total shite but that’s not because of the format of the tournament or anything.)

I think you keep getting confused with what I'm saying.  A lot of UK football writers already slate the CL group stage as just a procession for the richest teams.  That's not me, it's Jonathan Wilson, Barney Ronay, Barry Glendennding, etc etc.  So I get you're saying that you think it's fine but again there are others that don't.  The CL is also going to change to from 6 to 10 group games.  So maybe there is an interesting conversation about how that would be possible to make better?  But saying "the stronger should smash the weaker" is a response as well so /shrug

[Eeyore]

I think you keep getting confused with what I'm saying.  A lot of UK football writers already slate the CL group stage as just a procession for the richest teams.  That's not me, it's Jonathan Wilson, Barney Ronay, Barry Glendennding, etc etc.  So I get you're saying that you think it's fine but again there are others that don't.  The CL is also going to change to from 6 to 10 group games.  So maybe there is an interesting conversation about how that would be possible to make better?  But saying "the stronger should smash the weaker" is a response as well so /shrug

The thing is none of those writers have a problem with City pissing the League whilst continually falling foul of FFP rules. I think that says more about the quality of sports writers more than the format of the CL.

As for the CL being extended that is down to the greed of the rich club owners it has very little to do with improving the competition.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Just a few thoughts here: 

1.  You can learn a lot from children and their questions
2.  Jurgen is always teaching -- loved this
3.  This interview opened the door on his approach to struggling players -- confidence (how difficult it has been to stay positive this year in particular)

Might be the best thing you see all day

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/f8S3E-aOPqc" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/f8S3E-aOPqc</a>

[Ghost Town]

I think you keep getting confused with what I'm saying.  A lot of UK football writers already slate the CL group stage as just a procession for the richest teams.  That's not me, it's Jonathan Wilson, Barney Ronay, Barry Glendennding, etc etc. 

So what?

[Dave McCoy]

So what?

Nothing really.  I found it amusing those those dunking on Grant are just as big of morons or hypocrites?  I also find it an interesting subject to discuss?  But we can't really have that I guess. 

[Eeyore]

Nothing really.  I found it amusing those those dunking on Grant are just as big of morons or hypocrites?  I also find it an interesting subject to discuss?  But we can't really have that I guess. 

What do you suggest Salary caps, drafts or some other way to handicap the better teams.

[Ghost Town]

Nothing really.  I found it amusing those those dunking on Grant are just as big of morons or hypocrites? 

Are they? I've not really been following this but it seems to me that people's main objection with Wahl was that he seemed to be asking for the 'biggest clubs' to have a facilitated route to the final because he wants to see them there, for no other reason than that they are the putative 'biggest teams'.

That's something people this side of the pond will instinctively balk at, (as it's not part of the culture here), even if they also criticise the current set up. It's not the fact of criticism it's the content of the crit, and hence no hypocricy seems to be involved. 

Meanwhile, my point was that the journos who may be criticising the current set up would also probably criticise whatever other setup is in place. It's just something to do to fill space. There may well be plenty of reasons for criticising the current setup, but the fact that some journos have demurred to fill their columns isn't one of them.

I also find it an interesting subject to discuss?  But we can't really have that I guess.

Don't look now, but it seems like you've had a discussion...

[Dave McCoy]

Are they? I've not really been following this but it seems to me that people's main objection with Wahl was that he seemed to be asking for the 'biggest clubs' to have a facilitated route to the final because he wants to see them there, for no other reason than that they are the putative 'biggest teams'.

That's something people this side of the pond will instinctively balk at, (as it's not part of the culture here), even if they also criticise the current set up. It's not the fact of criticism it's the content of the crit, and hence no hypocricy seems to be involved. 

Meanwhile, my point was that the journos who may be criticising the current set up would also probably criticise whatever other setup is in place. It's just something to do to fill space. There may well be plenty of reasons for criticising the current setup, but the fact that some journos have demurred to fill their columns isn't one of them.
Don't look now, but it seems like you've had a discussion...

I suppose it depends on what you view as the difference between biggest and best.  Grant's posting this because the College Basketball tournament is ongoing in which the accepted #1 team (Gonzaga) is not the biggest or even close to it.  So that's not exactly what you're stating.  I already said I don't agree with Grant's idea as people love draws for whatever reason.  With that said I think there is merit in some type of reform as basically you can almost guarantee which teams advance from the group stage almost before a ball is kicked.

As far as the writers, it looks to me that they're just criticizing an idea because of where it's coming from regardless of merit as amongst themselves they seem to have no problem bitching up a storm while offering nothing of value.  Not a big deal but again I thought it was hilariously hypocritical.  Could there be a better way to do it?  I honestly don't know.  I think there definitely could be a better way to do a 3rd tier and overall the ECA itself agrees the current system isn't good for the non-top 5 leagues health.

And yes, we are having a discussion it seems.

[Eeyore]

I suppose it depends on what you view as the difference between biggest and best.  Grant's posting this because the College Basketball tournament is ongoing in which the accepted #1 team (Gonzaga) is not the biggest or even close to it.  So that's not exactly what you're stating.  I already said I don't agree with Grant's idea as people love draws for whatever reason. With that said I think there is merit in some type of reform as basically you can almost guarantee which teams advance from the group stage almost before a ball is kicked.

As far as the writers, it looks to me that they're just criticizing an idea because of where it's coming from regardless of merit as amongst themselves they seem to have no problem bitching up a storm while offering nothing of value.  Not a big deal but again I thought it was hilariously hypocritical.  Could there be a better way to do it?  I honestly don't know.  I think there definitely could be a better way to do a 3rd tier and overall the ECA itself agrees the current system isn't good for the non-top 5 leagues health.

And yes, we are having a discussion it seems.

That isn't really true though.

Four of this years groups were close. Monchegladbach and Shaktar, Atalanta and Ajax, Lazio and Brugge and Leipzig and United were all competitive.

[Chris~]

I suppose it depends on what you view as the difference between biggest and best.  Grant's posting this because the College Basketball tournament is ongoing in which the accepted #1 team (Gonzaga) is not the biggest or even close to it.  So that's not exactly what you're stating.  I already said I don't agree with Grant's idea as people love draws for whatever reason.  With that said I think there is merit in some type of reform as basically you can almost guarantee which teams advance from the group stage almost before a ball is kicked.

As far as the writers, it looks to me that they're just criticizing an idea because of where it's coming from regardless of merit as amongst themselves they seem to have no problem bitching up a storm while offering nothing of value.  Not a big deal but again I thought it was hilariously hypocritical.  Could there be a better way to do it?  I honestly don't know.  I think there definitely could be a better way to do a 3rd tier and overall the ECA itself agrees the current system isn't good for the non-top 5 leagues health.

And yes, we are having a discussion it seems.

Outside of massive reform that addresses the imbalance of clubs and leagues, or a time machine. I don't think there's much that can be done now to stop having most of your teams advancing being really obvious. Guess the only option would have been to just do an unseeded draw to try and force more competitive groups but that wouldn't be a guarantee.  The new system is going to be awful.

[Tony19:6]

Real Madrid v Liverpool 1st leg to go ahead in Madrid (after all) at their reserve ground (The Alfredo Di Stefano Stadium)

https://theathletic.com/news/real-madrid-vs-liverpool-coronavirus/596MbfBFxHmG

[lionel_messias]

This competition is everything this season. We can just go for it and have some fun.

Without Virgil, we won't be favourites against almost anyone yet get Salah, Mane and Jota feeling sharp and we can score 2-3 versus anyone left.

Beat Madrid and we'll be bouncing. Cannot wait.

[vivabobbygraham]

This competition is everything this season. We can just go for it and have some fun.

Without Virgil, we won't be favourites against almost anyone yet get Salah, Mane and Jota feeling sharp and we can score 2-3 versus anyone left.

Beat Madrid and we'll be bouncing. Cannot wait.

Correct. Mo's in the mood to put Ramos and Roman to the sword. No better karma for our Egyptian King

[farawayred]

Correct. Mo's in the mood to put Ramos and Roman to the sword. No better karma for our Egyptian King

And when everyone is focusing on Salah doing all those things, no one notices Jota slotting a pair of goals out of nowhere... I'd like our chances even against Bayern.

[vivabobbygraham]

And when everyone is focusing on Salah doing all those things, no one notices Jota slotting a pair of goals out of nowhere... I'd like our chances even against Bayern.

Good shout

[ToneLa]

When we beat Barca it was Wij and Origi scoring so I don't panic about  the front three

[lionel_messias]

Correct. Mo's in the mood to put Ramos and Roman to the sword. No better karma for our Egyptian King

I also Sadio might be about to find some better form; he's now 5 months from having Covid and it took Trent about that time to recover this form, plus this 20 days 'break' should be good for Sadio even if he's with the international squad.