Topic: PL: Liverpool 0 vs 1 Chelsea ‘42 Mount

[Sarge]

I wonder if now is the time for Jurgen to change our approach in terms of the way we set up. With the pace we’ve got up top, I’d be inclined to play a 4-4-2 counter attacking style. Have the back four on the edge of the box and play long to the front lads. It wouldn’t be pretty but I’m starting to think we need to play uglier football to turn things around. As it is, we’re still defending high up the pitch and our midfield is constantly being played through. Something akin to a Houllier midfield four with four central midfield players working their bollocks off.

Maybe bit its been a sticking players into positions to solve our woes, if anything id like to see a 4231 approach. But i'm not a crazy German who knows what he is doing

[kasperoff]

Not finish top 4 is going to be an enormous spanner in the works. After all the building we've done over the past 5 years, to be outside of the top 4 is going to be gut-wrenching. I don't even want to contemplate how we go about finding the money to fund what, in all honesty, is starting to look like major surgery. If we are skint now, after winning the league and Champions league, and getting to the CL final the year before, then where does the money come from going forward?

[BobPaisley3]

Maybe bit its been a sticking players into positions to solve our woes, if anything id like to see a 4231 approach. But i'm not a crazy German who knows what he is doing

True but the high line is being exposed unsurprisingly. If we can scrap to win it back in the middle of the park and get Thiago on the ball quickly turning the opposition round, I think it would allow us to maintain a deep defensive shape and be a threat with a maximum of two or three runners joining the attack.

[Broad Spectrum]

Personally I don't think any of the front 3 should be sold. Jota was brought in to provide competition but the season obviously fell apart so I think we need to see how that works next season.

Also I agree with some on here re Klopps subs, watching the game I had both Mane and Bobby ahead of Salah to be taken off. Who's arsed about Sunday we needed a goal and took off our top scorer with 30 mins left, weird decision.

[killer-heels]

Not finish top 4 is going to be an enormous spanner in the works. After all the building we've done over the past 5 years, to be outside of the top 4 is going to be gut-wrenching. I don't even want to contemplate how we go about finding the money to fund what, in all honesty, is starting to look like major surgery. If we are skint now, after winning the league and Champions league, and getting to the CL final the year before, then where does the money come from going forward?

It probably has to come from selling many of the players who have helped, simply because of the wages we are on. Unfortunately finances being as such we cannot carry players who earn a lot but are not contributing.

At the moment we have Van Dijk, Matip, Keita, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Henderson, Thiago, Mane, Salah, Firmino all earning over £100k a week. How many of them are actually performing?

[redmark]

I don’t think we have a choice but to sell one of them this summer. I honestly don’t see how, with finances the way they are and the ages and contract questions, that we can keep all three.

It may be the 2nd glass of wine at midnight after losing again head talking, but there may be a case where we need to sell a couple of them.

There might, but one of them wouldn't fetch huge money and I can't see us selling both of the other two in the same summer.

[killer-heels]

Personally I don't think any of the front 3 should be sold. Jota was brought in to provide competition but the season obviously fell apart so I think we need to see how that works next season.

Also I agree with some on here re Klopps subs, watching the game I had both Mane and Bobby ahead of Salah to be taken off. Who's arsed about Sunday we needed a goal and took off our top scorer with 30 mins left, weird decision.

Don’t agree, I think it’s quite obvious that some of their levels have dropped and in the case of Firmino, have dropped for a while.

[StevoHimself]

I actually said Karius wasn’t good enough after the game against Roma when he just watched a long shot go into the goal. Pick your moments.

He was never very convincing really. Am I right to remember a bad game at Anfield against West Ham too? That 4-3 loss to Bournemouth may have been it for me actually.

[Sarge]

True but the high line is being exposed unsurprisingly. If we can scrap to win it back in the middle of the park and get Thiago on the ball quickly turning the opposition round, I think it would allow us to maintain a deep defensive shape and be a threat with a maximum of two or three runners joining the attack.

Completely agree and the vital cog to that is Fabinho back in CM.

[Caligula?]

Losing Salah during the beginning of next season due to the Olympics and Mane to AFCON during January 2022 isn't going to be ideal either.

[killer-heels]

There might, but one of them wouldn't fetch huge money and I can't see us selling both of the other two in the same summer.

He may not but he earns quite a fair bit. If anything, the wage bill is the problem and the main problem is many of our highest earners are not delivering.

[thejbs]

Weren’t terrible today. Just shite in front of goal. Chelsea’s tactics were spot on - tbf, they just need to do what every other team who’s taken points of us has done. Jota looked promisingly lively when he came on and Kabak was solid. There were positives.

[redmark]

Maybe bit its been a sticking players into positions to solve our woes, if anything id like to see a 4231 approach. But i'm not a crazy German who knows what he is doing

We pretty much were a 4231 for long spells tonight. Jones was the most advanced when we had the ball, and the one who joined the press. It didn't help particularly - but then Wijnaldum and Thiago isn't exactly a '2' made in heaven; really demonstrated up against a '2' like Kante and Jorginho. Wijnaldum at least perked up for a while after I assume a half time (collective) bollocking, but one observation from this season is that those two haven't exactly gelled together.

[BobPaisley3]

Completely agree and the vital cog to that is Fabinho back in CM.

Absolutely. Get him in the middle with Thiago with a combination of Gini, Ox, Milner, Jones playing slightly wider. A really unbalanced and horrible looking midfield but if they can compact the midfield and make us hard to play against, at least we’d have a platform.

[RK7]

Not finish top 4 is going to be an enormous spanner in the works. After all the building we've done over the past 5 years, to be outside of the top 4 is going to be gut-wrenching. I don't even want to contemplate how we go about finding the money to fund what, in all honesty, is starting to look like major surgery. If we are skint now, after winning the league and Champions league, and getting to the CL final the year before, then where does the money come from going forward?

Maybe we should look at youth development as a long term solution rather than the boom or bust approach. Nowhere near enough of our youth players go on to become top level players.

[Sarge]

We pretty much were a 4231 for long spells tonight. Jones was the most advanced when we had the ball, and the one who joined the press. It didn't help particularly - but then Wijnaldum and Thiago isn't exactly a '2' made in heaven; really demonstrated up against a '2' like Kante and Jorginho. Wijnaldum at least perked up for a while after I assume a half time (collective) bollocking, but one observation from this season is that those two haven't exactly gelled together.

And why i say we need Fabinho bak in the battle zone.

[Sarge]

Absolutely. Get him in the middle with Thiago with a combination of Gini, Ox, Milner, Jones playing slightly wider. A really unbalanced and horrible looking midfield but if they can compact the midfield and make us hard to play against, at least we’d have a platform.

Yup!

[rushyman]

Weren’t terrible today. Just shite in front of goal. Chelsea’s tactics were spot on - tbf, they just need to do what every other team who’s taken points of us has done. Jota looked promisingly lively when he came on and Kabak was solid. There were positives.

I’d usually go with you but not today

Wasn’t just last 3rd. The pressingvv bf and effort simply wasn’t there

[Dazzer23]

think the rut started setting in when midfeild started to think negatively when picking up the ball, first thought was to pass back, balls passed back and forth at the back,

Slightly random, but I watched that 30 year wait documentary on Sky again the other night. It showed some clips from the 87/88 team, which I think was at least on a par if not even better than last years team.

Anyway what struck me was how many goals came from midfielders just driving forward and taking players on, and I am not talking Barnes and Beardsley, that's what you remember them doing, but the likes of McMahon and Houghton doing it as well.

I know there's more to modern football than 'run at the goal' but I'm sick of going to bed after games, closing my eyes and the only thing I see is our midfielders passing sideways to each other

[Broad Spectrum]

Don’t agree, I think it’s quite obvious that some of their levels have dropped and in the case of Firmino, have dropped for a while.

He's played a lot of football for us and he's led the press from the front for years, honestly I just think he could do with coming off the bench a bit more. They all need some time on the bench, and let's not forget it was working well before Jota got injured. They were all rotated and it helped maintain both fitness and sharpness coming off the bench every couple of weeks.

No doubt the rumour-mill will be spewing shite tomorrow about Salah and Madrid/PSG given his reaction after being taken off.

[StevoHimself]

Its about moments in time too, Karius was our number one and we upgraded, its football and it happens but we support our players, that is what we do. I fully support players who play for us and i have since the 70s, you should do that too along with many ohthers in here and furtuer afield.

To be clear, I wasn't making any statement about this current group of players or the manager. Just that I don't agree with the idea of using unconditional support to shut down a discussion. Let's be honest, the idea of being visibly anti-FSG online over the last few years would pretty much mark you as an outcast, but I've seen a few comments on this thread that was suggest that isn't necessarily the case right now.

[Broad Spectrum]

Losing Salah during the beginning of next season due to the Olympics and Mane to AFCON during January 2022 isn't going to be ideal either.

I thought AFCON 2022 was moved back to the summer?

[Stockholm Syndrome]

Maybe we should look at youth development as a long term solution rather than the boom or bust approach. Nowhere near enough of our youth players go on to become top level players.

Same can be said for everywhere. I know very few places that consistently make top young players. Some places flare up with good batches for a while, but generally it seems to be the best crop up from everywhere. I remember at some point it was Southampton Southampton and Arsenal that were making the best young players in the league. Who is that team now?

Having said that, we have Trent and Jones who are first teamers now, so there's clear signs that our Youth Development is making inroads into the first team for the first time in about 15 years.

[Caligula?]

Slightly random, but I watched that 30 year wait documentary on Sky again the other night. It showed some clips from the 87/88 team, which I think was at least on a par if not even better than last years team.

Anyway what struck me was how many goals came from midfielders just driving forward and taking players on, and I am not talking Barnes and Beardsley, that's what you remember them doing, but the likes of McMahon and Houghton doing it as well.

I know there's more to modern football than 'run at the goal' but I'm sick of going to bed after games, closing my eyes and the only thing I see is our midfielders passing sideways to each other

There was one moment in the first half where we had the ball deep in their half and ended up passing it back to Alisson who was pressed and just booted it upfield where they won back possession.

[redmark]

True but the high line is being exposed unsurprisingly. If we can scrap to win it back in the middle of the park and get Thiago on the ball quickly turning the opposition round, I think it would allow us to maintain a deep defensive shape and be a threat with a maximum of two or three runners joining the attack.

The high line is being exposed - but I'm not sure that's our biggest problem. Chelsea took control of the game by bypassing our press and overloading Thiago and Wijnaldum. Drop the defence ten yards and that problem is worse, not better.

I agree with all those arguing to put Fabinho back in midfield, and let whichever two actual CBs are fit see what they can do. Midfield is the link between our fragile defence and misfiring attack, but we've sacrificed the balance to try and deal with the defensive problems. Well, we bought two CBs, even if one of them is from Preston. If we have any two of Kabak, Davies, Phillips and Williams fit, play them. We do need to get the midfield functioning again.

[redmark]

And why i say we need Fabinho bak in the battle zone.

Absolutely agree with that bit .

[Sarge]

To be clear, I wasn't making any statement about this current group of players or the manager. Just that I don't agree with the idea of using unconditional support to shut down a discussion. Let's be honest, the idea of being visibly anti-FSG online over the last few years would pretty much mark you as an outcast, but I've seen a few comments on this thread that was suggest that isn't necessarily the case right now.

Fair point but i do not agree on the anti FSG line. Some love to be anti FG makes them feel better and i like to call it Fifa style fans, not saying you are but some fans really need to realise that what has happened in our club over the last 5 or so years has been special.

[Jookie]

And why i say we need Fabinho bak in the battle zone.

He was pretty poor as a centre back tonight (and recently) so you might as well have him in midfield.

As much as anything I’m not sure Wijnaldum & Thiago together in midfield is a good combo

[killer-heels]

He was pretty poor as a centre back tonight (and recently) so you might as well have him in midfield.

As much as anything I’m not sure Wijnaldum & Thiago together in midfield is a good combo

The pressing of those three at a unit is just completely off.

[Sarge]

He was pretty poor as a centre back tonight (and recently) so you might as well have him in midfield.

As much as anything I’m not sure Wijnaldum & Thiago together in midfield is a good combo

Recently he has been on the recovery table. Gini and Thiago have been in the middle because we have not had anyone else to do so. Those 3 players are world class and are holding us together as best they can with a number of other players who have stayed fit or have come back on and off from injury.

Many forget when ft and able we have a pretty fucking good squad.

[BobPaisley3]

The high line is being exposed - but I'm not sure that's our biggest problem. Chelsea took control of the game by bypassing our press and overloading Thiago and Wijnaldum. Drop the defence ten yards and that problem is worse, not better.

I agree with all those arguing to put Fabinho back in midfield, and let whichever two actual CBs are fit see what they can do. Midfield is the link between our fragile defence and misfiring attack, but we've sacrificed the balance to try and deal with the defensive problems. Well, we bought two CBs, even if one of them is from Preston. If we have any two of Kabak, Davies, Phillips and Williams fit, play them. We do need to get the midfield functioning again.

I agree but I wouldn’t just drop the defence and leave the midfield, I’d drop the midfield deeper with them. Literally play in our defensive third leaving zero space between the lines. As I said, like Houlliers teams used to do. The wider players are essentially central midfielders too whose main role is to protect the full backs. When we win it we have enough quality to look forward early and get our forwards in behind. It won’t be pretty but it could make us a lot tougher to break down and put less pressure on the centre backs.

[Sarge]

The pressing of those three at a unit is just completely off.

What 3?

[Coolie High]

To be clear, I wasn't making any statement about this current group of players or the manager. Just that I don't agree with the idea of using unconditional support to shut down a discussion. Let's be honest, the idea of being visibly anti-FSG online over the last few years would pretty much mark you as an outcast, but I've seen a few comments on this thread that was suggest that isn't necessarily the case right now.

A lot of people on here would have actually lambasted you for saying Karius wasn’t good enough back then, luckily for us our management and football in general is a lot more ruthless and realistic. It’s not fans livelihoods on the line after all, support should be our first most important remit, there is a balanced to be had though especially since we’re on a forum and not say Anfield itself.

[killer-heels]

What 3?

Thiago, Jones and Wijnaldum.

[redmark]

He may not but he earns quite a fair bit. If anything, the wage bill is the problem and the main problem is many of our highest earners are not delivering.

True enough: a growing wage bill and declining contributions is a function of too many players ageing together. If it improves the team, there shouldn't really be any player in that age bracket I'd be too devastated at losing. Except VVD or the captain (one or two others I'd be particularly sad to lose).

[Sarge]

Thiago, Jones and Wijnaldum.

Ahh right yes i thought you were adding Fabinho.

[jckliew]

Weren’t terrible today. Just shite in front of goal. Chelsea’s tactics were spot on - tbf, they just need to do what every other team who’s taken points of us has done. Jota looked promisingly lively when he came on and Kabak was solid. There were positives.

Was it 0 shots on target?  Horrendous!

[killer-heels]

Also, why the fuck did someone not kick the shit out of Kovacic? Just an acceptance of defeat and giving up. Pathetic.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

I don't see what is wrong with what he's saying there John. I don't need to repeat all the various extenuating circumstances around our performance this season. I have full faith that with a fit squad and the fans back in the ground next season we'll be right back at it. But if I am understanding defacto's point correctly it is a valid one - how this season turns out is pretty immaterial but if we find ourselves sat in 7th and 22 points off the top in 12 months time then there would be serious questions asked about Klopp's position as manager.

Actually not what I ment.  I am not advocating for Klopps position to be questioned at any point. I wasn't even thinking about the season beyond this one, to me it's pretty obvious that he's done enough to warrant support as long as he's here. My wording was lazy, but I was soley thinking about the duration of this season and how it's going. Not that I don't see him being a manager passed this season, but the thought me wanting a different manager down the line, is not even in my head at all.

His position is here is certified. I'm not thinking about the next season, just about this one, so my wording reflected that, obviously it was poorly elaborated initially.

[Jookie]

My head is wrecked with this shit. No idea how big Jurgs is feeling.

Seems loads f things wrong and no simple fix