Topic: PL: Liverpool 0 vs 1 Chelsea ‘42 Mount

[RedBootsTommySmith]

I agree, we're playing shit.

I just spit my coffee everywhere. Haha, hilarious. Proper scouse.

[Broad Spectrum]

Good article from Michael Cox on our high line, and how dropping deeper could benefit our attack.

Cox: Liverpool should abandon their disastrous high defensive line

[Fruity]

I completely support the manager and players through this difficult time, however, the lack of reaction to Kovacic booting the ball against Mane’s head was unacceptable.  My twin boys who were watching the match went mental. I have seen their under 11’s team stick up for their teammates better that.  In addition, unsurprisingly Atkinson thought done nothing. That could easily have caused a head injury.  Commentators also pathetic, said it was naughty.  Nobody gave a fuck!! Pathetic.

If 5 players had surrounded Kovacic then I am sure he would have been yellow carded. I think Mane reacting on his own nearly ended up with mane getting the yellow card.
No doubt we are too nice, though that has been the case for a few years. Only thing I can ever really remember recently was Andy Robertson slapping Messi round the head that showed a bit of a nasty streak. I don't know if Klopp is the sort of person to want his players playing that way either.

[Red_Mist]

Where have I felt sorry for myself and even if I did, what the fuck does that have to do with the performances of Liverpool FC? Pray tell.

I don’t have the answers, but you’re mistakenly thinking you’re own ranting is offering up explanations. It’s not.

I’m trying to prompt you to give some explanations for us playing so shite at the moment instead of just stating a few observations (most of which are bleedin obvious). You’re offering nothing whilst criticising other posters. I’m aware I’m doing the same right here, but I’m not pretending to know the answers.

[kasperoff]

. . . .

One thing it also told me is something I've never admitted on here because I couldn't believe it myself. After we lifted the Title last season, my gut told me we'd be lucky to even make top four this season. I dismissed it out of my mind because I couldn't believe it, didn't want to entertain the thought anyway and couldn't envisage a way in which we could implode so badly. Now, here we are, and I'm cursing my own gut reactions to things. It's the same gut feelings that saw me hoping we'd win tonight, but fearing what felt inevitable. . .

Alarm bells were ringing for me when we when we didn't make signings for whole windows a few years back. It was debated and I wasn't the only one.

We didn't build on our success and took it for granted. It takes a long time for decisions like that to manifest, but we are seeing in now. We've simply rode our luck too long. Not getting quality in depth up front until Jota last summer is now proving to be a huge mistake.

Last season was amazing, but it was a freak in terms of how well we did in terms of keeping our key players fit and injury free. It seems to have emboldened us further and it's all catching up with us now. Relied far too much on a relatively small group of players.

[kasperoff]

I know it doesnt really mean anything on here....but I really wish people would stop with this. There's literally no suggestion whatsoever that he'd even consider it, all it does is start the little snowflake which ends up in a snowball and then into a giant rolling snow boulder with people suddenly thinking its a possibility, journalists asking him if the rumours are true, people asking Steven Gerrard if the rumours of him becoming manager in the summer are true and we really dont need it.

Just like to bump this one. Bears repeating.

[RedDevo]

With a pre-Covid Mane we could well have won that game. His drop off in form from one of the top players on the planet to the level of a Crystal Palace squad player is one thing that consistently stands out for me.

A combination of different (less suited) personnel in midfield (Thiago, maybe for understandable reasons, has looked like a square peg in a round hole) and evident fatigue in all the front six have robbed us of the press that opponents couldn't cope with. Chelsea played well but they would never have been able to play through us that easily last season. When the press from the front is only functioning at 70% we simultaneously become more vulnerable at the back and lose our number one source of goals.

It's a real heart-breaker that this squad has lost a year of its prime. I was expecting back to back titles. But I'm not of the view that we need a major overhaul or that some like Firmino need replacing just yet. Given a summer break and a proper pre-season, one or two fresh faces and I expect to see us back to our steamrolling best.

Some fans just want to get this season over with, you get the sense that some players feel the same way.

[bornandbRED]

I don’t have the answers, but you’re mistakenly thinking you’re own ranting is offering up explanations. It’s not.

I’m trying to prompt you to give some explanations for us playing so shite at the moment instead of just stating a few observations (most of which are bleedin obvious). You’re offering nothing whilst criticising other posters. I’m aware I’m doing the same right here, but I’m not pretending to know the answers.

I don’t see what explanation I have offered other than us being shite is not down to bad luck.

[Caston]

Jota looked bright in his movement but did we even bother to use him? I’m not even sure how many touches he had.

I mean do we expect a midfield of Milner, Ox and Gini to do anything?

[Red_Mist]

I don’t see what explanation I have offered other than us being shite is not down to bad luck

Exactly what I said. You’ve just said we’re shite but haven’t offered any explanations as to why, just some examples of how we’re being shite and said it’s not down to bad luck. So, what is it down to then? It’s that hard to get an answer I’m past caring

Anyway...

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=347122.0

[mikeb58]

I completely support the manager and players through this difficult time, however, the lack of reaction to Kovacic booting the ball against Mane’s head was unacceptable.  My twin boys who were watching the match went mental. I have seen their under 11’s team stick up for their teammates better that.  In addition, unsurprisingly Atkinson thought done nothing. That could easily have caused a head injury.  Commentators also pathetic, said it was naughty.  Nobody gave a fuck!! Pathetic.

Didn't watch the match, so only read about this and I agree the lack of reaction from our lads is emabarrasing, weak and pathetic.

It's times like that you expect your team mates to sort the fucker in question out, either there and then or twat him next available opportunity. Kovacic was probably expecting such a reaction and must have pissed himself laughing it never came.

Shame on us for letting him get away with that, unbelievable really.

[KevLFC]

The lack of form is kind of worrying. Ok injuries have hurt us but our bench last night wasn't too bad. Klopp relies so much on his tactics and firmino and there is no plan B. Our tactics in the first half was so off. The thing is every team that is going to play us is going to sit back and launch the ball over our full backs and go from there. Its easy to play against. We played well against Sheff Utd but this Sheff Utd team are going down. The other 2 games we done well where West Ham and Spurs. If its confidence or fatigue it didn't show in those 2 games.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Confidence, and good rhythm is also lacking that's evident, and it's only  natural that tends to play a part on the players [Klopp aluded to it in the presser today]. So on top of the injuries, everything else has exacerbated the problem

[Penfold78]

Good article from Michael Cox on our high line, and how dropping deeper could benefit our attack.

Cox: Liverpool should abandon their disastrous high defensive line

 It’s behind a pay wall so can’t read it but am very interested. I’d love to learn how it might be the system that’s turning great players into mush, rather than it being down to the players’ problems.

[smig]

Didn't watch the match, so only read about this and I agree the lack of reaction from our lads is emabarrasing, weak and pathetic.

It's times like that you expect your team mates to sort the fucker in question out, either there and then or twat him next available opportunity. Kovacic was probably expecting such a reaction and must have pissed himself laughing it never came.

Shame on us for letting him get away with that, unbelievable really.

Mentality monsters when they've got 50,000 fans behind them. Soft as shite when they haven't. The total absence of fight and anger at everything going is arguably worse than the way they're playing for me. None of them look like they're hurting at this. They deservedly got all the praise in the world for their efforts last season but what they're serving up every week now is piss poor and deserves criticism. We all know about the injuries and the shite officiating, but that doesn't excuse the complete absence of urgency or aggression in their play.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

No doubting Gini’s effort, but he ain’t no captain, and it what does it say to the dressing room when a splitter gets the armband?

Gini and Thiago are way too similar to play in the same midfield & if it wasn't for our defence then they wouldn't be doing imo.

[bobadicious]

Didn't watch the match, so only read about this and I agree the lack of reaction from our lads is emabarrasing, weak and pathetic.

It's times like that you expect your team mates to sort the fucker in question out, either there and then or twat him next available opportunity. Kovacic was probably expecting such a reaction and must have pissed himself laughing it never came.

Shame on us for letting him get away with that, unbelievable really.

Klopps always said hes an emotional manager and his team feed off the emotion in the ground. I feel weve suffered more than most not having our usually boisterous fans at the matches. Imagine that happened with a full anfield in uproar. I cant imagine the same shrug of shoulders would have happened.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Both.

We can get top four because some of the teams currently above us are not all that good, either. 

City is in a league of their own.

Everybody else is, like us, all over the place.

And yet we looked like we would walk the league again early doors before we lost the entire CD & City looked gash.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

I don’t really know the rules anymore but his hand is out of a natural silohette.

It's the new for one match only Jazz hands rule.

[redmark]

Gini and Thiago are way too similar to play in the same midfield & if it wasn't for our defence then they wouldn't be doing imo.

At their best, their positives are quite different. Not at their best, their weaknesses are all too similar.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

We’ve always been a soft team, don’t argue  decisions, hug up with opposing teams who break our players leg etc.. Could do with another Robbo or an extra scouser or two.

Ian Rush would've sprinted the whole length of the pitch to back up Mane and then ripped into any player that didn't.

[Cormack Snr]

I mean do we expect a midfield of Milner, Ox and Gini to do anything?

That's a really poor midfield, someone like Bournemouth or Norwich. It is not a Champions midfield, Milner has been brilliant , Ox has never been anymore than average and the same applies to Gini who has had many more poor games than good games. We have let our squad deteriorate to Shite..

[FLRed67]

Assuming injured players are not going to become suddenly uninjured, and players who are not as good as before won’t magically be great again, we can help ourselves best by modifying the way we play.

Football is about space. Finding it, creating it. But the way we play, we create less space for ourselves, and more space for our opponents.

We crowd ourselves into the opposition half, and then pass the ball sideways, back and forth, while the opposition swings left and right, blocking channels, waiting to win the ball back.

When they do, they have acres of space to play into. Then it’s off to the races, and whoever happens to be playing centre-half that day, and our goalkeeper, has to try and stop their runner from scoring.

Ironically, we will probably do better in the CL, since the top European teams will push us back into our own half, which will turn out to be a good thing.

So I hereby predict that, come May, we will finish 12th in the league, and then become champions of Europe for the seventh time.

I also predict Everton will, heroically, achieve their long-sought goal of finishing in the top four. Since an English side will also likely win the Europa League, and given the five-team limit in the CL, Everton will recover from their massive celebrations just in time to find out we have replaced them in next season’s tournament.

Oh, how we will laugh.

[MPowerYNWA]

Question now is, given we’ve been trying ever since losing the record at Anfield, do we now change things up to arrest the slide?

[Dave McCoy]

I see a bunch of Mane bashing which I guess is to be expected since he probably had our best chance last night and completely flubbed it.  Through last night he's now at .46xG/90 which is 6th in the league between Bamford and Kane.  It's also effectively the same production over the last 4 years with just differences in finishing.

For comparison Firmino is 9th, sandwiched by Vardy and Werner, and Salah is tied for 14th with Benteke and Martial.

[Golyo]

I'm sure I would also say 'not good enough' on live TV in front of millions of people. But I'm also sure that when they have a meeting, they will be calling eachother out because winners demand the best from each other.

5 losses in a row at home is a disgrace....muppet.

What does it matter if a match is home or away if there are no fans? It's a meaningless distinction emphasised by Sky to support their agenda, nothing more. You were calling the team an utter disgrace and it is fucking out of the line. Anyone can check your post history.

[idontknow]

But would you/we be saying this if we were playing scintillating football and top of the league ?

A fair question to ask, a hard one to answer. Ignoring the
hypothetical, my answer is yes, wherever we are, whatever we achieve, football without supporters is very different from what has grown this club over 130 years to where it stands now.

[Fromola]

I see a bunch of Mane bashing which I guess is to be expected since he probably had our best chance last night and completely flubbed it.  Through last night he's now at .46xG/90 which is 6th in the league between Bamford and Kane.  It's also effectively the same production over the last 4 years with just differences in finishing.

For comparison Firmino is 9th, sandwiched by Vardy and Werner, and Salah is tied for 14th with Benteke and Martial.

His general play is poor for most of the season (at least since he was out with Covid). He can't beat a man and seems to have lost his pace/composure.

[kasperoff]

Ian Rush would've sprinted the whole length of the pitch to back up Mane and then ripped into any player that didn't.

Of everything that was shit about this game, I think this worries me the most. The way Mane was left alone was fucking embarrassing. Every one of his team mates needs to watch that back and have a word with themselves. I've been in that exact situation at amateur level and it feels like absolute shite. Ready for a dust up, peer over your shoulder and your backup is looking the other way. Really upsets me just thinking about it. Van Dijk and Hendo would have probably done more, but that kind of togetherness needs to be in every player in the squad. All the talk of family and we see that. Not good enough.

[Red Dane]

I Love Liverpool FC

[stjohns]

I agree, we're playing shit.

Best thing I’ve read on here for ages.
But I do feel a tad of sympathy for SOS. Must have taken a while to type all of that.

[Willy Poolman]

Exactly what I said. You’ve just said we’re shite but haven’t offered any explanations as to why, just some examples of how we’re being shite and said it’s not down to bad luck. So, what is it down to then? It’s that hard to get an answer I’m past caring

Anyway...

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=347122.0

You did a great job of trying to help some of our contributors to get a bit of perspective Red Mist. You are far more persistent than me - I gave up several hours ago. Went away from the keyboard and lived my life a bit more. When I came back half a day later, some people are still reacting to their hurt and pain. Best let them calm down and head to another thread.
 

[Willy Poolman]

Some fantastic contributions from SOS, thanks I really enjoyed reading them.

And you were right on the mark, in my view, comparing the state of demoralisation I described to a sort of collective reactive depression. You very rarely help a depressed person by telling them to pull up their socks and stop acting like shite. You are more likely to make things worse.

[stjohns]

Some fantastic contributions from SOS, thanks I really enjoyed reading them.

And you were right on the mark, in my view, comparing the state of demoralisation I described to a sort of collective reactive depression. You very rarely help a depressed person by telling them to pull up their socks and stop acting like shite. You are more likely to make things worse.

WTF! We lost our defense for the season. That’s why, currently, we’re not the best team on the planet. Hoping for an improvement. Also hoping for an improvement in Ahmedabad.

[kasperoff]

Some fantastic contributions from SOS, thanks I really enjoyed reading them.

And you were right on the mark, in my view, comparing the state of demoralisation I described to a sort of collective reactive depression. You very rarely help a depressed person by telling them to pull up their socks and stop acting like shite. You are more likely to make things worse.

Not the same at all. Don't be trivialising things like that. If any of those players were suffering for depression they'd be nowhere near the team. It would be picked up by the staff and club. It's harder to hide these days. We aren't in the dark ages any more.

[LFC_R_BOSS]

Any other manager in my lifetime bar Rafa and Ged, I'd want them out for that sub.

Only people defending that will be the ones defending taking our best players to Denmark for a dead rubber.

Stupid fucking user name , stupid fucking c*nt eh . I can’t wait to be bouncing around again singing Bobby’s name on the kop so fuck off

[Son of Spion]

Best thing I’ve read on here for ages.
But I do feel a tad of sympathy for SOS. Must have taken a while to type all of that.

It's all good.

A quip from Chopper is a term of endearment. 

[John C]

Stupid fucking user name , stupid fucking c*nt eh . I can’t wait to be bouncing around again singing Bobby’s name on the kop so fuck off

[Son of Spion]

Not the same at all. Don't be trivialising things like that. If any of those players were suffering for depression they'd be nowhere near the team. It would be picked up by the staff and club. It's harder to hide these days. We aren't in the dark ages any more.

I don't get the impression that Willy was trivialising depression at all. I have suffered with it myself on and off since I was a kid. I also counsel people who have it.

It was me who likened the downward, demoralising spiral to a form of collective reactive depression. I wasn't suggesting the players are suffering from clinical depression, just comparing the process itself. The gist simply being that a relentless succession of problems hitting a person in a short space of time can overwhelm them and send them into a spiral. Similar can happen in relationships and even close collectives like sports teams. Just as positive momentum can make a team feel invincible, consistent negative momentum can have the opposite effect and drain them of confidence. So it's just the process itself we are talking about, rather than any individual being clinically depressed.

Willy is correct in saying that cannot help a genuinely depressed person by telling them to pull their socks up, but we are not talking about players having actual depression. In the case of individual players, a good manager would know what each player responds to. Some respond to a kick in the pants, but others often need an arm around the shoulder. Klopp is superb at knowing what's what on that score.

[redmark]

I think you're right about hitting a brick wall. What's happening with the club this season is similar to what happens to some people who became consumed with reactive/situational depression.

Basically and in general, people can usually deal with one or two things going pear-shaped in their lives at any given time. It can be difficult, but people work through it. Think about having a bad time with work. Now that can be upsetting and draining, but if other areas of your life are pretty good, there is a balance that keeps your head above water. The problem can be in any aspect of your life, but if other aspects are positive and good, you tend to cope and get through.

Now let's assume work is really bad for whatever reason. Not only that, you have a rocky relationship at home or you are unhappily alone and have no support to come home to. Imagine then that your car breaks down and you have to pay out for expensive repairs. Not only that, you are on your third puncture this year.

On top of all that, you have bills you are struggling to pay and demands are coming through your door. Things are getting on top of you and you start to feel attacked from all sides. It's not just one thing going wrong now, it feels like everything is going wrong and there is no respite. A constant anxiety kicks in, you question everything you do and the task of digging yourself out of the downward spiral feels daunting. A massive task when you feel at your lowest and weakest.

You need all your energy and effort at a time when you are drained and at your most vulnerable. You lose perspective and start to panic. You are mentally and now physically shattered and feeling overwhelmed. You can then lose perspective and make poor decisions which leave you in a state of paralysis. Nothing you do seems to make things any better. You feel lost and cut off from support. You end up in a depressive state due to becoming overwhelmed by circumstances that have come together all at once. This leaves you completely demoralised yet still needing to get through your day and fulfil your daily obligations.

This is excellent, insightful analysis. Been there once seriously in my life, and it's absolutely paralysing. Great analogy for the team right now.