Topic: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General

[Terry de Niro]

Haven't seen this posted anywhere else on here, so apologies if already posted.

Football referee banned after celebrating title with team he officiated

A Dutch football referee has been reportedly banned from officiating for life after he was filmed celebrating with a team he refereed on the final day of the season.

Local reports say Jan Smit, 61, from Opmeer in the Netherlands, officiated a game between St George and SV De Valken in the fourth division on the final day of their season.

NH Nieuws reports Smit made a number of controversial decisions, including sending off three SV De Valken players and a member of their coaching staff.

He also added 15 minutes on at the end of the game as St George was losing and needed a point to secure the title.

SV De Valken filed a complaint against Smit.

The club wrote: "The Valken board does not consider it useful to discuss Sunday's match in detail and the role of the referee during and after the match in public.

"We just have to judge whether it is normal for a referee to celebrate St. George's deserved championship in an exuberant manner after the match."

The Dutch FA, the KNVB, responded by banning Smit from refereeing for them ever again.

KNVB spokesperson Daan Schippers said: "We have received several complaints after Sunday's match.

"We called Mr Smit and told him that he is no longer allowed to referee matches.

"We expect a neutral attitude from a referee and that both teams are treated with respect."

Smit has spoken out against it.

He told NH Nieuws: "I can understand SV De Valken is disappointed with the course of the match. However, in my opinion, the four red cards given were all 100 per cent justified.

"Before the match I have already been asked by players from St George if I wanted to sing a song afterwards. I have done that several times in the past, including at Spartans, VVS, Grasshoppers and also in Amsterdam at ASV Arsenal.

"I wasn't partying with the players at all. I just sang a song and held up the bowl once. That's the only thing. I find it too sad for words that the KNVB is removing me for that reason. It's laughable.

"KNVB has not done any research and only watched one video. I assume the whistling is now over but I will no longer get on my knees like I did two years ago."

https://www.indy100.com/sport/dutch-football-referee-banned-celebrating

[KevLFC]

Funny how Wolves always seem to be affected by VAR. Did one decision go their way this season at all? What did they do to piss them off like? 😉.

[Tonyh8su]

Funny how Wolves always seem to be affected by VAR. Did one decision go their way this season at all? What did they do to piss them off like? 😉.

what am I missing here?

[1892tillforever]

Haven't seen this posted anywhere else on here, so apologies if already posted.

https://www.indy100.com/sport/dutch-football-referee-banned-celebrating

If that happened in the Premier League we'd have Dermot Gallagher on Refwatch explaining why it was the right decision for the ref to party with the winners.

[rob1966]

If that happened in the Premier League we'd have Dermot Gallagher on Refwatch explaining why it was the right decision for the ref to party with the winners.

And bring a load of Thai prozzies as guests too

[capt k]

With VAR binned, the match officials will come under more scrutiny to get their calls correctly. If they don't the media aren't going away. They'll be analyzing everything and pointing out the errors.


You must have forgotten when VAR wasn't involved.

The officials made errors. Sure they did. The media pointed these out and clamored for VAR to "fix" the problem. Errors would be eliminated and stopped.

This is what we were sold to bring VAR in.

How's it gone since?

More errors than before. By more errors, I mean calls we were told would be corrected aren't. It is worse. Not better.

And what do we get as an answer, improve the officials and technology.

Football wasn't broke before VAR, It is broke now.


Go back to footy without VAR and what will we get? Matches where, yes, calls will be gotten wrong or missed. And the media will scream about them putting pressure on the officials to get the calls correct. Where as now, with VAR, we get well it was a 50/50 or bias from certain pundits which doesn't improve any aspect of VAR.

Bin the VAR shit show.

im not doubting that var{with its current staff} is shit, what i do question is your line about the media.
Rat boy and Spit{ and most other pundits} have now been told to tow the corporate line, or their snout is taken out of the trough.  i personaly cant see that being the case in future{media calling out refs}, Var or no var

[JRed]

And bring a load of Thai prozzies as guests too

A mutual cumming together?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

A mutual cumming together?

Good prophylactic, boys.

[GreatEx]

All contact outside the box

[Clint Eastwood]

Arsene Wenger still trying to force his idiotic new offside rule on football. Feels like everybody things it’s ridiculous apart from him. It solves nothing.

[Fromola]

Arsene Wenger still trying to force his idiotic new offside rule on football. Feels like everybody things it’s ridiculous apart from him. It solves nothing.

The problem with offsides and VAR is it's changed the perspective of what an offside is and takes too much away from the game. The armpit/shoulder offsides or the one Coventry scored in the cup semi final that was ruled out by VAR. It kills the emotion of the game as so many goals you can't celebrate for the possibility of an offside in the build up, as even if it's dead level it's a potential offside and a 5 minute review.

It might work better if the rule doesn't change for match officials but Wenger's proposal would be the bar for a VAR/automated overturn (i.e. an obvious error and then everyone knows the rule). Not ideal but a better compromise. We have lost perspective of what the offside rule was actually brought in for.

Offside rule also needs simplifying for technology. No more nonsense like the Endo one in the cup final or Salah at Burnley. Offside obstruction should only apply to the goalkeeper.

[thejbs]

Arsene Wenger still trying to force his idiotic new offside rule on football. Feels like everybody things it’s ridiculous apart from him. It solves nothing.

Yup. So instead of being offside by your wee toe, you’ll be onside by it. It doesn’t address the problem.

A sensible thing would be to work in the physical limitations of var so there’s a bigger threshold that will give benefit to the attacker. Current thresholds didn’t go far enough.

Like, if ai are doing it, I’m sure an algorithm that takes into account the attackers speed (and therefore the margin for error based on tv frame rate and resolution) can be quickly figured out by software.

[In the Name of Klopp]

Sorry if this has been posted before. Guess who's most affected by the wrong VAR decisions. Btw the problem is the people operating the system not the system itself. We need independent personal with no connection to PGMOL. At the moment, it's one of the PGMOL stooges leading the VAR room.


https://www.espn.co.uk/football/insider/story/_/id/40150227/every-premier-league-var-error-ranking-winners-losers-referee-stats-2023-24

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Yup. So instead of being offside by your wee toe, you’ll be onside by it. It doesn’t address the problem.

A sensible thing would be to work in the physical limitations of var so there’s a bigger threshold that will give benefit to the attacker. Current thresholds didn’t go far enough.

Like, if ai are doing it, I’m sure an algorithm that takes into account the attackers speed (and therefore the margin for error based on tv frame rate and resolution) can be quickly figured out by software.

Should go back to a clear gap between the two, would also be easier with var, like you said.

[4pool]

I'm sure posters are doing their best to come up with alternate ideas. But it won't make a jot of difference.

Personally, I have no problem with the current rules on offside.

VAR needs to improve Red card, handballs, diving, penalty calls. Utopia if they do but they won't as biases will come into play.

But no matter what they decide, we'll still get screwed more than others. That is a given. 

[rob1966]

I'm sure posters are doing their best to come up with alternate ideas. But it won't make a jot of difference.

Personally, I have no problem with the current rules on offside.

VAR needs to improve Red card, handballs, diving, penalty calls. Utopia if they do but they won't as biases will come into play.

But no matter what they decide, we'll still get screwed more than others. That is a given. 

The current implementation isn't in the spirit of the law though. The law is all about stopping goal hanging, they knew that linesmen wouldn't be inch perfectly accurate, its impossible, but they never expected them to go to this level. They knew and accepted a leg being a bit further forward would happen and not be flagged and they were happy with that.

I hate the fact that they draw lines, a toe offside is not what the rule makers actually intended. A foot being a little bit nearer the goal is not an unfair advantage.

And as for active/inactive, that bollocks needs dropping - because its gaining an unfair advantage and encourages goal hanging

[Knight]

The current implementation isn't in the spirit of the law though. The law is all about stopping goal hanging, they knew that linesmen wouldn't be inch perfectly accurate, its impossible, but they never expected them to go to this level. They knew and accepted a leg being a bit further forward would happen and not be flagged and they were happy with that.

I hate the fact that they draw lines, a toe offside is not what the rule makers actually intended. A foot being a little bit nearer the goal is not an unfair advantage.

And as for active/inactive, that bollocks needs dropping - because its gaining an unfair advantage and encourages goal hanging

It's crazy not to have a problem with the current offside. Firstly, there's the issue you highlight very helpfully. And secondly, even if you thought the new law of arbitrary pedantry over armpits or slightly baggy shirts was a good rule the technology doesn't even allow the level of precision that they're going for. The cameras don't have enough frames to adjudicate between the millimetres and fractions of a second it would need to be accurate. We're being incredibly pedantic based on technology that only enables approximate estimates, which is a farce. 

[steampie]

Sorry if this has been posted before. Guess who's most affected by the wrong VAR decisions. Btw the problem is the people operating the system not the system itself. We need independent personal with no connection to PGMOL. At the moment, it's one of the PGMOL stooges leading the VAR room.


https://www.espn.co.uk/football/insider/story/_/id/40150227/every-premier-league-var-error-ranking-winners-losers-referee-stats-2023-24

Interesting read. But the fact that Doku's kung fu kick on Mac Allister is not classified as a clear and obvious error is fucking bonkers.

[rob1966]

It's crazy not to have a problem with the current offside. Firstly, there's the issue you highlight very helpfully. And secondly, even if you thought the new law of arbitrary pedantry over armpits or slightly baggy shirts was a good rule the technology doesn't even allow the level of precision that they're going for. The cameras don't have enough frames to adjudicate between the millimetres and fractions of a second it would need to be accurate. We're being incredibly pedantic based on technology that only enables approximate estimates, which is a farce. 

Exactly - as you say, how can you go to such tight margins when it's outside the capabilities of the technonlogy being used? I watch MOTOGP and they use 4k cameras running at 1000fps or more, you footy use 50fps. The PL hasn't even adopted th Adidas ball with the sensor in it, for AI VAR ffs

[4pool]

The current implementation isn't in the spirit of the law though. The law is all about stopping goal hanging, they knew that linesmen wouldn't be inch perfectly accurate, its impossible, but they never expected them to go to this level. They knew and accepted a leg being a bit further forward would happen and not be flagged and they were happy with that.

I hate the fact that they draw lines, a toe offside is not what the rule makers actually intended. A foot being a little bit nearer the goal is not an unfair advantage.

And as for active/inactive, that bollocks needs dropping - because its gaining an unfair advantage and encourages goal hanging

Rob, that ship has sailed.

We both know VAR is here to stay. I was 100% against it before implementation and 100% against it now. But there is sweet FA I can do about it.

With that in mind, the way they do offside for VAR is fine by me. Any adjustments to it with higher speed cameras or AI line drawing isn't going to significantly change things, imho. It will give the tech nerds something to cheer about I suppose. But there won't be 5 calls per season really affected. As there won't be proof with the existing tech the call would be different with the new tech. Howard Webb will be still telling us everything is fine.

[Fromola]

Rob, that ship has sailed.

We both know VAR is here to stay. I was 100% against it before implementation and 100% against it now. But there is sweet FA I can do about it.

With that in mind, the way they do offside for VAR is fine by me. Any adjustments to it with higher speed cameras or AI line drawing isn't going to significantly change things, imho. It will give the tech nerds something to cheer about I suppose. But there won't be 5 calls per season really affected. As there won't be proof with the existing tech the call would be different with the new tech. Howard Webb will be still telling us everything is fine.

Several minutes checking goals for the most fractional of offside decisions has made matches a farce for years.

[thejbs]

Sorry if this has been posted before. Guess who's most affected by the wrong VAR decisions. Btw the problem is the people operating the system not the system itself. We need independent personal with no connection to PGMOL. At the moment, it's one of the PGMOL stooges leading the VAR room.


https://www.espn.co.uk/football/insider/story/_/id/40150227/every-premier-league-var-error-ranking-winners-losers-referee-stats-2023-24

How do they calculate that with errors fixed, we’re on the same points?

[lfc79]

Interesting read. But the fact that Doku's kung fu kick on Mac Allister is not classified as a clear and obvious error is fucking bonkers.
[/quote
Exactly or the non red card in the Brighton game, they were terrible decisions which cost us 4 points, not even mentioned

[Knight]

Rob, that ship has sailed.

We both know VAR is here to stay. I was 100% against it before implementation and 100% against it now. But there is sweet FA I can do about it.

With that in mind, the way they do offside for VAR is fine by me. Any adjustments to it with higher speed cameras or AI line drawing isn't going to significantly change things, imho. It will give the tech nerds something to cheer about I suppose. But there won't be 5 calls per season really affected. As there won't be proof with the existing tech the call would be different with the new tech. Howard Webb will be still telling us everything is fine.

I’m no tech nerd but it doesn’t take one to realise that they’re making a heck of a lot of offside calls based on radically insufficient tech if they’re using 50FPS cameras. How long does a players foot remain in contact with the ball  for? How far apart can 2 players move in a second if they’re already moving and travelling in different directions? A huge % of offside calls made by VAR are glorified guess work.

[thejbs]

The margin for error, based on current tech, can be as much as 35cm in some fast-paced calls. But currently, VAR allows for 13cm. A 25cm margin built in would be fairer, make for less dispiriting decisions and still allow defences to play an offside trap.

[BOBSCOUSE]

The current implementation isn't in the spirit of the law though. The law is all about stopping goal hanging, they knew that linesmen wouldn't be inch perfectly accurate, its impossible, but they never expected them to go to this level. They knew and accepted a leg being a bit further forward would happen and not be flagged and they were happy with that.

I hate the fact that they draw lines, a toe offside is not what the rule makers actually intended. A foot being a little bit nearer the goal is not an unfair advantage.

And as for active/inactive, that bollocks needs dropping - because its gaining an unfair advantage and encourages goal hanging

Totally agree with this.  This one is topical as it's FA Cup Final day today, go back to the Coventry v United game and the late goal cancelled for offside, not only was he actually onside but he's facing back up the pitch so where is he gaining an unfair advantage? 

It would actually be easier to simplify the rules now, with VAR in place, take them more back to terms that are black and white rather than the grey elephant soup they have been turned into now.  Current rules are enabling match-fixing due to bias and/or corruption.  Make the rules fucking Clear & Obvious and the game will be in a better place.

[Dr. Beaker]

I can't even envisage any rule change that could not be totally fucked up and abused by a referee.

[rob1966]

I’m no tech nerd but it doesn’t take one to realise that they’re making a heck of a lot of offside calls based on radically insufficient tech if they’re using 50FPS cameras. How long does a players foot remain in contact with the ball  for? How far apart can 2 players move in a second if they’re already moving and travelling in different directions? A huge % of offside calls made by VAR are glorified guess work.

This quite interesting, shows Neville and Carra doing some lineo training - shows how hard it is to catch the crossover offside. What gets me though is at the end, where the official is saying "if they look within a metre offside, they're likely to be on", so as we all know, a lot of the time it's guesswork, based on experience.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/_pGMRN5KN8M&amp;t=403s" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/_pGMRN5KN8M&amp;t=403s</a>

If this is acceptable, then until semi auto AI VAR comes in, and unlike the PGMOL's implementation, is using a sensor in the ball like the Adidas one to go with the 12 cameras tracking 29 points on the body (and these cameras need to be at least 500fps), we're not even close to being accurate enough to draw lines and they shouldn't be doing it. It never should have been this way anyway, as in RL, it should have been a look at the screen and a visual check, if they can't see an obvious offside, then its on. Thats the spirit of the law and it what us as supporters want.

[Fromola]

Totally agree with this.  This one is topical as it's FA Cup Final day today, go back to the Coventry v United game and the late goal cancelled for offside, not only was he actually onside but he's facing back up the pitch so where is he gaining an unfair advantage? 

It would actually be easier to simplify the rules now, with VAR in place, take them more back to terms that are black and white rather than the grey elephant soup they have been turned into now.  Current rules are enabling match-fixing due to bias and/or corruption.  Make the rules fucking Clear & Obvious and the game will be in a better place.

Daylight should be the bar for a VAR overturn (I.e. clear and obvious). Any part of the player is clearly onside then it's not overturned.

People say offsides are factual and not subjective. It's not though if it takes 5 minutes to make a decision.

[BoRed]

How do they calculate that with errors fixed, we’re on the same points?

Because Dale Johnson is full of shit.

And not content with claiming we haven't lost any points due to VAR errors, he then spends the rest of the article claiming that we have in fact somehow benefited from VAR as a whole (yes, because onfield refs made even more errors against us, and VAR did in fact correct some, though nowhere near enough), and have also benefited from refereeing mistakes that weren't clear and obvious (counting stuff like penalties on Szoboszlai and Jota or Konate not getting a second yellow, but still failing to mention Doku on MacAllister or Jota's two bookings at Spurs). The whole thing is so selective, you could take any team and arbitrarily put them anywhere between -10 and +10 and still make it sound plausible.

In short, though, he's full of shit.

[rob1966]

Daylight should be the bar for a VAR overturn (I.e. clear and obvious). Any part of the player is clearly onside then it's not overturned.

People say offsides are factual and not subjective. It's not though if it takes 5 minutes to make a decision.

No, offside is not subjective, its factual, its written in the law:-

A player is in an offside position if:
any part of the head, body or feet is in the opponents’ half (excluding the halfway line) and
any part of the head, body or feet is nearer to the opponents’ goal line than both the ball and the second-last opponent

The problem is, and I expected better from him, that Colina wanted the law applying with no leeway, so that is why they go down to the mm. It takes so long because they have to then check to the mm, they're not allowed to be unsure, they have to be spot on (impossible but there you go) this is where the issue is arising.

[Hazell]

Interesting read. But the fact that Doku's kung fu kick on Mac Allister is not classified as a clear and obvious error is fucking bonkers.

Yeah, that's only what the independent panel of judges was wrong. How they came to that conclusion is just mad.

Funny that Nunez's 'foul' at Burnley is in there, I completely forgot about that. Things like Elliott's goal being disallowed because Salah was pushed offside in the same game won't be there. It might be technically correct but that one annoyed me more given it was the Burnley player that pushed him offside.

There's a litany of decisions that won't be on there though.

[Hazell]

Kavanagh was the VAR official that didn't give the Rodri handball, sent Robertson off at Spurs (but not Kane for a worse foul) and was sent to the screen in the derby to overturn Calvert Lewins dive and still gave the pen without even looking at it.

What a list. Although I guess you could pretty much name a random ref these days and it'd be just as bad.

[Samie]

https://x.com/JacobsBen/status/1794804727265513548

Liverpool plan to vote against the removal of VAR at the Premier League AGM in June.

[Fromola]

https://x.com/JacobsBen/status/1794804727265513548

Turkeys and Christmas.

[Yorkykopite]

Maybe we are part of the conspiracy?

[slaphead]

Klopp put it perfectly as usual when he said - "I do not think VAR is the problem but the way we use it is the problem. So, you cannot change the people obviously, it's clear. You need them. So yeah, I would vote for scrapping VAR."