Topic: Lionel Messi

[Red-Soldier]

This is often used as a measure for comparison, but you could equally say that the standard of opposition and number of elite players was far lower in the 50's and 60's, compared to the last 2 decades in which Messi has played. Messi is simply a great player due to his ability - not because the balls are lighter or the pitches are better.

I guess we'll never know, as there are simply too many variables. It's the same argument with most sports - like Formula One cars (or tracks), running shoes, golf clubs/courses, tennis rackets, and the many other sporting aspects that have changed massively over the last 50 years due to new technology, materials, nutrition, sports science, and psychology.

Personally I grew up with Maradona and then Messi, and for me Messi is the better player - simply due to his extraordinary consistency and output across 17 seasons, and his ability to play about 4 or 5 positions at elite level. As Groove so neatly put it - 'A playmaking number 10 on a par with Maradona, whilst also scoring at a Cristiano Ronaldo rate, and he did it for over a whole decade'.

As I said in an earlier post, it might better to simply say Pele was the best player from the late 50's to early 70's, Maradona for the 80's/90's, and Messi from 2007 to whenever he hangs up his boots (or when Mbappe takes over to restart the whole debate...).

You could also say Pele would've been even better, given the improved nutrition and fitness methods now, as well as the better pitches and increased protection from refs. I didn' say he wasn't. 

The point I was making, as you correctly highlighted again, is that it is very hard to compare generations, as many things are different.  So, you are not really making a direct comparison and the differences have to be taken into account.

Also, there's a huge familiarity bias, when making comparisons too.  We've lived the Messi era, but we were not around when Pele was playing.  This means we are more likely to favour Messi, than not.  Everyone wants to believe that we've witnessed/lived through the greatest ever etc etc.

Messi is the best of his generation, but I think Pele still stands as the greatest ever.  His records are just astounding.

[damomad]

Also, there's a huge familiarity bias, when making comparisons too.  We've lived the Messi era, but we were not around when Pele was playing.  This means we are more likely to favour Messi, than not.  Everyone wants to believe that we've witnessed/lived through the greatest ever etc etc.

Messi is the best of his generation, but I think Pele still stands as the greatest ever.  His records are just astounding.

Absolutely. It's pointless comparing and expecting a definitive answer. Maradona is the greatest in my book but it's undoubtedly personal preference.

Could people even agree upon which season had the best Messi? Or which game? I guarantee you'd get all different types of answers. It all comes down to personal preference and people arguing like there's a solid answer are ultimately wasting their time, although it can be fun.

[Red-Soldier]

Absolutely. It's pointless comparing and expecting a definitive answer. Maradona is the greatest in my book but it's undoubtedly personal preference.

Could people even agree upon which season had the best Messi? Or which game? I guarantee you'd get all different types of answers. It all comes down to personal preference and people arguing like there's a solid answer are ultimately wasting their time, although it can be fun.

Using my personal bias, Maradona was the greatest ever, as Mexico 86 was the first WC I can remember and he was the best at the time.  No doubt he was the greatest of his generation and I also liked the fact he was flawed too (aren't we all).

[Chris~]

I mean, I don't think there's anything wrong with saying Messi is the best because we are familiar with his career having had 99% available to watch plus the same for all.his contemporaries vs Pele where you're probably looking at 1-5% of it being available.

[carling]

How many times have you watched Pele vs How many times have you watched Messi?

People generally show a bias towards familiarity. 

All of Pele's peers (the best players to have ever played the game) say he was the greatest, plus his record is beyond comparison.  He could do absolutely anything with a football, a football that was hard as nails and weighed an absolute ton, compared to the modern balls.

I went through a spell of absorbing as much Pele and Maradona footage I could but of course sadly there isn't enough of Pele.  What struck me with Pele is that he looked like a player from the the 1980's who had been dropped into the 1950's.  It's hard to tell how much is from the standard of the opposition or what is simply his brilliance, but he just looked so much better than his peers and it's obvious why he's considered one of the greats (besides the 3 world cups that is!).   But I can't find anything that suggests he did anything like prime Messi was capable of, it was all too much slower with too much space to work in whereas Messi looked otherworldly with how fast his mind and feet seemed to work.  And again that weight of pass..

I guess there's a problem with the terminology.  'Greatest ever' is very subjective and can have a lot of emotion attached to it.  'The best ever' is less open to interpretation and that's where I think Messi stands alone and the conversation can only possibly be about who is second best.

[beardsleyismessimk1]

Lol.

Except for all the workers who died. Yup no violence or distastefulness.

Anyway glad you had a good experience and enjoyed it. As for wanking myself silly and missing Messi lifting the cup, I can live with that.

They found that 2.78 million work-related deaths occur every year worldwide. Over 380,000 are fatal accidents, with 2.4 million the result of occupational diseases, including cancer.

Getting old now

[beardsleyismessimk1]

Get fucked all the way off. I did not boycott that shitshow because of "performative/egotistical reasons". I boycotted it because I refuse to support a regime that considers certain people to be expendable and inferior. Thousands were enslaved in horrific conditions and continue to have their rights abused in order to wank off billionaire despots who wanted to sportswash their regime. Women are treated as non entities and their lives are only worthy if they can birth and raise children. LGBTQ are "vermin" and can be killed purely for existing. No one is praising the US so piss off with that false equivalency bull shit. You're an idiot if you believe there was no violence or a troll.

Lol you male out like none of these things exist in England. 

[mainone]

i remember he scored a great free kick against us

[WhereAngelsPlay]

They found that 2.78 million work-related deaths occur every year worldwide. Over 380,000 are fatal accidents, with 2.4 million the result of occupational diseases, including cancer.

Getting old now

What exactly is getting old now ?

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Lol you male out like none of these things exist in England.

Oh I see now,you're a fucking apologist 

[mainone]

diving horrible c*nt who messi ronaldo???

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Get fucked all the way off. I did not boycott that shitshow because of "performative/egotistical reasons". I boycotted it because I refuse to support a regime that considers certain people to be expendable and inferior. Thousands were enslaved in horrific conditions and continue to have their rights abused in order to wank off billionaire despots who wanted to sportswash their regime. Women are treated as non entities and their lives are only worthy if they can birth and raise children. LGBTQ are "vermin" and can be killed purely for existing. No one is praising the US so piss off with that false equivalency bull shit. You're an idiot if you believe there was no violence or a troll.

The Argies and Mexicans were fighting in the stands.

[afc tukrish]

Think part of it is that Ronaldo gets non-stop (and justifiable) pelters for the way he carries on, but Messi seems to avoid it, despite being just as much of a bellend.

Not certain I agree with just as much as, but certainly is often a whiny little bisht...

[beardsleyismessimk1]

Oh I see now,you're a fucking apologist 

For you !

[Ma Vie en Rouge]

They found that 2.78 million work-related deaths occur every year worldwide. Over 380,000 are fatal accidents, with 2.4 million the result of occupational diseases, including cancer.

Getting old now

"Death is a part of life"?

[stockdam]

I went through a spell of absorbing as much Pele and Maradona footage I could but of course sadly there isn't enough of Pele.  What struck me with Pele is that he looked like a player from the the 1980's who had been dropped into the 1950's.  It's hard to tell how much is from the standard of the opposition or what is simply his brilliance, but he just looked so much better than his peers and it's obvious why he's considered one of the greats (besides the 3 world cups that is!).   But I can't find anything that suggests he did anything like prime Messi was capable of, it was all too much slower with too much space to work in whereas Messi looked otherworldly with how fast his mind and feet seemed to work.  And again that weight of pass..

I guess there's a problem with the terminology.  'Greatest ever' is very subjective and can have a lot of emotion attached to it.  'The best ever' is less open to interpretation and that's where I think Messi stands alone and the conversation can only possibly be about who is second best.

I don't think you can compare great players in different eras. Maradona was great but on the one hand the defenders were not as good as they are now but on the other hand, they got away with "tackles" that would rock you to your core. Go back a bit further and George Best was probably the best in the world. He played on muddy pitches and the tackles would make Souness or Roy Keane look like wimps.

Put Messi back in Maradona's day or Best's day and maybe he wouldn't have stood out as much. Who knows and it all comes down to opinion.
Training has changed, the pitches have changed and the laws have changed. So you can't objectively compare. I've seen all three and all I can say is they all were a delight to watch.

[beardsleyismessimk1]

"Death is a part of life"?

Or life is a part of death...... you seem to be assuming one outweighs the other.  Do you know something the rest of us don't? 

[oojason]

Lol you male out like none of these things exist in England. 

Ah whataboutery - the device of the people who often lose in discussions when they cannot make a a coherent defence against the valid points (made by Persephone) - and use deflection in an attempt to steer the focus elsewhere.


Everywhere has problems - though the UK doesn't have one with modern slavery... or imprisoning, abusing and executing LGBTQ+ people. Or getting others to issues threats on your behalf because you are scared of rainbows or armbands - along with the points made Persephone in her post... which led you to your use of whataboutery.

[Ma Vie en Rouge]

No, it's what one of the Qatari organising committee said when questioned about the death of (yet another) migrant worker during the World Cup.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

For you !

Don't ever feel the need to apologise for me.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

No, it's what one of the Qatari organising committee said when questioned about the death of (yet another) migrant worker during the World Cup.

Yeah he went all little miss pissy knickers that the reporter had the nerve to ask when there was a game that needed talking about.

[4pool]

For Santos in the 60s .....there's just no relevance and to be honest Pele suffers by comparison because Messi's done it in the CL week in, week out against the best in the world and Pele doesn't have an equivalent

Said this before..Brazil won 3 World Cups in that time.

Yes, he played for Santos. But this was a time when Brazilians weren't in Europe. He was playing against the best, as evident by the 3 WC, at home in his domestic League. Being kicked from pillar to post, as was routine then.

Downplaying the Santos years is farcical, imho.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Said this before..Brazil won 3 World Cups in that time.

Yes, he played for Santos. But this was a time when Brazilians weren't in Europe. He was playing against the best, as evident by the 3 WC, at home in his domestic League. Being kicked from pillar to post, as was routine then.

Downplaying the Santos years is farcical, imho.

Didn't they have to play in Brazil to be eligible for the national team or am I making that up ?

[4pool]

Didn't they have to play in Brazil to be eligible for the national team or am I making that up ?

Maybe you mean that the government prevented Pele from going abroad.



Between 1958 and 1962, several big European clubs wanted him. According to Pele, he had offers from Manchester United, AC Milan, and Real Madrid. At one point, he was on the verge of joining Real Madrid. However, he would reject the offer claiming he was very content playing in Brazil. In 1975, he would finish out his career in the United States and retire in 1977.

What if Pele Took His Talents to Europe?

There was a time where it was very rare for South American players to play in Europe. Quite frankly, it was unheard of. In Pele’s case, he could have set an example by showing that players from South America are capable of playing European football.

Furthermore, he surely could have impressed critics enough to become the first non-European player to win the Ballon d’Or. In addition, he would undoubtedly have won numerous domestic titles in European competition. Overall, he surely would have achieved great success in Europe.

Pele playing for a big European club would have made money for both Pele and the club. In addition, Pele would have made an impact on his teammates. Unfortunately, it didn’t happen.

Honestly, what truly makes the situation interesting is that in 1961, the Brazilian government made Pele a national treasure. In fact, there was a law to prevent the striker from leaving the country. It seems that political chaos prevented Pele from playing outside of Brazil. Maybe he did have aspirations to play in Europe but due to the political situation in his country, he was forbidden from doing so.

[4pool]

Btw , the first Brazilian to play in England was in 1987 for Newcastle.

Pele would have been 47 in 1987.

[Coolie High]

Said this before..Brazil won 3 World Cups in that time.

Yes, he played for Santos. But this was a time when Brazilians weren't in Europe. He was playing against the best, as evident by the 3 WC, at home in his domestic League. Being kicked from pillar to post, as was routine then.

Downplaying the Santos years is farcical, imho.

Yep it’s hilarious people think a player who was schooling the best European defenders at 17 would need to come to Europe to prove himself, kinda like the people who knock Messi for not coming England, or who said Haaland wouldn’t score as many goals in England as he did for Germany.

Like playing for a Madrid side containing the best players would make him any better, nonsense football even 30 years ago wasn’t like how it was now, the best talents were more spread out and go back further that applies to the continents. The best player in the 50’s was a guy from Argentina, it’s South American who bought the level of European football up a notch especially in regards to attacking players, in Peles day most of these players were still playing in South America.

Pele didn’t need to prove anything more than he did, at 17 he was finding it easy against the best defenders Europe had to offer, just like he was 12 years late in 1970, the best solution European defenders had against him was to kick him as hard as they could, like they did in 1962 and 1966, that’s all.

[beardsleyismessimk1]

Ah whataboutery - the device of the people who often lose in discussions when they cannot make a a coherent defence against the valid points (made by Persephone) - and use deflection in an attempt to steer the focus elsewhere.


Everywhere has problems - though the UK doesn't have one with modern slavery... or imprisoning, abusing and executing LGBTQ+ people. Or getting others to issues threats on your behalf because you are scared of rainbows or armbands - along with the points made Persephone in her post... which led you to your use of whataboutery.

As opposed to your whataboutery?

[Red-Soldier]

Said this before..Brazil won 3 World Cups in that time.

Yes, he played for Santos. But this was a time when Brazilians weren't in Europe. He was playing against the best, as evident by the 3 WC, at home in his domestic League. Being kicked from pillar to post, as was routine then.

Downplaying the Santos years is farcical, imho.

Yep.  It highlights an acute lack of knowledge and understanding.

Football is like anything else really.  If you want to learn about it, read up (and watch videos) on it's history, origins, development etc.

[harleydanger]

Never seen Messi hold a team full of Nazi's to a 4-4 draw in war torn Paris.

So it's Pele for me

[The North Bank]

Pele is the first true global football superstar. How popular was football around the world in 1954. He emerged and took football and world cups to another level. For all the great players that were around at the time. Pele was the one icon that made football the worlds number 1 sport. His influence can’t be underestimated. A lot of players have gone on to emulate a lot of things he did, but he was the first. And if you watch videos of him, his balance, strength, touch on the ball, all round ability. I’d say he’s the most supreme footballer.
Comparing eras is impossible and will never give an accurate measure of players, but Pele and Messi have to be the greatest 2 players of all time. Though Pele still shades it.
In the end we should be grateful that these players existed, Even the crying cheating diving arrogant Ronaldo , he has his place among the best ever. At his peak he too was incredible.

[Andy82lfc]

https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2022/dec/18/workers-in-thailand-who-made-ff-jeans-for-tesco-trapped-in-effective-forced-labour

No. The English in typical whataboutery fashion just make it look like they are squeaky clean.

You sound like a racist. You come across racist. Ergo not knowing you at all. I'd say you are or have very racist views. Please stop

What the actual fuck is this??

[Ray K]

Never seen Messi hold a team full of Nazi's to a 4-4 draw in war torn Paris.

So it's Pele for me

Wouldn't even play extra time or penalties because his goalkeeper was an American who barely played in goal before. Coward.

[BER]

https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2022/dec/18/workers-in-thailand-who-made-ff-jeans-for-tesco-trapped-in-effective-forced-labour

No. The English in typical whataboutery fashion just make it look like they are squeaky clean.

You sound like a racist. You come across racist. Ergo not knowing you at all. I'd say you are or have very racist views. Please stop

Okay Nigel.

[Ma Vie en Rouge]

https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2022/dec/18/workers-in-thailand-who-made-ff-jeans-for-tesco-trapped-in-effective-forced-labour

No. The English in typical whataboutery fashion just make it look like they are squeaky clean.

You sound like a racist. You come across racist. Ergo not knowing you at all. I'd say you are or have very racist views. Please stop

What the hell are you even on about? No one on here is defending English/British colonialism, British foreign policy, sweatshop Capitalism, Tesco, or any fucking thing else. You're just busy trying to muddy the waters and to pretend you have some deeper, wider perspective whilst we're all just subconscious racists because we don't think that governments should use captive labour to build infrastructure costing thousands of lives, or torture and kill gay people, or imprison and kill political opponents. The rest is just bullshit, frankly.

[JackWard33]

Downplaying the Santos years is farcical, imho.

It clearly isn't - the World Cup is a tiny fraction of a players career.. even less games in Pele's day.
Clearly the level of professionalism and athleticism in the Brazilian league in the 60s was a world below what top players compete against today

[damomad]

Between 1960-1984, South American sides won 15 of the 23 Intercontinental Cup's (where the European Cup winner player the Copa Libertadores winner). Santos had 2 of those. The game has changed significantly now but for anyone to say Pele wasn't playing in a top league at the time is complete nonsense.

[Barneylfc∗]

https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2022/dec/18/workers-in-thailand-who-made-ff-jeans-for-tesco-trapped-in-effective-forced-labour

No. The English in typical whataboutery fashion just make it look like they are squeaky clean.

You sound like a racist. You come across racist. Ergo not knowing you at all. I'd say you are or have very racist views. Please stop

Wow 

[oojason]

As opposed to your whataboutery?

&

https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2022/dec/18/workers-in-thailand-who-made-ff-jeans-for-tesco-trapped-in-effective-forced-labour

No. The English in typical whataboutery fashion just make it look like they are squeaky clean.

You sound like a racist. You come across racist. Ergo not knowing you at all. I'd say you are or have very racist views. Please stop

Thank you for proving the use of whataboutery when people cannot make a coherent defence against valid points - and use deflection in an attempt to steer the focus elsewhere.

On top of that, then going on to attack the person posting - with 3 completely made-up claims of me being racist.

Followed by your poor attempt to 'playing the victim' on top of that with a "Please Stop" plea.

Fourthly, I'm not English. Ignorant much... with your 'typical English' remark? Not that it matters much - other than to highlight your own xenophobia.


I'm not a grass - but your pathetic and desperate accusations of racism don't fly with me. Twisting and resorting that low - despite you knowing them not to be true - damages genuine and important recourse when racism does occur. Reported.

[AndyMuller]

Well in oojason. Keep fighting the good fight mate and ignore the idiotic troll.

[elsewhere]

I've seen Maradona, Cruyff, original Ronaldo, Zidane etc and to me Messi to me is best ever, regardless if Mbappe wins 3 CL or 3 more World Cup's. Only contest is Maradona and Messi edges it with his club level performances.