Topic: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended

[tomred]

As a club we messed up on the Suarez/Evra affair in my opinion. We should have portrayed it as a cultural misunderstanding and drawn a line under it early on. I don't blame either Kenny (who did the right thing in terms of supporting his player) or the owners (who did the right thing in terms of staying out of something being handled by the manager) for that. I suppose if I were to apportion blame it would be with the CEO equivalent for not advising Kenny on the easy way out of a horrible situation.

[L666KOP]

There's so much criticism of almost everything connected with our club around here. From FSG's focus on trimming wages, to managerial records of Kenny, Hodgson and Rafa, and most importantly for me to our club and its 'assets' being treated like a f 'merchandise'. There's so much negative energy that it is hard to regain any sense of positivity and hope short term or long term. I personally struggle most with the question of What Do We Really Want? What kind of owners?
If its not FSG, if its not sugar daddies, if its not Glazers, if its not what Arsenal have, if fan ownership is unrealistic, then what is?

To go back 6 years?
To get Moores and Morgan to do a deal?

We lost our club when we got into bed with American 'profiteers'

And for all their faults mate, the Glazers have fed F.ergie enough money to remain competitive in a market that's grossly over inflated by the laikes of Chelsea and City.
Leveraged buyouts are okay as long as there's more than enough to go round and pay for the debt, at Utd there is, we can all laugh and poke fun at Utd for their 400m debt, and the ways they're raising money etc, but they're reducing the debt year on year and still competing with clubs that can outspend them massively.

Arsenal will have a stadium paid for shortly, and have remained competitive.

All I want is for the owners to spend what we make, no more, no less.
We want their dealings to be transparent, if they're saving up for a new stadium/redelopment, tell us, if we can't have the new maradona because we still owe 40m from the last regime, tell us, that's all we want, we've been dicked massively a couple of years ago, we're on edge, trust is earned. Keep us in the loop, explain your actions and you'll have 200m supporters that will get behind you, and it will be as good as it get's. Unfortunately, if you start being underhand and sneaky we'll start investigating, and digging deeper, H&G thought they could get away with, and look where it got them.

[KirkVanHouten]

Ironically the only people at the club at the time were 'off the field' people, and they gaffed massively.
We have the same people making 'football decisions', when in fact it's not really their remit, and the one thing they could actually deal with they left to football people.

Honestly mate, you couldn't make this shit up.

It makes me feel like we should employ some person who's job it is to tell people they're not as smart as they think and to stick to their own jobs. The thing that really annoyed me was the stone cold silence from those off field people whilst Kenny and Suarez were getting it in the neck. You're right it's hard to believe that whole situation could have been handled any worse, when you have a Director of Football making translations and basically fucking Suarez over you just have to take a moment to pick your jaw off the floor and think 'Who the fuck is in charge?".

[L666KOP]

OK, I agree with your take on what we should have done. But how would RAWK have taken that -  Kenny believed Suarez was innocent and WANTED to show support, speak up on his behalf. If he'd been told to zip it and take it on the chin, he wouldn't have been happy - that would have got out, and RAWK would have been outraged at FSG's treatment of him and Suarez. In this very thread, right now, we'd be seeing the same people submit post after post referencing that incident with disgust at FSG.

My point is, once people decide they want to find fault, they can. There's no realistic way in the world they could have avoided mass criticism on here, for a situation they did not cause.

There's plenty of legitimate gripes with FSG,  but people should be fair.

It's the same with every scenario, the site is full of polar opposites, there'll be someone along shortly to completely disagree with my opinion, it makes neither of us right does it?
We can only judge as we find, but the point is to try and get your opinion over as eloquently and politely as you can.

But yeah, you're right, RAWK would have gone fucking apoplectic mate.

[tomred]

It makes me feel like we should employ some person who's job it is to tell people they're not as smart as they think and to stick to their own jobs. The thing that really annoyed me was the stone cold silence from those off field people whilst Kenny and Suarez were getting it in the neck. You're right it's hard to believe that whole situation could have been handled any worse, when you have a Director of Football making translations and basically fucking Suarez over you just have to take a moment to pick your jaw off the floor and think 'Who the fuck is in charge?".

To be fair Suarez didn't help matters with the non-handshake. And Kenny didn't help matters with the t-shirts. Neither are the biggest culprit--for me that's Ayre--but they didn't help themselves.

[L666KOP]

It makes me feel like we should employ some person who's job it is to tell people they're not as smart as they think and to stick to their own jobs. The thing that really annoyed me was the stone cold silence from those off field people whilst Kenny and Suarez were getting it in the neck. You're right it's hard to believe that whole situation could have been handled any worse, when you have a Director of Football making translations and basically fucking Suarez over you just have to take a moment to pick your jaw off the floor and think 'Who the fuck is in charge?".

I have a very good friend who happens to be a Manc, and we were talking about it as it unfolded, no bitterness at all, we both know and understand what goes on etc etc.
But he kept asking me why Kenny was dealing with it, and no one flew in from America, even the people at the club day to day were silent, and then we had the ridiculous shirts episode, that just compounded it.
And all the time I was wondering why FSG did nothing to quell the rage that was growing throughout the country.

And do you know what my mate said after the trial, he said "I reckon they've give Kenny the rope, and let him hang himself"

I agree with him.

[Eeyore]

OK, I agree with your take on what we should have done. But how would RAWK have taken that -  Kenny believed Suarez was innocent and WANTED to show support, speak up on his behalf. If he'd been told to zip it and take it on the chin, he wouldn't have been happy - that would have got out, and RAWK would have been outraged at FSG's treatment of him and Suarez. In this very thread, right now, we'd be seeing the same people submit post after post referencing that incident with disgust at FSG.

My point is, once people decide they want to find fault, they can. There's no realistic way in the world they could have avoided mass criticism on here, for a situation they did not cause.

There's plenty of legitimate gripes with FSG,  but people should be fair.

They own the Club and for me personally they should have a clear and concise policies in place to deal with such matters. Any company of a decent size has measures and procedures in place to deal with allegations of racism. The biggest problem with the Suarez incident was that we had no such measures in place and had absolutely no leadership from above.

It was farcical the way policies where made up on the Fly. The biggest worry for me is that we still have no leadership at the Club, we have owners and a board thousands of miles away in the states and no one of any stature at the Club running the Club. Ayre who is supposed to be running the Club went missing until the sponsors complained and then completely caved in. There was no pro-active action no managing of the situation and no plan, we reacted to things and reacted incredibly badly.

Compare that to Chelsea who had formulated their story and their strategy within minutes.

The biggest worry is if something similar happened tomorrow then I have absolutely no faith that Ayre would do any better. Lets face it he only opens his mouth to change feet and is a man of little stature and a propensity for gaffes. We need a political heavyweight running the Club, someone who will keep the press in their place, get us a voice within the FA's corridors of power and make people think twice before they take us on.

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

Winning the league is more important than cup wins, unless we are talking CL. However, the league was never on the agenda for last season, top four possibly, although it was always going to be a huge task. With extra pressure put on the team and kenny by FGS expecting CL football after one season of mediocre spending!!!!Given that we were  not going to win the league last season and wont win it this season, cup wins are the most logical avenue to success for the club and fans. Have a look at a programme, not just from Liverpool, from any team in the country. I only see league titles and cup wins on the honours list, not finishing 4th and qualifiying to quality for the CL.

The idiotic statement by FSG and Ayre that winning cups is unimportant is having an effect already. I have had at least 4 e-mails telling me that the sign up period for ST holders to enter the auto ticket scheme for cup games has been extended, for 1 final week, which went on for at least 3 weeks. Fans clearly value winning cups and having a great time in the process, but if FSG deem them unimportant them why should we shell out hard earned money for unimportant games?

No one has said the cups are unimportant, but the importance and benefits of staying competitive in the League is way more important.

The point is the League is a better measure of how well a team has performed over the course of a season. Birmingham won the LC and got relegated I suppose they should view that as success in your book because they weren't going to win the League anyway.

We spent enough money to see major improvement but those improvements never materialized.

[tomred]

They own the Club and for me personally they should have a clear and concise policies in place to deal with such matters. Any company of a decent size has measures and procedures in place to deal with allegations of racism. The biggest problem with the Suarez incident was that we had no such measures in place and had absolutely no leadership from above.

It was farcical the way policies where made up on the Fly. The biggest worry for me is that we still have no leadership at the Club, we have owners and a board thousands of miles away in the states and no one of any stature at the Club running the Club. Ayre who is supposed to be running the Club went missing until the sponsors complained and then completely caved in. There was no pro-active action no managing of the situation and no plan, we reacted to things and reacted incredibly badly.

Compare that to Chelsea who had formulated their story and their strategy within minutes.

The biggest worry is if something similar happened tomorrow then I have absolutely no faith that Ayre would do any better. Lets face it he only opens his mouth to change feet and is a man of little stature and a propensity for gaffes. We need a political heavyweight running the Club, someone who will keep the press in their place, get us a voice within the FA's corridors of power and make people think twice before they take us on.

Al, for you does the ultimate blame lie with Ayre or the owners? Can't really be both IMO. Either the owners for messing up by trusting Ayre to handle it or Ayre for not handling it correctly.

[Redeo]

All I want is for the owners to spend what we make, no more, no less.
We want their dealings to be transparent, if they're saving up for a new stadium/redelopment, tell us, if we can't have the new maradona because we still owe 40m from the last regime, tell us, that's all we want, we've been dicked massively a couple of years ago, we're on edge, trust is earned. Keep us in the loop, explain your actions and you'll have 200m supporters that will get behind you, and it will be as good as it get's. Unfortunately, if you start being underhand and sneaky we'll start investigating, and digging deeper, H&G thought they could get away with, and look where it got them.

Couldn't agree more! Spend what we make + keep us in the loop = good formula to demand. Cloaking their actions in mystery does them no good. Alienating key supporters groups, like SOS, doesn't help either. Coming up with one set of plans (e.g. DoF), only to renege in the space of weeks speaks of ineptitude, lack of true interest/passion for this club and of ulterior motives.
They've hired a new PR team, yet they're alienating the ardent supporters by keeping us in the dark.

[MatthewRedBlood]

I'm surprised people think we can fall even further. If you look at our Management team, and playing team since the Rafa era, it's unrecognizable in quality. Our league position is at its worst in the leagues history.

In my opinion we've dropped as far as we can for a club of our size. Finding ourselves below the likes of Everton, Newcastle and Tottenham. I know people will talk about Leeds and Nottingham forest but i think there's reason to be optimistic, quite frankly because in my mind things can't drop any lower in the league and the cups are viewed as a bonus and we've done well in those.

On the matter of FSG, i'm no financial expert, but from what i've seen i've been alright with them. They didn't have to re-invest the money from Torres but they did. They spent money on Henderson and Downing. People will always cling onto NET spending but in my mind, we're lucky to of had that money to spend, and i assure you now, had we spent that money well, we wouldn't be having these debates. They stem from the lack of quality in performance terms of those players. Many clubs sell players for great amounts and see very little to re-invest, from where i'm sat we've had almost all, if not all of it back. We just flushed it down the toilet on over-rated English shite.

Another debate seemingly coming and going is this.

Some believe that : It's Kenny/Comolli's fault we fucked up so badly in the transfer market. They chose the players, they negotiated the prices.

Others believe that: It's the fault of the owners for sanctioning the deals, and employing Kenny/Comolli.

Frankly i find the second one excuse making for the mistakes of a past legend, and people simply don't want to accept that Kenny's approach to the game was backward, and spent outrageous amounts of money on average players.

Those blaming FSG, i just don't get it. The conclusion i've come to is, "some people will never be happy, unless we're owned by Arab billionaires, and even then they'll fucking moan that our soul is gone."

I'm sorry if my argument seems amateur, i'm no accountant, but from a basic view, FSG backed the past regime well, got completely shafted (personally i believe Kenny/Comolli did the damage) and now they're being stricter with funds. Yes they're trimming the wage will but who expected Aquilani to stay? It's a very mixed opinion on Carroll and whether he even fitted at the club under Kenny let alone Brendan. Kuyt was on his last legs and Maxi was always going back to his old club.

How about we wait until the end of the transfer window before people start making their fucking FSG out banners. Think about our old owners, then think about what you're saying.

[Fat Scouser]

What was required was an immediate admission and apology, for using a word that was deemed unessessary in our country.
We should have 'internally banned' Luis for a couple of games and fined him a fortnights wages. And that would have been the end of it.
A statement released afterwards to explain what we'd done, why we'd done it, and that Luis was unaware he was causing any problems. Take one on the chin, and a week later everyone has forgot.

But hindsight is a wonderful thing.

FSG should have dealt with the matter, it wasn't up to Kenny.
But it rumbled on and on and on........

I could go and dig my posts up at the time. The very minute that came out I said we had to apologise imeadiately. I can't remember a single person agreeing with me. I said it would end up costing Kenny his job. It did.

I'm not trying to be a smart arse. There's nothing very smart about that anyway. It's simple common sense. And sometimes you have to step back from something that you're emotionally involved in and just look at it with simple basic common sense.

Sadly, people are becoming entrenched one side of the fence or the other. I've read through most of this now, sad bastard that I am, and I don't think I need to read another comment by some people as it's just became a mantra... FSG, Good!

I admit, the same could be said about me. I hate rich fat cats and thieving businessmen. I have no time for anyone that has hedge fund mentioned in the same sentence as them. I have no time for FSG (whoever that may be). I have no time for Henry, Werner or Ayre.

But just take a step back and look at the big picture. Take your emotions out of it. Stop being so entrenched in one camp or another. Look at FSG's arrival and time spent here from a nuetral perspective. I know what I see. I think the whole thing is pretty obvious, and I don't think it takes a Mystic Meg to see where it's headed. Once again, I admit, my mind is already made up when it comes to capitalism and capitalists. But I'm looking at this through the common sense of a 55 year old man that cut his teeth in The Boy's Pen... FSG couldn't give a fuck about anything but money. They'll sell up when they think the time is right for maximum profit. The next lot in behind them won't be any different.

This is modern day football. If I wasn't 55 years old and hadn't cut me teeth in The Pen, I'd turn me back on it, never look back and not give a fuck. I've actually tried to do just that, but the club is ingrained in me and I'll never be able to just stop caring. These fuckers are ruining our club and our game, in just the same manner as they have fucked everything else. LFC/Football means nothing to these people. The bottom line is the almighty dollar. Anyone denying that and defending them is either daft or devious. The sooner the whole thing collapses and the rebuilding starts, the better.

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

Then begs the question why he never had it written in his contract for a rise after a year (as many do) knowing the club and personnel would change and any agreement with Purslow would not then be with the next owners and/or manager.

It doesn't matter why because the management didn't want to keep him. Henderson his replacement was our first signing and start ahead of him in the first few games Meireles was here.

[tomred]

I could go and dig my posts up at the time. The very minute that came out I said we had to apologise imeadiately. I can't remember a single person agreeing with me. I said it would end up costing Kenny his job. It did.

Apologize immediately was a good call. Congratulations on your book too by the way.

Did it cost Kenny his job? Do you have evidence for that?

[tomred]

I'm surprised people think we can fall even further. If you look at our Management team, and playing team since the Rafa era, it's unrecognizable in quality. Our league position is at its worst in the leagues history.

In my opinion we've dropped as far as we can for a club of our size. Finding ourselves below the likes of Everton, Newcastle and Tottenham. I know people will talk about Leeds and Nottingham forest but i think there's reason to be optimistic, quite frankly because in my mind things can't drop any lower in the league and the cups are viewed as a bonus and we've done well in those.

On the matter of FSG, i'm no financial expert, but from what i've seen i've been alright with them. They didn't have to re-invest the money from Torres but they did. They spent money on Henderson and Downing. People will always cling onto NET spending but in my mind, we're lucky to of had that money to spend, and i assure you now, had we spent that money well, we wouldn't be having these debates. They stem from the lack of quality in performance terms of those players. Many clubs sell players for great amounts and see very little to re-invest, from where i'm sat we've had almost all, if not all of it back. We just flushed it down the toilet on over-rated English shite.

Another debate seemingly coming and going is this.

Some believe that : It's Kenny/Comolli's fault we fucked up so badly in the transfer market. They chose the players, they negotiated the prices.

Others believe that: It's the fault of the owners for sanctioning the deals, and employing Kenny/Comolli.

Frankly i find the second one excuse making for the mistakes of a past legend, and people simply don't want to accept that Kenny's approach to the game was backward, and spent outrageous amounts of money on average players.

Those blaming FSG, i just don't get it. The conclusion i've come to is, "some people will never be happy, unless we're owned by Arab billionaires, and even then they'll fucking moan that our soul is gone."

I'm sorry if my argument seems amateur, i'm no accountant, but from a basic view, FSG backed the past regime well, got completely shafted (personally i believe Kenny/Comolli did the damage) and now they're being stricter with funds. Yes they're trimming the wage will but who expected Aquilani to stay? It's a very mixed opinion on Carroll and whether he even fitted at the club under Kenny let alone Brendan. Kuyt was on his last legs and Maxi was always going back to his old club.

How about we wait until the end of the transfer window before people start making their fucking FSG out banners. Think about our old owners, then think about what you're saying.

My sentiments entirely.

[MatthewRedBlood]

If we signed someone quality and not Carroll for that £35 million would we be having this debate?

If we signed someone quality and not Stewart Downing for £20 million would we be having this debate?

If we signed someone quality not Jordan Henderson for £16 million would we be having this debate?

Frankly, the lack of ability from our signings, lead to massive under achievement on the pitch. The money was given, the money was spent.

Had we bought right, we'd of finished much higher and i doubt anyone would be questioning the owners.

In my eyes people questioning the owners simply just want someone to point the finger at. Can't blame Kenny/Comolli obviously, so the owners it is.

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

If we signed someone quality and not Carroll for that £35 million would we be having this debate?

If we signed someone quality and not Stewart Downing for £20 million would we be having this debate?

If we signed someone quality not Jordan Henderson for £16 million would we be having this debate?

In a nutshell, if we had done better in the market we would have had a much better season, Kenny would still be at the helm and we'd all be happy campers.

[Gnurglan]

As for Rogers, my gut instinct is that I cannot trust him.   Supposedly he is given all this control.  But in trying to match the picture he is trying to paint with the interviews and quotes, and what is actually happening, e.g., Aquilani is a good player vs. Aquilani one foot out of the door, I think he is either FSG's yes man, or he is powerless to stop what FSG wants to do.  In either case, I don't think he quite has the control that some seem to think he has.

For me, this lack of control, coupled with untested ability, means that Rogers is unlikely to be the person to take the club to the place we, as fans, want to be in.  Hence, my lack of trust.

We'll see about Rodgers. My concern is that he will be on his own. That he won't get the backing he needs from FSG, therefore he can't do what needs to be done. And unless he's a complete success, he'll be open for critisism. If we finish 5th, we can sack him, if players don't like him, we can sack him. He doesn't have a strong position, like for instance Capello would have had. People would have trusted him to make the right calls, even controversial ones. Because of his record. Rodgers doesn't have that to protect himself, so he needs FSG to back him all the way.

[MatthewRedBlood]

In a nutshell, if we had done better in the market we would have had a much better season, Kenny would still be at the helm and we'd all be happy campers.

Exactly. Problem is, people always need to point the finger. Can you blame Kenny for buying the players? It makes you a bad fan apparently so it's not his fault.

It's a good month until the end of the transfer window, we've had a lot of departures, and i think people are panicking thinking "FSG are tearing the club apart". Whereas i see that it's fairly obvious we'll be seeing new people come in towards the deadline day.

If they did it the opposite way for instance, done all the business at the start of the window, and had a massive over sized squad, Brendan and the owners would be accused of hanging onto dead weight, and not being ruthless enough.

Some people you just can't please

[Something Awful]

If we signed someone quality and not Carroll for that £35 million would we be having this debate?

If we signed someone quality and not Stewart Downing for £20 million would we be having this debate?

If we signed someone quality not Jordan Henderson for £16 million would we be having this debate?

That's the issue. Net spend or not that's 70 million pounds for one promising player, one who likely won't pan out, and one who might but is already on his way. If only we'd kept the Carroll money til the summer.

[Fat Scouser]

Apologize immediately was a good call. Congratulations on your book too by the way.

Did it cost Kenny his job? Do you have evidence for that?

Thank you.

As for the second part... Common Sense, Tom. As I said, just step back, look at the whole picture since they took over the club. It's pretty easy to see what's really gone on and where we are headed.

[tomred]

That's the issue. Net spend or not that's 70 million pounds for one promising player, one who likely won't pan out, and one who might but is already on his way. If only we'd kept the Carroll money til the summer.

Yes. You can't blame the owners for sanctioning transfer spend that by and large didn't work out at all.

[MatthewRedBlood]

It was the owners that employed Comolli.
It was the owners that bowed to pressure and appointed Kenny despite him, apparently, not being 'their man'.
It was the owners who then booted Kenny out, at expense, and replaced him with an unproven manager they paid for when 3 world class managers were available.
It's the owners that have Ayre installed as an effective MD.
It's the owners that have changed their strategy.

It's not as simple as you make out. The owners are the top of this tree, and when things go wrong - which regrettably they have - people are always going to look at the owners. When Barclays went tits up I highly doubt Bob Diamond was the only person there with his fingers in some not too pleasant pies, but he was the one that got stung because he was running the company. It's no different here.

Frankly at the time FSG took over, Kenny was the only option really, and even the back end of the season he had, i agreed with the decision.

My point is on money. Had the money been spent better, our team would of finished higher, and had we placed higher, would we question the owners. Like you say they're top of the tree, everything is reflected from the pitch. Kenny and Comolli had a very good budget and completely fucked it up. Had they spent better they'd still have their jobs.

What more could the owners of done? Picked the players themselves like Abramovic does?

[SMD]

Exactly. Problem is, people always need to point the finger. Can you blame Kenny for buying the players? It makes you a bad fan apparently so it's not his fault.

It's a good month until the end of the transfer window, we've had a lot of departures, and i think people are panicking thinking "FSG are tearing the club apart". Whereas i see that it's fairly obvious we'll be seeing new people come in towards the deadline day.

If they did it the opposite way for instance, done all the business at the start of the window, and had a massive over sized squad, Brendan and the owners would be accused of hanging onto dead weight, and not being ruthless enough.

Some people you just can't please

There's a difference between saying "I think Kenny made a mistake signing this player" and "I think Kenny should go because of these signings".

I don't know why you'd think we have an oversized squad, it wasn't big enough to cope with three competitions last year so with the addition of Europe we're still short. We needed another full back, defensive midfielder, wide player and striker last season - after Maxi, Dirk, Aquilani, Carroll, Bellamy all gone/rumoured to be going how does that leave us with dead weight? If we held onto all those players, we'd still have a comparable squad to the others in the top end of the table.

[Mutton Geoff]

In a nutshell, if we had done better in the market we would have had a much better season, Kenny would still be at the helm and we'd all be happy campers.

except Kenny was never part of their plans in the long term so would he still be here?

Had the players performed better it far too simplistic, Kenny was a plaster on a massive gash in the club and between the fans at the time, he put back together  the fanbase and most of the club, now they have removed the plaster and chucked it in the bin job done go back to plan A the young coach!

[Fat Scouser]

I don't know FS. I think they fired Kenny because of league position. I think the Suarez/Evra thing was a factor too, but secondary. I don't have irrefutable proof that this is the case, hence my asking you if you have proof the other way.

He was sacked before the Carling Cup final.

[Eeyore]

Al, for you does the ultimate blame lie with Ayre or the owners? Can't really be both IMO. Either the owners for messing up by trusting Ayre to handle it or Ayre for not handling it correctly.

For me it is FSG's fault for not putting a proper structure and proper people in charge of the Club. It amazes me that Comolli and Kenny get slaughtered for the people they brought in but FSG aren't judged in the same way. If you delegate something to people who aren't up to the job then surely it is your fault for making an error of judgement. Kenny was sacked from his last two jobs, Comolli was sacked from his last two jobs and Ayre was a disaster at Huddersfield. When you take a punt on three people with that kind of track record and it goes wrong how can you possibly avoid being blamed.

It seems though if your spin, PR and off the record briefings are good enough then you can pull it off. If FSG had been big enough to admit their mistakes and had brought in some proper experienced Football people into the boardroom then fine. They haven't they have just taken another punt on a manager with no track record to speak of.

I hope to God I am wrong but Brendan Rodgers record is a doppelgänger for the record of Mike Walker when he joined Everton. A man who talked a good game, played a nice style of football, came from youth Football and had one good season in the top flight. The difference was that Mike Walker got tiny Norwich into third place not mid table.

They haven't implemented a strategy that means changing managers doesn't mean changing the squad they have bottled their decision to have a DoF and have basically handed over a Club with no scouts to an incredibly inexperienced manager.

[tomred]

He was sacked before the Carling Cup final.

What was the league position then and what was the potential upside?

[TepidT2O]

not wishing to pick on this post in general but your argument could have been used last season and probably was for not getting a high earner in as cover for Lucas and how did that work out?

Your idea of getting rid of quality out of the squad for  a cheaper option is unless they replace like for like incredibly dangerous it fits with expecting Jay to do Lucas's job as well as him , or Morgan coming in for Suarez or Borini, he can do a job but will it be good enough right now!

All the top teams win and qualify for the CL (which is the new holy grail) by having a depth of quality in the squads not by diluting the quality at every transfer window as we seem to be doing! through bad buys and no buys at all.

Mind you so far i feel sorry for this Borini guy if you believe the spin in here he is replacing Maxi, Kuyt, Albert, Carroll, and what now maybe Bellamy as well i hope he is good and fast then!

As I said in my last post thank god Rafa had the foresight to get the academy on track, i reckon we will be seeing  the fruits of his labours a lot this season!

You're right on many counts.....

But I'm not talking about getting rid of the quality from the squad I'm talking about spending the highest wages on the highest performing players for the team..

As it stood last year some of our highest earners Aureilo, Cole, Aquilani, Carroll, Kuyt, maxi weren't in the first team on a regular basis..... So their wages were somewhat wasted...... (ok, two were on loan, but the thrust of my argument remains).

Now, you're damned right that the problem comes if their replacements aren't any good.

I suppose what we're seeking is "wage efficiency", but that won't happen if we sign crappy players as replacements.

[SMD]

What was the league position then and what was the potential upside?

http://www.premierleague.com/en-gb/matchday/league-table.html?season=2011-2012&month=FEBRUARY&timelineView=date&toDate=1330214400000&tableView=CURRENT_STANDINGS

7 points off 4th with a game in hand.

[Fat Scouser]

What was the league position then and what was the potential upside?

If that bollocks about league position really was the only yardstick FSG are going to use, don't you find that a wee bit worrying?

[MatthewRedBlood]

There's a difference between saying "I think Kenny made a mistake signing this player" and "I think Kenny should go because of these signings".

I don't know why you'd think we have an oversized squad, it wasn't big enough to cope with three competitions last year so with the addition of Europe we're still short. We needed another full back, defensive midfielder, wide player and striker last season - after Maxi, Dirk, Aquilani, Carroll, Bellamy all gone/rumoured to be going how does that leave us with dead weight? If we held onto all those players, we'd still have a comparable squad to the others in the top end of the table.

I don't think you get what i mean. I'm saying, had Rodgers brought in 6 players in the first two weeks of the window (or from when he was instated) add those too our current squad, and then the lads coming back on loan our squad would of been massive. Instead he's offloaded players from our past squad as well as looking to offload even more and the loanee's, which makes it look like we're shedding our wage bill. We'll sign people toward the end of the season to replace those we've sold, but people are getting a bit anxious without grounds.

There's a difference between saying "I think Kenny made a mistake signing this player" and "I think Kenny should go because of these signings".

Correct. I have my opinion, the only one that matters really is that of the owners and we know which one it was. They clearly expected more of their money (You'd be a liar if you said you were happy with how the money was spent).

[Passmaster Molby]

He was sacked before the Carling Cup final.

Any proof of that?

Henry stated Kenny was removed because during this calendar year (19 league games) we were sat in 17th place. Now I don't care who is manager of this club, that is simply unnacceptable and is a 100% valid reason for sacking any manager of this club, especially one given the financial backing he was given. To say he was sacked because of the Suarez incident is absolute guesswork.

[tomred]

For me it is FSG's fault for not putting a proper structure and proper people in charge of the Club. It amazes me that Comolli and Kenny get slaughtered for the people they brought in but FSG aren't judged in the same way. If you delegate something to people who aren't up to the job then surely it is your fault for making an error of judgement. Kenny was sacked from his last two jobs, Comolli was sacked from his last two jobs and Ayre was a disaster at Huddersfield. When you take a punt on three people with that kind of track record and it goes wrong how can you possibly avoid being blamed.

It seems though if your spin, PR and off the record briefings are good enough then you can pull it off. If FSG had been big enough to admit their mistakes and had brought in some proper experienced Football people into the boardroom then fine. They haven't they have just taken another punt on a manager with no track record to speak of.

I hope to God I am wrong but Brendan Rodgers record is a doppelgänger for the record of Mike Walker when he joined Everton. A man who talked a good game, played a nice style of football, came from youth Football and had one good season in the top flight. The difference was that Mike Walker got tiny Norwich into third place not mid table.

They haven't implemented a strategy that means changing managers doesn't mean changing the squad they have bottled their decision to have a DoF and have basically handed over a Club with no scouts to an incredibly inexperienced manager.

Thanks. That answer makes sense if you take the logical view that it was crazy to appoint Kenny/Comolli/Ayre. Is that your view? If so who should they have appointed? Not being confrontational BTW, just interested in the alternative position.

[MatthewRedBlood]

The fans were signing for Kenny when Roy was in charge.

Roy got sacked.

Kenny got put in. I think it's fair to say everyone was happy.

Kenny manages to reinvigorate the squad, and we pick up the second most points of anyone in the second half of the season.

All is well. Kenny is given an extended deal.

Kenny as an absolute fucking disaster in the window spending massive amounts of money on average players, the team finish 8th.

Kenny is shown the door

Liverpool fans on RAWK then blame the owners for A. Appointing Kenny in the first place because he wasn't the owners choice despite doing this to please the fans, and avoid potential riots had he not been appointed. B. Sacking Kenny and other staff for the deals they made with money given to them.

I'm astounded at how fucking stupid this thread is.

[tomred]

The fans were signing for Kenny when Roy was in charge.

Roy got sacked.

Kenny got put in. I think it's fair to say everyone was happy.

Kenny manages to reinvigorate the squad, and we pick up the second most points of anyone in the second half of the season.

All is well. Kenny is given an extended deal.

Kenny as an absolute fucking disaster in the window spending massive amounts of money on average players, the team finish 8th.

Kenny is shown the door

Liverpool fans on RAWK then blame the owners for A. Appointing Kenny in the first place because he wasn't the owners choice despite doing this to please the fans, and avoid potential riots had he not been appointed. B. Sacking Kenny and other staff for the deals they made with money given to them.

I'm astounded at how fucking stupid this thread is.

Don't be so cocksure. I tend to agree with your take but there are others who think differently and are explaining why. I think this thread is actually one of the better ones on the site for that very reason.

[Passmaster Molby]

The fans were signing for Kenny when Roy was in charge.

Roy got sacked.

Kenny got put in. I think it's fair to say everyone was happy.

Kenny manages to reinvigorate the squad, and we pick up the second most points of anyone in the second half of the season.

All is well. Kenny is given an extended deal.

Kenny as an absolute fucking disaster in the window spending massive amounts of money on average players, the team finish 8th.

Kenny is shown the door

Liverpool fans on RAWK then blame the owners for A. Appointing Kenny in the first place because he wasn't the owners choice despite doing this to please the fans, and avoid potential riots had he not been appointed. B. Sacking Kenny and other staff for the deals they made with money given to them.

I'm astounded at how fucking stupid this thread is.

Pretty much, plus they have now shown the bare faced cheek of actually doing what they had planned to do in the first place and appoint a young manager with great potential who can play the attractive attacking football they want to see.

The bastards.

[TepidT2O]

I'm not doubting you FS. Just asking the question. I think your view that Kenny's sacking was motivated by the Suarez affair needs to be backed by evidence. I'm saying so in a non-confrontational way.

League position must be the overwhelming reason for him leaving, but I think to suggest the Suarez affair played no part at all in him leaving is wrong.

When Mr Henry repsonded to question about comments by the gin soaked, bacon faced tramp, he noted league position quite clearly.  Also, he quite cleary didn't deny that it had played any part at all, just that league position was the key reason.

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

It was the owners that employed Comolli.
It was the owners that bowed to pressure and appointed Kenny despite him, apparently, not being 'their man'.
It was the owners who then booted Kenny out, at expense, and replaced him with an unproven manager they paid for when 3 world class managers were available.
It's the owners that have Ayre installed as an effective MD.
It's the owners that have changed their strategy.

By this logic, I take it we should praise Moores and Parry for winning the Champions League and FA Cup and absolve Roy from any blame for how shite we were under him because it was the owners/CEOs who employed them or does this only apply to FSG and Kenny

[Johnnyboy1973]

What more could the owners of done?

Not employed Comolli. A mate of mine laughed his bollocks and was told he would fuck up the club.

Kenny's targets may have been average, but the money spent on them is what is crippling us because at present, money appears to be our issue. That's down to whoever employed Comolli.

I have no problem with them shifting Aquilani and Carroll etc. in an effrot to recoup funds but that scramble is largely a result of them employing a proven mug to negotiate their transfers.