Author Topic: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended  (Read 118654 times)

Offline AnfieldRD19

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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #600 on: August 1, 2012, 06:53:58 am »
Last summer definitely set us back big time. With all the money that we spent we could have definitely turned our squad around. But looking at the whole thing from an optimistic point of view it surely could be worse. Fuck, we were days away from becoming bankrupt

Offline fowler9_god

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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #601 on: August 1, 2012, 07:33:21 am »
Couple points.

First, I imagine that FSG has the financial capacity to finance a new stadium. The Los Angeles Dodgers just sold for US$2 billion, the Red Sox are worth at least that if not much more. However, being able to "afford" a new stadium doesn't mean you should just build one.

New stadiums rarely make financial sense. How many English clubs have built new, privately financed 50,000+ seater stadiums over the last 20-30 years? Emirates is really the only one, and that deal was possible due to the presence of various factors (London corporate suites and ticket prices, sky-high value of the Highbury site, etc.) that simply don't exist for other clubs. If building a new stadium was a simple process, and a financial no-brainer, many more clubs would be doing it.

How many clubs have the fanbase that Liverpool does?

They are talking about rebuilding Anfield but why will the council allow that?

Why has the argument changed after JWH's letter? Mancs ,Arsenal earn far more matchday revenue's than us. I think the reason why Moores sold the club was because he couldn't build a stadium. If it wasn't for that need he'd still be here. I will never buy into them unless they do something about the stadium issue.

Simple truth is that FSG has solved the problems that came along with H&G but they haven't been able to solve the problems of why we needed them in the first place.

We are trying to sign on percentages and trying to sign undervalued players. For me, with that strategy we will never make it to the top 4.

Anyways, I feel they are here for the short term. Get the club on strong commercial foothold, increase the value of the club and sell it on to the next set.
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Offline fowler9_god

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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #602 on: August 1, 2012, 07:35:01 am »
Last summer definitely set us back big time. With all the money that we spent we could have definitely turned our squad around. But looking at the whole thing from an optimistic point of view it surely could be worse. Fuck, we were days away from becoming bankrupt

It could have I agree. But owners have to be ready to spend money. You can't expect in Football to spend 30m net in 2 windows and expect a side from 7th to go to 4th which was the expectation set by JWH.

There has to be continious investment for things to improve. Not pull the plug when it has failed once. Especially when we have a new manager and new ideas, we need to back him.
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Offline matthew45

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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #603 on: August 1, 2012, 08:18:10 am »
..can anyone set me at ease, at all? Anyone?

I'm really pleased you've written this because it reflects - almost exactly - something that I've felt for a while (since Suarez) but been unable to articulate.

I'm less certain about what to do about it. I've a vague plan to spend the money I would have spent on watching Liverpool touring Europe to watch foreign teams. It feels terribly disloyal but I'm not sure I can cope with all the spin and hype that goes with another 'new dawn'.
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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #604 on: August 1, 2012, 08:31:27 am »
For me the big test will be what happens with our wage bill over the next year, and whether or not we offer improved contracts to the players like Skrtel, Lucas and Suarez who have earned them. I don't have a problem with us getting rid of high paid players who aren't contributing much, so long as that money is made available for reinvestment in transfer fees and wages. I don't see that as accepting mediocrity. What goes hand in hand with that approach though, is that you are happy to pay the big wages to players who deserve them.

I'm cautiously optimistic about FSG, but they've still got a lot to prove. At the minute we've consistently finished top 8 with a top 4 wage bill. We've just got to hope that FSG intend for us to have a squad with top 4 quality on top 4 wages, not a top 8 side being paid top 8 wages.

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #605 on: August 1, 2012, 08:55:10 am »
If some of you are determined to criticise the owners then surely you should wait until they've actually done something wrong, rather than lambast them for what you think they're going to do wrong.

do yourself a favour at the top of the opinions section there is a sticky of the first interview Henry gave with his brand new world comments read them and then tick off the ones they have done, started or even still considering and see what you have left to be done or discarded already.

When people talk about accounts wage bills being paramount over the quality on the pitch i am reminding of these words

Liverpool FC was created to win things!

The money argument frankly is a smokescreen for reducing the outlay for them making the club look leaner and more attractive for the next venture capitalist to come along for a quick buck.

 FSG got this club for a virtual shoestring or Massive Swindle  (at a time when we would have dealt with the devil to get rid of H&G),  given the H&G valuation even if we only go for half of their one FSG aint close to paying that, they got the club after making certain assurances, pay off the debt well thats not completely been done and moving on the stadium situation, well that has had a lot of jaw jaw but nothing else. Meanwhile they sell the high earners which normally means your best players in the end,  bring in possibly a great manager but certainly a cheap one compared to the more illustrious names linked with us.

They increase the commercial revenue in all possibly areas in and out of the ground and globally so they are putting less in themselves, creating more revenue which is going where exactly obviously given what they are doing with the players and management its not going there, so where is it going? Not on other staff around Anfield i believe that has also been trimmed if not hacked.
Now that is some of my worries I am not an accountant never want to be but frankly i have supported this team for decades to watch good football, with passionate fans, with the best players we can get on the pitch and yes like every supporter I enjoy the team i support winning things be it games or trophies, i never have the same feeling of elation when i read the FT or look at a balance sheet, so this maybe simplistic but to me its looks like they are trying to run this club on the cheap to maximise their profits and produce a wonderful commercial product to sell on to the next guy.

Frankly  i see them gone in 2-3 years laughing all the way to the bank job well done, they have no interest in this city or this club other than perhaps a possible cash cow for them in the end. They have no respect for the club evident when one of them after eulogising over a cup win could not be arsed to stay and show their face at the Hillsborough Service, they have shown the greatest man this club and city know, no respect at the cup final itself with Henry that picture painted your real persona, and flying him to Boston to sack him and then giving us three different reasons for doing it each one contradicting the other!

So for we have people caring more about their sell on margins than this team and club's success, i see a cheap option for a coach who i will back because this isn't his fault and who could blame him for taking the job here! I see owners and MD's quite happy to dispense with the truth on many occasions and i also see our fans happy to go along with there drive for mediocrity and defending it like it was the new dawn,  maybe because their fingers were burnt with the last shambles and they will accept anything for a quiet life and to just discuss Football, i understand that i felt the same last season until the true FSG plan and there ineptitude to run this club correctly and professionally started to develop illustrated with their mishandling and downright neglect in the Suarez incident.

Also before i get the other old chestnut other than the total lack of respect from them I am happy Kenny has gone he deserved better from them and a lot of people in here and elsewhere, however my misgivings about FSG started way before that sacking it just added weight to it!

We also keep getting well they gave kenny x amount of money goes up with every post it seems and they always reference Andy forgetting of course that in real terms the total outlay for FSG themselves on  those deals was Torres+Babel out, Suarez + Carroll in and just above £1mill was the differential, we get 20 m for Henderson yeah if you believe SSN nearer 13, we get Downing 18 yes and may still come good if not we might take a hit of say Maxi's wages and Kuyt's  for this season selling him, then Adam peanuts and Coates well simply a good buy and cheap!

now maybe my concerns will turn out to be groundless, i bloody hope so! Sadly for now as far as FSG are concern the jury is well and truly out! I will judge them on what they do not what they say!

The only thing that might save this club on the pitch is the excellent youth development started by Rafa and now beginning to filter into the squad.
Thank god for his foresight!
« Last Edit: August 1, 2012, 09:08:12 am by geoffstrong »
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Offline rola

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I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #606 on: August 1, 2012, 08:57:02 am »
Understand where the op is coming from. Rumours are just that though. It's what actually happens next that matters though.
I think the next month will show exactly what the current club hierarchy are about.

If top players are allowed, or even encouraged, to leave and there's a failure to reinvest in the squad, then we'll know that the asset stripping had begun and that the primary objective is to improve the balance sheet and financial projections.

If Rodgers' taffy-taka system is meant to save the day then it will soon be clear if he has the players he wants and the backing he needs to implement it.

Its good that the talking and spin will need to backed up by action and delivery by both owners and manager.
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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #607 on: August 1, 2012, 09:03:26 am »
Boss post Macca

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #608 on: August 1, 2012, 09:03:54 am »
I shudder to think what its goin to be like on here when we lose 2 or 3 games.

i think you and others need to separate comments about FSG from backing the manager most fans will back Rogers win, lose or draw, except for the after match clowns,  its what we do, he isn't FSG he took on a great opportunity for him so no blame there, and it is possible to support the club and the manager and not support FSG.
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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #609 on: August 1, 2012, 09:08:51 am »
i think you and others need to separate comments about FSG from backing the manager most fans will back Rogers win, lose or draw, except for the after match clowns,  its what we do, he isn't FSG he took on a great opportunity for him so no blame there, and it is possible to support the club and the manager and not support FSG.

Indeed you're probably a more considered supporter if you support the club and manager but not FSG, given that our primary motives for interest in LFC are quite different. & before the usual tedious shite gets aired in response, that's not a call to arms, it's a call to monitor and hold them to account.

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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #611 on: August 1, 2012, 09:20:22 am »
do yourself a favour at the top of the opinions section there is a sticky of the first interview Henry gave with his brand new world comments read them and then tick off the ones they have done, started or even still considering and see what you have left to be done or discarded already.

When people talk about accounts wage bills being paramount over the quality on the pitch i am reminding of these words

Liverpool FC was created to win things!

The money argument frankly is a smokescreen for reducing the outlay for them making the club look leaner and more attractive for the next venture capitalist to come along for a quick buck.

 FSG got this club for a virtual shoestring or Massive Swindle  (at a time when we would have dealt with the devil to get rid of H&G),  given the H&G valuation even if we only go for half of their one FSG aint close to paying that, they got the club after making certain assurances, pay off the debt well thats not completely been done and moving on the stadium situation, well that has had a lot of jaw jaw but nothing else. Meanwhile they sell the high earners which normally means your best players in the end,  bring in possibly a great manager but certainly a cheap one compared to the more illustrious names linked with us.

They increase the commercial revenue in all possibly areas in and out of the ground and globally so they are putting less in themselves, creating more revenue which is going where exactly obviously given what they are doing with the players and management its not going there, so where is it going? Not on other staff around Anfield i believe that has also been trimmed if not hacked.
Now that is some of my worries I am not an accountant never want to be but frankly i have supported this team for decades to watch good football, with passionate fans, with the best players we can get on the pitch and yes like every supporter I enjoy the team i support winning things be it games or trophies, i never have the same feeling of elation when i read the FT or look at a balance sheet, so this maybe simplistic but to me its looks like they are trying to run this club on the cheap to maximise their profits and produce a wonderful commercial product to sell on to the next guy.

Frankly  i see them gone in 2-3 years laughing all the way to the bank job well done, they have no interest in this city or this club other than perhaps a possible cash cow for them in the end. They have no respect for the club evident when one of them after eulogising over a cup win could not be arsed to stay and show their face at the Hillsborough Service, they have shown the greatest man this club and city know, no respect at the cup final itself with Henry that picture painted your real persona, and flying him to Boston to sack him and then giving us three different reasons for doing it each one contradicting the other!

So for we have people caring more about their sell on margins than this team and club's success, i see a cheap option for a coach who i will back because this isn't his fault and who could blame him for taking the job here! I see owners and MD's quite happy to dispense with the truth on many occasions and i also see our fans happy to go along with there drive for mediocrity and defending it like it was the new dawn,  maybe because their fingers were burnt with the last shambles and they will accept anything for a quiet life and to just discuss Football, i understand that i felt the same till last season until the true FSG plan and there ineptitude to run this club correctly and professionally started to develop.

Also before i get the other old chestnut other than the total lack of respect from them I am happy Kenny has gone he deserved better from them and a lot of people in here and elsewhere, however my misgivings about FSG started way before that sacking it just added weight to it!

We also keep getting well they gave kenny x amount of money goes up with every post it seems and they always reference Andy forgetting of course that in real terms the total outlay for FSG themselves on  those deals was Torres+Babel out, Suarez + Carroll in and just above £1mill was the differential, we get 20 m for Henderson yeah if you believe SSN nearer 13, we get Downing 18 yes and may still come good if not we might take a hit of say Maxi's wages and Kuyt's  for this season selling him, then Adam peanuts and Coates well simply a good buy and cheap!

now maybe my concerns will turn out to be groundless, i bloody hope so! Sadly for now as far as FSG are concern the jury is well and truly out! I will judge them on what they do not what they say!

The only thing that might save this club on the pitch is the excellent youth development started by Rafa and now beginning to filter into the squad.
Thank god for his foresight!

Why do you think we were undervalued when FSG bought the club? We we're only worth what someone was preared to pay for us. Three years before FSG bought the club G&H paid £180 million of the top of my head for a club that had won the CL a few years earlier and was in a much better position then October 2010 and that Moores and Parry had spent years trying to find a buyer for. FSG paid £200 million for a club that was loosing its best players, had just finished 5th, out of the CL and which Broughton/RBS had spent months trying to find a buyer. Not sure how you can call that any kind of bargain.

FSG getting better commercial deals is worrying you? If they didnt get them they would be compared to Rick Parry, and if they do its because of their evil plan to quickly get shot of the club?

As for trimming the wage bill, do you think we get any kind of value for money from our wage bill? We have one of the worst money vs points ratio in the league, we waste so much money on average players, surely reducing the wage bill so it can be directed towards better players is no bad thing. And if they are cutting costs and not reinvesting those savings back into the club the accounts will show that.

As for the Henry picture at the cup final, he looks pretty pissed off for a guy who apparently doesnt give a shit how we do on the pitch...

And what do you base the concern about sell on marhins from? if that was all they were worried about they surely they wouldnt have sanctioned the signings of Downing or Carrol, both of who were risks with little gurantee about their sell on value.
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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #612 on: August 1, 2012, 09:30:40 am »
Indeed you're probably a more considered supporter if you support the club and manager but not FSG, given that our primary motives for interest in LFC are quite different. & before the usual tedious shite gets aired in response, that's not a call to arms, it's a call to monitor and hold them to account.
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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #613 on: August 1, 2012, 09:39:51 am »
I back Rogers. I hope he succeeds. Of course that depends on the owners. If Rogers says they are working hard to sign players then fair enough, i just hope for his sakes they are and at the end of the window we dont get any excuses. FSG have made their comments, their decisions and amde their play, now we have to see if it they have the desire to follow it through.
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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #614 on: August 1, 2012, 09:40:06 am »
i think you and others need to separate comments about FSG from backing the manager most fans will back Rogers win, lose or draw, except for the after match clowns,  its what we do, he isn't FSG he took on a great opportunity for him so no blame there, and it is possible to support the club and the manager and not support FSG.

theoretically yes........but doesn't alter the fact that it'll be Rogers that gets it in the neck on here and elsewhere when we lose....

on the plus side, Snake Eye Salesman is a step up from Fat Spanish Waiter
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Offline helmboy_nige

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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #615 on: August 1, 2012, 09:41:06 am »
There are some great comments on here which, for me, highlight the biggest problem.

We have become proponents of the continual revolution.  Ever since the troops mobilised to fight off H&G we've forgotten how to get back to being football fans/supporters.  This is not meant as an attack on the work done by the fans to rid the club of the cancers, because without them there would not be a club now.  But once the victory was secured the group fractured and suddenly didn't have a war to fight.  And when that happens you end up with people looking for a battle even when one doesn't exist.  There were individual battles that have built up and died away (like supporter ownership, get rid of Hodgson etc), but the crux of all this is, that the fight against H&G has fundamentally changed the way we support the club.

Some of this is a good thing.  We are vigilant and ready to mobilise again.  The downside is that the famous patience of Liverpool fans appears to have disappeared.  Rafa puts in one bad season after working miracles and the knives come out.  Hodgson lasts 6 months (deservedly so, but still valid).  Kenny fails to get us back to the top of the pile in his first full season so is cast aside.

Now the ultimate reasons for pulling the plug on each of these managers comes down to the owners whims, but we all play a part.  The fans (not all, but a lot) turned on Rafa.  The fans never really wanted Hodgson.  The fans may not have fully turned on Kenny, but FSG recognised that there was enough fracture and disillusionment within the fan base to cut him loose.

Now we have a new manager who will not be judged over the course of a couple of seasons, but before a ball has been kicked.  We have judgement being laid on the owners based on rumour and conjecture.

There is a difference between vigilance and militancy and sadly what I see within our fan base is a split between the blind optimists ("it'll be fine, we'll be back at the top in no time"), the vigilant guard ("we welcome FSG, but you need to earn our trust") and the militants ("FSG are selling players, it's like H&G all over again, we need to take back our club").

There was a time to be militant (2008 - 10), and maybe there will be again.  But right now what we need is to get back to supporting the club and showing some of that old-fashioned patience.  Unfortunately, I just don't think everyone is willing to do that and with FSG having shown form by sacking two managers in their first 2 years the fans have an excuse to not be patient with Rodgers either.

In terms of what is going on right now, I have... concerns.  However, they are concerns based on a lack of transfer activity and lack of true information.  Rumours spread like wild-fire but the last time I checked Agger, Skrtel, Suarez, Reina and Lucas were still at the club.  And as others have mentioned, if we were to believe the rumour mill then Reina would have left us either last summer or the summer before.

Continual revolution will only serve to destroy stability in the club and leave us sliding down the league.

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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #616 on: August 1, 2012, 09:48:51 am »

Good post mate.

It's good to see we can have a conversation on here, even though a lot of us have completely contrasting views.

I dont agree with a lot of the things you said.

You give FSG far too much credit IMO. They took a massive gamble on Rodgers and we still have no clue why. The point is, these are people who have absolutely no clue about the sport of football. They dont understand it. I cant just get behind a decision and say "he fits the plan" because we 1) have no idea what the plan really is 2) the plan has changed so much in 2 years it's hard to keep up with what they want 3) we have no idea how a bunch of people who know nothing about the sport actually formulated that plan.

The only arguments in favor of Rodgers is that he's young, plays nice football and is cheap. Those are the 3 pros with him. But we have no clue why FSG want a young manager in the first place.

They've entrusted a man with so little experience with one of the most difficult jobs in world football, a job that has almost killed a couple of our previous managers and one that has seriously affected a couple of others. We have no idea why.

See, if FSG were football men, if FSG had a team of football men in place making the football decisions, I could get behind the argument that they know what they're doing. I may not agree with it, but I could understand it. But as it stands, they dont have a team in place. They're taking decisions on firing and hiring, planning and strategising based on... what exactly? We have no clue. And as such, it's amazingly hard to see men like Capello, Aloysius Paulus Maria "Louis" van Gaal and Rafa passed over in favor of someone with such limited experience.

And yes, I think he's a fake and yes I have no evidence for this apart from gut feeling. I cant explain it and I certainly wont be able to convince anyone. But that's my feeling. Every time he speaks and does that thing when he puts his head back, I feel something isnt right. Every time he talks about his "methods", I shake my head. That interrview he did when he said we were a stepping stone, the comments from Swans fans that he loved himself way too much etc... Again, this is nothing tangible and I know some people will think Im a fool but there you go. The person he reminds me the most of is George Gillett unfortunately. I had exactly the same feeling while hearing Gillett talk in his first press conference: what a brilliant bullshitter.

Hopefully Ill be as wrong about Rodgers as I was right about George.

Finally, your point about Pep and Allegri. 2 excellent examples which, IMO, reinforces one of my points.

Phoney or not, Rodgers need help. There is no fucking structure in place at the club to help him. Allegri had Galliani, Pep had Txixi etc... Rodgers has noone bar Ian Ayre.

Kenny Dalglish had Sir Bob to help him, Evans had Ronnie Moran. Both had Peter Robinson. Rodgers has noone bar Ian Ayre and a bunch of owners who know more about the weather in the USA then they do about the sport of football. He has very limited experience but that would be Ok if he had support around him: but he doesnt. There's a vacum at the club which doesnt exist at Milan or Barca. There's the difference. There's the shocking lack of planning by FSG right there and there's the major concern of why the fuck they entrusted such a young man with one of the most pressurised jobs in world football without giving him a support network to see him through.

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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #617 on: August 1, 2012, 09:49:55 am »
Generally this thread has been argued well from both sides with excellent posts on both 'sides'. Yesterday I sat on it and deleted any personal stuff, shit one liners etc. As No666 points out it's not about Rodgers, he will be given support. Please continue to keep it from the tedious circular shite and we might be treated to some of the great insight that is on this site from both sides of the fence
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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #618 on: August 1, 2012, 09:54:47 am »
Finally it feels as though we're moving in the right direction, just hold fire and keep an eye out, but for god sake - lets not trample on him before he's even warmed his seat.

Very good post that mate, as ever.
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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #619 on: August 1, 2012, 09:58:18 am »
There seems to be about 3 types of opinion...
1: People - like me - who don't trust people that have words like hedge fund attached to them.
2: People who remain a bit wary but optimistic in general.
3: People who are determined to defend FSG no matter what and attack any one who dares question them at every opportunity.

I know which side of the fence I'm on. Nobody has said a single word that makes me doubt my opinion. In fact, the more they scream - "You want a Sugar Daddy. LFC have to succeed for FSG to succeed, and Look at the Red Sox" - they just convince me I am right.

It's bloody laughable. We've had years of turmoil as a club all caused by the money men. We're in the worst economic times since the banking/financial collapse of the 1920's. We're seeing whole countries go skint. The whole bloody thing is teetering on the brink of absolute chaos and collapse. It's all been caused by the greed of the money men. It's all going to have to be paid for by the poor working man. And, just like the bankers that caused all this calamity, the only thing I keep getting told is "Trust."

Fuck off, Trust my arse.
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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #620 on: August 1, 2012, 09:59:01 am »
TRUST IN ME.....
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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #621 on: August 1, 2012, 09:59:16 am »


That's a cracking post and agree with pretty much all of it.

This thread has actually been very insightful, I thought it would fall into the trap of many of the other pro/anti FSG threads, but credit to all posters in here.

Offline Rafasacolytereturns

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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #622 on: August 1, 2012, 09:59:54 am »

They increase the commercial revenue in all possibly areas in and out of the ground and globally so they are putting less in themselves, creating more revenue which is going where exactly obviously given what they are doing with the players and management its not going there, so where is it going?


The thing is a club should be self sustaining, the AC Milan style model of fat cat benefactors plowing in 100's of millions of pounds of their personal wealth into a football club is dangerous, not in the short term, but in terms of the human life cycle. That money or that benefactor with all the cash and good will won't be around forever, for example if an aging Berlusconi was to have popped his clogs 5 years ago, where would Milan be now? 

Its also actually happened at Nottingham Forest and the new owners have already set my alarm bells ringing by immediatley sacking Sean O Driscoll, their looking for a " legendary manager" apparently.

Mick Mcarthy was interviewed for the job. (No sniggering at the back)

It's a problem that, going back to AC Milan, have recognised and they have started to make inroads into resolving, which has culminated in the club selling two of their biggest stars this summer, all to arrest the slide of the massive losses they where making year on year. (The swiss ramble website goes into more detail than I ever could)

My point is as a fan you WANT your club to be self sustaining, you don't want to rely on some sugar daddy to prop you up year on year, the club ideally should be making enough revenue to finance the day to day runnings of a club AND still have enough left to compete in the transfer market.

Now in the days of massively over inflated transfer fees and ridiculously astronomical wages, it is forcing every football club owner and board member to make some hard choices, you need to invest in the team to improve your club, but investing too much on player x's wages could tip the finances over the edge if you don't get european football or in the case of teams like Portsmouth and Leeds, don't avoid relegation.

So where do you strike the balance?

It's a very fine line that can be crossed in the space of one season, who would have ever thought Leeds at the start of the 03/04 season would have been relegated from the Premier league? With the talent they had? Fowler, Viduka, Robinson, Milner, Kewell, Smith and Radebe, yet still it happened.

What I like about are owners is that they are TRYING to make us as competitive as possible revenue wise, TRYING to reach that sustainable cycle of a club supporting itself rather they relying on a benefactor. That is the golden goose, an entity that sustains itself so to speak.

This is what I see the owners trying to do (in my opinion) its not a bad thing, wealthy owners who plough all their money into a club only last as long as their bank balance or their life cycle, as we are seeing currently with Manchester City, but also witness the implosion of Glasgow Rangers as evidence of what happens when the well runs dry.

If FSG can get LFC to the point it can sustain its day to day running costs AND afford to net spend £20-30 million on player transfers (not including player sales) within the next ten years, then the clubs future for the next generation will be assured and as a happy coincidence we will also be competitive with the top 6 teams around us, which in turn will lead us to being competitive in Europe's premier competitions.

We have to accept at the moment, in the short term, it will take a consistent and significant over performance of the player's, manager and coaching staff to overcome the likes of the Manchester teams and Chelsea.

We are competing with Arsenal, Newcastle and Tottenham for that fourth slot in the short term. However if the owners can lay the revenue building infrastructure now AND get it correct along with keeping us competitive in the big games and cup competitions then the future will be bright, not as rosy as we would like RIGHT NOW but as fans we have needed to adjust our expectations somewhat over the last 4 years.

FSG will make mistakes, as do we all, but we need to judge them by their intentions, the direction they point the club in and their long term vision, not just their performance over the last 18 months which hasn't been perfect, but it hasn't been awful either.

Kenny's return and seeing the team win a trophy in its first full season under FSG ownership cannot be seen as a catastrophy no matter how disappointed some fans were with our league performance and transfer policies.

Adjusting our expectations in the short term is perhaps the biggest challenge our fan base has had thrust in front of us since the reign of the cancers reached its nadir, but as Macca pointed out earlier, we need to keep that vigilance we gained from that horrific experience but we also need to give the new incumbent's time and patience to let the seeds of their plan bear fruit.

That requires a significant show of faith over the next 3-4 years, its a huge challenge, but we pride ourselves on being one of the most patient and probably, best set of fans in the world, its going to be interesting to see if we can live up that name.
« Last Edit: August 1, 2012, 10:12:08 am by Rafasacolytereturns »
We where spoiled under Benitez.....too many fans had grown fat feasting on his rich offerings...convincingly beating the likes of Real Madrid, Inter and AC Milan,  Juventus and Barcelona....we started to expect these kinds of victories as standard... and like spoilt brats, when things started to go wrong, we threw our toys out the pram.

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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #623 on: August 1, 2012, 10:02:22 am »
People need to remember the state the club was in 3 years ago. Under a mountain of debt, infighting, being run like a joke by G&H.

To get back from that to a club that is solid financially and competing firstly to be in the CL and then to win that and the PL is no quick fix. Especially as the owners plan on doing it the right way, i.e. using the clubs own funds and not pumping millions after millions in, alla City or Chelsea.

You can't expect the mistakes from the previous two ownerships (Moores for being an inept business man, G&H for just being inept) to be sorted straight away.

The playing squad needed to be changed. Players given silly wages need to be moved on (this won't happen fast in most cases as no one can afford them, e.g. Cole). But this will see some of the better players wanting to leave as the club gets itself back up there, and there is much we can do about that. If they want to go then they go. The hope is that when they go the owners give all the money back to the manager, and that the manager spends it wisely. This didn't happen under Comolli/Kenny and as a result it has put the rebuilding back even further.

The clubs revenues need to be increased to allow us to spend more. Hopefully this is where we can see the improvement happening, with the likes of Warrior, Chevrolet, etc. all being signed up. Again this will take time as big deals don't just come about over night but they do appear to be happening.

The stadium issue was a joke. Alan wrote up a great piece before FSG came in about the HKS design and how it had seats in it that wouldn't be able to see any of the pitch, and some which just allowed half to be seen. A big gap in the Kop which allowed you to stand on the concourse and watch the game. A ridiculously small stand opposite the Kop with the idea to build it up, only planning wouldn't be given for that as would need silly amount's of investment in the railway line. Etc. Go and read it as is a real eye opener. And we have had Peter who has constantly (going back years) stressed a new stadium would cripple the club financially (the time to build it was 12 years ago when Moores released plans). This has meant ripping up over £50m of drawings and doing a full review of the situation - which appears to be drawing to a close if you go and read various local resident committee forums where locals have been offered deals for their houses behind the Main Stand, removing the issues which have previously put stop to redevelopment.

Mistakes have and will be made. Of course they will as no one is perfect and it's no easy job. And some fans will get pissed at certain decisions where others won't - with a fan base as large as ours thats bound to happen.

Sorry for bringing this up from a few pages back but I'd like some clarification here.

Are you,a Liverpool fan,saying that on top of slashing the wage bill and spending as little as possible on incoming transfers,you would be comfortable with some of our best players leaving the club?

And this would happen at the same time "as the club gets itself back up there", all this being in the name of progress?
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Offline itsgunnabebarnes!

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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #624 on: August 1, 2012, 10:02:53 am »
We are the 5th or 6th best team in the country, we cannot attract superstars, the only way to combat this is to build for the future. This is where Rodgers comes in. I take finishing 6th or lower if we got a settled manner of play and blooded youngsters in that mould . We can't just jump back into the elite anymore
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Offline Brentieke

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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #625 on: August 1, 2012, 10:10:08 am »
We are the 5th or 6th best team in the country, we cannot attract superstars, the only way to combat this is to build for the future. This is where Rodgers comes in. I take finishing 6th or lower if we got a settled manner of play and blooded youngsters in that mould . We can't just jump back into the elite anymore

The greatest trick LFC ever pulled was convincing its fans we couldnt get top class players without CL football.

It's utter horseshit.

There are 2 ways to get them players: CL football and high wages.

Luis Suarez was a top class player that we bought when a coupe of points away from relegation. We offered him good money and got him, and we saw the impact he had on our side.

Ribery joined Munich in 2007 with no CL but they offered him high wages, the chance to play for a big club and a vision for the future. The likes of Cazorla went to Malaga for better money but with no CL.

The simple fact is, we'd rather buy a bunch of Hendersons and Adams, players on medium wages. We dont want to spend money on high wages. We've wasted so much money in the last 4 years that thats understandable.

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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #626 on: August 1, 2012, 10:11:53 am »
So you want us to gamble the club on high wages when we can't shift the high earners we have that would not get in villas team?
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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #627 on: August 1, 2012, 10:12:59 am »
So you want us to gamble the club on high wages when we can't shift the high earners we have that would not get in villas team?
No he wants us to gamble on signing players that are already at CL teams. Something we've not tried since Luis Suarez and Raul Meireles incidentally. Both of whom contributed a lot more than any other signings made around their time. Fuck even Bellamy came from a CL team and contributed more than those signed from mid table clubs.

It's mad that most of you think that we can't sign CL players. In fact it's ridiculous, even Newcastle managed to snare Cabaye and Ben Arfa, both who decided to forego CL football at Marseille and Lille to play for fucking Newcastle.
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Offline itsgunnabebarnes!

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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #628 on: August 1, 2012, 10:15:14 am »
No he wants us to gamble on signing players that are already at CL teams. Something we've not tried since Luis Suarez and Raul Meireles incidentally. Both of whom contributed a lot more than any other signings made around their time. Fuck even Bellamy came from a CL team and contributed more than those signed from mid table clubs.

Well blame the signings on the mangers they're the ones who want cheap two for ones instead of a prize capture. Last summer was a fuck up and has set us back years.
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Offline steveeastend

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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #629 on: August 1, 2012, 10:15:29 am »
Sorry for bringing this up from a few pages back but I'd like some clarification here.

Are you,a Liverpool fan,saying that on top of slashing the wage bill and spending as little as possible on incoming transfers,you would be comfortable with some of our best players leaving the club?

And this would happen at the same time "as the club gets itself back up there", all this being in the name of progress?

Trying to understand the logic of the FSG followers isn´t easy mate, I´ve been trying for quite a while and I can tell you it requires a lot of fantasy and ignoring, mixed up exactly as been told from our P.R.
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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #630 on: August 1, 2012, 10:17:24 am »
We can't just jump back into the elite anymore
Maybe not. But we can't half fucking jump out of it. This club constantly and consistently shoots itself in the foot. We weren't knocked off any perch. We belly flopped off it. A few seasons ago we were rated the number 1 team in Europe. We knocked that fella off his perch. It's became a soap opera. I don't think we've seen the final episode yet.
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Offline Brentieke

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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #631 on: August 1, 2012, 10:18:19 am »
Well blame the signings on the mangers they're the ones who want cheap two for ones instead of a prize capture. Last summer was a fuck up and has set us back years.

Yet we seem to be doing the same thing this Summer.

We're going for the same sort of players: players who are young, come from mid table teams with the added criteria that Rodgers must have coached them at some point.

Im not saying I want us to gamble huge wages. Im saying stop peddling the line that top class players wont come to us: they will, if we show them the money. But it's patently obvious that we dont have the money or dont want to show them the money.

Like Scatman said, football's littered with transfers of CL playing players to non CL playing teams.
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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #632 on: August 1, 2012, 10:19:37 am »
The greatest trick LFC ever pulled was convincing its fans we couldnt get top class players without CL football.

It's utter horseshit.

There are 2 ways to get them players: CL football and high wages.

Luis Suarez was a top class player that we bought when a coupe of points away from relegation. We offered him good money and got him, and we saw the impact he had on our side.

Ribery joined Munich in 2007 with no CL but they offered him high wages, the chance to play for a big club and a vision for the future. The likes of Cazorla went to Malaga for better money but with no CL.

The simple fact is, we'd rather buy a bunch of Hendersons and Adams, players on medium wages. We dont want to spend money on high wages. We've wasted so much money in the last 4 years that thats understandable.



Apparently Suarez's wages are not that high, hence the clubs is supposed to be trying to get him to sign an extension on higher wages, an approach I like, if they perform, give them inproved contracts by all means. As for Malaga, they are owned by some wealthy arabs now too, the kind that buy success, the kind we dont apparently want.

As for Ribbery, its not as if Bayern were gonna spend long out of the CL now was it, they win the league more or less every other year so not sure how valid that is an example. They may spend a season or two out of the CL in 2007, we have had 3 already and thats not about to change anytime soon.
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Offline Walshy nMe®

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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #633 on: August 1, 2012, 10:19:40 am »
Is the time to be concerned after it's all done?

After what is all done?

People will moan about anything.

As long as the club is run well, makes money for players and the management get the players they want, sell the players they want, I don't care if we have a net spend of £1bn or a saving of £1bn, if the owners can afford it and they want to spend it, let them.

On the same note I don't care if our owners are from mars, as long as they act with the club's interests at heart.

On the Carroll thing, if Rodgers doesn't see him fitting in, then get rid.  Next year if Carroll doesn't feature much is value has as much chance as dropping as increasing, so arguably now is the time to get rid. 

Just because we aren't linked with a million players in the press, doesn't mean we aren't going to sign anyone.

But yeah, the time to moan is when something bad happens. Just because people aren't privy to the whole picture on what is happening at the club, they hear one titbit and panic.  A little knowledge is a bad thing.  Wait and see what happens and then if you don't like it, moan about it.

Rodger's and his team aren't going to fix everything in one pre season, but already the knives are out because he isn't a massive name and he has the gall to think about selling some of our players

Offline steveeastend

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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #634 on: August 1, 2012, 10:20:48 am »
Ribery joined Munich in 2007 with no CL but they offered him high wages, the chance to play for a big club and a vision for the future. The likes of Cazorla went to Malaga for better money but with no CL.

The simple fact is, we'd rather buy a bunch of Hendersons and Adams, players on medium wages. We dont want to spend money on high wages. We've wasted so much money in the last 4 years that thats understandable.

Ribery wanted to leave very, very often but Honess made it clear there is absolutely no chance for him to... just what you expect from a big club with ambitions.

We keep on letting all our technical gifted players go because of a number of strange reasons. Players having no balls and wifes not speaking english and if this doesn´t work the club makes up some wages and the public believe we cannot afford them anymore.

In january, when having some injuries or players away for international duty we will be forced to play the likes of Morgan, Spearing, Flanagan and I am expecting the calls for patience back in full swing then at the latest.
« Last Edit: August 1, 2012, 10:24:06 am by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline edmundljs

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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #635 on: August 1, 2012, 10:26:24 am »
How interesting this thread is. As all the turmoil unfolds, I have been subconsciously hand-picking threads that are often going to end up lightening my heart to read. Upon reading this thread it dawned upon me that there is a fair share of supporters are turning their backs on FSG. To me, I have always hope they will eventually come good (even they hurt me deep by sacking the King), but these supporters actually have a point. However, I guess my approach will probably be "wait and see".

At the end of the day, when you are rock bottom, the only way is up.

Offline steveeastend

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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #636 on: August 1, 2012, 10:28:58 am »
At the end of the day, when you are rock bottom, the only way is up.

Did we already? If we manage to be similiar "successful" in transfers as last season it could be even worse. Sounds horrible but football is a cruel game, you won´t win anything with good intentions.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline BirdBrain

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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #637 on: August 1, 2012, 10:29:37 am »
The only concern I have re: transfers is the continual dragging of heels over cutting deals that seems to have been here since the Benitez days. I expect we will lose out on more targets (to Spurs :P). But its early days as has been noted.
The other concern is that we finish 7th or 8th again, which in Liverpool terms means we change the manager and all the talk of structures and culture and style of play goes out the window again. No pressure, Brendan.


Offline dotheoffski

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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #638 on: August 1, 2012, 10:31:05 am »

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Re: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended
« Reply #639 on: August 1, 2012, 10:32:38 am »
Did we already? If we manage to be similiar "successful" in transfers as last season it could be even worse. Sounds horrible but football is a cruel game, you won´t win anything with good intentions.

I believe this is as low as LFC can get, because I believe. Liverpool is not going to lose all its supporters overnight, and based on that we will always be a big club meant for big things.