Topic: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended

[Mutton Geoff]

I think we need to separate the crappy deals done before FSG, the likes of Kuyts buy out clause, Aquilani, Cole's and Carra's wages, etc. as no matter what the club is going to have to take a hit on those. And it is going to hurt us in the short term but hopefully within the next year all those pre-FSG mistakes will be sorted out.

Then we have the big mess from last summer, namely two which are Carroll and Downing (due to initial fee, age, or both). With the jury still out on Henderson (who you'd hope would still have a decent sell on fee and people wanting him). The others are lower cost (namely Adam) so we should be OK moving on should the need be there.

The big test will be FSG allowing Rodgers to make the call to get rid of the players he wants to get rid of, even if it means a hefty loss, and still providing funds for him to purchase replacements. Obviously replacing Carroll won't be Rodger's getting another £25-35m to spend, but he shouldn't need that to improve upon Carroll (otherwise you don't get rid). We won't really have a real idea on what FSG have allowed until the end of the transfer window.

why do we need to separate out the points you have no answer for?

 Mind  you its clever are you in politics?

[CraigDS]

why do we need to separate out the points you have no answer for?

 Mind  you its clever are you in politics?

Because FSG didn't make those deals (other than Kuyt, which they did) so whatever they have to do to clear the mess that was left up is going to have to be done. I didn't say they shouldn't be looked at for how they sort them out, just that they didn't create the mess.

Not sure if you're trying to pick up on a point that isn't there to be arsey?

[Euskadi]

Yes, they do. Healthy distrust/wariness is fine. Rampant paranoid, conspiracy theories and fearmongering is not. BR said he'd do transfers late due to the two major competitions this summer, so let's wait and see.

This. I appreciate that there is some caution in parts but as you can tell from what the FSG have done, they are trying to implement a structure from the top , under the old regime we had a brilliant footballing structure purely down to Rafa but the rest was an absolute shambles. These guys obviously want a uniform structure and philosphy from the bottom up in order to get that identity back which we somewhat have lost due to having too many different managers in the past few years and of course the cancers.

They are looking to make a profit no one denies that, who wouldn't? But that doesnt mean that they will do that by completely disregarding the club and its values, ask the cancers how much profit they made when they were forced by a Director's vote to sell the club. They would only make a profit if the club was in a stable in a strong and stable condition in order to be sold on or possibly float a share of the club etc...

This is about building on a long term basis, we had results under the old regime but as soon as Rafa left, the club was a disaster and we are still recovering from it all.

Personally i just wish that every single league were forced to adopt the German model of 49% owned by one person and 51% owned by the fans, this in the long term would and is the most sustainable model yet there is no chance of that happening let alone that twat Platini criticising foreign ownership anymore seeing as a French club is finally in the limelight.

[AJ4Seven]

not wishing to pick on this post in general but your argument could have been used last season and probably was for not getting a high earner in as cover for Lucas and how did that work out?

At least two people lost their job because of that decision, & the issue was not not getting a high earner, it was replacing a player that didn't need to be shipped out(Adam for Aqua) rather than spending that money on cover for Lucas (but at least Heighway got some good press during Jays brief spell of good form last year) 

Your idea of getting rid of quality out of the squad for  a cheaper option is unless they replace like for like incredibly dangerous it fits with expecting Jay to do Lucas's job as well as him , or Morgan coming in for Suarez or Borini, he can do a job but will it be good enough right now!

Can we at least wait for the window to be shut before judging the squad?

[Gnurglan]

The clause in Kuyts was pre-FSG so can't blame them for it. Was yet another joke Purslow made. And Maxi wanted to go, and wouldn't you after last season where he should of been used a hell of a lot more? That and he a. doesn't speak English and b. his family aren't here/not happy here. Not many players at an age of 31, wanting to go back to his home land, in last year of their contract, go for much money at all.

As for Aquilani, if he has done so well then why did AC refuse to pay the piddly sum agreed for him. Or Juventus before them. Neither clearly felt he was worth much to be honest (probably due to wages, which again were pre-FSG).

Sometimes getting decent fees isn't possible, and it's a case of clearing out the crap so not having to pay big wages for the rest of their contract. If he stayed Aquilani would of cost something like £10m over the next 2 years then left for nothing anyway.

I understand what you're saying about Maxi and Aquilani. What I mean is we paint ourselves in the corner. Once there, we have few alternatives. But we actively put ourselves in that corner time and again. That's what we need to address and we don't.

Take Maxi, we treated him poorly last season. He should have been in the side on merit, now he's off. And players who are not in the side on merit will be gifted his place. We're not rewarding the right things. That's our choice. We do the wrong things, then we do nothing and all of a sudden we have replaced Maxi with Joe Cole.
Take Aquilani, we went for Adam and made sure AA left. Completely unnecessary. Then we converted Henderson to CM. So we spent 20M+ to push Aquilani out, without even playing him. Then we point to Aquilani and say he's the problem. He isn't. It's the way we run the club.

[Melbred]

I understand what you're saying about Maxi and Aquilani. What I mean is we paint ourselves in the corner. Once there, we have few alternatives. But we actively put ourselves in that corner time and again. That's what we need to address and we don't.

Take Maxi, we treated him poorly last season. He should have been in the side on merit, now he's off. And players who are not in the side on merit will be gifted his place. We're not rewarding the right things. That's our choice. We do the wrong things, then we do nothing and all of a sudden we have replaced Maxi with Joe Cole.
Take Aquilani, we went for Adam and made sure AA left. Completely unnecessary. Then we converted Henderson to CM. So we spent 20M+ to push Aquilani out, without even playing him. Then we point to Aquilani and say he's the problem. He isn't. It's the way we run the club.

Yes, but how is that FSG's fault? Surely it's the manager's decision in who they choose to utilise and how to utilise these players. Kenny and Comolli made the call that Aquilani wouldn't get a game because Gerrard was in his position and shipped him out, and chose to bring in Adam. It was Kenny who decided not to play Maxi too.

It's the same with Rogers this season, and he will live and die by his choices and actions.

[fowlermagic]

It is hard to get excited about the game these days as a lost on a Saturday aches for a few hours but way too much going on with the family & life to let it bother you too much. The highs are great the lows are pale compared to personal issues that bring you back to reality with a bang. Thats how I look at Liverpool right now, cant wait for the next game to kick off but its just a wee reprieve from the shyte reality TV we are inundated with these nights.

Concerns with the team revolved pretty much around

Owners - they are new to the business and are struggling to fill the gaps on/off the field with fellows that inspire us.

Manager/playing staff - A constant over the years and right now have the biggest ?? over their heads. Anyone is surely better than Hodgson (that was low) and if Brendan kicks off in a decent fashion he will get the patience to allow us to rebuild.

Stadium - Love to see a start to the renovation soon as we have the money / funding in place to get that ball rolling by 2013. Of course the economy has put everyones plans on hold but its time for a risk / reinovate as we are on a fresh start so no better time to change as we have to change to keep up.

Key right now is back the manager so the owners have to loosen their wallets and add three or four key players to the mix. Its getting funded from within by sales / releases & additional money windfalls from sponsors. Present concerns on the playing staff can be reduced in the next month so sort that out and we can start rolling forward

[Juan Loco]

That interrview he did when he said we were a stepping stone

Where's that? Can only think you mean the post someone with no posts put up on a Swansea forum that turned out to be fake.

"This club is a destination", to paraphrase.

[Eeyore]

Where's that? Can only think you mean the post someone with no posts put up on a Swansea forum that turned out to be fake.

"This club is a destination", to paraphrase.

To be fair he hasn't exactly got a great track record for loyalty walking on Watford and Swansea in contentious circumstances.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I honestly think people should relax. We aren't going to win anything this season. We aren't going to challenge for anything this season. We aren't going to finish fourth. Once you accept that it's a bedding in season that'll probably have more bad than good, you can settle back and just enjoy the games without worrying too much.

People are going to blow a gaskett if they think we're going to go on some marvellous run ahead of the pack.

[brezipool]

Have to keep positive mates!

that's all we can, stay positive and get behind the team, no matter who is wearing that red shirt !

PS. I still think Rafa was amazing, it was all H+G fault, we are slowly building ourselves back up, I can see quality youth being a major factor in the coming years.

[The Flying Pig]

This. I appreciate that there is some caution in parts but as you can tell from what the FSG have done, they are trying to implement a structure from the top , under the old regime we had a brilliant footballing structure purely down to Rafa but the rest was an absolute shambles. These guys obviously want a uniform structure and philosphy from the bottom up in order to get that identity back which we somewhat have lost due to having too many different managers in the past few years and of course the cancers.

They are looking to make a profit no one denies that, who wouldn't? But that doesnt mean that they will do that by completely disregarding the club and its values, ask the cancers how much profit they made when they were forced by a Director's vote to sell the club. They would only make a profit if the club was in a stable in a strong and stable condition in order to be sold on or possibly float a share of the club etc...

This is about building on a long term basis, we had results under the old regime but as soon as Rafa left, the club was a disaster and we are still recovering from it all.

Personally i just wish that every single league were forced to adopt the German model of 49% owned by one person and 51% owned by the fans, this in the long term would and is the most sustainable model yet there is no chance of that happening let alone that twat Platini criticising foreign ownership anymore seeing as a French club is finally in the limelight.

Yes,the "structure" is called Ian Ayre.

[Juan Loco]

To be fair he hasn't exactly got a great track record for loyalty walking on Watford and Swansea in contentious circumstances.

Kinda like saying Rafa hasn't got a great track record for loyalty for walking out on Tenerife. He didn't exactly push for the Liverpool job. Swansea were more upset with the club than they were with Rodgers. He also agreed to the huge clause in his contract at Swansea so they'd get compensation if he went.

Don't see what he's done that's different from anyone else showing a bit of ambition.

[Gnurglan]

Yes, but how is that FSG's fault? Sure it's the manager's decision in who they choose to utilise and how to utilise these players. Kenny and Comolli made the call that Aquilani wouldn't get a game because Gerrard was in his position and shipped him out, and chose the bring in Adam. It was Kenny who decided not to play Maxi too.

It's the same with Rogers this season, and he will live and die by his actions.

It's not FSG's fault. At all. It's very much Kenny (and Comolli) who made the calls. I don't think we can blame FSG for that.

I have my doubts about FSG (for example club targets, selection process of manager, choice of manager). But I'm even more concerned with how this club generally make decisions and what we value. Take a step back and I see a club that make a bit of noise, but there's no real desire to actually get the job done. What, in the way we operate, indicate that our intention is to become a side that can challenge for the title and the CL? We don't appear to have that hunger and that's at all levels.

The way I see it, Rodgers' most difficult task is not to coach the team. His most difficult task is to make the necessary decisions. Correction: to be allowed to make those decisions. Why have we hired him? Is it to finish top four (which was all that counted for Kenny)? Or will we put that on hold? Honestly, I don't think we know. IMO Rodgers' position is weak and it's obvious that this club needs a strong manager who has complete backing and is allowed to make some very tough decisions.

[CraigDS]

IMO Rodgers' position is weak and it's obvious that this club needs a strong manager who has complete backing and is allowed to make some very tough decisions.

Given it looks like he is being allowed to move Carroll on, for what will be an astonishing loss within 18 months (biggest in football history?) I would say that's evidence of a strong manager, who has complete backing, and making a very tough decision.

Now obviously there are others that need to be made too, however I'm not sure doing all of them at once is going to help matters.

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

Sure, Rafa made mistakes too. He's not without fault. But I do have some sympathy for his mistakes. It was Alonso and Keane. We got good money for Alonso, we corrected Keane quickly. Aquilani was a mistake, of course. Johnson for Arbeloa was not a wise net spend of some 15M, but at least Johnson is a first pick. Dossena, I agree. Don't see a problem with Ngog. We earned money on him and he was a gamble who did what we could request. That's no longer the norm. Now the norm is to lose money while we go weaker.

It's when you get to Konchesky, Poulsen (vs Insua and Aquilani that we already had), Cole, Carra's new contract, or when you consider how we spent the Torres money and last summer's activities that we really lost it. I think Hodgson's short spell alone may have cost us 40-50M in contracts and fees and it was painfully obvious that all those things would make us worse off. Not even the intentions were good. It was more or less a plan to make us worse.

It's laughable mate, it says a how much you have to stretch to fit your desire that Rafa wasn't up to it. The list was: Keane, Riera, Ngog, Dossena, Cavalieri, Aquilani, Johnson, Soto.

Keane : 19     Sold: 16 (£12m fee will rise quickly to nearer £16m with further ambitious add-ons, linked to silverware he claims at Spurs, to see up to £19m change hands again. )
Riera: 8 Sold: 3.3
Ngog: 1.5 Sold: 4
Dossena: 7 Out: 4.7
Aquilani: 17.1 (we paid this much, didn't fulfill the rest)
-breakdown: £255,000 for each time LFC reach the Champions League from 2010/11 - 2014/15.
- £212,000 after Aquilani plays 35, 70, 105 and 140 games.
- £850,000 if LFC win the Premier or Champions League before 2014.
Soto: 2 Sold: Free
Cavalieri:3.5    Sold: 3
Johnson: 17.5

total loss: 10


Transfer fees from lfchistory.net

Ngog (1.5), Soto (2) Cavalieri (3.5) - A fortune? Spirit crushingly disastrous? Haha. I'm sorry, but what the fuck are you on about. Keane, Aquilani sure, but then say Keane and Aquilani - why the need to tag on the squaddies to denigrate the man? Trying, trying, trying, stretching to justify your stance on him.


The only transfers more than 10 million were Keane, Johnson and Aquilani. Johnson is worth the money, Keane was poor even though we got back most of the money (poor in the opportunity cost sense), Aquilani's poor (and we will lose significantly on him). Everything else we either didn't lose too much, made a profit, or was a player who was integral for the title challenge (Riera). Even if you added up how much we lost on the players posted (10), and include Aquilani's future loss also, the potential loss we'll make on Carroll alone may go a long way towards matching that total, much less Adam or Downing. Rafa's were over two seasons, this is one season.

Rafa can be nicely forgotten and we can get on with the new boss if some of you didn't have to keep trying to justify yourselves for not backing a man you were supposed to back. 

Edit: edited to add on aquilani's potential loss to that 10 if you so wish.

 

[Hazell]

surfer, it was Brentie who was going overboard about Rafa's transfers not Gnuglan.

[CraigDS]

Not sure why Johnson is even included in that evaluation, as has been more than worth his fee.

[OLDIE]

Now obviously there are others that need to be made too, however I'm not sure doing all of them at once is going to help matters.

Perhaps making his mark in the right way though - not hiding from the big decisions. He cant control when City, Newcastle or any other club make an offer for one of the players so he has to decide sooner rather than later

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

surfer, it was Brentie who was going overboard about Rafa's transfers not Gnuglan.

I know mate, was backing gnurglan's points up, the phrases i later quoted was from the earlier post, not gnurglan.

[Hazell]

I know mate, was backing gnurglan's points up, the phrases i later quoted was from the earlier post, not gnurglan.

Ah right, apologies. Good post by the way, Rafa's transfer dealings were on the whole pretty good - his mistakes seem to get magnified for some reason, as if other managers don't make them - even post 2008. It's been a lot worse since he left and the summer so far doesn't seem to have altered that although there's obviously still a month to go.

[Eeyore]

Kinda like saying Rafa hasn't got a great track record for loyalty for walking out on Tenerife. He didn't exactly push for the Liverpool job. Swansea were more upset with the club than they were with Rodgers. He also agreed to the huge clause in his contract at Swansea so they'd get compensation if he went.

Don't see what he's done that's different from anyone else showing a bit of ambition.

He told both the Watford trust and the Swansea fans that he was happy and definitely wouldn't be leaving and then five minutes later went back on his word and buggered off.

[JackWard33]

Can people stop debating Rafa's transfer record

It was fucking exceptional

His ability to generate 'on pitch' value for the club was unreal
Its dumb debating the amount spent without taking into account the value generated.
In fact some of the most valuable players who have grown hugely in value are still in the squad

[Pistolero]

I fear this train could de-rail...

[keyo]

I think we need to separate the crappy deals done before FSG, the likes of Kuyts buy out clause, Aquilani, Cole's and Carra's wages, etc. as no matter what the club is going to have to take a hit on those. And it is going to hurt us in the short term but hopefully within the next year all those pre-FSG mistakes will be sorted out.

Then we have the big mess from last summer, namely two which are Carroll and Downing (due to initial fee, age, or both). With the jury still out on Henderson (who you'd hope would still have a decent sell on fee and people wanting him). The others are lower cost (namely Adam) so we should be OK moving on should the need be there.

The big test will be FSG allowing Rodgers to make the call to get rid of the players he wants to get rid of, even if it means a hefty loss, and still providing funds for him to purchase replacements. Obviously replacing Carroll won't be Rodger's getting another £25-35m to spend, but he shouldn't need that to improve upon Carroll (otherwise you don't get rid). We won't really have a real idea on what FSG have allowed until the end of the transfer window.

whilst they inherited "issues" you have identified as not of their doing, they are not unique in becoming owners of a "business" and having to deal with problems of previous owners making....they will be judged on what they do about it.....aquilani is a player who was signed by benitez, loaned out at the end of his first season, and then again last season when fsg were in charge.....it is reasonable to determine how they use the resources at their disposal, and that includes the players on the books.....and it looks to me that the way aquilani has been handled by fsg is no different to the previous owners....all the decisions they have made are what they are judged upon, and whilst noone expects them to make a profit on aquilani, i think we can assess that the job done appears not to be a good one

as for making hefty losses on players, we should be looking to get the very best deal when selling players and replacing them...and that means not taking massive losses unless it is absolutely necessary (i.e. a player HAS to be sold, and the price we can get is absolutely the best we can get)

ultimately fsg will be judged on where we are relative to when they bought us....and as much as "we are debt free" is a mantra everyone likes to shout out, doesn't appear to mean that there is a whole heap of investment going on either.....we are debt free because they got the club for the price of the debt, no more no less, and we have yet to see any change in the prospects of the club brought about by the owners.....early days?  maybe, but then as was pointed out by john henry when talking about dalglish, our league position is unacceptable, it is not were a club like lfc strives to be.....and they have had longer than dalglish so far

[Moldyman]

Agger, Skrtel, Pepe, Jonjo and Lucas. People aren't even taking into account the profit the club would make from these, all Rafa signings. The biggest myth in our modern history is that Rafa was shite in the transfer market.

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

Looking at the op and in response to that: think there are two elements. One - falling out of love with the club in an emotional sense. Frankly, that's something only you can sort out, we all know the points of dispute, no need to repeat them. Two - In terms of transfer / squad building. On this, the only area that worries me is the speculation about our centre backs - Agger / Skrtel. The speculation is not unexpected, looking at the decline of the club, the quality of those players it's expected. The onus is on us to pay them their rightful due, manage them in terms of getting them to buy into the new manager's ideas, and to keep them here. The rest - Aquilani, Carroll out for Allen / borini - if that happens - I'm fine with it. Happy that the manager is backed to shape the squad as he sees fit, even at the expense of big money signings. That should be a good sign, that the manager is getting the backing from the owners, rather than something to fret over imo. Carroll, at most, can do a job in Rodgers's system, not fit in perfectly.

One aspect that could be significantly improved is the setup backing up Rodgers in the boardroom - Ayre alone, as it seems, playing a major role is not ideal for Rodgers. As has been mentioned before, you need a manager who's backed up by the guy at the top, someone like Henry, empowered properly. Ayre is an employee (one I don't trust but that's a personal thing), he'll also be looking out for himself. Something he's probably good at seeing he's lasted through so many boardroom changes. You can work with a guy like that above you, you cannot trust him. For the manager to have a better environment, he needs a relationship of trust with the man at the very top. That's one of the problems having an owner that has wide interests, he's unlikely to provide that kind of backing.

[scouse neapolitan]

Constructive discussion is important..Indeed, we can imagine that some of our coaching staff/management actually read through the more illuminating comments....Other, shall we say, less articulate comments , do us no favours at all....they're just fucking embarassing....I don't think anyone is in any doubt that Brendan Rodgers wants to change our style of play, and he's also being forced to do so on a bit of a budget........He's juggling the funds and the fella obviously needs to be completely free to do so without his every move being dissected by the internet experts.
That said, my only concern,( and once again, he's the one who knows best) is that some of the people who many of us believe have got the star quality to perform are either being left to one side or are likely to be sold.(Aquilani)............It worries me that Suso, Sterling and Pacheco may not be given the amount of playing time thaat they deserve....If you're good enough, you're old enough.....A corny clichè maybe, but if it was good enough for Owen, Giggs, Totti etc.....
Once again, the new boss has his own vision and he needs to be given 150% support by us lot...He obviously has his reasons, even if many of us find them a bit puzzling

[DonkeyWan]

The £1million release cluse was added to Dirk's contract when he extended it in April 2011,FSG took over in October 2010.

Arguably though they were aiming for CL (having set 4th as a priority) and Kuyt was still a key player for the team. New economic realities have meant re-appraising wages and players.

Referring back to the OP, there is a lot to be worried about, but the most of the decisions and occurrences can be explained by the fact that what effectively FSG are doing are realigning the squad and club with its new, actual status, a mid-table team unable to compete with the big boys anymore. That might be galling for the fans to accept, but it is the truth. The fact of the matter is Liverpool is in a very bad place. Chelsea and City are financial dopers, United has established itself as the richest and most powerful club in the UK, and arguably is up there with Real Madrid, Bayern and Barca in terms of prestige and attractiveness, Arsenal has an annual revenue that is 50% higher than Liverpool's and is in a  rich catchment area.

 Meanwhile Liverpool has an aging stadium, a comparatively poor catchment area, a comparatively small city to draw on with another PL rival in close proximity and is no longer at the top table in the PL. No Cl and having to qualify for the Europa means Liverpool are now in the second tier and the wages and players must reflect that.The only reason its still perceived as a big club is because of past glories and they diminish year on year.

Its not all bad news of course. Spurs have shown what can be done with patience and good leadership and how quickly support for a previously big club can be re-established from a dormant state. Our main city rivals are in a far worse position, barely surviving year to year and with no discernible long term plan beyond getting in a sugar daddy. Should they fall away they will struggle to get back even more so than Liverpool.

What is required is sensible player purchases (which in fairness seems to be occurring this year more than the last two when a sense of panic seemed to drive club transfers and value was not sought) and the development of the stadium must occur (which is my greatest fear as nothing seems to be happening on that front, despite the promises.

As to when the rot started, I would date it back to 2009, when the club over-achieved and the owners decided they could now start selling every decent player and still finish in the CL. Then came Hodgson (a total disaster) but to be honest, despite overseeing the sales of key players (Mascherano and Alonso) it was in effect Dalglish and Comolli who have unfortunately been the most wasteful, spending huge swathes of money on not very good players - Henderson, Downing and Adam don't represent good value and of course Carroll is the great white elephant rather than the great white hope.

This year, in preparation for FFP they have taken a scythe to the wages and the squad. Even though I wanted Aquilani to stay, his departure is no surprise, considering his wages. Ditto maxi and Kuyt. Carragher, Gerrard and Cole will all be addressed in the next 12 months I believe and the squad will be shrunk to more sustainable standards. If we can keep onto Suarez and Agger for another 18 months and offload the detritus, make some move on the stadium and still finish competitively in the league I think the club will truly be in a better place. Lot of ifs though.

[vinothmct]

I'm genuinely concerned for next season Aurelio, Kuyt, Maxi, Aquilani, Bellamy, Carroll, all look to have gone or going. We have a chelsea reserve striker . Suarez in Forward line . A couple of loss early With inexperience we might well find out in relegation battle . Genuinely worried . We need to find quality replacements .

[Melbred]

I'm genuinely concerned for next season Aurelio, Kuyt, Maxi, Aquilani, Bellamy, Carroll, all look to have gone or going. We have a chelsea reserve striker . Suarez in Forward line . A couple of loss early With inexperience we might well find out in relegation battle . Genuinely worried . We need to find quality replacements .

Love how you label our own player a "Chelsea reserve". Why not Roma player who had a more than decent goal return in a good league, or say he's been capped at National level?

[CraigDS]

whilst they inherited "issues" you have identified as not of their doing, they are not unique in becoming owners of a "business" and having to deal with problems of previous owners making....they will be judged on what they do about it.....aquilani is a player who was signed by benitez, loaned out at the end of his first season, and then again last season when fsg were in charge.....it is reasonable to determine how they use the resources at their disposal, and that includes the players on the books.....and it looks to me that the way aquilani has been handled by fsg is no different to the previous owners....all the decisions they have made are what they are judged upon, and whilst noone expects them to make a profit on aquilani, i think we can assess that the job done appears not to be a good one

Surely the decision to loan him out comes down to the manager in charge, not the owners?

as for making hefty losses on players, we should be looking to get the very best deal when selling players and replacing them...and that means not taking massive losses unless it is absolutely necessary (i.e. a player HAS to be sold, and the price we can get is absolutely the best we can get)

ultimately fsg will be judged on where we are relative to when they bought us....and as much as "we are debt free" is a mantra everyone likes to shout out, doesn't appear to mean that there is a whole heap of investment going on either.....we are debt free because they got the club for the price of the debt, no more no less, and we have yet to see any change in the prospects of the club brought about by the owners.....early days?  maybe, but then as was pointed out by john henry when talking about dalglish, our league position is unacceptable, it is not were a club like lfc strives to be.....and they have had longer than dalglish so far

Agreed to the first point, I did go on to clarify they can and should be judged on how they clear up the mess left for them. However given the state of some of the mess (silly wages and/or fee), and the desire by the manager to not keep the player it is unlikely anything but making a loss on them will happen.

Also totally agree with the second point, for being judged on where we are with regards to when they bought us. The cost of the debt wasn't a small figure remember, it was approx £250-300m (possibly more?) so it's no good devaluing this benefit because that's all they got us for. Give that mess it is early days, not too early for us to of liked to see some improvement especially given amounts spent - but then this comes down to the manager as all FSG can do is provide him with the cash and hope he comes good with it.

[Matt8Pie]

I honestly think people should relax. We aren't going to win anything this season. We aren't going to challenge for anything this season. We aren't going to finish fourth. Once you accept that it's a bedding in season that'll probably have more bad than good, you can settle back and just enjoy the games without worrying too much.

People are going to blow a gaskett if they think we're going to go on some marvellous run ahead of the pack.

From my point of view, Andy, we shouldn't be having another bedding in period. We've had a "transition" season every season for the past 3. We've shot ourselves in the foot so many times recently and people are all too happy to hide behind the "bedding in" or "transition" excuse instead of addressing our real problems.

Nothing has really impressed me about the new owners, they look like all they want is to get as much money as possible while outlaying as little as possible without much care for where the team ends up. You can say to me that "well they sacked Kenny because he finished eighth" but I truly believe he was never their idea of manager. For months the Kop shouted his name and the owners, new to the club, didn't dare go against fans wishes because they wouldn't want to face the wrath of the supporters so soon into their ownership. It didn't work out, they gave it a shot and now they're putting their plans into action.

The thing is, are their plans for the good of the club or for the good of their wallet? So far, what evidence have we got to suggest they've got the best interests of the club in mind? That's the scary thing. We've sold our star player, a fan favourite around the world, we sold a key member to the team in 2010/2011 both to one of our rivals and replaced them with cheaper options to the detriment of our club's position in the league (last minute transfer requests huh? Yeah, okay sure). They've not put any of their own money into the club but instead have ramped up the marketing efforts to increase revenue, see Warrior and Chevrolet as recent examples, banged the drum hard on the website for memberships, a documentary, competitions and all sorts of other media to get people involved with "the brand" and to get them spending money. I don't know how people interpret this but it is fairly obvious to me what it all suggests and I can't say for one minute it's a positive thing for the team.

Next, and I really hope I'm fucking wrong because this is next level paranoia but they've identified Brendan Rodgers as their man who arguably had his team playing the best kind of football in the league last season that got praise everywhere. Watching us last season was so frustrating, it left the fans frustrated, players frustrated and I imagine the owners frustrated. Which Liverpool were gonna turn up the next weekend? There was lots of moaning and drop of interest towards the tail end of the season except for the FA Cup and by bringing in a manager who apparently plays the best football in the league we'd get rid of those problems. It's all about "the football we will play will be exciting for the fans" - I read that as people will think it is well worth their money to come win, lose or draw because they will be entertained. If they are entertained, they will come back and pay more money. Is this the reason they've gone for Brendan Rodgers? Brentie said it yesterday, we had 3 world class managers interested in taking the job who required no compensation because they were all available, all with top honours in the game but we've settled for someone who had one good season in the Premiership who had his team playing a style that was adopted 5 years ago before he even set foot in Swansea and who boasts his only honour as a Championship Playoff win? How can alarm bells not be ringing in people's heads? They've already got a ready made excuse for any failings next season like Andy said. "It's a bedding in period". This season, we won't be playing like Swansea were last season. Fact. It takes time to mould a whole team into playing as one unit. The signs are there, but it won't happen this season.

Capello, Rafa, Van Gaal...or Brendan Rodgers? Easy choice for me and I'm sorry to say that Brendan Rodgers would be fourth choice out of the lot. I'll probably get shit for that but it's the stone cold truth. I'll support him as our manager but I never wanted him to be our manager.

They've taken a big risk in appointing him but again, I think we've got to ask why he's been appointed over those world class managers? Apparently he's been allowed full control which I find bullshit because that was apparently the reason they didn't want Rafa who wanted the job, who was wanted by the fans and who was wanted by the players. I can't imagine Brendan Rodgers going into John Henry's office and saying "right, this Aquilani lad is taking too much resources and doesn't fit into my plans, can we have £5m to fuck him off?" whilst we're clearly on a sell to buy policy. The owners have control, they always have and they always will. Player sales and incoming transfers will be sanctioned by them. They will tell Brendan Rodgers what they want for the club and if they want an increasing-in-popularity American in their team to help increase the brand stateside, then they will tell him. Clint Dempsey has been said to be overtaking Landon Donovan as America's most popular footballer. Gee, I wonder why we've been linked with him. People are hiding behind "no because BR has full control". Okay. So he has full control because that's what was said, right? Or it's been said he has full control in public so if things go tits up, there's an escape route for the owners to say "well, we gave him full control and it didn't work out" so they've got their reputations intact.

I hope I'm wrong, I really, really do but football is a fucked up, snakey business and just because people say something in the papers, doesn't mean it's true.

Why are we not after star names? Why are our rivals snapping up the better players? Why did a man Brendan Rodgers work closely with last season who he had a good relationship with who was meant to want to work for him snub us and go to Spurs? "Brendan clearly didn't rate him enough to offer him the wages he wanted". Yeah, okay then. The man he chased for weeks to get him to join him at a his new club didn't sign because Rodgers got cold feet at the last minute. No one would dare snub the mighty Liverpool. It was all down to Brendan.



Disclaimer - my fucked up paranoid opinion.

[CraigDS]

From my point of view, Andy, we shouldn't be having another bedding in period. We've had a "transition" season every season for the past 3. We've shot ourselves in the foot so many times recently and people are all too happy to hide behind the "bedding in" or "transition" excuse instead of addressing our real problems.

Nothing has really impressed me about the new owners, they look like all they want is to get as much money as possible while outlaying as little as possible without much care for where the team ends up. You can say to me that "well they sacked Kenny because he finished eighth" but I truly believe he was never their idea of manager. For months the Kop shouted his name and the owners, new to the club, didn't dare go against fans wishes because they wouldn't want to face the wrath of the supporters so soon into their ownership. It didn't work out, they gave it a shot and now they're putting their plans into action.

The thing is, are their plans for the good of the club or for the good of their wallet? So far, what evidence have we got to suggest they've got the best interests of the club in mind? That's the scary thing. We've sold our star player, a fan favourite around the world, we sold a key member to the team in 2010/2011 both to one of our rivals and replaced them with cheaper options to the detriment of our club's position in the league (last minute transfer requests huh? Yeah, okay sure). They've not put any of their own money into the club but instead have ramped up the marketing efforts to increase revenue, see Warrior and Chevrolet as recent examples, banged the drum hard on the website for memberships, a documentary, competitions and all sorts of other media to get people involved with "the brand" and to get them spending money. I don't know how people interpret this but it is fairly obvious to me what it all suggests and I can't say for one minute it's a positive thing for the team.

Why get rid of Kenny then, costing them a fair bit of money? And getting in a manager who cost them a fair bit more to get out of his contract? If they just wanted to milk the club then surely keeping a happy fanbase (not sacking Kenny) and not rackig up big costs in doing so would be the top of the list surely?

And as for the deals and not putting money in to the club (they have put £30m in up to July 11, not sure if anymore in last year as accounts aren't out yet), they came out from day one and said the club would run on it's own finances. Which, although a slower climb to the top, is both possible and surely preferred given the debt situation we found ourselves in with the old owners?

[Redeo]

Take Maxi, we treated him poorly last season. He should have been in the side on merit, now he's off. And players who are not in the side on merit will be gifted his place. We're not rewarding the right things. That's our choice. We do the wrong things, then we do nothing and all of a sudden we have replaced Maxi with Joe Cole.
Take Aquilani, we went for Adam and made sure AA left. Completely unnecessary. Then we converted Henderson to CM. So we spent 20M+ to push Aquilani out, without even playing him. Then we point to Aquilani and say he's the problem. He isn't. It's the way we run the club.

Is it me or aren't all of these purely managerial decisions? Hard to fault FSG for Hodgson's and Dalglish's choices. No?

[JackWard33]

Also totally agree with the second point, for being judged on where we are with regards to when they bought us. The cost of the debt wasn't a small figure remember, it was approx £250-300m (possibly more?) so it's no good devaluing this benefit because that's all they got us for. Give that mess it is early days, not too early for us to of liked to see some improvement especially given amounts spent - but then this comes down to the manager as all FSG can do is provide him with the cash and hope he comes good with it.

It was less and it effectively became the cost of purchasing the club - less than we were worth; they got a bargain

[Matt8Pie]

Why get rid of Kenny then, costing them a fair bit of money? And getting in a manager who cost them a fair bit more to get out of his contract? If they just wanted to milk the club then surely keeping a happy fanbase (not sacking Kenny) and not rackig up big costs in doing so would be the top of the list surely?

And as for the deals and not putting money in to the club (they have put £30m in up to July 11, not sure if anymore in last year as accounts aren't out yet), they came out from day one and said the club would run on it's own finances. Which, although a slower climb to the top, is both possible and surely preferred given the debt situation we found ourselves in with the old owners?

Kenny getting sacked cost them nothing, he took nothing, but I understand your point. There were people who didn't want Kenny sacked but if you went on to Twitter or Facebook or even on here, people were calling for Kenny to be sacked. There were Facebook groups and Twitter trends and the media had the knives out. It was unpopular with a lot of people, but there were also a lot of people who were happy to see him go.

FSG didn't put any money into the transfers as far as I'm aware, but I'm happy to be corrected.

The thing that bugs me though is if you ask yourself, what kind of man is John Henry? He completely ignored Kenny at the FA Cup final after shaking everyone else's hands. The man who had fought tooth and nail for the club last season and for many years before who looked emotionally and physically drained from the media hunt against him, and he wasn't even shown the respect of getting a handshake after giving his all.

[Saul Goodman]

Why get rid of Kenny then, costing them a fair bit of money? And getting in a manager who cost them a fair bit more to get out of his contract? If they just wanted to milk the club then surely keeping a happy fanbase (not sacking Kenny) and not rackig up big costs in doing so would be the top of the list surely?

Honestly come on now? You think Kenny was going to stand by and let them drain the club.

btw not saying that's what is going to happen but the need to get rid of Kenny in the tale of gloom that Matt8Pie paints is pretty obvious.

[CraigDS]

It was less and it effectively became the cost of purchasing the club - less than we were worth; they got a bargain

If you can show me the figures of this as can't find them. Can find swiss rambles recent post about us being in approx £430m debt, but about £140 of this was to the owners directly and don't think they got all/any of this back.

Although not sure how you can say they got us for less than we were worth, whats this based on?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Love how you label our own player a "Chelsea reserve". Why not Roma player who had a more than decent goal return in a good league, or say he's been capped at National level?

Or a player that was bought and immediately loaned out and then bought by Roma and immediately sold at the first chance they got?

See you can spin this anyway you like

I get that you're ridiculously optomistic and you think anyone with even the slightest concern is an idiot, but you don't have to prove it in every single post to every single poster.