Topic: The Title Race 2023/24- Jurgen's Last Dance

[So… Howard Philips]

Too many crucial injuries at the wrong times.

The kids and inexperienced got by on verve and energy and some naivete as long as they could until they ran out of gas.

The veterans returning from injuries were too rusty and took too long to get back into form.

In that interval is where we lost it.

Beating Arsenal in the FA cup, closely followed by the Klopp announcement lead to the unrealistic prospect of the fabled Quadruple as well as all the good points made above.

[killer-heels]

We didnt lose the league. We did very well to get to where we did but it was a step too far.

[CHOPPER]

We didnt lose the league. We did very well to get to where we did but it was a step too far.

We did lose the league, make no bones about that. The players and the whole squad will tell you that.

Our problem was how got to where we got, before we started let it slip - this was the problem.
Chasing games for the best part of a season became too much for us, the stat we were lorded about, became our own downfall in many respects.

[skipper757]

Too many crucial injuries at the wrong times.

The kids and inexperienced got by on verve and energy and some naivete as long as they could until they ran out of gas.

The veterans returning from injuries were too rusty and took too long to get back into form.

In that interval is where we lost it. 

That covers it well.  We relied a lot on comebacks and a strong mentality.  It was the stuff of champions (Newcastle away, Fulham home, Palace away, Forest away, etc).  But at the same time, to be the top side, we needed to round into form at the right time.  The hope was that for a part of the season, we weren't playing our best but we were winning.  Then, when we get our injured players/out of form players into form, we'll go on a strong run to end the season.  But that didn't happen. 

Instead of going from not playing at our best and winning to playing our best and winning, we went from not playing at our best and winning to not playing at our best and losing/drawing.

It hurts because while the title was a long shot, we had it in our hands with 8 games remaining.  We were starting to get players back, and we put out strong sides against United and Palace but fluffed our lines.  A forward going on a scoring binge or CBs playing blinders (the way Mac did for a few weeks), and that might've been all it took.  Just one example that comes to mind is Taiwo Awoniyi, who despite scoring just 4 goals in the first 23 games last year for Forest, scored 7 in 4 to end the season, taking Forest from relegation places to safety with 1 game left.  None of our players needed to sustain top form for an entire season, but if someone like Darwin or Mo hitting peak scoring form had happened, and they went on a big run (8 goals in 8 or something), that might've been enough.

Our performances in the league against Arsenal and City (3 draws, 1 defeat) left a lot to be desired also.  Had chances to put Arsenal and City away at home but failed to do so and VVD/Alisson got mixed up for an almighty blunder at the Emirates.  Played a weak United side 3 times and didn't win any of them.

Despite all the injuries and officiating woes, we all dreamed that we could get into form and do enough to get over the line.

But in the end, that magic never appeared.  Winning all 8 games was always going to be difficult anyway, but it all fell apart so quickly.

[Gifted Right Foot]

What i'll never understand is the slow starts in nearly every game we play.  It feels like its been happening for a couple seasons now.  I saw a stat before saying we'd be 19th in the league according to results at the 15th minute mark in games.  I know it's a 90+ minute game and that means nothing in the long run but it's just to highlight our slow starts.  We were only leading in 2 games at the 15th minute (Arsenal were leading in 9 games and City in 8 ).  The opponent has scored first in 16 of our league games this season.  It just wasn't sustainable.

[spider-neil]

We didnt lose the league. We did very well to get to where we did but it was a step too far.

We lost the league. When you have the league in your own hands with 7 games to play you've lost the league.

[spider-neil]

We have to get to the bottom of our injuries. Three seasons in the last five with injury lists as long as your arm. With that kind of record, you can no longer put that down to bad luck.

[jillcwhomever]

We have to get to the bottom of our injuries. Three seasons in the last five with injury lists as long as your arm. With that kind of record, you can no longer put that down to bad luck.

Two seasons we were fighting for four competitions and that is a huge challenge on so many levels. It cannot be a coincidence that our worst injury seasons were in those times, there are too many games, and too small a turnaround.

[killer-heels]

We did lose the league, make no bones about that. The players and the whole squad will tell you that.

Our problem was how got to where we got, before we started let it slip - this was the problem.
Chasing games for the best part of a season became too much for us, the stat we were lorded about, became our own downfall in many respects.

But thats exactly it. We have been chasing games since the start of the season (first home game against Bournemouth, down 1-0 after a few minutes). By the Luton and Sheffield United games you could see that we were hanging on quite a bit in this title race.

Ultimately we are the third best side in this league and we are finishing where we should.

[spider-neil]

But thats exactly it. We have been chasing games since the start of the season (first home game against Bournemouth, down 1-0 after a few minutes). By the Luton and Sheffield United games you could see that we were hanging on quite a bit in this title race.

Ultimately we are the third best side in this league and we are finishing where we should.

Regardless. we had the league in our own hands with 7 games to play with 7 winnable games.

[spider-neil]

This title challenge was unexpected. It's hard to tell how next season will go as it will very much be a transition season with a brand new manager.

[Fromola]

I know it's all a bit redundant now, the league is done with, but where would you say it was lost? United fans will say they're responsible, as will Palace fans and perhaps most annoyingly, Everton fans. Personally I think the title was already a tall order before the derby even kicked off. Try telling that to Evertonians though.

Assuming Arsenal beat Everton, it wouldn't have mattered if we beat Everton/West Ham/Spurs/Villa and Wolves 10-0. We wouldn't have caught Arsenal and/or City

It was realistically over after Palace. United game lost us any margin for error which we were always likely to need.

Winning out after Palace would have took it to the last day but you're sat in the ground waiting to see if Everton do you a favour at Arsenal and that City drop points somewhere which in one case or the other is a waste of everyone's time.

[ScubaSteve]

This title challenge was unexpected. It's hard to tell how next season will go as it will very much be a transition season with a brand new manager.

I’m not sure why people say the title challenge was unexpected. As soon as we replaced our midfield, I was more optimistic about our chances. They’ve underachieved

[meady1981]

Regardless. we had the league in our own hands with 7 games to play with 7 winnable games.

From my uneducated POV, there was nothing in our previous 7 games to say we could be even close to winning the next 7. I think we did exceptionally well to be where we were but it was by the skin of our teeth. And the other two were purring along nicely. I don’t think we bottled it, because I’m not devastated. I would be if we had of. I wasnt shocked by the Palace defeat, it had been coming.

[darragh85]

I think the pressure got to us. Players froze.

We have a few inexperienced players in the team. Hopefully this will stand to them next season.

[KC7]

What i'll never understand is the slow starts in nearly every game we play.  It feels like its been happening for a couple seasons now.  I saw a stat before saying we'd be 19th in the league according to results at the 15th minute mark in games.  I know it's a 90+ minute game and that means nothing in the long run but it's just to highlight our slow starts.  We were only leading in 2 games at the 15th minute (Arsenal were leading in 9 games and City in 8 ).  The opponent has scored first in 16 of our league games this season.  It just wasn't sustainable.

Lack of athleticism in midfield. When teams come at us, and they have done so early alot over the last two seasons, we cannot cope.

The Atalanta coach clearly spotted this during his analysis as they were breathing down our necks from kick off. Only a miracle save from Kelleher prevented them from going ahead earlier than they did.

Neil from TAW touched on this issue prior to the Everton game, and spoke of his hope that Endo wouldn't start. While teams have targeted him, the issue is we also don't have anyone else in there. Mac eventually did start vs Everton in the 6, but the same issue applied, that deep midfield area lacks running power. It's why Jurgen said the midfield have to "stay close together" so as not isolate the slow 6, the antithesis of high energy ("heavy metal football"). A flaky midfield will get exploited by teams who come at us.

The Newcastle away game we were pinned inside our own half from the get go. Gakpo wasn't pressing from the front, allowing the Newcastle defenders to take the ball right up to and past half way, while Endo was losing people running off him. Barring the entire 22-23 season where we had no legs in midfield after the overnight collapse of Fabinho with Hendo also cooked, it was the most passive we have looked under Klopp. We then brought on Nunez and Elliott for Gakpo and Endo, and the energy ramped up and we turned it around late on. Less than 72 hours after Atalanta done us 3-0, Endo started again vs Crystal Palace, a team who had targeted him at their ground in another game where we were overrun and looked like losing until a soft red card with 15 to go, and they were all over us in that first half. When Jurgen made the change at half time, Dom on for Endo, the energy ramped up and we tried to recover it, but it was one rescue act too many.

Harvey can also struggle alot in terms of phsyicality when he starts. He is a brilliant player, but his lack of physicality (size and athleticism) can be an issue when he starts as everyone has a full tank, so he doesnt have any advantage a player of his size needs to overcome the athleticism deficieny, whereas when he comes in he is fresh and has more in the tank than opponents who have already ran around for an hour. Primarily why he looks a different player from the bench.

The lack of athleticism and intensity in midfield has been there for the last two seasons (upfront Gakpo at times hasn't helped either), and we have looked vulnerable in the vast majority of games because of it.

[KC7]

I’m not sure why people say the title challenge was unexpected. As soon as we replaced our midfield, I was more optimistic about our chances. They’ve underachieved

The midfield is flaky though, one that has to "stay close together" so as not to isolate the slow 6, and provides substandard defensive protection. It loses runners, leaves gaps, and makes it far too easy for the opposition to breach to then get through to the back four. We conceded six in two games vs an atrocious United. One looped ball over the top by Casemiro into oceans of space with no DM in sight, allowing a toothless United attack a free run at the backline from which they went ahead.

A midfield that has to protect a player, is by definition weak, and that will get targeted.

Arsenal allow the opposition the fewest touches in their box. They stop attacks at source, midfield, which we used to do when the midfield was at it.

We have only half built the midfield with all those 8s (and they needed a season to bed in), we need an elite 6 who has the athleticism to take on the defensive duties without needing 8s to protect him.

[Fromola]

Lack of athleticism in midfield. When teams come at us, and they have done so early alot over the last two seasons, we cannot cope.

The Atalanta coach clearly spotted this during his analysis as they were breathing down our necks from kick off. Only a miracle save from Kelleher prevented them from going ahead earlier than they did.

Neil from TAW touched on this issue prior to the Everton game, and spoke of his hope that Endo wouldn't start. While teams have targeted him, the issue is we also don't have anyone else in there. Mac eventually did start vs Everton in the 6, but the same issue applied, that deep midfield area lacks running power. It's why Jurgen said the midfield have to "stay close together" so as not isolate the slow 6, the antithesis of high energy ("heavy metal football"). A flaky midfield will get exploited by teams who come at us.

We all knew it going into the season. We bid a British record fee for Caicedo so Klopp and the staff knew it.

Endo was a solid squad purchase but it was negligent not to sign an athletic 6 in the summer. Ibiza Jorge spent months fucking about over Lavia which didn't help either. And we wouldn't have banked on Bajcetic being injured all season.

Would have helped to get someone in in Jan but that wasn't happened once Klopp announced he was going.

[-Willo-]

I know it's all a bit redundant now, the league is done with, but where would you say it was lost? United fans will say they're responsible, as will Palace fans and perhaps most annoyingly, Everton fans. Personally I think the title was already a tall order before the derby even kicked off. Try telling that to Evertonians though.

The FA Cup game with Man Utd. We were coasting and I think if we won that the momentum would have carried on, proof is in the literal form after it too.

[Fromola]

The FA Cup game with Man Utd. We were coasting and I think if we won that the momentum would have carried on, proof is in the literal form after it too.

I think all the games and our weaknesses were going to catch up with us at some point, particularly going all out on 4 fronts. You can't go behind, start sloppily, be easy to score against, or rely on last minute winners all season long. Although we were coasting in that game we could have been 2 or 3 down there after a shite first half an hour. We should have put the game to bed in the middle third of it, but you can't just switch off for the rest of the game. The way Arsenal ground out an ugly 1-0 win there yesterday, that's beyond us these days, they didn't really give United a sniff.

Arsenal away in the league as well. Didn't turn up first half. Get back in it and then throw it away. If we won that, Arsenal were out the race. That was the crucial game for me, although City would still have been a long shot.

[KC7]

From my uneducated POV, there was nothing in our previous 7 games to say we could be even close to winning the next 7. I think we did exceptionally well to be where we were but it was by the skin of our teeth. And the other two were purring along nicely. I don’t think we bottled it, because I’m not devastated. I would be if we had of. I wasnt shocked by the Palace defeat, it had been coming.

Definitely. We had been teetering on the brink all season. We bottled nothing. The pressure merely ramped up and the major flaws were exposed.

With a whole new midfield though, and one that is still unfinished in regard to the 6, it was highly unlikely we would go the whole way. We needed a season for it to bed in. Mac for instance, he really clicked into gear in January. Gravenberch has taken alot longer and he is beginning to show more. Dom showed alot from the get go but he looks knackered in having to do so much of the midfield's running. One more window, an athletic 6, no more dragging Mac back there to "do a job", and this midfield (thus team) was good to go.

[redk84]

Too many crucial injuries at the wrong times.

The kids and inexperienced got by on verve and energy and some naivete as long as they could until they ran out of gas.

The veterans returning from injuries were too rusty and took too long to get back into form.

In that interval is where we lost it.

Agree with this

[ChaChaMooMoo]

Luton away
United home
Crystal Palace home
Everton home

These 4 games messed our confidence big time.

I want to include Chelsea away as well. Probably because Chelsea were gash with so many signings. But the same could be argued for us as well.
But in my mind, we drew the first two and lost the last two. Thats 10 points right there.

[Nick110581]

Luton away
United home
Crystal Palace home
Everton home

These 4 games messed our confidence big time.

I want to include Chelsea away as well. Probably because Chelsea were gash with so many signings. But the same could be argued for us as well.
But in my mind, we drew the first two and lost the last two. Thats 10 points right there.

We beat Everton at home.

We also went on a great run after drawing with United.

[Suareznumber7]

Two seasons we were fighting for four competitions and that is a huge challenge on so many levels. It cannot be a coincidence that our worst injury seasons were in those times, there are too many games, and too small a turnaround.

Hate to say it but, with the number of games that you end up playing when you go far in the cups, we probably need to prioritize competitions going forward.  Otherwise we run the risk of falling short late in the season due to fatigue/injuries. 

[Suareznumber7]

Assuming Arsenal beat Everton, it wouldn't have mattered if we beat Everton/West Ham/Spurs/Villa and Wolves 10-0. We wouldn't have caught Arsenal and/or City

It was realistically over after Palace. United game lost us any margin for error which we were always likely to need.

Winning out after Palace would have took it to the last day but you're sat in the ground waiting to see if Everton do you a favour at Arsenal and that City drop points somewhere which in one case or the other is a waste of everyone's time.

It's still baffling to me how so many people were so sure that we were fine if we dropped points because there was no way that Arsenal/City were going to finish out the season without dropping any.  The recent history of this league says otherwise and it has been proven once again.  Maybe it'll change when Pep leaves City but right now, when you get to first in the table, every game is a must win. 

[PaulKS]

I know it's all a bit redundant now, the league is done with, but where would you say it was lost? United fans will say they're responsible, as will Palace fans and perhaps most annoyingly, Everton fans. Personally I think the title was already a tall order before the derby even kicked off. Try telling that to Evertonians though.

United away 100%

Palace was the final nail in the coffin

[spider-neil]

Luton away
United home
Crystal Palace home
Everton home

These 4 games messed our confidence big time.

I want to include Chelsea away as well. Probably because Chelsea were gash with so many signings. But the same could be argued for us as well.
But in my mind, we drew the first two and lost the last two. Thats 10 points right there.

You mean Everton away. We won the home game.

[So… Howard Philips]

You mean Everton away. We won the home game.

I think the writing was on the wall before Everton away.

I nearly mentioned the Bullens Wall but I think I got away with it.

[Kenny's Jacket]

If you said to me two months ago  I would wake up today not thinking about Football till mid-afternoon, I wouldnt be able to get my head  around it.

[ChaChaMooMoo]

You mean Everton away. We won the home game.

We beat Everton at home.

We also went on a great run after drawing with United.

Everton Away. Yes.

I would include both the home game and away United games here. When we faced them at home, we had the home ground advantage. And we managed a 0-0.
When we faced them at OT, they were in their worst form and we were in our best form. We should've seen another 7-0 routing on any normal day.

[jillcwhomever]

I’m not sure why people say the title challenge was unexpected. As soon as we replaced our midfield, I was more optimistic about our chances. They’ve underachieved

They have not underachieved, you have to be near perfect to be anywhere near a title challenge these days. I never expected to be challenging for the title this season, as you'd have to be extremely fortunate with injuries with the amount of games you have to play now.

Hate to say it but, with the number of games that you end up playing when you go far in the cups, we probably need to prioritize competitions going forward.  Otherwise we run the risk of falling short late in the season due to fatigue/injuries.

Now that we have a good standard of young players coming through, we should be prepared to use them more in the Cup competitions. Think how young the team was that won the Cup this season, it gives them a chance to experience playing football at a high level.

[Kenny's Jacket]

I didn't expect a title challenge however I didnt expect to finish below Arsenal either.

[mkingdon]

I'd say the Diaz offside at Spurs, the penalty not being given at the end of the City game and the basketball handball vs Arsenal were all pivotal.

I always thought we'd struggle to keep up with City for sure, but when you have those going against you as well, the chances were always going to be slim.

[A-Bomb]

I didn't expect a title challenge however I didnt expect to finish below Arsenal either.

I think Arsenal's team is more mature as a collective in their development going into this season. They've shown that in their performances across the season.

It was nice to dream we were in the title race and we were very much so up until the past few weeks. But this team needs a little more growth before I think we could confidently expect to be in the mix and real contenders.

[Realgman]

Dead right

I'd say the Diaz offside at Spurs, the penalty not being given at the end of the City game and the basketball handball vs Arsenal were all pivotal.

I always thought we'd struggle to keep up with City for sure, but when you have those going against you as well, the chances were always going to be slim.

[stjohns]

From my uneducated POV, there was nothing in our previous 7 games to say we could be even close to winning the next 7. I think we did exceptionally well to be where we were but it was by the skin of our teeth. And the other two were purring along nicely. I don’t think we bottled it, because I’m not devastated. I would be if we had of. I wasnt shocked by the Palace defeat, it had been coming.

I remember thinking a few weeks beforehand that we mustn't let Utd fuck our season up from where we'd got to. We did, against one of the worst Utd teams I've seen in 60 years watching football. Personally, I think we did overachieve considering the major personnel changes and all of the controversial stuff that went agains us but ended up with the main goal, Champions league football next season. I also think Jurgen"s announcement got people thinking of a dream ending which may have put unnecessary pressure on the players and been another negative factor on top of our almost cruel run of injuries (seemed like we lost half the first team squad in a couple of weeks at one point).

[Barneylfc∗]

I'd say the Diaz offside at Spurs, the penalty not being given at the end of the City game and the basketball handball vs Arsenal were all pivotal.

I always thought we'd struggle to keep up with City for sure, but when you have those going against you as well, the chances were always going to be slim.

It's been right from the off.

Opening game of the season we should've had a penalty after Jackson punched the ball out from a corner.

Against Brighton, they should've had a player sent off for a clear DOGSO. We'd have been 2-1 up against 10 men for the whole of the 2nd half.

No guarantee we'd have won any of the games of course, but we've been denied the possibility of at least 10/11 more points over Arsenal and Abu Dhabi due to refereeing/VAR decisions alone.

[swoopy]

It's been right from the off.

Opening game of the season we should've had a penalty after Jackson punched the ball out from a corner.

Against Brighton, they should've had a player sent off for a clear DOGSO. We'd have been 2-1 up against 10 men for the whole of the 2nd half.

No guarantee we'd have won any of the games of course, but we've been denied the possibility of at least 10/11 more points over Arsenal and Abu Dhabi due to refereeing/VAR decisions alone.

The penalty vs Chelsea was just astounding and set the tone from game 1. Clear handball with no mitigating circumstances just waved away.

[KC7]

It's still baffling to me how so many people were so sure that we were fine if we dropped points because there was no way that Arsenal/City were going to finish out the season without dropping any.  The recent history of this league says otherwise and it has been proven once again.  Maybe it'll change when Pep leaves City but right now, when you get to first in the table, every game is a must win.

Yep. A target sharpens the focus. Gives players something to aim for. And having a specific target drives players on.

For example, if you need to win a game by four clear goals, as we did vs Barca, that adds an extra bit of impetus to your play.

Same applies when the finish line is in sight, the calculations are clear and you have to win games.


Never like this presumptuous "we have seven cup finals". Sure I wasnt alone in thinking we have one cup final, and hopefully we win that so we then have another one and so on. We were nowhere near solid enough, midfield especially, where we are flaky defensively, to expect to go on a sustained run. Arsenal who cough up few chances with the opposition rarely getting in their box, they have the solidity to expect to go on a run, runs that we rightfully expected from us between 2018 and 2022 when we were at it.

With such a ropey midfield, and one that Klopp was clearly never happy with given the constant chopping and changing in there, something that didn't happen between 2018 and the 2022, we have probably exceeded our expectations with roughly 80 points and a Cup.

Posters can point to individual games, but the bigger picture is we have been solid/comfortable in maybe only 5 games all season. Crystal Palace for instance, they can consider themselves very unfortunate not to have done the double over us as they dominated for 75 minutes at their place before the soft sending off changed the game, and they then dominated again in the first half at Anfield when Jurgen started the lad who Atalanta had targeted less than 72 hours prior. Palace are a bottom half side but the athleticism they have in midfield really contrasted with our lack of it. Just a real bad match up for us.