Topic: Labour Thread * No Gaza *

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I post in many places because I like to hear all angles. Specially ones that I'm uncomfortable with. Echo chambers are a meaningless waste of life. And we know what Rawk is echoing. I'm trying to break that.

I post on redcafe and more recently bluemoon too. Their politics thread are way more open for discussions. And before you say it, yes sir I'll just fk off there then, then, then...then.

You might have more chance of 'breaking' the Echo chamber if you pose better arguments.

If you have hung around RAWK then quite a few of us don't agree on quite a few things.

Quite a few of us have and do change our minds - things aren't set in stone. For instance, I was once really pro-Corbyn then I'm pretty anti- now (Because of how thick, shite and generally all over the place he was, but mainly because he opened the door for Brexit and for the Tories to wipe out the Labour Party and all opposition to the shite they pull every week)

[Circa1892]

I post on redcafe and more recently bluemoon too. Their politics thread are way more open for discussions. And before you say it, yes sir I'll just fk off there then, then, then...then.

Why the fuck would you go around football websites to troll on politics threads? Absolutely weird.

[reddebs]

Has anybody got a clue what the fuck big c is on about?

I can't make head nor tail of any of it and I'm confused to fuck but I do know that his "G" is genocide.

[Statto Red]

Has anybody got a clue what the fuck big c is on about?

I can't make head nor tail of any of it and I'm confused to fuck but I do know that his "G" is genocide.

They need to be fucked off this site, seems all they do is go round & troll on these threads [& it seems on other forums], i'm putting them on ignore from now on.

Just reported them to the MODs.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Has anybody got a clue what the fuck big c is on about?

I can't make head nor tail of any of it and I'm confused to fuck but I do know that his "G" is genocide.

BigDump is a fucking weirdo. Apparently,  'G' = 'Gaza' (or so I have been told via PM). I have no idea why this could not be expressed plainly in the thread. Even after being informed about what what is 'G', it provides no illumination on BigDump's imagined points.

[jillcwhomever]

Has anybody got a clue what the fuck big c is on about?

I can't make head nor tail of any of it and I'm confused to fuck but I do know that his "G" is genocide.

Not one iota.

[Statto Red]

BigDump is a fucking weirdo. Apparently,  'G' = 'Gaza' (or so I have been told via PM). I have no idea why this could not be expressed plainly in the thread. Even after being informed about what what is 'G', it provides no illumination on BigDump's imagined points.

That that poster has admitted going onto other football forums to deliberately troll politics threads on those sites, sums them up, & should be fucked off from here permanently.

[Jiminy Cricket]

"Aint nuthin but a G Thang bab-y"



You're favourite type of music, JC 

You remembered!  

[oldfordie]

With respect, that's a very short-term and simplistic view to take.

Every private sector involvement in the NHS diverts a chunk of money away from the activity of actually providing clinical care, and instead into the pockets of the senior execs and shareholders of the private healthcare corporations. So either a) the overall NHS budget must be increased in order to provide the same volume of clinical care whilst a profit margin for private companies; or b) there's less money overall to actually spend on clinical care because a proportion goes to feeding corporate greed (question, then: who misses out on waiting list 'y' in order to hand cash to the private sector to treat someone 'in pain' on waiting list 'x'?)

Longer term, the greater the involvement of the private sector in provision of NHS services creates a normalcy and a dependence on the private sector (gradually run down the public sector portion, and bring in the private sector 'as an emergency measure to plug the gap' - which is what has been happening).

It's privatisation through stealth. The general public would never acquiesce to a wholesale privatisation of the NHS in one go. It would be political dynamite to attempt a similar privatisation to, say, the privatisation of the utilities. Instead, the plan seems to be a creeping privatisation whilst selling it as an advantage to the general public: "Oh, we're not privatising the NHS, we're just bringing some private companies on as an emergency measure to reduce waiting lists.... and you do want waiting lists reduced, don't you...?"

The evidence in this thread alone tells me that, as a tactic, it's working perfectly.

I mean, I can understand a person of right-of-centre politics supporting the creeping privatisation of the NHS, as they are ideologically wedded to corporate capitalism and the "private sector trumps lazy public sector every time" bullshit. It's saddening and frustrating, though, to see supposed Labour supporters waving the flag for increasing private sector corporate involvement in NHS services - and, what's more, dismissing those who oppose it through using Tory slogans like branding opposing people as ideologues or the like.

Of course it's a shorterm way of looking at it, that's the whole point. Streeting has to find a short term solution to a very serious problem he will inherit from the Torys, a massive NHS waiting list of people living in agony who have been waiting for years for NHS treatment,  he has to actually solve this problem, what is the alternative. how else will be able to help all those people who have been waiting years for a op under the Torys? 

I think the argument of paying more just to treat these patients resulting in less money to spend on the NHS elsewhere isn't the way to look at it, what about the patients who need very expensive drugs on the NHS. do we tell them am sorry but all this money just goes into the coffers of the big Pharmas, we prefer not to spend this money helping you and spend it elsewhere in the NHS. it's better value.


I understand the concerns of creeping privatisation but nobody is being conned into supporting creeping privatisation, the fact you think this is the thinking of the right shows it's more about ideology rather than for what it is, the Labour party finding a short term solution that actually helps people.   
 

[oldfordie]

Has anybody got a clue what the fuck big c is on about?

I can't make head nor tail of any of it and I'm confused to fuck but I do know that his "G" is genocide.

Your confused, I thought he was banging on about a Woman's Orgasms. these threads are all over the place lately so wouldn't have been a surprise.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Of course it's a shorterm way of looking at it, that's the whole point. Streeting has to find a short term solution to a very serious problem he will inherit from the Torys, a massive NHS waiting list of people living in agony who have been waiting for years for NHS treatment,  he has to actually solve this problem, what is the alternative. how else will be able to help all those people who have been waiting years for a op under the Torys? 

I think the argument of paying more just to treat these patients resulting in less money to spend on the NHS elsewhere isn't the way to look at it, what about the patients who need very expensive drugs on the NHS. do we tell them am sorry but all this money just goes into the coffers of the big Pharmas, we prefer not to spend this money helping you and spend it elsewhere in the NHS. it's better value.


I understand the concerns of creeping privatisation but nobody is being conned into supporting creeping privatisation, the fact you think this is the thinking of the right shows it's more about ideology rather than for what it is, the Labour party finding a short term solution that actually helps people.   
 

This is always a problem. In an ideal world there are many things that we'd all want to see concerning the NHS.

In reality, those things don't appear to be instantly do-able.

We have had more than a decade of cynical de-funding and siphoning facilities, equipment, personnel and expertise from where people need them most to areas where politicians make the most personal money from companies and organisations that quite often they are directly involved with.

Is what they've done illegal? Perhaps it should be? I think Nobby makes some good points, but I agree with you that people need action NOW to address stuff that they would have been able to have done had a competant and non-shithouse Party had been running** the country for the last decade or longer.


**I realise that the suggestion that the Tories have been running anything other than their personal interests is a bit stupid. They've never given much of a fuck about the UK, the things that make the UK special or the population.

[Yorkykopite]

Your confused, I thought he was banging on about a Woman's Orgasms. these threads are all over the place lately so wouldn't have been a surprise.

I thought he might be going on about George Galloway, but that didn't make much sense either.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I thought he might be going on about George Galloway, but that didn't make much sense either.

I thought he was going on about something that sounds a bit like the Geordie fishing-rod and stella supplying ex Everton footballer looking for a nutter in some bushes?

[Yorkykopite]

I thought he was going on about something that sounds a bit like the Geordie fishing-rod and stella supplying ex Everton footballer looking for a nutter in some bushes?

Yeah, that crossed my mind too Andy.

[oldfordie]

This is always a problem. In an ideal world there are many things that we'd all want to see concerning the NHS.

In reality, those things don't appear to be instantly do-able.

We have had more than a decade of cynical de-funding and siphoning facilities, equipment, personnel and expertise from where people need them most to areas where politicians make the most personal money from companies and organisations that quite often they are directly involved with.

Is what they've done illegal? Perhaps it should be? I think Nobby makes some good points, but I agree with you that people need action NOW to address stuff that they would have been able to have done had a competant and non-shithouse Party had been running** the country for the last decade or longer.


**I realise that the suggestion that the Tories have been running anything other than their personal interests is a bit stupid. They've never given much of a fuck about the UK, the things that make the UK special or the population.

Yes. it's all about someone who cares actually finding a solution to a very serious problem, it's actually money well spent as well considering the effect it will have for that person. £10.000 for hip replacement to relieve years of agony.
I think all the other arguments just distract from what's important.

I don't think you will get any arguments on whether the Torys have acted in their own interests, it's not that am unaware of the dangers of lobbying, anyone who doesn't should look up ALEC in the US and the damage they did to the US. evil bas. they did more than line their pockets as well as they politicians, they make the Post office look like softies.
I would support a change in the laws to stop lobbying but I wouldn't automatically make me connect it to Streeting finding a solution to the NHS backlog.   

[Jiminy Cricket]

I thought he might be going on about George Galloway, but that didn't make much sense either.

I think the PM I received about 'Gaza' was erroneous. After due consideration, I think G = Geremy Corbyn.

[reddebs]

Glad it wasn't just me confused I even got the "G" word guess wrong.

Very strange few days reading these boards especially for someone who has such a scatty understanding of politics 😂

[Robinred]

Glad it wasn't just me confused I even got the "G" word guess wrong.

Very strange few days reading these boards especially for someone who has such a scatty understanding of politics 😂

It wasn’t just you Debs. Anyway, I’m grateful (as I’m sure you are) for OF’s out-of-the-box thinking regarding G-Spots - he used capitals to press home the point too😜

[reddebs]

It wasn’t just you Debs. Anyway, I’m grateful (as I’m sure you are) for OF’s out-of-the-box thinking regarding G-Spots - he used capitals to press home the point too😜

😂

[oldfordie]

I post in many places because I like to hear all angles. Specially ones that I'm uncomfortable with. Echo chambers are a meaningless waste of life. And we know what Rawk is echoing. I'm trying to break that.

I post on redcafe and more recently bluemoon too. Their politics thread are way more open for discussions. And before you say it, yes sir I'll just fk off there then, then, then...then.

If your looking to post whatever you like without being seriously challenged with facts and evidence then yeah best staying in Red Cafe.
What you see as a negative is a big positive in serious debate, we don't all agree on everything, we challenge the posts not the person. this is something that upset people who post rubbish. they are use to people agreeing with what ever they say without challenge so they think they know what they are talking about  they come on here and repeat that rubbish and their opinions are challenged and shown to be wrong, they have no counter arguments and end up screaming it's a echo chamber in here.

[Red Beret]

That that poster has admitted going onto other football forums to deliberately troll politics threads on those sites, sums them up, & should be fucked off from here permanently.

If they freely admit to hanging around BlueLoon trying to engage in actual discussion rather than lurk and marvel at their collective insanity then I'd say they probably shouldn't be on here.

[Kenny's Jacket]

He said he goes on other forums and discusses politics, is that ban worthy ?

[Red Beret]

Will I be able to swallow my morals and vote for G supporting maniacs to help other people? Overlook the total and ultimate destruction of thousands of helpless little dirty brown faced lives for the better livelihood of other (mostly cleaner looking faced) lives? No.

lol, what morals? Anybody who can happily admit they're fine with the Tories being in charge because it makes no difference to them clearly has no morals.

[oldfordie]

It wasn’t just you Debs. Anyway, I’m grateful (as I’m sure you are) for OF’s out-of-the-box thinking regarding G-Spots - he used capitals to press home the point too😜

So I was right then he was talking about the G-Spot   

[TSC]

On the positive side of things

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/cabinet-ministers-tories-lost-seats-election-2854349?ico=above_article_ticker

[TepidT2O]

On the MRP poll today….

Some arse is telling Tory backbenchers that is biased etc.. (although there’s no reason to think that whatsoever).

On the flip side, it has the Tories getting 169 seats with 26% of the vote.  They only got 165 with 31% in 97’, so they might want to consider hater it really does bias against them.

[So… Howard Philips]

On the MRP poll today….

Some arse is telling Tory backbenchers that is biased etc.. (although there’s no reason to think that whatsoever).

On the flip side, it has the Tories getting 169 seats with 26% of the vote.  They only got 165 with 31% in 97’, so they might want to consider hater it really does bias against them.

I think the whole thing is to put the wind up Reform in that if they stand they’ll open the door to a bunch of nanny state loving, wokey lefties…..

[Red Beret]

On the MRP poll today….

Some arse is telling Tory backbenchers that is biased etc.. (although there’s no reason to think that whatsoever).

On the flip side, it has the Tories getting 169 seats with 26% of the vote.  They only got 165 with 31% in 97’, so they might want to consider hater it really does bias against them.

Seem to recall the Liberal/SDP Alliance getting 26% back in 1983 and only getting 23 seats. Tories should count themselves lucky.

[TepidT2O]

I think the whole thing is to put the wind up Reform in that if they stand they’ll open the door to a bunch of nanny state loving, wokey lefties…..

I think they’d be happiest with that.
If they actually got any policies enacted, people would see that they were fucking stupid and didn’t work.

[So… Howard Philips]

Why the fuck would you go around football websites to troll on politics threads? Absolutely weird.

Does he go on Conservative Home and post his views on xg and VAR?

[west_london_red]

On the positive side of things

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/cabinet-ministers-tories-lost-seats-election-2854349?ico=above_article_ticker

If even half of them lost their seats I’d be ecstatic, Mercer, Redwood, Anderson and Mourdant would be particularly satisfying though.

[Yorkykopite]

I wonder what percentage the Tories have to dip below in order to face near wipe-out? Would, say, 22 per cent leaving with less than 50 seats?

[John C]

Christ, I wish I'd have posted at half 12, I'm going to a funeral please don't be nobheads while I'm out.

[oldfordie]

I wonder what percentage the Tories have to dip below in order to face near wipe-out? Would, say, 22 per cent leaving with less than 50 seats?

22 percent would be a disaster but how will they react to this disasterous result. I must be one of the few who thinks they will be forced to move to the left  most think they will become even more right wing, I see that as a mistake that actually does them more harm in the long run, the right only win over voters with insulting lies and propaganda, this is the reason they are going to get hammered at the next election so they are just going to piss off the public even more if they move to the right, If they do suffer this election disaster then I think they have to start from scratch and disown this Tory government by bringing in Torys who ask the public to trust them again, that means admitting the budgets were a massive mistake made by talentless people who were only interested in wining power for themselves rather than doing best for the country.
If they want to move to the right then fine, they will win over some of the hard core nutters but they need more than that to win a election, they have to win over the center floating voters, how will that happen unless people start listening to them again. that wont happen if people believe they've haven't changed course, at the end of the day I don't think theres much the Torys can do to win over the public for at least 10yrs. the next couple of elections will be a big pointer for the future, a 2024 hammering will be brilliant but it will be awful of they make a dramatic recovery at the following election, that will mean we still haven't learned, that will be tragic for everyone,  the vicious cycle will repeat for more generations when we had the opportunity to take the Torys to oblivion.

[west_london_red]

First of all, don’t underestimate the political effectiveness of lies, propaganda and easy solutions to complex problems, right wingers have been using that same technique across the world for a very long time and it does sadly work sometimes.

If the election is the disaster for the Tories that we hope it is it’s also a question of whose left in the party, a lot of the moderates have already left or have said they are not standing at the next election so it there might not be many sensible Tories left to pick a sensible leader, it could well be headbangers voting for headbangers, especially when you have a dwindling, old and out of touch membership who very much buys lies, propaganda and easy solutions approach (see the Truss leadership campaign). So I am sticking to my long standing prediction, they will get hammered at the next election, blame it on Sunak who many Tories see as a centrist (which he probably is in the current Tory Party) move further to the right because they will read the hammering as them not being right wing enough, then come 2029 they will get beaten convincingly again and then move to the actual centre as most people see it.

[oldfordie]

First of all, don’t underestimate the political effectiveness of lies, propaganda and easy solutions to complex problems, right wingers have been using that same technique across the world for a very long time and it does sadly work sometimes.

If the election is the disaster for the Tories that we hope it is it’s also a question of whose left in the party, a lot of the moderates have already left or have said they are not standing at the next election so it there might not be many sensible Tories left to pick a sensible leader, it could well be headbangers voting for headbangers, especially when you have a dwindling, old and out of touch membership who very much buys lies, propaganda and easy solutions approach (see the Truss leadership campaign). So I am sticking to my long standing prediction, they will get hammered at the next election, blame it on Sunak who many Tories see as a centrist (which he probably is in the current Tory Party) move further to the right because they will read the hammering as them not being right wing enough, then come 2029 they will get beaten convincingly again and then move to the actual centre as most people see it.

I don't underestimate the lies and there will be many life long Torys who will fall for it but the big difference I see compared to any previous period is the reaction by the average voter, the floating voter. they are not even listening to them as they've lost all respect. they see them for what they are, that's really were am coming from. the Torys may well move towards the right and as you say it all depends who left in Parliament so this is why I think it would be a big mistake for the Torys to go even further to the right. they have to accept they've f.. up big time and understand the position they are in, if they come back with the same attitude then they really could end up in the same position as the Lib Dems with few MPs.
Now we all know these Torys are thick but not all of them are, maybe it might take another election to learn the lesson, that would be great if it happens but I still think heads will get together and tell some hard truths, we f,, up badly, we have to change direction to survive, I know many will say this just plays into Farages hands and it does but they have only themselves to blame for this no win situation, there nothing they can do to avoid a election disaster.
The public know all the attacks on others is all about diverting attention away from their record, it's impossible to convince anyone on anything if they are not listening.

[TepidT2O]

What is interesting is that the young in this country are overwhelmingly left leaning. The Tories are polling less than 5% in the 18-24 category for instance.

I would assume this was the same in other countries, but across much of Europe the rise of the right a
Has been amongst the younger groups.  LePen in France for example is supported by the young.

I wonder why we differ?

[killer-heels]

What is interesting is that the young in this country are overwhelmingly left leaning. The Tories are polling less than 5% in the 18-24 category for instance.

I would assume this was the same in other countries, but across much of Europe the rise of the right a
Has been amongst the younger groups.  LePen in France for example is supported by the young.

I wonder why we differ?

Because british youngsters are less racist than their european counterparts?

[Historical Fool]

you think everyone on RAWK agrees with each other?

Everyone should agree with tubby.

And Mac red …

[Sangria]

What is interesting is that the young in this country are overwhelmingly left leaning. The Tories are polling less than 5% in the 18-24 category for instance.

I would assume this was the same in other countries, but across much of Europe the rise of the right a
Has been amongst the younger groups.  LePen in France for example is supported by the young.

I wonder why we differ?

Is there a monolithic right for people to unite against in PR countries? Here, FPTP means the right unites under the Tory umbrella or its one offshoot, and "the enemy" is easy to identify. This might not be the case in PR environments.