Topic: Labour Thread * No Gaza *

[LuverlyRita]

When the general election is called and Labour have their manifesto then it's time to line those ducks up and go after the Tories with no holds barred. Everything should be about how they have fucked the country and made personal fortunes for them and their mates while every service in the UK has got worse, while every 'normal' person in the UK has got poorer, why everything is crap and why Labour are the party to fix it.

Keeping your powder dry when the Tories are making all the bad headlines themselves is a decent place to be in before an election. Why give the fuckers any ammo?

Arguably he should start by going after the largely non-dom owning right wing media first because they have been instrumental in poisoning the dialogue in this country and do not have the UK's best interests at heart. It's ridiculous that Starmer has to do so much sitting-on-the-fence and walking on egg-shells because of the likes of Murdoch.
In addition, if (or hopefully when) Starmer becomes PM he needs to grab back the debate from the extremists - on both sides of the fence - and start some rational, sensible discussions on issues that have been dogging the country. The "you're-either-for-us-or-against-us" mentality does nobody any favours.

[Red-Soldier]

A welcome change of tone:

Labour steps up criticism of ‘intolerable’ killings in Gaza

Shadow foreign secretary David Lammy slams Israeli ‘death and destruction’ and urges UK travel ban on violent settlers

The Labour party today delivers its strongest criticism of Israel over its attacks on Palestinians, describing the death and destruction in Gaza over the past two months as “intolerable” and attacking two far-right Israeli cabinet ministers for “totally unacceptable” support of illegal settlements in the West Bank.

In a sharp change of tone, David Lammy, the shadow foreign secretary, with the full backing of party leader Keir Starmer, attacks the Israeli authorities for “turning a blind eye” to violence by settlers in the West Bank, which has “forcibly displaced” more than 1,000 Palestinians from their homes since the attacks on Israel by Hamas on 7 October.

He criticises far-right ministers for pumping huge sums into the budget for settlements, which threaten any hope of a political solution, while “defunding the Palestinian Authority and promoting dangerous and extreme rhetoric about Palestinians”.

Labour has been split over whether or not to call for a ceasefire. By echoing US calls for action against extremist settlers, Lammy can lay claim to be taking a stronger stance on protecting Palestinians without moving beyond the US and UK government position on whether Israel should stop its war on Hamas in Gaza.

Writing in the Observer, Lammy demands that Rishi Sunak’s government impose immediate travel bans on those responsible for settler violence, and says a Labour government will not tolerate Palestinians being forced out of their homes.

Labour’s call follows US plans announced last week to impose travel bans on extremist Jewish settlers implicated in attacks on Palestinians in the West Bank, a rare punitive move against Israel from Washington.

“The people of Gaza, like the people of the West Bank, must know that a Labour government, with the international community, will not tolerate their expulsion,” writes Lammy.

“Israel must clearly affirm that Palestinians displaced since 7 October will be able to return to their homes. This must be at the core of our efforts.”

Lammy wrote of visiting a Bedouin community in the West Bank, who had been driven from their village Wadi as-Seeq by “an armed group of illegal settlers”.

The Guardian visited the village and met the community two weeks after the 7 October attacks on Israel, reporting on the latest in a series of expulsions which Israeli activists described as “the most successful land-grab strategy since 1967”. Since then, attacks and forced displacement have only gathered pace.

The comments came as the death toll in Gaza rose towards 18,000 and the humanitarian crisis deepened. A top UN official warned that “people are starving”, and constraints on getting aid into Gaza were so extreme, and conditions so bad, that its relief operation was “no longer tenable”.

“With law and order breaking down, any meaningful humanitarian operation is impossible,” Carl Skau, deputy executive director of the World Food Programme, said after visiting Gaza on Friday. He said in some areas, nine out of 10 families were going for entire days without eating.

“Nothing quite prepared me for the fear, the chaos, and the despair we encountered. Confusion at warehouses, distribution points with thousands of desperate hungry people, supermarkets with bare shelves.”

As global concern about the threat to Gaza’s civilian population sharpened, the US vetoed a United Nations resolution calling for an immediate ceasefire on Friday. The UK abstained, saying it would have supported the motion had it contained explicit criticism of Hamas.

While not saying it would have backed the UN resolution, a Labour spokesperson said: “If we were in government we would be doing all we can to negotiate a text that the whole council could support based on a cessation of hostilities, to alleviate the suffering of Palestinian civilians, secure the release of all remaining hostages, and using that as a stepping stone to an enduring end to this conflict. The world needs a UN that can speak with a collective voice, not be hamstrung by division.”

As Israeli forces fought to consolidate their control of northern Gaza on Saturday , and expanded their campaign in the south, the Israeli newspaper Haaretz published an analysis showing that the aerial bombing campaign is the most indiscriminate in terms of civilian casualties in Gaza in recent years.

In the first three weeks of the current operation, Swords of Iron, the civilian proportion of total deaths shot up to 61%, in what Haaretz described as “unprecedented killing”. The ratio is also significantly higher than the civilian toll in all the conflicts around the world during the 20th century, in which civilians accounted for around half the dead.

“The broad conclusion is that extensive killing of civilians not only contributes nothing to Israel’s security, but that it also contains the foundations for further undermining it,” Haaretz concluded. “The Gazans who will emerge from the ruins of their homes and the loss of their families will seek revenge that no security arrangements will be able to withstand.”

The study confirms an investigation 10 days ago by two other Israeli news sites, +972 Magazine and Local Call, which found that Israel was deliberately targeting residential blocks to cause mass civilian casualties in the hope Gazans would turn on their Hamas rulers. The figures will make uneasy reading for the Biden administration. Since the start of war, the US has been seeking to persuade Israeli forces to be more discriminating in choosing targets, and has repeatedly claimed that the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) are “receptive” to American advice, despite the consistently high civilian death toll.

The US national security spokesperson, John Kirby, repeated that claim while briefing reporters on Air Force One on Friday, but he added: “We certainly all recognise more can be done to try to reduce civilian casualties, and we’re going to keep working with our Israeli counterparts to that end.”

Human Rights Watch said the US risked “complicity in war crimes” by continuing to provide Israel with weapons and diplomatic support. Paul O’Brien, the executive director of Amnesty International USA, said: “With this veto, the US government is shamefully turning its back on immense civilian suffering, staggering death toll, and unprecedented humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza.”

By Saturday the death toll from the war was more than 17,700, health authorities under the Hamas-run government said, with thousands more believed to be buried under the rubble. The UN said nearly 13,000 of the dead were women and children.

Israel says 93 Israeli soldiers have died in the military operation launched after Hamas’s attack killed 1,200 people, mostly civilians, with more than 200 taken hostage.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/dec/09/labour-steps-up-criticism-of-intolerable-killings-in-gaza

[Nobby Reserve]

A welcome change of tone:

Labour steps up criticism of ‘intolerable’ killings in Gaza

Shadow foreign secretary David Lammy slams Israeli ‘death and destruction’ and urges UK travel ban on violent settlers

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/dec/09/labour-steps-up-criticism-of-intolerable-killings-in-gaza

But even 14,000 dead Palestinians isn't enough to satisfy Cruella's thirst for slaughter

Suella Braverman MP
@SuellaBraverman
As marches take place yet again where we’ll see anti-semitism & hatred in London, it is sad to see democracies vote at the UN for a naive & hypocritical ceasefire motion.

Thank you USA for supporting Israel’s right to defend herself.

The UK’s abstention was very disappointing

[killer-heels]

Whats Wes Streeting on about today?

[Clint Eastwood]

Whats Wes Streeting on about today?

More bollocks. The unwell patients sat in corridors and the crowds of people waiting 12 hours in ED waiting rooms must be actors, who are all part of this ploy for the NHS to scrounge more money.

[oldfordie]

More bollocks. The unwell patients sat in corridors and the crowds of people waiting 12 hours in ED waiting rooms must be actors, who are all part of this ploy for the NHS to scrounge more money.

Does he say that or is it down to your interpretation of what he meant. ?
Streeting says we have to help people who are in agony quickly is usually translated to I want to privatise the NHS so the Capitalist's can make loads of dosh.

[killer-heels]

Does he say that or is it down to your interpretation of what he meant. ?
Streeting says we have to help people who are in agony quickly is usually translated to I want to privatise the NHS so the Capitalist's can make loads of dosh.

Do you have access to that article?

[Father Ted]

I’m guessing the Singapore Hospital’s he visited on his latest free jolly weren’t built and maintained on no money, or run effectively via the repeated publicised criticisms of middle-management arseholes like Wes demoralising the staff, telling them there’s no cash (a lie, there is - they just don’t think you and your family are worth spending it on), that they’re all cheeky twats for expecting any money to spent anyway and that they just need to do more with less via unspecified ‘reform’ or ‘innovation.’

But running down the NHS in order to curry favour with rightwing rags is what Streeting is all about. That and pocketing private healthcare donations. An utter weasel.

[Father Ted]

Do you have access to that article?

https://archive.is/7ksOm

Witness the shitness

[oldfordie]

Do you have access to that article?

What does Competency mean?
It means you understand what you are doing, you bring in a system that works efficiently, a system that delivers high standards
This is no surprise really, a Labour government will bring more than just throwing money at problems, it will bring competency. to fix a failed NHS then it will have to re orgnise how things are done so they eliminate as many problems as possible. I don't blame the NHS for creating all these problems as many of these problems weren't around before the Torys started chopping but solutions haven't been found.
It's one of the reasons we desperately need a Labour government quickly, this lot are clueless, just chopped everything for years and now they suddenly think throwing more money at it will fix what they broke.

Funny enough I was talking to someone over the way our local doctors has improved dramatically since they brought in a new system to triage people trying to get a doctors appointment.

The change is incredible, for years now ive had to phone up day after day first thing in the morning to be told sorry booked up, phone up tomorrow.
Just fill in a few questions now and the doctor will call you in if they think you need treatment urgently, ive been called in twice in the last few months within 2 hours of filling in the questions, I would normally finish up frustrated hitting a dead wall unable to get past the receptionist. waiting over 2 weeks before i got in.

[Sangria]

What does Competency mean?
It means you understand what you are doing, you bring in a system that works efficiently, a system that delivers high standards
This is no surprise really, a Labour government will bring more than just throwing money at problems, it will bring competency. to fix a failed NHS then it will have to re orgnise how things are done so they eliminate as many problems as possible. I don't blame the NHS for creating all these problems as many of these problems weren't around before the Torys started chopping but solutions haven't been found.
It's one of the reasons we desperately need a Labour government quickly, this lot are clueless, just chopped everything for years and now they suddenly think throwing more money at it will fix what they broke.

Funny enough I was talking to someone over the way our local doctors has improved dramatically since they brought in a new system to triage people trying to get a doctors appointment.

The change is incredible, for years now ive had to phone up day after day first thing in the morning to be told sorry booked up, phone up tomorrow.
Just fill in a few questions now and the doctor will call you in if they think you need treatment urgently, ive been called in twice in the last few months within 2 hours of filling in the questions, I would normally finish up frustrated hitting a dead wall unable to get past the receptionist. waiting over 2 weeks before i got in.

I saw someone, normally all too ready to grind their axe against Starmer, talk about their personal experience of the back end of the NHS. Talking about how the current system is uncoordinated, that there was much scope for improvement in this, which by itself, even before any additional funds, would have a large effect.

From other comments, it also looks like the headline bears little resemblance to the body of the article. I don't have time to read the article right now, but will do so when I do.

[killer-heels]

What does Competency mean?
It means you understand what you are doing, you bring in a system that works efficiently, a system that delivers high standards
This is no surprise really, a Labour government will bring more than just throwing money at problems, it will bring competency. to fix a failed NHS then it will have to re orgnise how things are done so they eliminate as many problems as possible. I don't blame the NHS for creating all these problems as many of these problems weren't around before the Torys started chopping but solutions haven't been found.
It's one of the reasons we desperately need a Labour government quickly, this lot are clueless, just chopped everything for years and now they suddenly think throwing more money at it will fix what they broke.

Funny enough I was talking to someone over the way our local doctors has improved dramatically since they brought in a new system to triage people trying to get a doctors appointment.

The change is incredible, for years now ive had to phone up day after day first thing in the morning to be told sorry booked up, phone up tomorrow.
Just fill in a few questions now and the doctor will call you in if they think you need treatment urgently, ive been called in twice in the last few months within 2 hours of filling in the questions, I would normally finish up frustrated hitting a dead wall unable to get past the receptionist. waiting over 2 weeks before i got in.

So is it safe to say the NHS is a load of shite then and a lot of that has to do with how they run?

[Sangria]

So is it safe to say the NHS is a load of shite then and a lot of that has to do with how they run?

It could be more joined up than it currently is.

[west_london_red]

It’s a lot of the usual cliches around technology, apps etc which every politician comes out with, but I do get tired of these comparisons with Singapore (remember Brexiteers and Singapore upon Thames?). Now I haven’t been to Singapore myself, but I have a couple of friends who moved over there (one who ironically still came here to have her kids on the NHS) and it’s a completely different country and culture to ours and I’m really not sure how much of what they do over there can be transported over here

[Sangria]

It’s a lot of the usual cliches around technology, apps etc which every politician comes out with, but I do get tired of these comparisons with Singapore (remember Brexiteers and Singapore upon Thames?). Now I haven’t been to Singapore myself, but I have a couple of friends who moved over there (one who ironically still came here to have her kids on the NHS) and it’s a completely different country and culture to ours and I’m really not sure how much of what they do over there can be transported over here

Technology and apps have a fair bit to do with how the NHS can improve, albeit not in the manner you probably mean. Much of the up-teching has been done piecemeal, without any joined up thinking, meaning that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. Just some competent administration of what's already around, even without any major injection of money, can already improve the running of the health service. In some ways, the N of NHS is a misnomer; it's run regionally, and even departmentally.

[oldfordie]

So is it safe to say the NHS is a load of shite then and a lot of that has to do with how they run?

How did you reach that conclusion from my post ?
I gave a example of a problem 10s of thousands of people suffer everyday since the Torys came to power, unable to get a doctors appointment.
They have now come up with a new system to triage patients online so people who need to see a doctor urgently don't hit a brick wall when they try and book a appointment. they are now seen very quickly, maybe your lucky and have no need of doctors etc but it was very frustrating, the receptionists took the backlash, doctors had to defend them from angry patients, this was all down to runing a system that was inefficient, a system that hurt everyone all round, the patient, the receptionist, the doctors.
 Am praising them for coming up with this system am not calling it a load of shite, the system they used before this was a load of shite but ive never once said the NHS is a load of shite.
The point is someone competent came up with this system, it was down to competency rather than throwing money at the problem.

[thaddeus]

How did you reach that conclusion from my post ?
I gave a example of a problem 10s of thousands of people suffer everyday since the Torys came to power, unable to get a doctors appointment.
They have now come up with a new system to triage patients online so people who need to see a doctor urgently don't hit a brick wall when they try and book a appointment. they are now seen very quickly, maybe your lucky and have no need of doctors etc but it was very frustrating, the receptionists took the backlash, doctors had to defend them from angry patients, this was all down to runing a system that was inefficient, a system that hurt everyone all round, the patient, the receptionist, the doctors.
 Am praising them for coming up with this system am not calling it a load of shite, the system they used before this was a load of shite but ive never once said the NHS is a load of shite.
The point is someone competent came up with this system, it was down to competency rather than throwing money at the problem.

I still find it weird and inefficient that the NHS has such fragmented systems and such disparity in the adoption and successful use of technology.  I'm sure there's a lot of sharing of best practice but practical measures like a universal GP booking system seems to be beyond them.

I used to work in a local authority and it was the same there.  Most authorities - certainly those in the same tier (upper or lower) - would be providing the same services but each was procuring individually, managed slightly differently, and had different core technology seemingly decided on the whim of whoever was senior within IT at the time.  People moving into the area from a different local authority may as well have been arriving from Mars for all the information, or rather lack of, that came with them.

It's hard to know if it's ideology - the idea that competition between different areas will drive innovation - or laziness and incompetence from central government.  I can't imagine McNasty's, a crude example admittedly, asking each restaurant to come up with its own website or online ordering app.

Theoretically Labour should be more willing to take a lead on this centrally as the Tories pride themselves on being laissez faire.

[west_london_red]

Technology and apps have a fair bit to do with how the NHS can improve, albeit not in the manner you probably mean. Much of the up-teching has been done piecemeal, without any joined up thinking, meaning that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. Just some competent administration of what's already around, even without any major injection of money, can already improve the running of the health service. In some ways, the N of NHS is a misnomer; it's run regionally, and even departmentally.

Im always reluctant to buy too much into this kind of stuff on how people do things unless I’ve done it myself or have some knowledge on the subject, it’s just I have seen and heard it all before, and even been through it a few times before in my own work. Some twat (usually from one of the big consultancy firms) gets sent into see how we do things and why we do them the way we do them in what looks likes a complicated and convoluted way at first glance (with the insinuation that because we work in the public sector we are either stupid or lazy or both), then you sit and talk them through the related processes you need to adhere to, regulations, other constraints etc and guess what… you end up at the way we already do thing because guess what, we’re not as stupid or lazy as you (I’m not referring to you personally) think.

[Sangria]

Im always reluctant to buy too much into this kind of stuff on how people do things unless I’ve done it myself or have some knowledge on the subject, it’s just I have seen and heard it all before, and even been through it a few times before in my own work. Some twat (usually from one of the big consultancy firms) gets sent into see how we do things and why we do them the way we do them in what looks likes a complicated and convoluted way at first glance (with the insinuation that because we work in the public sector we are either stupid or lazy or both), then you sit and talk them through the related processes you need to adhere to, regulations, other constraints etc and guess what… you end up at the way we already do thing because guess what, we’re not as stupid or lazy as you (I’m not referring to you personally) think.

I got the above take from someone who is usually reflexively anti-Starmer for not being left wing enough, yet who had experience of the NHS back end to draw the above conclusion. People working in the system do what they do because of regulations and other things. So their take is that the regulations and everything surrounding the administration of the system needs to be reformed to allow people to run the health system more efficiently. So better planning at governmental level to allow better administration nearer the front end.

[oldfordie]

Im always reluctant to buy too much into this kind of stuff on how people do things unless I’ve done it myself or have some knowledge on the subject, it’s just I have seen and heard it all before, and even been through it a few times before in my own work. Some twat (usually from one of the big consultancy firms) gets sent into see how we do things and why we do them the way we do them in what looks likes a complicated and convoluted way at first glance (with the insinuation that because we work in the public sector we are either stupid or lazy or both), then you sit and talk them through the related processes you need to adhere to, regulations, other constraints etc and guess what… you end up at the way we already do thing because guess what, we’re not as stupid or lazy as you (I’m not referring to you personally) think.

Technology has made a huge difference in the improving the efficiency of the NHS already, it has/ had drastically cut waiting times to see a consultant etc, remember the days when you went the doctors who said they would refer you to see a consultant, you would then spend weeks waiting for a letter to pop through the door giving your appointment date,  all changed over 10yrs ago, Doctor said am referring you and turns to the screen and says is such and such a date and time ok with you, brilliant, the technology system they set up by passed all the weeks of waiting. it was direct contact between the doctor and the consultants appointments.
That hasn't happened over the last 5yrs or so, back to the old system, doctor refers you and you have to wait for weeks for appointment letter.

[Red-Soldier]

It’s a lot of the usual cliches around technology, apps etc which every politician comes out with, but I do get tired of these comparisons with Singapore (remember Brexiteers and Singapore upon Thames?). Now I haven’t been to Singapore myself, but I have a couple of friends who moved over there (one who ironically still came here to have her kids on the NHS) and it’s a completely different country and culture to ours and I’m really not sure how much of what they do over there can be transported over here

Singapore was built on slave labour - a real model of something we should aspire to.

[Red-Soldier]

Currently, the NHS is a sack of shit.

[classycarra]

Singapore was built on slave labour - a real model of something we should aspire to.

I must be behind on the news - are Labour proposing using slavery?

Wow that doesn't sound very good! Has anyone got a good guardian article criticising them for this?

[Indomitable_Carp]

Currently, the NHS is a sack of shit.

My Dad had a major seizure about 14 months ago, with the ambulance called out and everything. He was told he'd be put on a waiting list to see a specialist as a priority, but was then told he was being moved down the list. He then had a second seizure around April (ambulance called out again). Still no specialist appointment. Third seizure in August, ambulance out. Got an appointment for September, but appointment was cancelled on the day because the doctor was sick. Fourth seizure in October. Finally had an appointment this December, where they've put him on medication.

Even one seziure can be fatal.

[Red-Soldier]

My Dad had a major seizure about 14 months ago, with the ambulance called out and everything. He was told he'd be put on a waiting list to see a specialist as a priority, but was then told he was being moved down the list. He then had a second seizure around April (ambulance called out again). Still no specialist appointment. Third seizure in August, ambulance out. Got an appointment for September, but appointment was cancelled on the day because the doctor was sick. Fourth seizure in October. Finally had an appointment this December, where they've put him on medication.

Even one seziure can be fatal.

I know a few people with similar stories.  Things are shockingly bad, at the moment - it's literally killing people.

[LuverlyRita]

I know a few people with similar stories.  Things are shockingly bad, at the moment - it's literally killing people.

Things are shockingly bad, at the moment - it's literally killing poorer people.

[LuverlyRita]

Currently, the NHS is a sack of shit.

The healthcare system is a problem - where "system" includes any aftercare that needs to be provided by social services. I had experience of it a decade ago (with an elderly parent) and it was a nightmare. The hospital and the NHS were wonderful, dealing with social services was horrendous. In my Mum's case,  aftercare was available in a facility in the hospital grounds. All it needed was a hospital porter to transport her there in a wheelchair. Unfortunately the hospital facility "belonged" to Liverpool and, for the purpose of social care, my Mum was being handled by Sefton.  That "organisation" (if you can call it that) resulted in her surgical bed being occupied unnecessarily for several days and an ambulance being diverted to take her to a (Sefton) facility to the north of Southport where none of the family could visit during the working week. It was an absolute sh*t show, several operations were probably cancelled and the overall cost to the UK PLC was undoubtedly higher than if the simple cheap solution that was available could have been used 

[Red-Soldier]

Things are shockingly bad, at the moment - it's literally killing poorer people.

Yes.  Anyone who cannot afford to go private.

[Wullie160975]

I saw someone, normally all too ready to grind their axe against Starmer, talk about their personal experience of the back end of the NHS. Talking about how the current system is uncoordinated, that there was much scope for improvement in this, which by itself, even before any additional funds, would have a large effect.

From other comments, it also looks like the headline bears little resemblance to the body of the article. I don't have time to read the article right now, but will do so when I do.

I read the article. Another instance where people either only read the Guardian headline or hate Wes Streeting/Kier Starmer and went off on one. A lot of what is said in there is not negative (and nothing surprising really), just that we need to look at how things are run in the NHS and see where we can make it more efficient to get us back on track - especially looking to technology to help us bridge some of  those issues.

[thaddeus]

Things are shockingly bad, at the moment - it's literally killing poorer people.

That distinction is very important!  Private healthcare is booming and, whilst that won't do you much good if you need an ambulance, people that can afford it are getting treatment in no time.

My wife had an issue with her jaw for decades that the NHS have been aware of keeping a watching brief over.  A few years ago they decided it required surgery but after two years all she'd managed was a cancelled operation and stuck on a long waiting list.  One of her colleagues said she'd had the same issue and that their work healthcare covered it (US multinational).  Within six weeks she'd seen the consultant, been booked in and had the operation.  I'm of course happy for my wife but her situation is no use to the thousands of other people still stuck in the waiting list that she fortunately bypassed.

I know it's all a bit Red Commie but I think all elected officials and immediate family members should have to use the public services they're elected to be in charge of (health, education, social care etc.).  I suspect the imbalance between the haves and the have nots in terms of provision of those services would soon shrink.  I'd also take the risk of losing the "brightest and the best" that would choose not to go into politics because of such a policy - we could only hope the UK would struggle through without the likes of Cameron, Johnson and Sunak sprinkling their stardust.

[John C]

There was a really good conversation with Angela Raynor on the Leading podcast today with Alastair & Rory.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Reading this new James O'Brien book and it's really good - 'How They Broke Britain' and there is a part in it that discusses the idea of 'All Parties are all the same' - it gets those that oppose the far-right to support the far-right without them even knowing. If you can get people to not only think like that, but to tell other people that then they are doing the far-right's job for them - where the burden of proof is so much less because they don't care.

Bit depressing as well to be honest.

I'd certainly recommend reading it - it shows just how we have got to this shitshow now.

[Nobby Reserve]

The healthcare system is a problem - where "system" includes any aftercare that needs to be provided by social services. I had experience of it a decade ago (with an elderly parent) and it was a nightmare. The hospital and the NHS were wonderful, dealing with social services was horrendous. In my Mum's case,  aftercare was available in a facility in the hospital grounds. All it needed was a hospital porter to transport her there in a wheelchair. Unfortunately the hospital facility "belonged" to Liverpool and, for the purpose of social care, my Mum was being handled by Sefton.  That "organisation" (if you can call it that) resulted in her surgical bed being occupied unnecessarily for several days and an ambulance being diverted to take her to a (Sefton) facility to the north of Southport where none of the family could visit during the working week. It was an absolute sh*t show, several operations were probably cancelled and the overall cost to the UK PLC was undoubtedly higher than if the simple cheap solution that was available could have been used 

This is the fragmentation of whole NHS & Care system, into a series of silos that have their own budgets and hard-charge each other. It started under The Thatcher, was expanded under Major, continued under Blair/Brown, and expanded again under Cameron. In addition, that Cameron/Osborne government slashed local authority budgets, forcing them to penny-pinch everywhere and refuse to take on any expense that they could avoid.

How much money is wasted by having all these silos with their own teams of managers and bean-counters? Doesn't help that half are headed by 'business people' from the private sector wanting to play at being a CEO and build their own little empires.

[LuverlyRita]

How much money is wasted by having all these silos with their own teams of managers and bean-counters?

Loads. It's no different in the private sector. I was trying to staff a project and people with the necessary skills were available and sat within yards of me. But I was unable to use them because they belonged to a "different division" i.e. a bean-counter generated silo. Instead I had to entice people from the same division who were based in the south with all the expenses that entails (travel, hotels etc). It was much "cheaper" from the point of view of my internal project costings but much more expensive from the company's perspective. 

[John C]

Starmer has delivered a great speech this morning.
Get in lad.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Starmer has delivered a great speech this morning.
Get in lad.

What did he say?

[Elliemental]

Whats Wes Streeting on about today?

He really is fucking awful. Streeting is honestly the type of career politician that makes me wonder why anyone still bothers to vote for Labour.

[stewil007]

He really is fucking awful. Streeting is honestly the type of career politician that makes me wonder why anyone still bothers to vote for Labour.

One MP doesn't make a Party.

Parties of all colours have members and MPs that would make you wonder why anyone voted....period.

[Red Beret]

Nick Brown resigns.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/dec/12/nick-brown-resigns-labour-complete-farce-disciplinary-process

[John C]

What did he say?

Sorry mate, been out to give blood.
He said lots of jolly good stuff and his final words were actually let's pull together to push the Tories in to the sea.
It'll be on YT.