Topic: Labour Thread

[Yorkykopite]

No, they accepted the result of the referendum, as did the SNP. No one contested the legitimacy of the result.

That is a separate thing from later behaviour in regards to holding another one.

And so what have they done wrong here?

[Elmo!]

And so what have they done wrong here?

I've been over this a lot Yorky, you should probably go back and read my posts - that way you might figure out what I have actually been arguing, rather than what you've imagined I was arguing.

Also aware we are probably boring everyone else at this point.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

No, they accepted the result of the referendum, as did the SNP. No one contested the legitimacy of the result.

That is a separate thing from later behaviour in regards to holding another one.

Didn't the SNP market the last one as a once in a lifetime opportunity ?

[Elmo!]

Didn't the SNP say that the first one was a once in a lifetime opportunity ?

They did. That doesn't imply any commitment to not pushing for another one.

It's a common turn of phrase used widely to mean you might not get another chance so take this one.

[Dr. Beaker]

Just stop.

[Elmo!]

Just stop.

Sorry! I'm trying not to extend conversations but not going to let a question just go unanswered.

[Lusty]

He's 28 till he's 29. That's how it works.

[Nobby Reserve]

Been a while since ive checked out the SNPs arguments for another referendum but I think they do have a legitimate argument to justify holding another referendum if voters voted believing better together meant Scotland remaining in the EU. didn't Strugeon make this point many times in the past.
The Independence referendum was 2014, the EU referendum 2016. what would the result have been if the EU referendum was 2014 and the Scottish Independence referendum 2016, I think a Yes for independence would have been a cert.

 

That's my thinking. 2016 reset everything.

Elmo, I think you have every moral justification for another referendum. The Tory c*nts will move heaven and earth to block a referendum as they love to subjugate as many plebs as possible. Yorky will feign ignorance of your arguments.

[Byrnee]

That's my thinking. 2016 reset everything.

Elmo, I think you have every moral justification for another referendum. The Tory c*nts will move heaven and earth to block a referendum as they love to subjugate as many plebs as possible. Yorky will feign ignorance of your arguments.

I think you'll find most people on here have been arguing quite reasonably with Elmo with no need to feign ignorance Nobby.

Nothing Elmo has said had made sense, he's been back and forth on arguing referendums and conditions and once in a lifetime quotes, ignoring that the only party wanting to repeat referenda 'until they get the right result' are the SNP.

[Elmo!]

I think you'll find most people on here have been arguing quite reasonably with Elmo with no need to feign ignorance Nobby.

Nothing Elmo has said had made sense, he's been back and forth on arguing referendums and conditions and once in a lifetime quotes, ignoring that the only party wanting to repeat referenda 'until they get the right result' are the SNP.

"Arguing quite reasonable" in my opinion would be replying to me to point out where you don't thinkk I have been making sense rather than making disparaging omments to others about me.

I haven't ignored that the SNP want to have anothe referendum, in fact I have been quite explicit about it. My point was that it is only hypothetical in the SNPs case that it will be "until they get the result they want", whereasfor the unionists we are already at that position where they got the result they wanted and now want to stop.

And it is once in a generation, not lifetime, and no one has said anything to retort my position on it - I can only assume they agree.

[rob1966]

I think you'll find most people on here have been arguing quite reasonably with Elmo with no need to feign ignorance Nobby.

Nothing Elmo has said had made sense, he's been back and forth on arguing referendums and conditions and once in a lifetime quotes, ignoring that the only party wanting to repeat referenda 'until they get the right result' are the SNP.

I've not been following what's been getting said, but I agree with what oldfordie wrote. I do think that if the Scots had known they were going to get dragged out of the EU by the dickheads and end up with this absolute shitshow we are all now suffering, they would have voted for Independence.

They should be allowed another referendum as far as I'm concerned, based on the massively shifted goalposts that Brexit is, but that should be the last one.

[Byrnee]

"Arguing quite reasonable" in my opinion would be replying to me to point out where you don't thinkk I have been making sense rather than making disparaging omments to others about me.

I haven't ignored that the SNP want to have anothe referendum, in fact I have been quite explicit about it. My point was that it is only hypothetical in the SNPs case that it will be "until they get the result they want", whereasfor the unionists we are already at that position where they got the result they wanted and now want to stop.

And it is once in a generation, not lifetime, and no one has said anything to retort my position on it - I can only assume they agree.

People have pointed out multiple times about the bizarre argument about 'holding referendums until they get the result they wanted'

It's just getting boring now, clearly it's not getting through, but the argument is absolutely fundamentally nonsensical. You can't keep saying you're right based on an argument that if things had been different people would have acted in the way you say. That's ridiculous.

As for the generation/lifetime thing, I think most people would argue a generation as a term encompasses slightly more than 8 years, no?

This would be a huge historical shift globally and locally and would mean years of difficult turmoil and negotiations to enact a split that would in all likelihood please no-one fully, as the best compromises do.

The idea that we just casually keep throwing that out there to a public vote is as stupid as the Brexit referendum was in the first place.

People don't know the impact such a decision will make to their lives and can vote dependant on mood.

Let me put it another way. If a vote is agreed, and the result is exactly flipped in favour of leave, will you be willing to have a third referendum in another few years to see if you actually do leave or rejoin. And if not, why not?

[WhereAngelsPlay]

They did. That doesn't imply any commitment to not pushing for another one.

It's a common turn of phrase used widely to mean you might not get another chance so take this one.

It kidna did & I might be misremembering but I'm pretty sure that part of the agreement for holding indyref was that they couldn't have another for something like 25yrs.


And for the record,if I were Scottish I'd be fuming after Brexit.

[Elmo!]

People have pointed out multiple times about the bizarre argument about 'holding referendums until they get the result they wanted'

It's just getting boring now, clearly it's not getting through, but the argument is absolutely fundamentally nonsensical. You can't keep saying you're right based on an argument that if things had been different people would have acted in the way you say. That's ridiculous.

As for the generation/lifetime thing, I think most people would argue a generation as a term encompasses slightly more than 8 years, no?

This would be a huge historical shift globally and locally and would mean years of difficult turmoil and negotiations to enact a split that would in all likelihood please no-one fully, as the best compromises do.

The idea that we just casually keep throwing that out there to a public vote is as stupid as the Brexit referendum was in the first place.

People don't know the impact such a decision will make to their lives and can vote dependant on mood.

Let me put it another way. If a vote is agreed, and the result is exactly flipped in favour of leave, will you be willing to have a third referendum in another few years to see if you actually do leave or rejoin. And if not, why not?

I think my problem here is I am evidently not making my point clearly enough, though Debs managed to get it. It's really not a difficult concept to understand. In response I have had people try to go off on tangents about Brexit or flat out make up things I have said and then accuse ME of arguing in bad faith.

The gereration thing is nonsense because no one ever made any such commitment so the length of a generation is meaningless in this context.

There is only one party that has been consistent on when a referendum should take place and what constitutes a mandate for it. Labour and the Tories maintain it's a voluntary union, that it is up to the people of Scotland, that a majority in Holyrood was a mandate and then just go back on all that when it no longer suits them.

In answer to your last question, absolutely, if a mandate for it is won in Holyrood.

[Elmo!]

It kidna did & I might be misremembering but I'm pretty sure that part of the agreement for holding indyref was that they couldn't have another for something like 25yrs.

That absolutely 100% was not in any agreement. No such timeline was agreed.

[Byrnee]

I think my problem here is I am evidently not making my point clearly enough, though Debs managed to get it. It's really not a difficult concept to understand. In response I have had people try to go off on tangents about Brexit or flat out make up things I have said and then accuse ME of arguing in bad faith.

The gereration thing is nonsense because no one ever made any such commitment so the length of a generation is meaningless in this context.

There is only one party that has been consistent on when a referendum should take place and what constitutes a mandate for it. Labour and the Tories maintain it's a voluntary union, that it is up to the people of Scotland, that a majority in Holyrood was a mandate and then just go back on all that when it no longer suits them.

In answer to your last question, absolutely, if a mandate for it is won in Holyrood.

So to be clear you would be happy with the genuine possibility of Scotland leaving and rejoining the Union every few years. This is why constant referendums of groundshaking proportions are a nonsensical idea. It's why Brexit was a terrible idea. Too many people voting on feeling and bigotry rather than well informed on data and realistic dangers posed.

[Elmo!]

So to be clear you would be happy with the genuine possibility of Scotland leaving and rejoining the Union every few years. This is why constant referendums of groundshaking proportions are a nonsensical idea. It's why Brexit was a terrible idea. Too many people voting on feeling and bigotry rather than well informed on data and realistic dangers posed.

I'm happy with having a referendum whenever a government is elected with that in their manifesto.

I have faith in the electorate - along with our PR system that makes a majority almost impossible - to make sensible choices.

Of course I do recognise it is a bit more difficult for the unionists in this regard because they would need rUK to agree to rejoin, but that's the nature of unions.

[Byrnee]

I'm happy with having a referendum whenever a government is elected with that in their manifesto.

I have faith in the electorate - along with our PR system that makes a majority almost impossible - to make sensible choices.

Of course I do recognise it is a bit more difficult for the unionists in this regard because they would need rUK to agree to rejoin, but that's the nature of unions.

Well then may I suggest we all move on as I find that idea (a country yo-yoing in and out of a union over decades) so preposterously complicated and dangerous that I see no point arguing it anymore. We're just too far apart in our opinions of rational actions for a country to take.

[Elmo!]

Well then may I suggest we all move on as I find that idea (a country yo-yoing in and out of a union over decades) so preposterously complicated and dangerous that I see no point arguing it anymore. We're just too far apart in our opinions of rational actions for a country to take.

I think the point is I find it exceedingly unlikely any such yo-yoing would actually happen.

But I am happy to move on, I don't want to derail this anymore. Maybe let people bicker over Labour for a while. 

[ljycb]

I think the point is I find it exceedingly unlikely any such yo-yoing would actually happen.

But I am happy to move on, I don't want to derail this anymore. Maybe let people bicker over Labour for a while. 

I don’t think you were derailing the thread at all! Discussions can veer off into a number of different directions and it’s good fun to catch up on.

[oldfordie]

It was actually the Better Together campaign who made the argument of voting no to independence if you want to remain in the EU, they argued Scotland are members of the EU due to being in the Union, if they gain independence then they will have to re-apply for membership of the EU.


After the Edinburgh Agreement was signed between the British Government and the Scottish Government on 15 October 2012, settling the question of the legality of the referendum, the key issues which dominated the public debate were the question of the currency in use in an independent Scotland, that of EU membership, but also defence issues, as well as the issue of oil and gas revenues. In this context, arguing the case for independence as creating a ‘partnership of equals’, while preserving open borders as well as free trade between Scotland and the other nations of the UK, allowed the Scottish Government to respond to accusations of separatism, and counter attacks from the pro-Union parties gathered in the ‘Better Together’ campaign, which centred on the economic and social risks independence entailed. The opponents of independence predicted indeed that Scotland would be hit by an economic recession due to the fact that the Scottish economy was tied to the UK economy, and that, as a result of independence, Scotland’s biggest market, namely the other nations of the UK, would become its first competitor. On the issue of EU membership, the pro-Union parties argued that an independent Scotland would have to re-apply for membership of the EU and sign a new accession treaty; therefore the best way for Scots to avoid the risk of isolation and the uncertainties regarding Scotland’s future in Europe, was to vote against independence for Scotland. Meanwhile, the Scottish Government argued that it would only need to negotiate transitional arrangements with its European partners to remain in the EU as an independent member-state.
https://journals.openedition.org/osb/5057

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I'm not talking about Brexit. They've moved the goalposts because they got the result they wanted in 2014.

Who was in power in 2014?

[TepidT2O]

[So… Howard Philips]

Those 18-29 year olds need to get out and vote otherwise their futures will be dictated by the 70+ age group.

Obvious, but true.

[killer-heels]

Amazing that one age group wields so much power, which is predominantly negative for this country.

[Dench57]

can't we just lock all the over 70s away on polling day

[PatriotScouser]

Those over 70s made sacrifices that has enabled everyone in this country to freely vote.

Those who can't be bothered to vote and don't, then they can't complain and I have zero sympathy for them.

I always vote because I believe it is my duty to do so because of the sacrifices made by those in the world wars. Even if you don't want to vote for a party. Spoiling your ballot is legitimate to show disapproval of the candidates standing whilst still taking part in the electoral process

[TheShanklyGates]

Those over 70s made sacrifices that has enabled everyone in this country to freely vote.

Those who can't be bothered to vote and don't, then they can't complain and I have zero sympathy for them.

I always vote because I believe it is my duty to do so because of the sacrifices made by those in the world wars. Even if you don't want to vote for a party. Spoiling your ballot is legitimate to show disapproval of the candidates standing whilst still taking part in the electoral process

Most over 70s are the children of those who served in the Second World War rather than those who served themselves.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

Those over 70s made sacrifices that has enabled everyone in this country to freely vote.

Those who can't be bothered to vote and don't, then they can't complain and I have zero sympathy for them.

I always vote because I believe it is my duty to do so because of the sacrifices made by those in the world wars. Even if you don't want to vote for a party. Spoiling your ballot is legitimate to show disapproval of the candidates standing whilst still taking part in the electoral process

Agree with most of that sentiment but worth considering that even somebody who was 16 in 1945 would be 93 now. So the vast majority of that over 70s demographic played no part in the war.

Edit - Jinx :p

[kavah]

I posted the link in the Brexit thread but the older demographic is the only one that still thinks Brexit is a good thing.
They are fucking mad - and they all get out and vote
I do feel sorry for the young. Labour should reduce the voting age to 16 if they get in.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Those 18-29 year olds need to get out and vote otherwise their futures will be dictated by the 70+ age group.

Obvious, but true.

They'll need to get photo ID before they do anything.

[Yorkykopite]

It's weird to think that OAPs were once a shoe-in for Labour. There weren't enough of them, that was the problem.

[Red-Soldier]

Those over 70s made sacrifices that has enabled everyone in this country to freely vote.

Those who can't be bothered to vote and don't, then they can't complain and I have zero sympathy for them.

I always vote because I believe it is my duty to do so because of the sacrifices made by those in the world wars. Even if you don't want to vote for a party. Spoiling your ballot is legitimate to show disapproval of the candidates standing whilst still taking part in the electoral process

Most OAPs are Baby Boomers: the only generation who has had it easier than both their parents, and their children.

[reddebs]

It's weird to think that OAPs were once a shoe-in for Labour. There weren't enough of them, that was the problem.

And that most of them would have benefitted from strong union representation during the 60s and 70s.

[Red-Soldier]

I wonder if that pattern will continue, once that generation moves on.

[Robinred]

Can we please refrain from generalisation?

I’m 75 in a couple of months. Recently rejoined the Labour Party. In my age group I may be an overall, slight, statistical anomaly, but that’s absolutely no reason to post some of the ageist tripe above.

[TepidT2O]

Can we please refrain from generalisation?

I’m 75 in a couple of months. Recently rejoined the Labour Party. In my age group I may be an overall, slight, statistical anomaly, but that’s absolutely no reason to post some of the ageist tripe above.

I blame you and no one else….

[reddebs]

Can we please refrain from generalisation?

I’m 75 in a couple of months. Recently rejoined the Labour Party. In my age group I may be an overall, slight, statistical anomaly, but that’s absolutely no reason to post some of the ageist tripe above.

Agreed mate.  Pisses me off no end too.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Labour should reduce the voting age to 16 if they get in.

Welsh Labour already have, not sure why British Labour haven't followed suit

[Machae]

Can't see Labour (assuming they win power) changing the status quo to be honest