Author Topic: Labour Thread  (Read 180406 times)

Offline Cali

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #920 on: November 28, 2022, 03:25:39 pm »
So presumably you are delighted and this will go a long way for you to back Starmer and Labour going forward since you didn't opine anything? :)

I think I’ve made my position on him and labour pretty clear and unless something drastic happens my position won’t change

Offline ianburns252

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #921 on: November 28, 2022, 03:26:05 pm »
What’s your point

The point would be that if you posted it to demonstrate that Starmer is just like the Tories then surely the same goes for Corbyn due to him also winning the award.

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #923 on: November 28, 2022, 03:33:37 pm »
It is the same shite on both threads - the anti Starmer lot spouting baseless, hateful, shite and the anti Corbyn lot giving it their best of "terrorist sympathiser" and so on.

Honestly, the only takeaway for me is that if you want to keep your head right then fuck social media right off as it is full of top class pricks.

Andy loves bringing it in here to stoke the fire  ;)

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #924 on: November 28, 2022, 03:34:28 pm »
What’s your point

What was yours posting the tweet in the first place?

EDIT: Jiminy beat me to it.

Offline ianburns252

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #925 on: November 28, 2022, 03:48:38 pm »
Andy loves bringing it in here to stoke the fire  ;)

To be fair, wasn't an Andy one in this instance!


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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #926 on: November 28, 2022, 04:05:50 pm »
I think I’ve made my position on him and labour pretty clear and unless something drastic happens my position won’t change

Well you just posted something with no words, so not sure what the point of that is supposed to be.

I presume that you were just it as a 'just one more thing' Columbo moment that won the internet, only to find out that the butler awarded Corbyn the silver screen award for Parliamentarian of the Year and he wandered off muttering 'I would have got away with it if he hadn't been for those pesky kids!"
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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #927 on: November 28, 2022, 04:24:08 pm »
Well you just posted something with no words, so not sure what the point of that is supposed to be.

I presume that you were just it as a 'just one more thing' Columbo moment that won the internet, only to find out that the butler awarded Corbyn the silver screen award for Parliamentarian of the Year and he wandered off muttering 'I would have got away with it if he hadn't been for those pesky kids!"
That's quote the melding of metaphors, Andy. I like it! ;D
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Offline Cali

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #928 on: November 28, 2022, 04:53:23 pm »
Well you just posted something with no words, so not sure what the point of that is supposed to be.

I presume that you were just it as a 'just one more thing' Columbo moment that won the internet, only to find out that the butler awarded Corbyn the silver screen award for Parliamentarian of the Year and he wandered off muttering 'I would have got away with it if he hadn't been for those pesky kids!"

Well seeing as tho I didn’t mention JC and he’s no longer a labour mp why would it be about him I’m just showing what starmer has won and who supports him who he’s friends with I’m not doing any whataboutery

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #929 on: November 28, 2022, 05:02:28 pm »
Well seeing as tho I didn’t mention JC and he’s no longer a labour mp why would it be about him I’m just showing what starmer has won and who supports him who he’s friends with I’m not doing any whataboutery

So what was your point?

That's he's exactly the same as Jeremy Corbyn as he's won the exact same award?
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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #930 on: November 28, 2022, 05:08:28 pm »
Maybe, given the Spectator's support of Brexit both before and after the Referendum, the award is a surreptitious recognition of both Corbyn's and Starmer's services to Brexit.

 :P
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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #931 on: November 28, 2022, 05:24:24 pm »
Well seeing as tho I didn’t mention JC and he’s no longer a labour mp why would it be about him I’m just showing what starmer has won and who supports him who he’s friends with I’m not doing any whataboutery

Fair enough. You didn't mention JC. In fact, you didn't mention anything at all. Just posted a link without comment, and you still haven't clarified why you posted the link with an explanation.
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Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #932 on: November 28, 2022, 05:25:37 pm »
Well seeing as tho I didn’t mention JC and he’s no longer a labour mp why would it be about him I’m just showing what starmer has won and who supports him who he’s friends with I’m not doing any whataboutery
And what was your point?

What was the subtext to your link? For it surely was not chosen at random.

Stop being a snivelling little weakling and spit out your point.
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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #933 on: November 28, 2022, 05:47:20 pm »
Maybe, given the Spectator's support of Brexit both before and after the Referendum, the award is a surreptitious recognition of both Corbyn's and Starmer's services to Brexit.

 :P

I think it's likely they do it as a jolly jape.

Interesting that Starmer said “I don’t expect to be endorsed by The Spectator at the next election, but I look forward to disagreeing in the battle of ideas.”


I've said before that I'm sick of all this hysterical 'publicity led' politics. I hanker for the days where people can talk to each other and not get angry or pissed off*** and politics gets back to what a civillised country should be able to manage rather than a tin-pot shithole full of self-serving dickheads that have no interest in their own country


*** I'm well aware that I get pissed off and angry far too much
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

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Offline ianburns252

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #934 on: November 28, 2022, 06:04:52 pm »
I think it's likely they do it as a jolly jape.

Interesting that Starmer said “I don’t expect to be endorsed by The Spectator at the next election, but I look forward to disagreeing in the battle of ideas.”


I've said before that I'm sick of all this hysterical 'publicity led' politics. I hanker for the days where people can talk to each other and not get angry or pissed off*** and politics gets back to what a civillised country should be able to manage rather than a tin-pot shithole full of self-serving dickheads that have no interest in their own country


*** I'm well aware that I get pissed off and angry far too much

You and me both! I know people here have had family rifts over politics and it is truly sad that politics can drive many that far apart

Starmer's comment sounds like that kind of approach I'd like - reasoned disagreement where they aren't so close they are having sleep overs and pillow fights but the parties involved can respect each other such that they can have a pint, shoot the shit, and shake hands


Offline reddebs

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #935 on: November 28, 2022, 06:26:44 pm »
I think I’ve made my position on him and labour pretty clear and unless something drastic happens my position won’t change

Can you explain what those drastic changes might be please?

Yes you have made your position clear that you won't vote, that you don't feel Starmer is even a labour politician and his and the parties politics don't go far enough but its not helpful to discussion to just post a link with no comment and pretty much refuse to engage in anything further.


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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #936 on: November 28, 2022, 07:47:31 pm »

No.

They have the same priorities. They just fundamentally believe that following the sort of policies that the last Labour government, for instance, don't make anything like enough of a difference. Not least in terms of wealth redistribution and worker/trade union rights.
The difference in priorities is the problem. the priority for the left is getting fundamental economic change, they attack anyone inside Labour for not supporting those views. they view the Last Labour government as no better or a begrudgingly slightly better than the Torys yet tear into the Torys when the Torys chop vital services, who do they think brought in those vital efficient services . Thatchers Torys?
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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #937 on: November 28, 2022, 08:29:13 pm »

One thing that does make me smile wryly is people on the right of the Labour Party being angry with voters who are leftist not voting for Labour when Labour aren't following any of the leftist policy that they believe in. But then not being nearly as condemnatory about voters who are more centrist not voting for a Corbyn-led Labour Party (indeed, sometimes being rather understanding about people not wanting a Corbyn-led government)

Perhaps, but I think one significant difference is that very few people believed that Labour could win a general election under Corbyn (I mean people who weren't already dazzled by, or smitten with, the fella). He was simply carrying too much weird baggage. Therefore there was something a bit academic about the whole question of where Labour was going.
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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #938 on: November 28, 2022, 08:35:48 pm »
Well seeing as tho I didn’t mention JC and he’s no longer a labour mp why would it be about him I’m just showing what starmer has won and who supports him who he’s friends with I’m not doing any whataboutery

As a Labour party member I think it's a very good thing that Starmer won the award, simply because it's indicative. I can remember the run-up to the great Labour victory of 1997 and similar things were happening to Tony Blair.

On the other hand it was a very bad thing when Corbyn won the same award because it's never good to see a Right-Wing mag like the Spectator taking the piss out of the Labour party. I also remember quite a few Spectator journos saying they'd joined the Labour party for three quid in order to vote Corbyn in as leader.

What's your take on the thing you posted?
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Offline Nobby Reserve

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #939 on: November 28, 2022, 09:32:43 pm »
The difference in priorities is the problem. the priority for the left is getting fundamental economic change, they attack anyone inside Labour for not supporting those views.

Because they believe - as do I - that you cannot fundamentally change society for the better, particularly for those at the bottom end of the financial scale, without making fundamental change to the socio-economic model we follow.

I'm not talking about revolution to bring the methods of production into public ownership. Just smaller things like changes to the tax system to massively cut down on asset-hiding and tax dodging; lifting restrictions on trade unions that equals things up with exploitative employers who very much have thevwhip hand; embarking on a massive program of social housing building to subvert the private rental market; banning any company that has donated to a political party (or having any shareholder owning 10% or more donating) from being awarded any government/public sector contract; ending outsourcing of public sector jobs and systematically bringing back into the public service any functions previously outsourced.

That kind of thing.

Not earth-shattering. But would make a huge difference. Real levelling-up by targeting the tax-dodgers, the corporations, the shysters and spuvs, etc.
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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #940 on: November 28, 2022, 09:39:35 pm »
Because they believe - as do I - that you cannot fundamentally change society for the better, particularly for those at the bottom end of the financial scale, without making fundamental change to the socio-economic model we follow.

I'm not talking about revolution to bring the methods of production into public ownership. Just smaller things like changes to the tax system to massively cut down on asset-hiding and tax dodging; lifting restrictions on trade unions that equals things up with exploitative employers who very much have thevwhip hand; embarking on a massive program of social housing building to subvert the private rental market; banning any company that has donated to a political party (or having any shareholder owning 10% or more donating) from being awarded any government/public sector contract; ending outsourcing of public sector jobs and systematically bringing back into the public service any functions previously outsourced.

That kind of thing.

Not earth-shattering. But would make a huge difference. Real levelling-up by targeting the tax-dodgers, the corporations, the shysters and spuvs, etc.

Can’t argue with any of that. Add to that replacing the House of Lords and really tighten up on MPs ‘outside interests’.

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #941 on: November 28, 2022, 10:17:39 pm »
Because they believe - as do I - that you cannot fundamentally change society for the better, particularly for those at the bottom end of the financial scale, without making fundamental change to the socio-economic model we follow.

I'm not talking about revolution to bring the methods of production into public ownership. Just smaller things like changes to the tax system to massively cut down on asset-hiding and tax dodging; lifting restrictions on trade unions that equals things up with exploitative employers who very much have thevwhip hand; embarking on a massive program of social housing building to subvert the private rental market; banning any company that has donated to a political party (or having any shareholder owning 10% or more donating) from being awarded any government/public sector contract; ending outsourcing of public sector jobs and systematically bringing back into the public service any functions previously outsourced.

That kind of thing.

Not earth-shattering. But would make a huge difference. Real levelling-up by targeting the tax-dodgers, the corporations, the shysters and spuvs, etc.


Sounds good, but every journey starts with a single step. You have to be elected and you have to be in power to take those first steps.

Rome wasn't built in a day and to change all that would take a while.

But the first step is to step the endless continual damage that the Tories are doing. Every day they are in power is another day needed to reverse their carnage.
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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #942 on: November 28, 2022, 10:33:03 pm »
Sounds good, but every journey starts with a single step. You have to be elected and you have to be in power to take those first steps.

Rome wasn't built in a day and to change all that would take a while.

But the first step is to step the endless continual damage that the Tories are doing. Every day they are in power is another day needed to reverse their carnage.

I would agree that the first step is to get elected.

But I do think it is worth considering how you get elected, and how that might affect what you can do once you get in to power. Labour have a real opportunity here, and if they are too tame, or tack too much to the centre, it might get them a bigger majority, but possibly at the cost of not having things in their manifesto - and therefore not having a mandate - for things that they could have got if they had tried. It also risks moving the overton window to the right by normalising things that wouldn't previously have been xonaidered acceptable on the left. I'm not really talking about any specific policy here, just the general principle.

If you decide to leave it for the second term, you risk losing all momemtum and the public sentiment swinging back to the Tories.

It's a delicate balance of course, but the Tories are on the rocks here, and being too timid could see Labour throwing away the best chance in decades of getting the sort of policies Nobby mentions done.

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #943 on: November 28, 2022, 11:04:32 pm »
Because they believe - as do I - that you cannot fundamentally change society for the better, particularly for those at the bottom end of the financial scale, without making fundamental change to the socio-economic model we follow.

I'm not talking about revolution to bring the methods of production into public ownership. Just smaller things like changes to the tax system to massively cut down on asset-hiding and tax dodging; lifting restrictions on trade unions that equals things up with exploitative employers who very much have thevwhip hand; embarking on a massive program of social housing building to subvert the private rental market; banning any company that has donated to a political party (or having any shareholder owning 10% or more donating) from being awarded any government/public sector contract; ending outsourcing of public sector jobs and systematically bringing back into the public service any functions previously outsourced.

That kind of thing.

Not earth-shattering. But would make a huge difference. Real levelling-up by targeting the tax-dodgers, the corporations, the shysters and spuvs, etc.
Well the economic downturn has changed everything recently but I think any Labour government can definitely change lives for the better at the bottom end of the Fianacial scale without fundamental change,  I wouldn't class a lot of the stuff you want as something the center left oppose, does anyone on here oppose change to our tax system to clamp down on all the tax dodgers, ?
I would take the donations to a party further and hammer the companys who
 lobby as well as the MPs. services solved problems, sometimes you have to turn to the private sector to solve those problems but things can get out of hand but I still give them credit for wanting to solve those problems,
We got to where we are today on trade union laws because the Torys won the publics blessing to hammer the unions, there's no point in attacking Labour for not ripping up those laws as it wouldn't have gone down well with the public.
I know I felt those anti trade union laws personally in my pocket in a big way so I also wanted them torn up but I understood why Labour couldn't do it, they would have been hammered by the Torys.
Maybe things will change in years to come but we will never go back to the militant years, I hope not anyway. the RMT dispute has proved what ive always argued, we shouldn't automatically lay the blame on strikers for industrial action, management acting in bad faith also cause strikes. been arguing this for decades and nice to see people finally noticing. maybe the public will be more sympathetic to unions now but I doubt if they will like to hear news of Labour protecting wild cat strikes etc.
Ive no idea if the next Labour government will be able to build more social housing on a large scale, the benefits of changing the tax system can only go so far, we shall see but warnings were given back in 2016-2019, how things would change for the worse fundamentally, it's happened so I think it's more about clawing back what we have lost rather than thinking any Labour government left or center left can make things good again in a few years.
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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #944 on: November 29, 2022, 12:14:07 am »
I would agree that the first step is to get elected.

But I do think it is worth considering how you get elected, and how that might affect what you can do once you get in to power. Labour have a real opportunity here, and if they are too tame, or tack too much to the centre, it might get them a bigger majority, but possibly at the cost of not having things in their manifesto - and therefore not having a mandate - for things that they could have got if they had tried. It also risks moving the overton window to the right by normalising things that wouldn't previously have been xonaidered acceptable on the left. I'm not really talking about any specific policy here, just the general principle.

If you decide to leave it for the second term, you risk losing all momemtum and the public sentiment swinging back to the Tories.

It's a delicate balance of course, but the Tories are on the rocks here, and being too timid could see Labour throwing away the best chance in decades of getting the sort of policies Nobby mentions done.

That is certainly worth considering.

But to get into power, they need enough votes and if they go too 'far' with socialist goals then they could very easily alienate a whole swathe of the UK population - who have proven time and time again that they aren't socialist as a whole and are more likely to be conservative (At least with a small c)

Wouldn't take much for the right-wing elements to be harping about the usual shite they harp on about when someone has the cheek to suggest we could do something good for the country and something good for the people of the country where the super rich 'lose out'
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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #945 on: November 29, 2022, 06:43:24 am »
More news about the charitable status of private schools to be scrapped under Labour. Was this announced yesterday or something. Great to see anyway.

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #946 on: November 29, 2022, 07:01:24 am »
More news about the charitable status of private schools to be scrapped under Labour. Was this announced yesterday or something. Great to see anyway.
Ignore all the stories of doom and woe by the way folks…

Average private school fees are now twice the income average state schools receive per pupil.

This gap has grown and grown since 2010

And the Tory rags tell me it will lead to chaos?

Well when you look in more detail, it won’t.

For a start, they will probably be able to claim 5% back through VAT clawback, and are they really saying they can’t save 5% after a decade and a half where private fees have gone through the roof?

In the state sector we call them efficiency savings…

So, that leaves 10% for parents to find.  If  pay £15k a year, are people really saying they can’t afford £16500? All this rubbish about aspiring families… they are affluent families… not all absolutely loaded I do appreciate that, but affluent non the less.
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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #947 on: November 29, 2022, 08:08:58 am »
The idea that Labour are too cautious and this won't lead to long term consequential change for the country is just not rooted in reality. Barring military coups can you think of an election where a party won by a large enough margin and changed the socio-economic foundation of a country within a term? The closest I can think of is Trump who promised root and branch changes to everything and actually achieved barely anything save some tax cuts for the richest.

Labour would have to get their foot in the door and then gradually make the changes needed.

Imagine if in 2010 the Tory manifesto was for the situation in 2022. NHS on its knees, crime rising, the economy is complete turmoil, a succession of ill-equipped leaders, the disastrous Brexit.

The country has changed dramatically for the worse for most people and it all started with that coalition government being formed in the rose garden press conference in Number 10.

Labour could make equally dramatic changes in the direction of saving the NHS, funding for public services, improved tax systems that target the richest, but would need years of power to do so. The 2019 manifesto was apparently too radical for this country. But say Labour get in and create GB energy, and set us on a path to Net Zero in 2030. Say they begin to stop the rot. The 2029 election then gives them the power from the public seeing these changes to trust them on more lasting changes to the infrastructure of the country.

But people have always and will always fear change that is too fast and too radical. They need to see proof of concept first. 1997 Labour proved they could govern, effectively and repair years of damage from the Tories. They did so and won two more terms. The same can be done again but as others have pointed out it all starts with the first step.

The idea that you wouldn't vote for them because it's not enough yet is effectively to sign over your vote to the Tories. So you have to ask what the effects of another 5 years of Tory rule would look like comparatively. If that's the choice you want to make, and your argument is that Labour aren't doing enough, I don't know what could possibly change your mind.
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At The End Of The Storm I

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #948 on: November 29, 2022, 08:29:00 am »
Ignore all the stories of doom and woe by the way folks…

Average private school fees are now twice the income average state schools receive per pupil.

This gap has grown and grown since 2010

And the Tory rags tell me it will lead to chaos?

Well when you look in more detail, it won’t.

For a start, they will probably be able to claim 5% back through VAT clawback, and are they really saying they can’t save 5% after a decade and a half where private fees have gone through the roof?

In the state sector we call them efficiency savings…

So, that leaves 10% for parents to find.  If  pay £15k a year, are people really saying they can’t afford £16500? All this rubbish about aspiring families… they are affluent families… not all absolutely loaded I do appreciate that, but affluent non the less.

This is a great policy from Labour. I hope Starmer goes through with it. I think it will affect private schools more than you say because it is part of a bigger squeeze.

Last week the top private schools were whining about reduced Oxford admissions. Too many state school students were getting places etc. This welcome trend will increase even more under a Labour government for the simple reason that state schools - as always - will get better under an administration which actually supports them. There will come a point - a tipping point hopefully - where enough parents conclude that the game is no longer worth the candle and that rising fees together with reduced Oxbridge admissions mean that a private education for their kids becomes untenable.
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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #949 on: November 29, 2022, 08:39:43 am »
The country has changed dramatically for the worse for most people and it all started with that coalition government being formed in the rose garden press conference in Number 10.
So long as a Government can keep convincing the electorate to keep returning them, it is much, MUCH easier to totally fuck up the economy of a country than it is to build something startlingly better. I think the nearest example of this in my lifetime was the Blair Government. And the only example of a true step change in the UK economy and how it is organised (within living memory, at least) was immediately after WWII.

For the UK to get out of this hole, it does not require a revolution in thinking. It does, however, require that we return to the status quo before the Tories took over in 2010. The problem is that there is still not talk of doing what is necessary: for the UK to return to alignment with the SM and CU (let alone, rejoin the EU). So long as the UK remains outside of those two systems, the economy is fucked.
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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #950 on: November 29, 2022, 09:44:46 am »
The idea that Labour are too cautious and this won't lead to long term consequential change for the country is just not rooted in reality. Barring military coups can you think of an election where a party won by a large enough margin and changed the socio-economic foundation of a country within a term? The closest I can think of is Trump who promised root and branch changes to everything and actually achieved barely anything save some tax cuts for the richest.

Labour would have to get their foot in the door and then gradually make the changes needed.

Imagine if in 2010 the Tory manifesto was for the situation in 2022. NHS on its knees, crime rising, the economy is complete turmoil, a succession of ill-equipped leaders, the disastrous Brexit.

The country has changed dramatically for the worse for most people and it all started with that coalition government being formed in the rose garden press conference in Number 10.

Labour could make equally dramatic changes in the direction of saving the NHS, funding for public services, improved tax systems that target the richest, but would need years of power to do so. The 2019 manifesto was apparently too radical for this country. But say Labour get in and create GB energy, and set us on a path to Net Zero in 2030. Say they begin to stop the rot. The 2029 election then gives them the power from the public seeing these changes to trust them on more lasting changes to the infrastructure of the country.

But people have always and will always fear change that is too fast and too radical. They need to see proof of concept first. 1997 Labour proved they could govern, effectively and repair years of damage from the Tories. They did so and won two more terms. The same can be done again but as others have pointed out it all starts with the first step.

The idea that you wouldn't vote for them because it's not enough yet is effectively to sign over your vote to the Tories. So you have to ask what the effects of another 5 years of Tory rule would look like comparatively. If that's the choice you want to make, and your argument is that Labour aren't doing enough, I don't know what could possibly change your mind.

Honestly, when it comes down to the next general election, the amount of people who don’t vote for Labour for far left reasons is going to be so minuscule that we are going to wonder why it ever warranted this much discussion. And of those who do, the majority will be concentrated in Labour safe seats like Liverpool where there will be no impact on Labour’s chances. Come the next general election, most will just want the Tories gone, and even those who are currently disenchanted with Labour under Starmer will probably just vote in the best way to rid the Tories because it will be symbolic as much anything. Voting the Tories out is going to feel so good.

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #951 on: November 29, 2022, 09:53:54 am »
This is a great policy from Labour. I hope Starmer goes through with it. I think it will affect private schools more than you say because it is part of a bigger squeeze.

Last week the top private schools were whining about reduced Oxford admissions. Too many state school students were getting places etc. This welcome trend will increase even more under a Labour government for the simple reason that state schools - as always - will get better under an administration which actually supports them. There will come a point - a tipping point hopefully - where enough parents conclude that the game is no longer worth the candle and that rising fees together with reduced Oxbridge admissions mean that a private education for their kids becomes untenable.
Yes, my heart bleeds for them.

But I don’t think it will impact that much. Private education funding has risen at well above inflation and far far quicker than state school funding.
They have soooo much fat they could trim off that I really don’t see the issue.

For example, pre covid, I visited Eton. They give lots of free stuff to local schools (if you know the right people) and let you attend loads of events they host (managed to swerve the Farrage one though!) . Now I went to visit their careers team. It’s was 7 or 8 strong (all really lovely and normal people, some of whom had sent kids to my school) . That’s  bigger than the entire admin staff for my schoo not far away and a similar size. Incredible really, they had that many people to do what I had an hour a week set aside for.

Now, an extreme example maybe, but an example of where private schools have simply not had to worry about costs or the financial crisis and have just carried on regardless.  If there isn’t really quite a lot of far to trim I would be astonished. Even ‘cheaper’ private schools are getting over twice the funding per pupil of a state school. Don’t let them tell you tales of hardship
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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #952 on: November 29, 2022, 10:52:06 am »
Yes, my heart bleeds for them.

But I don’t think it will impact that much. Private education funding has risen at well above inflation and far far quicker than state school funding.
They have soooo much fat they could trim off that I really don’t see the issue.

For example, pre covid, I visited Eton. They give lots of free stuff to local schools (if you know the right people) and let you attend loads of events they host (managed to swerve the Farrage one though!) . Now I went to visit their careers team. It’s was 7 or 8 strong (all really lovely and normal people, some of whom had sent kids to my school) . That’s  bigger than the entire admin staff for my schoo not far away and a similar size. Incredible really, they had that many people to do what I had an hour a week set aside for.

Now, an extreme example maybe, but an example of where private schools have simply not had to worry about costs or the financial crisis and have just carried on regardless.  If there isn’t really quite a lot of far to trim I would be astonished. Even ‘cheaper’ private schools are getting over twice the funding per pupil of a state school. Don’t let them tell you tales of hardship

Interesting.

Eton and probably Winchester and a couple of others would survive a nuclear holocaust. But I'm thinking of all the others.

I think I said once before that the great chance was missed in 1945 when a radical Labour government left education basically untouched - simply adopting the 1944 Education act of the Coalition government. The private schools, in particular, remained completely untouched by the greatest socialist government ever seen (outside Scandinavia). What a wasted opportunity. Practically all of them - bar Eton, Harrow and Winchester - were broke because of the war and would have loved to have had their debts cleared by a state buy-out. Sadly, Labour passed on that, preferring to buy the hospitals, railways and coal-mines instead. By the mid-1950s those private schools had re-established their finances and their power.

And to pile irony on irony one of the main engines behind their resurgence was Labour's separate failure to establish comprehensive schools after the war, preferring the 1944 model of the 11-plus, grammars and secondary moderns. It was the middle-class fear that little Edward would fail his 11-plus and end up in the secondary modern that got them saving all their pennies and sending him to a minor private school instead. If comprehensives had existed that probably wouldn't have happened.

Starmer needs to seize the opportunity next time round. Eton will survive, I know it will. But the galaxy around it might well implode. And that would be a good thing.
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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #953 on: November 29, 2022, 11:23:54 am »
I wouldn't class a lot of the stuff you want as something the center left oppose, does anyone on here oppose change to our tax system to clamp down on all the tax dodgers, ?

Absolutely agree. There won't be many in the PLP who oppose such policy in principle, either. Like I said, I'm not that far left.

The problem is the PArty not being bold enough to implement such policy in an effective way - knowing that you're going to piss off quite a few people with vested interests and some political influence.

One thing I find frustrating about the Blair government is that they had some great ideas, along with some brilliant minds who had more left-leaning backgrounds (Robin Cook, Margaret Beckett, Jack Cunningham, etc). Yet they backed away from a lot of more left-leaning policy that had been expected to happen. I get that they wanted to make sure they were not going to be a one-term government and wanted to go slowly-slowly. But then Blair and his Prty allies went all-in on the Iraq invasion, knowing that a majority of people opposed it - many quite strongly (1m people marching against it was astonishing).

Of all the policy hills to risk dying on, that it was Iraq (using lies and misinformation in the 'dodgy dossier' to achieve a Parliamentary approval) sticks in the craw.


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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #954 on: November 29, 2022, 12:36:01 pm »
Yes, my heart bleeds for them.

But I don’t think it will impact that much. Private education funding has risen at well above inflation and far far quicker than state school funding.
They have soooo much fat they could trim off that I really don’t see the issue.

For example, pre covid, I visited Eton. They give lots of free stuff to local schools (if you know the right people) and let you attend loads of events they host (managed to swerve the Farrage one though!) . Now I went to visit their careers team. It’s was 7 or 8 strong (all really lovely and normal people, some of whom had sent kids to my school) . That’s  bigger than the entire admin staff for my schoo not far away and a similar size. Incredible really, they had that many people to do what I had an hour a week set aside for.

Now, an extreme example maybe, but an example of where private schools have simply not had to worry about costs or the financial crisis and have just carried on regardless.  If there isn’t really quite a lot of far to trim I would be astonished. Even ‘cheaper’ private schools are getting over twice the funding per pupil of a state school. Don’t let them tell you tales of hardship
It's undoubtedly a good policy by Labour and Starmer.  There will be disproportionate attention given to those negatively impacted by the policy (the ~7% of children that are privately educated) but it's a long overdue change.  The charitable contributions from private schools are tenuous at best, especially since it was decided that the best people to decide what was appropriate would be the trustees of the charity (/private school).

When I was in my final year at secondary (sixth form) we were donated the second hand cricket kit from the nearby privately-funded grammar school.  Nothing particularly against that as even being a bit tatty around the edges it was still far superior than the hopeless equipment we had before.  It was staged as a horrible PR exercise though and we had to play them in a match after a condescending ceremony to hand over the equipment and our captain's emotionless reading of a grovelling script.  We didn't even get to bloody their nose on the pitch as we were rubbish at cricket even by state school standards and they were effectively a feeder for the county championship side.  Anyway, it probably ticked a box for their charitable contribution and I'm sure there's a photo up in that school somewhere of us oiks in their cast offs.

On a broader point, everyone is quite well aware of the poor state the UK's public finances are in.  Having a red or blue government won't alter that.  Where Labour need to shine is where the Tories shied away and that's making it an issue that is the responsibility of everyone in the UK.  The Tories looked after their own and, given that we've had 12 years of that over-protection, I think Labour would be well backed publicly if they aggressively went after those previously sheltered from "austerity".

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #955 on: November 29, 2022, 12:52:43 pm »
It's undoubtedly a good policy by Labour and Starmer.  There will be disproportionate attention given to those negatively impacted by the policy (the ~7% of children that are privately educated) but it's a long overdue change.  The charitable contributions from private schools are tenuous at best, especially since it was decided that the best people to decide what was appropriate would be the trustees of the charity (/private school).

When I was in my final year at secondary (sixth form) we were donated the second hand cricket kit from the nearby privately-funded grammar school.  Nothing particularly against that as even being a bit tatty around the edges it was still far superior than the hopeless equipment we had before.  It was staged as a horrible PR exercise though and we had to play them in a match after a condescending ceremony to hand over the equipment and our captain's emotionless reading of a grovelling script.  We didn't even get to bloody their nose on the pitch as we were rubbish at cricket even by state school standards and they were effectively a feeder for the county championship side.  Anyway, it probably ticked a box for their charitable contribution and I'm sure there's a photo up in that school somewhere of us oiks in their cast offs.

On a broader point, everyone is quite well aware of the poor state the UK's public finances are in.  Having a red or blue government won't alter that.  Where Labour need to shine is where the Tories shied away and that's making it an issue that is the responsibility of everyone in the UK.  The Tories looked after their own and, given that we've had 12 years of that over-protection, I think Labour would be well backed publicly if they aggressively went after those previously sheltered from "austerity".

That's probably not going to happen though as the main group that has been protected from the direct impact of austerity, is the pensioner grouping and there are just too many of them, although from a brutally pragmatic political point of view if they remain as steadfastly Tory voting as they are now, then Labour probably doesn't have much to lose.

There is a bigger issue coming down the line which is that with an aging population and public services in a terrible state its not really feasible to claim that everything can be fixed and just the rich will pay, everyone is going to end up paying significantly more as time goes on. Although I imagine everyone stays clear of that in an election campaign


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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #956 on: November 29, 2022, 12:58:07 pm »
Absolutely agree. There won't be many in the PLP who oppose such policy in principle, either. Like I said, I'm not that far left.

The problem is the PArty not being bold enough to implement such policy in an effective way - knowing that you're going to piss off quite a few people with vested interests and some political influence.

One thing I find frustrating about the Blair government is that they had some great ideas, along with some brilliant minds who had more left-leaning backgrounds (Robin Cook, Margaret Beckett, Jack Cunningham, etc). Yet they backed away from a lot of more left-leaning policy that had been expected to happen. I get that they wanted to make sure they were not going to be a one-term government and wanted to go slowly-slowly. But then Blair and his Prty allies went all-in on the Iraq invasion, knowing that a majority of people opposed it - many quite strongly (1m people marching against it was astonishing).

Of all the policy hills to risk dying on, that it was Iraq (using lies and misinformation in the 'dodgy dossier' to achieve a Parliamentary approval) sticks in the craw.
They were the left wing examples you gave for the left attacking the center left which is why I said I don't think the center left oppose most of these policys.
Call it the Overton window or whatever but the country's attitude towards certain policys was different back in Blairs term.  am pleasantly surprised at the publics support for strikers trying to protect themselves from inflation, the Torys must be horrified as they looked back at the Winter of Discontent which happened under similar circumstances and assumed public outrage would lay the blame on Labour.
That was the reasoning behind not rowing back trade union laws. same with clamping down on welfare etc, how this all came about is a long story but credit where credits due. the Unions and the Labour party refused to walk into the traps of the past
Theres also more support for PR+ the Lords. it suddenly become the Bees knees for many people. Labour will have to be careful though, could end up costing a election. my point really is Labour will not be able to make all the change people want, there's so much change needed it's a impossible job so am sure many will be disappointed, will people give them a break and understand change needs the publics backing, I doubt it.
Labour will inherit massive problems that will take many years to sort out, they will always have to weigh up if some of the policys changes could cost elections.
I think any left wing government would also weigh up the consequences of changing things without the publics support as well, am not talking Brexit but I saw them row back on other left wing aims when they were in the hot seat, I understood the position they were in and had no problem with it, they are now back to the luxury of being able to call for big change without the responsibility of being in the hot seat and losing power which I haven't got much respect for.
I have my own opinions on Iraq, am sure many would disagree with them and that's fair enough. it certainly never made me stop voting Labour.
 
« Last Edit: November 29, 2022, 01:02:14 pm by oldfordie »
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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #957 on: November 29, 2022, 02:53:01 pm »
That's probably not going to happen though as the main group that has been protected from the direct impact of austerity, is the pensioner grouping and there are just too many of them, although from a brutally pragmatic political point of view if they remain as steadfastly Tory voting as they are now, then Labour probably doesn't have much to lose.

There is a bigger issue coming down the line which is that with an aging population and public services in a terrible state its not really feasible to claim that everything can be fixed and just the rich will pay, everyone is going to end up paying significantly more as time goes on. Although I imagine everyone stays clear of that in an election campaign
Even just that would be an improvement on the past 12 years.  Having austerity forced upon people in the forms of eroding benefits and cutting public services whilst having a 60%+ increase in millionaires (https://www.statista.com/statistics/434012/population-of-dollar-millionaires-in-the-united-kingdom-uk/) is a shameful legacy.

I think you're right that a historic righting of the wrongs won't happen, or at least not to the extent it should.  Once the opportunities to tax at source have been missed it seems very difficult - politically and technically - to retrospectively resolve.

Andrew Dilnot bemoaning that his recommended social care cap has been delayed for two years is living in la la land (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/nov/17/architect-of-tory-social-care-cap-plans-puzzled-hunt-two-year-delay-autumn-statement-dilnot-chancellor-manifesto).  That was Hunt pretty much scrapping the reforms without actually having the courage to scrap them.  As you allude to, the electioneering is already under way and nobody is going to want to call such things out.  I'm not saying it should be one or the other or if they're in any way financially comparable but if people were offered the choice of the pension triple lock or the social care cap I expect most would want the triple lock as we're not really a country that values long-term thinking.

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #958 on: November 29, 2022, 04:45:18 pm »
A piece from Owen Jones in the Gruniad

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/nov/29/labour-leadership-internal-candidates-democracy-prospective-mps

Britain will almost certainly have a Labour government in two years’ time: you have the Tories’ unprecedented self-immolation to thank for that. Debating, then, how Rishi Sunak’s successors will govern is a democratic imperative. To some of Keir Starmer’s more zealous supporters, scrutinising the opposition is an act of treachery that simply makes a Tory government more likely. Welcome to “Schrödinger’s left”: where the left of the party is simultaneously so irrelevant and toxic that it must be marginalised, but so powerful it can help determine the result of general elections.

In his pitch for the Labour leadership, Starmer promised that under his watch the party would be a “broad church”, and that he would restore trust in Labour through “unity”. To underline that this wasn’t just empty rhetoric, he said that the selection of Labour candidates “needs to be more democratic and we should end NEC impositions of candidates. Local party members should select their candidates for every election.” To paraphrase Karl Marx, all that is a Starmer promise melts into air: but this particular issue has political consequences that go far beyond internal Labour politics.

This week, the former shadow chancellor John McDonnell wrote to Starmer about what he described as “mounting allegations about abuse and malpractice” during candidate selections – allegations that he said had already been raised with Starmer by multiple MPs. The allegations, he wrote, “are that selection procedures are being manipulated to prevent candidates being selected who are on the left, centre left or who may prevent a favoured candidate from having a clear run for a seat”. They include allegations that members did not receive the link to join online nomination meetings or were held in waiting rooms on Zoom until votes had been cast, and that some candidates were given privileged access to lists of members’ contact details in advance of others. He also claims that some candidates on the left were ruled out for “bizarre reasons”.

These allegations cannot easily be dismissed as simply the gripes of leftwingers sulking over defeat. Read the verdict of the former Channel 4 News stalwart Michael Crick, who argued that “it is increasingly clear that Labour’s election processes are unfair, and verge on corrupt,” adding that he also believed favoured candidates were given membership lists “long before others do, and so [could] start canvassing much sooner”.

Consider the case of 31-year-old Lauren Townsend, who had hoped to become the prospective candidate for Milton Keynes North. Here is exactly the sort of would-be MP the Labour party should be proud to encourage. Raised mostly by her single mother in the city, attending a local comprehensive in special measures, she came to the labour movement by working and organising in TGI Fridays. When management abruptly declared that some of their tips would be confiscated, Townsend led the struggle, recruiting 250 waiting and bar staff, and taking several days of strikes. They won. When local Labour councillors attending the pickets inspired Townsend to join the party, she went through a “baptism of fire”: becoming vice-chair of her local party, unseating a Tory in a council election, then being asked to join the council’s cabinet because of her obvious abilities. But frustrated about how councillors had their hands tied by decisions made at a national level, she decided to stand for parliament.

Union after union backed her, including Unison – far from diehard lefties. But after a regional Labour officer rang a senior council colleague to ask if Townsend could win, the party sent her a letter outlining concerns about her candidacy. After subjecting her to what she regarded as a hostile interview – including, she says, being shouted at – Townsend was sent a letter telling her she would not be longlisted.

Eventually, she was sent a dossier detailing social media activity that was said to preclude her from standing. Laughable doesn’t cover it: an entire section was dedicated to her “liking” tweets by people representing other parties, including Nicola Sturgeon expressing relief at a negative Covid test and a picture of a man pretending to cry over Matt Hancock’s resignation – because he happened to be a member of a small leftwing party. While the dossier included tweets critical of the Labour leadership – such as congratulating former shadow cabinet member Andy McDonald for his 2021 resignation over the party’s failure to back a higher minimum wage – there was no such ban on prospective candidates critical of Keir Starmer’s predecessor before 2019. Is Labour now a party in which criticism of the leader is forbidden? Where does this leave Starmer’s leadership pledge, I ask Townsend? “Well, it’s not a broad church, is it?” (When these, and the allegations made by McDonnell, were put to the Labour party, it said: “Selection processes for Labour party parliamentary candidates are properly administered in full accordance with procedures set by the national executive committee (NEC).” It added that the party doesn’t comment on individual cases.)

Consider, too, Maurice Mcleod, a black veteran anti-racism activist, journalist and Labour councillor. The chronic underrepresentation of black men in the parliamentary Labour party has been acknowledged from all sides, and Mcleod had a convincing shot at succeeding Harriet Harman in Camberwell & Peckham. Again, his liking of tweets by members of other parties – this time by the Green MP Caroline Lucas – was raised; but he was blocked partly because he mistakenly didn’t attend a vote on the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition on antisemitism in 2018, despite making it clear in the selection interview that he believed the debate was settled.

It would be harder to argue that these requirements were factional if they were applied to everyone equally. Yet Darren Rodwell, a white council leader, has been selected to stand for Labour in Barking & Dagenham, despite once joking at a Black History Month event that he had “the worst possible tan for a black man”, adding: “I have the passion and the rhythm of the African and the Caribbean. I used to do swing dance, because I used to love jiggling about.” This candidate – supportive of the party leadership – was not barred.

Now, McDonnell has called for Starmer to appoint an independent organisation to scrutinise party selections, and for Martin Forde – the lawyer who recently issued a report into Labour’s abusive political culture – to investigate alleged abuse.

But there is a wider point here, too. Millions of Britons do support public ownership of utilities, a wealth tax and workers taking strike action – the platform, it must be said, Starmer himself stood on in the leadership election, and that these leftwing candidates represent. Must their values be excluded from British politics, from frontline Labour politics? And if this is the attitude of the Labour leadership towards its party’s internal democracy, what of its attitude to democracy in general when it has the chance to serve?




-----------------

How true is what he says from someone with more of a clue than me? I used to find his pieces very interesting and agreed with most of them. Recently, I'm not so sure. But I'm not an expert in these things.
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Offline ljycb

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Re: Labour Thread
« Reply #959 on: November 29, 2022, 05:37:59 pm »
To some of Keir Starmer’s more zealous supporters, scrutinising the opposition is an act of treachery that simply makes a Tory government more likely. Welcome to “Schrödinger’s left”: where the left of the party is simultaneously so irrelevant and toxic that it must be marginalised, but so powerful it can help determine the result of general elections.

I didn't know Owen Jones lurked in these parts.  ;D