Topic: Sarah Everard* Update Jan 2023 - Met Police rapist.

[gazzalfc]

https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/1371134436029399040

So says the barrister.

Always on the side of 'law and justice'

[ShakaHislop]

Mad from Starmer.

It's his usual (only?) tactic of playing both sides IMO. Vote down the upcoming bill in order to appease the liberals/left but don't call for Dick's resignation in an attempt to maintain pro-police "optics"/the "Red Wall" strategy. And like Brexit, he runs the risk of annoying everyone.

[Snail]

For what it's worth, I don't think Cressida Dick resigning would help all that much. In fact, I think it'd allow certain parties to say "that's it, problem solved, move on" without any actual wider consequences, investigation or indeed reform taking place.

[killer-heels]

For what it's worth, I don't think Cressida Dick resigning would help all that much. In fact, I think it'd allow certain parties to say "that's it, problem solved, move on" without any actual wider consequences, investigation or indeed reform taking place.

She needs sacking for the events yesterday, rather than it solving anything more long term.

[Ray K]

She needs sacking for the events yesterday, rather than it solving anything more long term.

She should never have been appointed in the first place. She should have been dismissed from the police force over her handling of Jean Charles de Menezes's killing by her officers.

[CHOPPER]

Yep, get rid of CD, to then more than likely, get a fella in to do the job. Huzzah! that'll teach everyone. 

Think some are missing the point of why having a woman in charge shows diversity. The poor lady is not at every event and can't control all, though granted, she is ultimately accountable. What fillip does it gain to get rid of a female in charge of the largest police force in the country and on the back of the mistreatment and in-equality of women's standing and voice, in everyday life and get a bloke in?
If anyone is going to resolve the issue in the met, then the last thing they should be doing is getting rid of a women who will understand it better than a bloke. 

[TSC]

Long read article on Misogyny from Germany.  Disturbing detail in parts and (perhaps unsurprisingly) numerous links to far right extremists.  Much of the article focuses on Germany but includes a positive reference to methods adopted in Nottinghamshire.

https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/from-digital-hate-to-analog-violence-the-dark-world-of-extremist-misogyny-a-832ed3cb-21d1-4e84-8c28-089365e91a83?sara_ecid=nl_upd_1jtzCCtmxpVo9GAZr2b4X8GquyeAc9&nlid=bfjpqhxz

[Andy82lfc]

I hope the mods and OP don't object to me posting this, but it made for interesting reading.

An unnamed police officer posted this elsewhere.

I debated for hours whether to post this or not.......
I've read lots of tweets and posts over the last week, and especially in the last 24 hours which have made me angry, sad, furious, shocked, mortified, confused, and just plain pissed off.
As ever the police are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Don't enforce the law = massively criticised / hammered in the media.
Do enforce the law = massively criticised / hammered in the media.
Ask yourself what are they supposed to do? Coronavirus legislation is what it is, we are still in the middle of a global pandemic, and 10's of thousands of people have died as a result, directly or indirectly depending on which view you take of Covid.
But the fact is the rules are laid out, as per the wishes of the government. And they are there ultimately to attempt to keep us safe. The task of enforcing these laws (as always) falls to the police, along with everything else they've got to do.
So again, what are they supposed to do? Enforce the law, or don't enforce the law. They will be hammered either way. Can't win.
What happened to Sarah Everard was utterly horrific. And it goes without saying i completely understand the strength of feeling towards the case and the issues raised. The sad reality is what we all saw last night was the blatant hijack of a vigil (which had been rightly told not to go ahead and backed by the courts) by activists, anti-police agitators, opportunists with ulterior motives and those hell bent on causing a disturbance. All under the ever present camera lenses of those with other agendas.
Spraying "All Coppers Are Bastards" on a police van is not supporting Sarah's family.
Shouting "No justice, no peace" is not supporting Sarah's family.
Holding up "Defund the Police" banners is not supporting Sarah's family.
Unfortunately a reaction was sought by some, a reaction was had (through the clear disregard of the law, public safety, call it what you will), and the aftermath perfectly timed and captured for the media to lap up and farm out.
I know who WAS supporting Sarah's family though. The police family liason officer's, sticking by them throughout the most awful time of their entire life.
The investigation team which has worked and IS working tirelessly to put the person responsible for this horrific act behind bars.
And let it be said right now, if it even needed saying: NOBODY HATES BAD COPS AS MUCH AS GOOD COPS.
They go against every oath we hold dear. They ARE NOT us.
Last night could have been and should have been a huge outpouring of support for Sarah, with doorstep candlelit vigils across the country in scenes like we saw with "clap for our NHS heroes" albeit an unbelievably sad reason on this occasion.
But in all the noise and smoke, the real message and the real show of support has been lost, as we woke up to celebrities, government officials and the *media lambasting the police.
*The utterly poisonous mainstream media quite literally, day in day out, wake up with the seemingly sole intention of dividing people, and causing hate.
In any way they can, they sow the seeds of hate between us, whether it be race, religion, gender, anything. Because it generates clicks, and in turn money.
We're at a point now where the police are always seen as the villain.  My inbox has been pinging away with calls of "murderers" and "scum". We're so quick to forget names like Wayne Marques, Ian Dibell, David Whyte, Keith Palmer, Nicola Hughes, Fiona Bone, Stephen Oake, Sharon Beshenivsky and many others. Who risked everything and in some cases gave everything to try and keep us safe.
I don't know where this all ends up. I don't even know why i wrote this. Maybe i'm just sick and tired of hearing the one sided narrative, and want to try and give a voice to the "silent" majority.
Don't get me wrong, we are NOT perfect, never claimed to be. We're only human and can / will make mistakes, it would be hugely naive to think otherwise. But we're not the enemy.
I guess i'll sign off by saying this is only my opinion. I'm not speaking on behalf of the police, although in amongst the handful of likes and comments it will inevitably get, i just hope the message gets through.

Sounds like the sort of drivel you'd see posted all over social media which was one of the reasons I got out of there years ago. He says he's a policeman so it must be true!! Making everything black and white, then playing on covid deaths.

Enforce the law or don't enforce it? How fucking pathetic. How about something in between, or is that too complicated? You do the right thing instead of hiding behind laws when it suits. As has been said so many times they could have easily enforced it last night but peacefully and without resorting to what they did.

Moronic comments like this are just digging them a bigger hole imo.

[killer-heels]

Yep, get rid of CD, to then more than likely, get a fella in to do the job. Huzzah! that'll teach everyone. 

Think some are missing the point of why having a woman in charge shows diversity. The poor lady is not at every event and can't control all, though granted, she is ultimately accountable. What fillip does it gain to get rid of a female in charge of the largest police force in the country and on the back of the mistreatment and in-equality of women's standing and voice, in everyday life and get a bloke in?
If anyone is going to resolve the issue in the met, then the last thing they should be doing is getting rid of a women who will understand it better than a bloke. 

Sack Priti Patel as well.

[CHOPPER]

Sack Priti Patel as well.

You feminists are ruthless!

[Red-Soldier]

She should never have been appointed in the first place. She should have been dismissed from the police force over her handling of Jean Charles de Menezes's killing by her officers.

That was a badge of honour that gets you promotion 

[Son of Spion]

Yep, get rid of CD, to then more than likely, get a fella in to do the job. Huzzah! that'll teach everyone. 

Think some are missing the point of why having a woman in charge shows diversity. The poor lady is not at every event and can't control all, though granted, she is ultimately accountable. What fillip does it gain to get rid of a female in charge of the largest police force in the country and on the back of the mistreatment and in-equality of women's standing and voice, in everyday life and get a bloke in?
If anyone is going to resolve the issue in the met, then the last thing they should be doing is getting rid of a women who will understand it better than a bloke.

The scenes yesterday were terrible, but I agree with you regarding sacking CD.

If she's sacked, it appeases a certain section of society, but it then outrages others who would say it buys into the sexist narrative that to get the job done right you need a man in charge.

Given the circumstances of this whole appalling tragedy, sacking the female in the top job might cause far more problems than it solves, and divert further from what really should be the focus. That being the horrific and tragic murder of a woman, and the wider issue of the safety of women and girls in society.

[TSC]

The scenes yesterday were terrible, but I agree with you regarding sacking CD.

If she's sacked, it appeases a certain section of society, but it then outrages others who would say it buys into the sexist narrative that to get the job done right you need a man in charge.

Given the circumstances of this whole appalling tragedy, sacking the female in the top job might cause far more problems than it solves, and divert further from what really should be the focus. That being the horrific and tragic murder of a woman, and the wider issue of the safety of women and girls in society.

Irrespective of gender & as with any job if post-holder is competent then said post-holder should be retained.  If incompetent then obviously the opposite applies.

[CHOPPER]

Irrespective of gender & as with any job if post-holder is competent then said post-holder should be retained.  If incompetent then obviously the opposite applies.

We should say she's competent at catching murderers, but incompetent at policing marches. 1-1 a reckon.

[killer-heels]

The scenes yesterday were terrible, but I agree with you regarding sacking CD.

If she's sacked, it appeases a certain section of society, but it then outrages others who would say it buys into the sexist narrative that to get the job done right you need a man in charge.

Given the circumstances of this whole appalling tragedy, sacking the female in the top job might cause far more problems than it solves, and divert further from what really should be the focus. That being the horrific and tragic murder of a woman, and the wider issue of the safety of women and girls in society.

No it doesnt. The person who can do the job should be in charge. She, quite clearly, cannot. She is a Tory stooge.

[CHOPPER]

No it doesnt. The person who can do the job should be in charge. She, quite clearly, cannot.

She can catch murderers, so lets not throw the baby out with the bath water here.

[gazzalfc]

Literally the same night as the vigil.

https://twitter.com/josiahmortimer/status/1371111619879702531

[gazzalfc]

Looks like the Met have their priorities tonight


Sian (sh-arn) Bradley
@sianabradley
 · 35m
Police have come back into the crowd to stand around the Winston Churchill statue. Heard from a legal observer that a commanding officer told his colleagues “protect Churchill at all costs”. Chants of “protect women not statues”.

[Eeyore]

When you're a little girl, the boys at primary school will try to look up your skirt. You don't really know why they do it, you're only 6, but you know it feels a bit weird. Maybe you tell your mum when you get home, maybe you don't. If you do tell her, maybe she'll say "boys will be boys", or maybe she'll sigh in resignation and tell you to ignore them. She's been there before. We all have.

When you're 11, 12, 13, the boys at secondary school ping your bra strap, sometimes undoing it completely. You'll be sat there trying to pay attention to the teacher, and then you'll feel a sharp snap followed by sniggering. Boys will be boys, and if you say anything, they'll be really horrible to you. It's not worth it. You're 15 now, it's summer, you take off your jumper and your Music teacher compliments you on the bra he can see through your school shirt. You have to stay behind with him to do your GCSE coursework. He compliments you on your haircut and says you look like a rockstar. You know that's not okay but he's a teacher, so how can you say anything? Your insides are squirming and you look at the clock on the wall, willing the seconds to speed up so you can get out of there.

When you walk home from school, sometimes cars beep at you. Sometimes men shout stuff out the window at you. When you're at uni, most days you get your arse grabbed on the bus. Once, you're sat in a beer garden reading a book and a man sits next to you and starts masturbating through his trousers, murmuring "let me come on you, please let me come on you". You quietly stand up, trying not to shake - with fear, with disgust - and you go inside and tell the lad on the bar. He kicks the man out and bars him, offers to call the police. You thank him but you tell him not to bother. He asks you if you're okay, you lie and say you are. You're grateful for his kindness.

The cold, dark night air feels like it's about to grow a pair of hands and grab you. You love listening to music when you walk, but headphones aren't a great idea for a woman. You're hyper-aware of your surroundings, every sound from the trees, every crunch of a twig. You texted your mate, your partner, your mum to tell them you're on the way. It's an unsaid thing, an implication that everyone understands. "I'm on my way" means "I'm on my way, if I'm not back when I should be, start to worry". You wish you could just live your life and do what you want to do without setting yourself curfews for your own safety, but it's been this way for as long as you can remember now.

There's a man walking behind you - quite far behind you - but you feel your heart rate start to pick up. Your hands are stuffed in your pockets, and you tighten your grip around the house keys which are poking out between your knuckles. Frankly, you don't know why you do it - how exactly would it help, it'd probably just make your attacker more angry - but you do it all the same, because it's kind of comforting. Your mind is racing with possible scenarios, escape routes, what might be about to happen to you. You hope you just get mugged or raped, and it doesn't go any further than that. Please, God, don't let it go any further than that... but if it does, please let it be quick.

The man - perhaps sensing your discomfort - crosses over to the other side of the road and calls someone, possibly his wife. You release the breath you didn't even realise you'd been holding, and then you start to feel bad. Bad, because you thought those awful things about someone you don't know - he could be a lovely fella, for all you know. Bad, because you can't walk the streets without picturing the awful things you think might be about to happen to you. Bad, because you're scared all the time. Bad, because for all the nice men out there, there's men like Sarah Everard's attacker. Like Libby Squires' attacker.

Then you get angry. And that's all life is, for a woman. Feeling scared, feeling bad, feeling angry. Scared, bad, angry in the knowledge that it could be you next time. Scared, bad, angry because women will continue to be killed by men until the fiery death of the universe, and there's not a thing to be done about it.

My thoughts are with Sarah Everard's family and friends.

This is what we should be concentrating on.

A wonderful heartfelt post that gets to the absolute core of this issue. Please do not turn this into whataboutery or political point scoring.

[CHOPPER]

Looks like the Met have their priorities tonight


Sian (sh-arn) Bradley
@sianabradley
 · 35m
Police have come back into the crowd to stand around the Winston Churchill statue. Heard from a legal observer that a commanding officer told his colleagues “protect Churchill at all costs”. Chants of “protect women not statues”.

So they have women protecting the statue, there is some form of irony here that I'm not qualified to get.

[AlphaDelta]

Where did you get this from? Either way basically reinforces what I was saying earlier. But fuck the police, although let's clap the NHS.

Its a post from the One Police UK Facebook page.

[Dr. Beaker]

So they have women protecting the statue, there is some form of irony here that I'm not qualified to get.

Almost as ironic as when the swastika emblazoned skinhead was guarding it during the BLM protest.

[JerseyKloppite]

I think this thread is in real danger of losing its way which would be a massive, massive shame.

It was Sian’s post so I don’t want to be too prescriptive about what is/isn’t debated here as she may have been aiming for something else, but my take on it was that there is a rancid, endemic toxic masculinity in the UK (and elsewhere) which leads to a totally unacceptable attitude and behaviour towards girls and women from a depressingly significant number of men. This is a societal issue which needs to change.

Please try to keep it to a discussion about this important issue. Whether Keir Starmer wants Cressida Dick to be sacked feels like a huge distraction from the more important issues, ditto more generalised attacks / defences of the police. The vigil last night was badly mishandled, I think we can agree on that and leave it there. If posters feel that there is an important discussion to be had about the support/protection offered to women by the police in relation to assault or sexual harassment, then that’s plainly a relevant part of this discussion. Otherwise please try to focus on the issues raised in the OP.

[Snail]

I think this thread is in real danger of losing its way which would be a massive, massive shame.

It was Sian’s post so I don’t want to be too prescriptive about what is/isn’t debated here as she may have been aiming for something else, but my take on it was that there is a rancid, endemic toxic masculinity in the UK (and elsewhere) which leads to a totally unacceptable attitude and behaviour towards girls and women from a depressingly significant number of men. This is a societal issue which needs to change.

Yeah the thread's gone to shit a bit, like.

[rob1966]

I think this thread is in real danger of losing its way which would be a massive, massive shame.

It was Sian’s post so I don’t want to be too prescriptive about what is/isn’t debated here as she may have been aiming for something else, but my take on it was that there is a rancid, endemic toxic masculinity in the UK (and elsewhere) which leads to a totally unacceptable attitude and behaviour towards girls and women from a depressingly significant number of men. This is a societal issue which needs to change.

Please try to keep it to a discussion about this important issue. Whether Keir Starmer wants Cressida Dick to be sacked feels like a huge distraction from the more important issues, ditto more generalised attacks / defences of the police. The vigil last night was badly mishandled, I think we can agree on that and leave it there. If posters feel that there is an important discussion to be had about the support/protection offered to women by the police in relation to assault or sexual harassment, then that’s plainly a relevant part of this discussion. Otherwise please try to focus on the issues raised in the OP.

My wife was telling me this morning on our walk that its on FB this morning that a fella is riding around the tow paths on the Bridgewater Canal and where we walk with the kids along the Mersey near to Sale and grabbing womens arses as he rides past, lots of women saying its happened to them. One girl apologised for reporting it, thinking it was too trivial and wouldn't be taken seriously. Thankfully GMP and Cheshire did and set up a taskforce.

Police have today arrested a 19yr old and he will be in court tomorrow on 12 charges of sexual assault.

Bastard probably thought it was funny what he was doing.

[Son of Spion]

Yeah the thread's gone to shit a bit, like.

The problem (or is it just the reality) is that the issues that lead to a thread like this needing to be made are incredibly wide ranging and pervasive. We could just talk about the symptoms, but if anything at all is to change, then the actual causes need to be looked at, talked about and addressed.

What you highlighted in your frank and disturbing thread opener are symptoms of a multitude of factors, and the issues and attitudes that lead to those appalling symptoms really are vast. That will always be reflected in any discussion on this kind of topic unless the talk is heavily censored and closed down to the point where only certain specifics can be mentioned.

[Son of Spion]

No it doesnt. The person who can do the job should be in charge. She, quite clearly, cannot. She is a Tory stooge.

Well, that should be a given with any job.

My point still stands though. If she stays, certain sections will be outraged. If she's sacked, certain other sections will be outraged and use it to suit their own particular agenda. That is as clear as day.

[mallin9]

The problem (or is it just the reality) is that the issues that lead to a thread like this needing to be made are incredibly wide ranging and pervasive. We could just talk about the symptoms, but if anything at all is to change, then the actual causes need to be looked at, talked about and addressed.

What you highlighted in your frank and disturbing thread opener are symptoms of a multitude of factors, and the issues and attitudes that lead to those appalling symptoms really are vast. That will always be reflected in any discussion on this kind of topic unless the talk is heavily censored and closed down to the point where only certain specifics can be mentioned.

I was here the other night with a post about my experience of toxic masculinity and a mod was very nice, and very wise to delete it. It was far too much. The mod did the right thing, and what I was typing up is a talk I’m going to have with my college friends on our next zoom.  And I think that little cycle touches on this SoS post; for many of us the symptoms and prism through which we view it is going to be different and the conversation sprawls, sometimes uncomfortably so.  But what sucked about this thread derailing in the manner it has is the number of posts that amount to All Lives Matter and personal point scoring and general obfuscation of the issues being raised.  That’s a shame because there is a bigger murky issue here to be discussed.  For me if nothing else good comes of it I think that OP shared some perspectives most would rather remain blissfully unaware of and is going to lead to some conversations.

[Son of Spion]

I was here the other night with a post about my experience of toxic masculinity and a mod was very nice, and very wise to delete it. It was far too much. The mod did the right thing, and what I was typing up is a talk I’m going to have with my college friends on our next zoom.  And I think that little cycle touches on this SoS post; for many of us the symptoms and prism through which we view it is going to be different and the conversation sprawls, sometimes uncomfortably so.  But what sucked about this thread derailing in the manner it has is the number of posts that amount to All Lives Matter and personal point scoring and general obfuscation of the issues being raised.  That’s a shame because there is a bigger murky issue here to be discussed.  For me if nothing else good comes of it I think that OP shared some perspectives most would rather remain blissfully unaware of and is going to lead to some conversations.

I missed your post unfortunately.

I agree wholeheartedly with you that this issue is very murky. To discuss it fully would be harrowing and disturbing. I'm always fine with that. Talking about deep, painful and often disturbing issues is my business. It's what I'm trained to do. When presented with issues, I always look to identify and explore causes. Once causes are identified and acknowledged, then you have a better chance at finding solutions.

To be honest, I think no matter what happens with this thread, the take-home for the vast majority will always be the disturbing, frank, enlightening and superbly articulated opening post by Sian. It holds a compelling power of its own that cannot really be diminished by anything that has come afterwards. It stands alone and nothing said since can alter that. In many respects, Sian's thread has already done its job. It's opened eyes and provoked thought and discussion.

Anyway, I'm going to bow out of the thread now, so I'll leave it there.

Peace and love.

[RainbowFlick]

The country is really in a horrible place. This 'war on woke' that the Tories and the media have waged now encompasses things like the understandable outrage and anger that took so many to the streets to protest.

It's genuinely frightening how this is all getting framed. The Churchill statue 'protection' is all part of creating a narrative for right-wingers to pin the blame on 'the left' and is distracting of the issue at hand, a woman was murdered by a police officer.


//


Separately, one thing I'd never really appreciated until a few conversations over the past few days is that so many women don't listen to music whilst walking at night just so they can remain vigilant. Weirdly one of my favourite things to do is aimlessly wander at night with music. It just struck me on a walk tonight that I have zero qualms about wearing noise-cancelling headphones everywhere I walk at night, even through dingy alleys and more notorious parts of London. Don't even really know why it hit me but it did for some reason.

[Schmidt]

Separately, one thing I'd never really appreciated until a few conversations over the past few days is that so many women don't listen to music whilst walking at night just so they can remain vigilant.

This thread did remind me of many times when a female friend has text to say they're on their way, and made me realise it wasn't always just out of politeness.

This doesn't feel like a thread for me to have an opinion in, more one for me to just read and absorb, but unfortunately everyone feels their need to share their opinion on everything these days, no matter how misinformed or misguided.

[AlphaDelta]

Yeah the thread's gone to shit a bit, like.

It has sadly, probably not helped by me posting pro-police details.

Sian's OP should be pinned somewhere, because its the most powerful post I've seen on this site in all my years coming on here.

Ultimately, has the thread, media, country lost track of what this is all about? A young girl was murdered in an urban environment, in our capital city, by a guy who was paid to 'serve and protect' us. Why? Because he's a dirty bastard, because he's ill in the head? Because he's a monster? I don't know.

As a man, who was raised by a single mum, in a loving environment, surrounded by people who cared for me, I've grew up to respect women. I guess you could call me old school in that I'll hold a door open, I'll give up my seat on the bus, if I'm walking with a girlfriend or a female friend I'll always walk on the outside. This is stuff I just take for granted, no ulterior motives, its just my nature.

What has happened to this girl has made me look at the wider picture and its uncomfortable viewing. You ask yourself, what could I do differently? Cross over the road to save walking behind a woman at night? I honestly don't know.

I can't start to think how Sarah's parents are feeling now, I really can't.

[Dench57]

Personally, I don't find it baffling at all. Facts are, women are not all the same and don't all see things the same way or experience them in the same way.

My own partner is a well travelled woman who has lived and worked all over the world. She also used to be in a highly dangerous, highly abusive relationship where she was regularly battered. She also counsels female victims of domestic violence and abuse and works in projects and refuges for abused women. She's in a relationship with a male victim (me) of domestic violence and abuse perpetrated by a woman. She's also dealt with what it's like to be a woman in this world through living in our city, in London and countries such as Alaska, Canada, USA, Germany and Australia.

Despite the above, she often has different opinions to other women on this topic. As I said, not all women are the same, experience things the same, perceive things the same and think the same. Of course, you know this yourself, and this is aimed more at the thought police who turn up on this kind of topic pretty much insisting there is only one acceptable way to see it. That way also just happens to be their way. I always find that rather disturbing and counter productive.

SoS, I'm quoting you on this in my ham-fisted attempt to address my feelings on this. If it means anything, I think of you as one of the most considered, thoughtful, erudite posters on RAWK. Top-tier poster. But I disagree with you on this I think, which is probably a first

I've been trying to formulate my response to not just Sian's very powerful OP, but the words, anecdotes, realities that several other female posters have come forward with in this thread. It's certainly given me pause. I've seen this shit, the "low-level" sexism that is just considered acceptable. Stuff that I, to my shame, never considered serious, but I've turned a blind-eye to when perhaps I should've done more. The cat-calls and the leering and the "eyyy you alright love" type of shit.  I think for a woman it's normalized that they have to shrug it off, because of the possible consequences. As sickening as it may be, it might be in their best interests not to confront some lad who is vocally, violently leering at them. For men? I've had the living shit beaten out of me in a dark alley late at night. But that's for a different thread. In general, I don't walk home after hours with a fear that I might get raped and killed. It's not on my radar. It probably is for every woman walking home after dark.

The Spiked article is a load of shite in my opinion. I don't really care if it's by someone that knew Sarah. It effectively tries to shrug off all the experiences that women have come forward with. It aims to de-legitimize, minimize the every-day harassment and sexism that women experience.
It tries to characterise this as just "bad luck", and tries to detract from the possibility that this is a manifestation of an endemic problem in our society.
It's standard "one bad apple", "not all men" kind of stuff.
That what happened to Sarah was just "unlucky", that what happened to her doesn't indicate a wider problem in society.
For me, it goes into the same school of thought that George Floyd, and every black person unlawfully killed in America, was just "unlucky".
That all those children who died by school shootings with a semi-auto gun, well, that's just one "lone gunsman, probably mentally ill"

We have to reflect and try to understand why this is happening. These are not isolated incidents. They are a product of our culture. We have to take responsibility at some stage and work out what we can be doing better, rather than just saying - this guy is a nutter, he doesn't represent me. Why do we live in a society where it's "acceptable" to unsolicitedly come onto, grope, talk to a woman in these terms? This is our culture, this is not just "bad apples".

To look at what happened to Sarah Everard, to look at what happens up and down the country, every minute of every day, and say "well, it's just one nutter, what can you do". Sorry, I disagree with that.
We've allowed this environment for them.
For the police, for those in power, for the men that know they can abduct a woman off the street. It's endemic. Saying "well, he's just a lone psycho, case closed, move on" - no, sorry, not good enough.

[TepidT2O]

1 woman every hour is raped by a stranger....


But 90% of women are raped by someone they know

Rape convictions are at a record low.

Yet rape is only the tip of the iceberg

[Dench57]

Oh yeah and @CHOPPER.

Cressida Dick is a hard-right Tory piece of shit that has presided over some seriously heinous miscarriages of justice and by every possble metric, she should be getting binned. Her being a woman has nothing to do with anything and I think it's patronizing to suggest we "keep her on" because she is a woman

[A-Bomb]

It shouldn't be - but this will be next weeks chip paper, with no practical changes made to legislation or behaviours, and will slowly whittle away from discussion as the next topic / news comes into the mix. 

Which I suppose makes it all a little more depressing.

[Koplass]

Personally, I don't find it baffling at all. Facts are, women are not all the same and don't all see things the same way or experience them in the same way.

My own partner is a well travelled woman who has lived and worked all over the world. She also used to be in a highly dangerous, highly abusive relationship where she was regularly battered. She also counsels female victims of domestic violence and abuse and works in projects and refuges for abused women. She's in a relationship with a male victim (me) of domestic violence and abuse perpetrated by a woman. She's also dealt with what it's like to be a woman in this world through living in our city, in London and countries such as Alaska, Canada, USA, Germany and Australia.

Despite the above, she often has different opinions to other women on this topic. As I said, not all women are the same, experience things the same, perceive things the same and think the same. Of course, you know this yourself, and this is aimed more at the thought police who turn up on this kind of topic pretty much insisting there is only one acceptable way to see it. That way also just happens to be their way. I always find that rather disturbing and counter productive.

I'm guessing by your very thoughtful posts in this thread SoS that your partner is also able to make the connection between toxic masculinity and sexual assault statistics? But perhaps not, I'd be really intrigued to hear a different argument.

[diggerling!]

Personally, I don't find it baffling at all. Facts are, women are not all the same and don't all see things the same way or experience them in the same way.

My own partner is a well travelled woman who has lived and worked all over the world. She also used to be in a highly dangerous, highly abusive relationship where she was regularly battered. She also counsels female victims of domestic violence and abuse and works in projects and refuges for abused women. She's in a relationship with a male victim (me) of domestic violence and abuse perpetrated by a woman. She's also dealt with what it's like to be a woman in this world through living in our city, in London and countries such as Alaska, Canada, USA, Germany and Australia.

Despite the above, she often has different opinions to other women on this topic. As I said, not all women are the same, experience things the same, perceive things the same and think the same. Of course, you know this yourself, and this is aimed more at the thought police who turn up on this kind of topic pretty much insisting there is only one acceptable way to see it. That way also just happens to be their way. I always find that rather disturbing and counter productive.

Of course not all women will experience things in the same way. Even women who have experienced the same thing will have differing responses to it.

You seem to be implying that women should accept their lot and just toughen up a bit. Which is a very strange position for someone who actually spends time counselling victims of abuse. I mean, 'the thought police' ffs.

[Koplass]

SoS, I'm quoting you on this in my ham-fisted attempt to address my feelings on this. If it means anything, I think of you as one of the most considered, thoughtful, erudite posters on RAWK. Top-tier poster. But I disagree with you on this I think, which is probably a first

I've been trying to formulate my response to not just Sian's very powerful OP, but the words, anecdotes, realities that several other female posters have come forward with in this thread. It's certainly given me pause. I've seen this shit, the "low-level" sexism that is just considered acceptable. Stuff that I, to my shame, never considered serious, but I've turned a blind-eye to when perhaps I should've done more. The cat-calls and the leering and the "eyyy you alright love" type of shit.  I think for a woman it's normalized that they have to shrug it off, because of the possible consequences. As sickening as it may be, it might be in their best interests not to confront some lad who is vocally, violently leering at them. For men? I've had the living shit beaten out of me in a dark alley late at night. But that's for a different thread. In general, I don't walk home after hours with a fear that I might get raped and killed. It's not on my radar. It probably is for every woman walking home after dark.

The Spiked article is a load of shite in my opinion. I don't really care if it's by someone that knew Sarah. It effectively tries to shrug off all the experiences that women have come forward with. It aims to de-legitimize, minimize the every-day harassment and sexism that women experience.
It tries to characterise this as just "bad luck", and tries to detract from the possibility that this is a manifestation of an endemic problem in our society.
It's standard "one bad apple", "not all men" kind of stuff.
That what happened to Sarah was just "unlucky", that what happened to her doesn't indicate a wider problem in society.
For me, it goes into the same school of thought that George Floyd, and every black person unlawfully killed in America, was just "unlucky".
That all those children who died by school shootings with a semi-auto gun, well, that's just one "lone gunsman, probably mentally ill"

We have to reflect and try to understand why this is happening. These are not isolated incidents. They are a product of our culture. We have to take responsibility at some stage and work out what we can be doing better, rather than just saying - this guy is a nutter, he doesn't represent me. Why do we live in a society where it's "acceptable" to unsolicitedly come onto, grope, talk to a woman in these terms? This is our culture, this is not just "bad apples".

To look at what happened to Sarah Everard, to look at what happens up and down the country, every minute of every day, and say "well, it's just one nutter, what can you do". Sorry, I disagree with that. We've allowed this environment for them. For the police, for those in power, for the men that know they can abduct a woman off the street. It's endemic. Saying "well, he's just a lone psycho, case closed, move on" - no, sorry, not good enough.

 

[jillcwhomever]

+1.