Topic: Nat Phillips

[rubber soul]

When Saint-Maximin was terrorising our defence did anyone really think if only we had Nat to nullify him.

The forwards did their job they put us in front. It was the defenders job to see us through.

Just look at how many points we have dropped from winning positions.

Do you honestly think the forwards did their job on Saturday? Spending almost the entire game looking like they were doing everything they could not to score against a team who seemed to be doing everything they could to make it easy for us to score?
So if we go one up after 3 minutes the forwards can say "that's us, job done?"
I'm not excusing any defensive shortcomings but to suggest not winning that game solely because of the defence is a bit of a stretch.

[Eeyore]

Do you honestly think the forwards did their job on Saturday? Spending almost the entire game looking like they were doing everything they could not to score against a team who seemed to be doing everything they could to make it easy for us to score?
So if we go one up after 3 minutes the forwards can say "that's us, job done?"
I'm not excusing any defensive shortcomings but to suggest not winning that game solely because of the defence is a bit of a stretch.

Last season we lead in 34 matches and won 32 of those games. This season we have led in 22 games but only won 15 of those games.

Last season we took 19 points after falling behind this season we have 13 points from 33 games.

It is easy to see where the fall off is. We simply cannot see out games that we are winning. For me last season we would have seen out both the Leeds game and the Newcastle game. Last season we won a hell of a lot of games by a single goal. This season has been blighted by drawing games we were ahead in.

[Funky_Gibbons]

I am not sure mate.

We are the 5th highest goalscorers. The shocking bit is that Brighton have conceded 39 and Fulham have conceded 43 they are in 17th and 18th place in the League.

We have conceded 39 from 33 games this season.

In 18/19 we conceded 22 from 38 games.

Phillips has played 10 games for us this season, in those ten games we've conceded 7 goals, over a 38 game season that would be around 27 goals conceded.

Considering in many of those games we had no Henderson or Fabinho in midfield, that record is perfectly acceptable.

The biggest miss having Phillips out though is shifting Fabinho back into defence.

It's also misleading to claim that because we're the 5th highest goalscorers the forwards are doing their jobs. It's been pretty clear the forwards have fallen off a cliff since the Palace away game. Up to and including the Palace game our record was P14 W9 D4 L1 F36 A19 so we were scoring at an average of 2.57 goals per game.

Since the Palace game our record is P19 W6 D5 L8 F19 A20. Over the last 19-games we're scoring at 1 goal per game which is unacceptable.

[rubber soul]

Last season we lead in 34 matches and won 32 of those games. This season we have led in 22 games but only won 15 of those games.

Last season we took 19 points after falling behind this season we have 13 points from 33 games.

It is easy to see where the fall off is. We simply cannot see out games that we are winning. For me last season we would have seen out both the Leeds game and the Newcastle game. Last season we won a hell of a lot of games by a single goal. This season has been blighted by drawing games we were ahead in.

Last season we kept 2 clean sheets in the first 15 games yet won 14 of them. I'm not arguing that our attempts to manage games we are leading have been beyond poor this season, just disputing that the forwards scoring a single goal in the opening minutes of the game is job done for them.

[Black Bull Nova]

Last season we kept 2 clean sheets in the first 15 games yet won 14 of them. I'm not arguing that our attempts to manage games we are leading have been beyond poor this season, just disputing that the forwards scoring a single goal in the opening minutes of the game is job done for them.

No doubt that it at the other end that the problem has been since Palace, hence many coming on here to defend Nat as he's not the problem as has sort of been proven by the last two games without him.

[CraigDS]

Last season we lead in 34 matches and won 32 of those games. This season we have led in 22 games but only won 15 of those games.

Last season we took 19 points after falling behind this season we have 13 points from 33 games.

It is easy to see where the fall off is. We simply cannot see out games that we are winning. For me last season we would have seen out both the Leeds game and the Newcastle game. Last season we won a hell of a lot of games by a single goal. This season has been blighted by drawing games we were ahead in.

How many of those games we scored first in did we also get a second? Because that’s been the issue in a lot of our games this season. If we’d have got the second, from one of the many chances we’ve had, then a makeshift defence leaking the odd late goal wouldn’t matter.

[El Lobo]

13 of the 15 points we’ve dropped from a winning position have been when we only scored once

[So… Howard Philips]

Last season we won nine games by a 2-1 score. Those second goals gave us an additional 18 points.

Shows you the difference forwards getting that second goal makes.

[El Lobo]

I dont think Als wrong either though to be fair, if we had VVD and Gomez at CB in the last two games I'm sure we'd have seen them out. But then I'm sure we'd have been further ahead if we had them in the team anyway, so a bit of a moot point.

[Eeyore]

How many of those games we scored first in did we also get a second? Because that’s been the issue in a lot of our games this season. If we’d have got the second, from one of the many chances we’ve had, then a makeshift defence leaking the odd late goal wouldn’t matter.

You have to look at the psychological effect though Craig. Scoring becomes easier when you are confident that the team can see games out. The forwards are more relaxed and do things naturally.

When you go on the pitch thinking we have to outscore these and have little confidence in the defence sustaining any sort of pressure then players tighten up. That is what is happening for me the forwards are trying too hard.

Look at the goal v Newcastle. Mo had no time to think he just spun and smashed it.

It also has the reverse effect on the opposition. Last season teams were beaten before they went on the pitch. We had no weaknesses. There was no real way of getting at us and that for me is why we went 27,1,1 in the League. This season teams go on to the pitch knowing that they have very simple ways of getting at us. Pretty much every side has done the same thing targetted the right hand side of our defence on the counter.

You also have to look at how many crucial goals we scored from set pieces last season. We have zero threat from set pieces at the moment.

[CraigDS]

You have to look at the psychological effect though Craig. Scoring becomes easier when you are confident that the team can see games out. The forwards are more relaxed and do things naturally.

When you go on the pitch thinking we have to outscore these and have little confidence in the defence sustaining any sort of pressure then players tighten up. That is what is happening for me the forwards are trying too hard.

We didn't look so tight in Klopp's first season(s) where we went out with a "if you score 4 then we'll score 5" mentality at times.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

You have to look at the psychological effect though Craig. Scoring becomes easier when you are confident that the team can see games out. The forwards are more relaxed and do things naturally.

When you go on the pitch thinking we have to outscore these and have little confidence in the defence sustaining any sort of pressure then players tighten up. That is what is happening for me the forwards are trying too hard.

Look at the goal v Newcastle. Mo had no time to think he just spun and smashed it.

It also has the reverse effect on the opposition. Last season teams were beaten before they went on the pitch. We had no weaknesses. There was no real way of getting at us and that for me is why we went 27,1,1 in the League. This season teams go on to the pitch knowing that they have very simple ways of getting at us. Pretty much every side has done the same thing targetted the right hand side of our defence on the counter.

You also have to look at how many crucial goals we scored from set pieces last season. We have zero threat from set pieces at the moment.

Our lack of defensive quality certainly causes plenty of issues in terms of how we can approach games, specifically how high we can press and condense the pitch, but I wouldn't be letting Mane or Firmino off the hook in terms of finishing because of that. I don't think Mané has played like a non-league player for four months because we don't have world class defenders. Having an average defence behind you should make you more ruthless if anything, not the other way around. There's very little excuse for some of his selfishness and profligacy in front of goal lately, while Firmino is just a bad finisher and barring one hot season where he often found himself on the end of blistering counter-attacks to apply a simple finish always has been, period. The way he strikes the ball is abject and not conducive to consistently scoring goals - no one will convince me otherwise.

VVD and Gomez back on the pitch in whatever state they are in isn't going to magically correct their play - the attack needs a refresh just as much as the defence does. That goes for our way of playing as much as the individuals though in fairness.

[Eeyore]

We didn't look so tight in Klopp's first season(s) where we went out with a "if you score 4 then we'll score 5" mentality at times.

It is fine having an attitude that you will outscore the opposition if they come out and play but far too often teams park the bus and look to counter down the RHS of our defence.

[CraigDS]

It is fine having an attitude that you will outscore the opposition if they come out and play but far too often teams park the bus and look to counter down the RHS of our defence.

Teams have never really come out against us, especially at Anfield. We just blitzed them.

[Eeyore]

Teams have never really come out against us, especially at Anfield. We just blitzed them.

The difference is that we offer no threat from set pieces.

Look at how many crucial goals Virgil has chipped in with.



Teams now just double up on Mo and Sadio have stopped diving in so the penalties have dried up. They just make us cross the ball in to a packed penalty area and are quite content to put it out for a corner.

They don't even have to flood forward on the counter-attack. Just draw Nat and Trent up the pitch and go long over the RHS of our defence.

[CraigDS]

The difference is that we offer no threat from set pieces.

Look at how many crucial goals Virgil has chipped in with.

[img width= height= alt=virg" border="0]https://i.ibb.co/KxXfdsN/virg.png[/img]

Teams now just double up on Mo and Sadio have stopped diving in so the penalties have dried up. They just make us cross the ball in to a packed penalty area and are quite content to put it out for a corner.

They don't even have to flood forward on the counter-attack. Just draw Nat and Trent up the pitch and go long over the RHS of our defence.

VVD wasn't here then, we had Lovren chipping in with 2 but that's it.

[Eeyore]

VVD wasn't here then, we had Lovren chipping in with 2 but that's it.

What did we win pre VVD ?

[CraigDS]

What did we win pre VVD ?

You're twisting the discussion now Al. It was not about winning things, it was about you saying the forwards don't feel confident and are therefore missing chances because the defence is shit. I simply pointed out it was shit in 16/17, without VVD, yet the forwards were more than confident to go out and score plenty.

[Eeyore]

You're twisting the discussion now Al. It was not about winning things, it was about you saying the forwards don't feel confident and are therefore missing chances because the defence is shit. I simply pointed out it was shit in 16/17, without VVD, yet the forwards were more than confident to go out and score plenty.

In 16/17 we conceded 36 goals in 38 games. We have conceded 39 now with 5 games left.

The other major thing is that in 16/17 we had Coutinho who was our top scorer that season. Someone who was adept at scoring from distance and from free kicks. That season in the League Sadio got 13 and Bobby got 11 so they weren't prolific. Lallana chipped in with 8. So Coutinho and Lallana who were not out and out strikers scored a combined 21 and Sadio and Bobby got 24.

A big difference then as well was that if we went a goal up teams would have to come out and play, and we were prolific on the counter-attack. This season teams know they don't have to throw bodies forward unless it is a set piece and just do us over the top with a long ball.

[MNTY]

Hopefully a new contract is on the way he's done brilliant.

[Chris~]

We've conceded 26 in the 28 games post Gomez and Van Dijk injuries. That's a hell of an effort given the revolving door of player given injuries.

Trying to blame the defence for most our attackers shitting the bed for half a season is a ridiculous stretch at this point

[Welshred]

Hopefully a new contract is on the way he's done brilliant.

I hope not. We can, and should, be doing far better.

[AndyMuller]

I hope not. We can, and should, be doing far better.

Name a better 5th choice centre back.

[Welshred]

Name a better 5th choice centre back.

Fabinho

[AndyMuller]

Fabinho

Then lose our best centre mid? Nah.

[Welshred]

Then lose our best centre mid? Nah.

OK then. Jordan Henderson. I would rather play those two there than Phillips

[AndyMuller]

OK then. Jordan Henderson. I would rather play those two there than Phillips

Good job your not the manager then.

[CraigDS]

Name a better 5th choice centre back.

Does he want to be 5th choice though?

Plus there are probably loads of players we can get who fit how we want to play, with a high line, for the fee we could get for Phillips this summer.

[The G in Gerrard]

Haven't we learnt that putting Henderson or Fabinho in defence makes our midfield considerably worse.

[Welshred]

Good job your not the manager then.

Why? Did Jurgen not play both Fabinho and Jordan Henderson at centre back before he finally have Phillips a go?

[AndyMuller]

Why? Did Jurgen not play both Fabinho and Jordan Henderson at centre back before he finally have Phillips a go?

He did but realised how shit the midfield is without either of them therefore the Bolton Baresi stepped up and looks better than the other centre back we got on loan.

[Eeyore]

We've conceded 26 in the 28 games post Gomez and Van Dijk injuries. That's a hell of an effort given the revolving door of player given injuries.

Trying to blame the defence for most our attackers shitting the bed for half a season is a ridiculous stretch at this point

That has traditionally happened though when teams try and shore things up at the back. You don't get as many players forward early in the move and your passing in and around the opposition tends to be safe and passive because you don't want to lose possession and allow a counter-attack.

Since Xmas our full backs who are our main creative influence have tended to sit deeper especially early in moves. Last season our centre backs were pinging 50-60 yard balls into the full backs. That was happening because our full backs were pushed so high up the pitch. The full backs can then whip early balls in against a retreating defence.

Since Xmas our full backs have sat far deeper and buy the time we get up the pitch the oppositions' defence is set and their defenders can attack the crosses.

[Eeyore]

He did but realised how shit the midfield is without either of them therefore the Bolton Baresi stepped up and looks better than the other centre back we got on loan.

That isn't how it happened though. Nat didn't get a run until both Hendo and Fab were injured.

[Welshred]

He did but realised how shit the midfield is without either of them therefore the Bolton Baresi stepped up and looks better than the other centre back we got on loan.

Actually he moved Fabinho back into midfield and continued playing Henderson at centre back with Kabak next to him before Henderson got injured...

The Bolton Baresi stuff is really nauseating. You'd think he's the reincarnation of Beckenbauer and Baresi combined with the way some people go on about him.

I wouldnt spend the money on Kabak either. We can, and should, be doing better.

If we go into next season with Van Dijk, Gomez, Matip and Konate with Henderson or Fabinho being used as back ups if needed I won't be complaining.

[Chris~]

That has traditionally happened though when teams try and shore things up at the back. You don't get as many players forward early in the move and your passing in and around the opposition tends to be safe and passive because you don't want to lose possession and allow a counter-attack.

Since Xmas our full backs who are our main creative influence have tended to sit deeper especially early in moves. Last season our centre backs were pinging 50-60 yard balls into the full backs. That was happening because our full backs were pushed so high up the pitch. The full backs can then whip early balls in against a retreating defence.

Since Xmas our full backs have sat far deeper and buy the time we get up the pitch the oppositions' defence is set and their defenders can attack the crosses.

So a good defensive record is bad when it suits your argument?

We've created plenty of chances since christmas that any adjustments made shouldn't be used as an excuse for them either. They missed loads of chances, it's cost us. Our defence has been weakened and we needed our attack to step up, they couldn't. Again, blaming the defence for our attack is ridiculous.

[AndyMuller]

That isn't how it happened though. Nat didn't get a run until both Hendo and Fab were injured.

Did he lose his place when either of them came back from injury?

[AndyMuller]

Actually he moved Fabinho back into midfield and continued playing Henderson at centre back with Kabak next to him before Henderson got injured...

The Bolton Baresi stuff is really nauseating. You'd think he's the reincarnation of Beckenbauer and Baresi combined with the way some people go on about him.

I wouldnt spend the money on Kabak either. We can, and should, be doing better.

If we go into next season with Van Dijk, Gomez, Matip and Konate with Henderson or Fabinho being used as back ups if needed I won't be complaining.

You won’t be complaining until Matip and Gomez get injured again 

[Welshred]

Did he lose his place when either of them came back from injury?

Henderson is back from injury?

You won’t be complaining until Matip and Gomez get injured again 

I wasn't complaining when we lost them through injury this season.

[AndyMuller]

Henderson is back from injury?

I wasn't complaining when we lost them through injury this season.

Fair enough.

[tornado]

Hope he is back for the weekend