Poll

RAWK and Brexit

No Deal!
65 (8.8%)
Mays Deal!
14 (1.9%)
No Brexit!
539 (72.8%)
Don't Know
10 (1.4%)
Don't Care
15 (2%)
I don't live in the UK
97 (13.1%)

Total Members Voted: 740

Author Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"  (Read 1462053 times)

Offline KillieRed

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28040 on: September 11, 2019, 11:19:13 am »

Talking of propaganda, anyone else heard all those "get ready for Brexit-its-definitely-happening-on-the-31st-october" anouncements before your favourite podcasts?

It doesnt matter that at least 50% of the country dont want to brexit, it was forced through illegally and no-one voted for No Deal anyway;

IT`S DEFINITELY HAPPENING because the Tory Party have been infiltrated by exremists and nothing else matters.
The best way to scare a Tory is to read and get rich” - Idles.

Offline Ray K

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28041 on: September 11, 2019, 11:19:20 am »
Classic Dom.  Mind-gaming the shit out of those judges.
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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28042 on: September 11, 2019, 11:22:45 am »
This is copper bottomed proof that Bolux intentionally misled the Queen, how is that going to play out with the flag waving twats on whom he generally relies.
NAKED BOOBERY

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Offline Iska

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28043 on: September 11, 2019, 11:26:03 am »
Fuck, those comments by the judges are damning.  Unless the Supreme Court says the opposite he has to resign immediately.  Then where are we?  This is the only show in town all of a sudden.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 11:28:02 am by Iska »

Offline Robinred

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28044 on: September 11, 2019, 11:26:58 am »

This is from George Monbiot in today’s Guardian. It’s an interesting read, and although I distrust his overall world view as too binary and simplistic, he nonetheless hits some targets:

The insidious ideology pushing us towards a Brexit cliff-edge

“At first sight it’s incomprehensible. Why risk everything for a no-deal Brexit? Breaking up their own party, losing their parliamentary majority, dismantling the UK, trashing the economy, triggering shortages of food and medicine: how could any objective, for the Conservative and Unionist party, be worth this? What good does it do them?

Yes, some people will benefit. To judge by recent donations to the Conservative party, some very rich people approve of Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson’s policies. A no-deal Brexit might favour hedge funds that thrive on uncertainty, financiers seeking to short the pound, vulture capitalists hoping to mop up cheap property if markets collapse. But the winners are likely to be greatly outnumbered by the losers, among whom are many powerful commercial interests.

 Neoliberalism promised freedom – instead it delivers stifling control.

We make a mistake when we assume that money is the main motivation. Our unreformed, corrupt and corrupting political funding system ensures it is an important factor. But what counts above all else is ideology, as ideology successfully pursued is the means to power. You cannot exercise true power over other people unless you can shape the way they think, and shape their behaviour on the basis of that thought. The long-term interests of ideology differ from the short-term interests of politics.

This, I believe, is the key to understanding what is happening today. The Brexit ultras in government are not just Brexit ultras. They are neoliberal ultras, and Brexit is a highly effective means of promoting this failed ideology. It’s the ultimate shock doctrine, using a public emergency to justify the imposition of policies that wouldn’t be accepted in ordinary times. Whether they really want no deal or not, the threat of it creates the political space in which they can apply their ideas.

Neoliberalism is the ideology developed by people such as Friedrich Hayek and Milton Friedman. It is not just a set of free-market ideas, but a focused discipline, deliberately applied around the world. It treats competition as humanity’s defining characteristic, sees citizens as consumers and “the market” as society’s organising principle. The market, it claims, sorts us into a natural hierarchy of winners and losers. Any attempt by politics to intervene disrupts the discovery of this natural order.

It was embraced by Margaret Thatcher, Ronald Reagan and most subsequent governments. They sought to implement the doctrine by cutting taxes, privatising and outsourcing public services, slashing public protections, crushing trade unions and creating markets where markets did not exist before. The doctrine was imposed by central banks, the IMF, the Maastricht treaty and the World Trade Organization. By shutting down political choice, governments and international bodies created a kind of totalitarian capitalism.

It has failed on its own terms, and in many other ways. Far from creating general prosperity, growth has been slower in the neoliberal era than it was in preceding decades, and most of its fruits have been gathered by the rich. Far from stimulating an enterprise economy, it has created a gilded age for rent-seekers. Far from eliminating bureaucracy, it has created a Kafkaesque system of mad diktats and stifling control. It has fomented ecological, social, political, economic and financial crises, culminating in the 2008 crash. Yet, perhaps because its opponents have not produced a new, compelling story of their own, it still dominates our lives.

 The creation of emergency is the inevitable destination of an absolutist, failed system
Unsurprisingly, people have reacted to the closure of political choice and the multiple disasters it caused. But because neoliberalism, in broad terms, was adopted not only by the right, but also by the Democrats, New Labour and similar parties, there were few places to turn. Many people responded with nationalism and nativism. The new politics that Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson’s government represents incorporates both neoliberalism and the reaction to it. The glitter-eyed essentialists on the frontbenches – such as Dominic Raab, Liz Truss and Sajid Javid – still seek to implement the ideology in its most extreme form. The opportunists, such as Johnson, Fuckwitted Pob lookalike Michael Gove and Priti Patel, appeal to those who seek scapegoats for the disasters it has created.

Johnson uses neoliberal framing to justify his attacks on public safety. He wants to pull down environmental standards, create free ports in which businesses can avoid tax and regulation, and strike a rapid trade deal with the United States that is likely to rip up animal welfare rules and threaten the survival of the NHS.

He rages against red tape, but the real red tape is created by the international trade treaties he favours, that render democratic change almost impossible, through rules that protect capital against popular challenge, and shift decision-making away from parliaments and into unaccountable offshore courts (“investor-state dispute settlement”). This explains the enthusiasm among some on the left for Brexit: a belief that escaping from the EU means escaping from coercive trade instruments. In reality, it exposes us to something even worse, as the UK enters negotiations with the US, holding a begging bowl.

Now, as the professor of political economy Abby Innes argues, neoliberalism has reached its Brezhnev phase: “ossification, self-dealing, and directionless political churn”. Like Leninism, neoliberalism claims to be an infallible science. Its collision with the complexities of the real world has caused political sclerosis of the kind that characterised the decline of Soviet communism. As a result, “the only way to complete this revolution today is under cover of other projects: Brexit is ideal”.

The creation of emergency is the inevitable destination of an absolutist, failed system. But emergency also provides the last means by which the failed system can be defended and extended.”
"The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology...as long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth." Mikhail Bakunin

Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28045 on: September 11, 2019, 11:27:50 am »
Absolutely nothing will come of that court ruling.

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28046 on: September 11, 2019, 11:31:47 am »
Indeed. They appear to think themselves above the law.
The party of unlawfulness and disorder.
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Offline classycarra

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28047 on: September 11, 2019, 11:38:57 am »
Absolutely nothing will come of that court ruling.

Disagree

Offline Cpt_Reina

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Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28049 on: September 11, 2019, 11:45:47 am »
If you have any spare cash, please consider supporting the lawyer and his Good Law Project that brought today's case, as well as the Article 50 revocation case.

https://goodlawproject.org/about/

https://twitter.com/jolyonmaugham

Offline Claire.

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28050 on: September 11, 2019, 11:46:53 am »
Well. He's up to 252 parts in the thread, and is taking a break before continuing. I am not sure what I (or anyone else) is supposed to do with all that. Who is he? Why the link?

If you're not interested in the SCL/AIQ/CA interference in brexit/Trump then don't bother, but there may well be people interested here.

Offline CraigDS

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28051 on: September 11, 2019, 11:47:43 am »
If you're not interested in the SCL/AIQ/CA interference in brexit/Trump then don't bother, but there may well be people interested here.

It makes for some very interesting reading. Never realised the web of companies / people who are all linked.

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28052 on: September 11, 2019, 11:48:28 am »
What will happen if the Supreme Court in London rules in favour of Boris? What will the Scots think of that decision then?
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Offline classycarra

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28053 on: September 11, 2019, 11:49:25 am »
Hope you're right.

I'm sure the government will try to straight bat it, as if it changes nothing or is just advisory (even though it's not). But if not today, I expect by next week that the prorogation will be lifted.

Campaigners, opposition MPs and Tory democrats will no doubt come up with some creative ways to shame the government while also making clear they are attacking democracy.

Offline classycarra

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28054 on: September 11, 2019, 11:50:23 am »
If you're not interested in the SCL/AIQ/CA interference in brexit/Trump then don't bother, but there may well be people interested here.

I'm keen to give it a read

What will happen if the Supreme Court in London rules in favour of Boris? What will the Scots think of that decision then?

Seems unlikely, given the certainty of the ruling following disclosure of communications behind the scene. It would overturn the ruling from Scots courts to end the prorogation though

Offline Circa1892

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28055 on: September 11, 2019, 11:52:13 am »
Watson needs to be sacked.

Disgrace. Everything going on and all you give a shit about is your tiny, factional insignificant little war. People like you are a reason this country has got to this state.

Offline Iska

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28056 on: September 11, 2019, 11:57:27 am »
What will happen if the Supreme Court in London rules in favour of Boris? What will the Scots think of that decision then?
It would be perfectly normal - the Supreme Court is the highest Scottish judicial authority too, and Scottish judges sit on it.  It happens a lot.

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28057 on: September 11, 2019, 11:57:35 am »
It makes for some very interesting reading. Never realised the web of companies / people who are all linked.

If it was published in a readable article I'd probably bother with it, but I'm simply not reading over 250 tweets at once.

Offline KillieRed

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28058 on: September 11, 2019, 11:59:04 am »
What will happen if the Supreme Court in London rules in favour of Boris? What will the Scots think of that decision then?

I`d be more worried about the nationalism that will be whipped by those who oppose it, if it`s enforced.
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28059 on: September 11, 2019, 12:00:59 pm »
Fuck, those comments by the judges are damning.  Unless the Supreme Court says the opposite he has to resign immediately.  Then where are we?  This is the only show in town all of a sudden.

Has the Scottish case set out which elected officials were involved beyond Johnson? Presumably Cox and Buckland are in tricky positions regardless with Downing Street's current and ongoing response to following the law as well as any and all advice they may have given the government about this.
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And your money will have bought you nothing."

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28060 on: September 11, 2019, 12:06:22 pm »
I`d be more worried about the nationalism that will be whipped by those who oppose it, if it`s enforced.
That's what I worry about as well. I shall again quote the Scottish poet, Sir Walter Scott, “Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive!"
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Offline Circa1892

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28061 on: September 11, 2019, 12:11:12 pm »
Has the Scottish case set out which elected officials were involved beyond Johnson? Presumably Cox and Buckland are in tricky positions regardless with Downing Street's current and ongoing response to following the law as well as any and all advice they may have given the government about this.

Cox and Buckland are finished in the law. They've sold their souls and their careers.

Offline J_Kopite

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28062 on: September 11, 2019, 12:12:32 pm »
"I've shot you Jeff. With a bullet made of Scottish finance regulations." - Mark Corrigan

"I've shot you Boris. With a bullet made of a decision from the Scottish Court of Session." - Joanna Cherry QC

Offline Iska

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28063 on: September 11, 2019, 12:26:40 pm »
Has the Scottish case set out which elected officials were involved beyond Johnson? Presumably Cox and Buckland are in tricky positions regardless with Downing Street's current and ongoing response to following the law as well as any and all advice they may have given the government about this.
The written reasons are released first thing Friday morning.  That they didn’t come out today suggests they might be pretty lengthy.  I doubt they’ll have said much more in open court than has been reported already, but that’s damning enough.  In fact I’m struggling to think of anything like it having been said before in something of such magnitude.

Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28064 on: September 11, 2019, 12:28:39 pm »
Someone asked the other day about how a Speaker is chosen and seeing the number of those wishing to stand continue to rise... ParlyApp (a journalism project focused on Parliament and procedures) has the full break down in a twitter thread: https://twitter.com/PARLYapp/status/1171425622171668482
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And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28065 on: September 11, 2019, 12:31:25 pm »
Fuck, those comments by the judges are damning.  Unless the Supreme Court says the opposite he has to resign immediately.  Then where are we?  This is the only show in town all of a sudden.
The Supreme Court could add their own comments condemning Johnson and the government - I doubt it would result in him resigning. We are different reality now. A really dangerous place. I warned (as did others) about this a couple of years ago - some thought I was scaremongering, invoking Godwin's Law, etc. This Government must be stopped and stopped now.

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=328948.msg15712601#msg15712601
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Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28066 on: September 11, 2019, 12:33:27 pm »
If you're not interested in the SCL/AIQ/CA interference in brexit/Trump then don't bother, but there may well be people interested here.
I was just looking for a bit of background. It seemed just a bit random, that's all.
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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28067 on: September 11, 2019, 12:34:39 pm »
Going to be very interesting seeing how the evidence is presented to the Supreme Court.
If his defence is this, calling Johnson a liar is a outrageous attack on his character then good luck with that.
If this is about proving Johnson is a prolific liar and this is just another example of his contempt for honesty then Johnson will be crucified.
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28068 on: September 11, 2019, 12:34:48 pm »
The written reasons are released first thing Friday morning.  That they didn’t come out today suggests they might be pretty lengthy.  I doubt they’ll have said much more in open court than has been reported already, but that’s damning enough.  In fact I’m struggling to think of anything like it having been said before in something of such magnitude.

Ta Iska. Reading through what clever people are saying, seems that the Supreme Court's decision is really whether it matters in law that Johnson lied about the reason or not (Scottish court says it does, English court says it doesn't). That said, if it finds that he did lie but it doesn't matter then, as you suggest, it seems difficult to see how Johnson carries on as PM unless Parliament turns a blind eye to it.
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Offline CraigDS

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28069 on: September 11, 2019, 12:35:36 pm »
If the Supreme Court agree then I think the Queen can effectively sack him can’t she?

Offline Trada

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28070 on: September 11, 2019, 12:37:39 pm »
People saying the Government Lawyers made a basic error after the judgment they didn't ask for the ruling to be suspended until after the appeal next week.

So the Government will now be breaking the law if they don't recall Parliament.
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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28071 on: September 11, 2019, 12:38:44 pm »
If the Supreme Court agree then I think the Queen can effectively sack him can’t she?

Does she have the balls to? She seems pretty pointless to me

Offline Iska

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28072 on: September 11, 2019, 12:40:29 pm »
People saying the Government Lawyers made a basic error after the judgment they didn't ask for the ruling to be suspended until after the appeal next week.

So the Government will now be breaking the law if they don't recall Parliament.
The court said nothing was to be done until the Supreme Court makes its decision.

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28073 on: September 11, 2019, 12:44:55 pm »
If the Supreme Court agree then I think the Queen can effectively sack him can’t she?
Depends on the precedent really ..

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28074 on: September 11, 2019, 12:45:14 pm »
Labour putting a second referendum commitment into their manifesto might give them an edge over the Lib Dems with Remainers wanting the Tories out at all costs - but then even if Labour win power they would still have to pick a side in the referendum. 

And by Labour picking a side I mean Corbyn.

In the last referendum Cameron was Remain, but his colleagues and cabinet members were allowed to campaign for whichever side they chose.  Labour can also do that, but it's whichever side their leader chooses that will attract attention - and picking neither side is also a choice in itself.

As for whether the GE should happen before or after any possible referendum, there will be two weeks after Parliament returns to decide this issue.  I think there's enough sway in Parliament to form a GoNU that could both delay Brexit and institute a second referendum; the leavers have now dug their position in so hard, and Boris has been such a jackass, that there's sufficient consensus amongst individual MPs on taking control.  What we need to see are more Labour MPs taking a stand on the matter.

The leave campaign promised Brexit would be easy; simple to negotiate and a smooth transition out of the EU.  After three years of chaos, that has been patently shown to be utter bollocks.  Therefore the leavers need to defend their record in a second referendum.  Their unicorn promises wont wash so well a second time round imo.
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Offline Iska

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28075 on: September 11, 2019, 12:47:58 pm »
Edward VIII is I think the right precedent for Johnson.

Offline FlashingBlade

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28076 on: September 11, 2019, 12:51:21 pm »
Interesting how Tory media play this...anti Scottish Judge approach and ' ignore it ' would be manna to Scottish independece.

Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28077 on: September 11, 2019, 12:52:37 pm »
Depends on the precedent really ..

She can. Not been done explicitly since 1834 though (William IV hated the government's policies) and obviously current Queen has spent her whole reign trying to avoid the monarchy getting involved in political controversy.

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Offline FlashingBlade

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28078 on: September 11, 2019, 12:54:29 pm »
Telegraph already has headline of ' No 10 questioning impartiality of Judges'....'England has spoken'

Offline Snail

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Re: Brexit - Pealrlimunt to be prorogued as the pro-rogues try to wreck the UK
« Reply #28079 on: September 11, 2019, 12:55:08 pm »
If this were anyone else - any other time - he'd already have resigned. Instead they're calling the courts biased. What the fuck is going on?