Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"

[ShakaHislop]

Thought this was an interesting twitter thread from the Ireland/EU viewpoint.

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1171447434687336452

So beyond being open to a UK request to go back to the original NI-only version of the backstop, the EU is only offering superficial changes (which isn't a criticism of them, to be clear)

Even if Johnson does decide to go down this path, and I think it's far from certain he will, it still doesn't address the £39b "divorce bill" and ECJ jurisdiction issues with the Withdrawal Agreement that the ERGers have.

[Zeb]

Thought this was an interesting twitter thread from the Ireland/EU viewpoint.

the various elements now being discussed are like a "soup" mainly because Number 10 is not yet thinking in a linear way

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1171447434687336452

Not really a hopeful sign for those thinking this was Plan B ready to go. Numbers in Parliament will be rough - May problem of more she tacked towards Labour votes she needed, more opposition behind her firmed up. The 'throw them out of the party' won't work so well with 20 - 30 headbangers perfectly willing to sit as Brexit Party MPs and run as them the following election. Decision when Johnson realises he'll still need a technical extension to ratify cos he decided to shut Parliament down also seems up for grabs...

Tony Connelly's reporting has been fantastic on Brexit regardless.

[ShakaHislop]

Expelled senior Tory backs second Brexit referendum and says other Conservatives will follow

Expelled Tory heavyweight Oliver Letwin has thrown his weight behind a fresh Brexit referendum and told Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson it is his best escape route from the crisis.

The former cabinet minister said there was “an increasing number of Conservative and ex-Conservative” MPs now ready to deliver a majority for a further public vote, with parliament deadlocked.

Sir Oliver said the prime minister has demanded to “take it back to the people” – but argued the general election he craves would fail break the impasse.

“There is another option of course which is to bring back a deal and ensure a majority for it by attaching it to a referendum,” he suggested.

“Why not get a deal in front of parliament? If parliament won’t otherwise accept it, why not take it to the people in a referendum and let’s see.”

Many Labour MPs have long been willing to vote for a Brexit deal provided it was rubberstamped – or rejected – in a Final Say referendum, but failed to persuade Theresa May to make the leap.

Now Sir Oliver, one of the 21 Tories sacked for last week for moving to block a no-deal Brexit, has urged her successor to swing behind the strategy.

“It’s pretty clear that there is a huge number of Labour MPs, Lib Dem MPs and SNP MPs who would vote for any reasonable deal subject to a referendum,” he told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme.

“I think there is now an increasing number of Conservatives, and ex-Conservatives, who would as well, so I think there is a majority there too.”

The former cabinet office minister acknowledged the prime minister had ruled it out, but added: “Boris has often changed his mind about many things – that’s one of his advantages that he is very flexible – so maybe he can.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-boris-johnson-latest-tory-oliver-letwin-no-deal-referendum-eu-a9098571.html

[ShakaHislop]

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1171447434687336452


Not really a hopeful sign for those thinking this was Plan B ready to go. Numbers in Parliament will be rough - May problem of more she tacked towards Labour votes she needed, more opposition behind her firmed up. The 'throw them out of the party' won't work so well with 20 - 30 headbangers perfectly willing to sit as Brexit Party MPs and run as them the following election. Decision when Johnson realises he'll still need a technical extension to ratify cos he decided to shut Parliament down also seems up for grabs...

Tony Connelly's reporting has been fantastic on Brexit regardless.

Regarding wooing Labour rebels, it's important to remember what Johnson said in his letter to Tusk a month or so ago.

Although we will remain committed to world-class environmental, product and labour standards, the laws and regulations to deliver them will potentially diverge from those of the EU. That is the point of our exit and our ability to enable this is central to our future democracy.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/826166/20190819_PM_letter_to_His_Excellency_Mr_Donald_Tusk.pdf

That doesn't sound like the prelude to making the same offer on workers rights that May supposedly did to Labour MPs just before she resigned.

[Zeb]

Regarding wooing Labour rebels, it's important to remember what Johnson said in his letter to Tusk a month or so ago.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/826166/20190819_PM_letter_to_His_Excellency_Mr_Donald_Tusk.pdf

That doesn't sound like the prelude to making the same offer on workers rights that May supposedly did to Labour MPs just before she resigned.

Aye. Think May came very close to offering Labour exactly what they said they wanted, just not in so many words, but core issue was that there's no guarantees there once we're out. Tory government in and changes its mind? Political declaration isn't binding. But think most of us know that by now, or should do. Labour MPs going to trust Johnson to keep his word after a "I delivered Brexit" election? Pull the other one, it's got bells.

[TepidT2O]

Momentum boss Jon Lansman attended tonight’s North Bermondsey branch meeting in Neil Coyle’s CLP and spoke in favour of an open selection. Lansman was defeated by 30 votes to 10.

I mean.. you couldn’t write this shit...

Th government on the edge of collapse and you’re pissing about with petty student politics games...

[Ghost Town]

Expelled senior Tory backs second Brexit referendum and says other Conservatives will follow

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-boris-johnson-latest-tory-oliver-letwin-no-deal-referendum-eu-a9098571.html

As a few of us said, once Revoke was openly talked about in Parliament, a PV suddenly becomes a moderate, reasonable choice

[Ray K]

Peston:
Very important breaking news. Which is that trade unions, in their TULO meeting with Jeremy Corbyn, have tonight endorsed the Labour leader's position that in a general election Labour should campaign for a referendum that would have a "credible leave option and remain" on the...
ballot paper. The reason this matters is that those senior members of the shadow cabinet, such as Keir Starmer, Emily Thornberry, John McDonnell and Tom Watson, who want Labour to adopt an unambiguous remain position have been defeated. "It is important that voters who want to...
leave as well as those who want to remain can vote Labour. What we've rejected is the Trumpian no-deal position of Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson". I am told all the  unions unanimously backed this position, and that it was not a Len McCluskey and Unite putsch. Watson, Thornberry and Starmer...
will be devastated, because they fear it will see large number of remain supporting Labour voters switching to support the LibDems and the Greens in the looming election. And it will probably delight Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, who would expect to campaign against opposition parties with...
significantly differing degrees of commitment to reversing the result of the 2016 referendum. But Corbyn has consistently wanted to avoid alienating Labour supporting Brexiters. @jeremycorbyn @LenMcCluskey @tom_watson @Keir_Starmer @EmilyThornberry @johnmcdonnellMP

[stevo7]

As a few of us said, once Revoke was openly talked about in Parliament, a PV suddenly becomes a moderate, reasonable choice

Quite, If you're haggling you know what you want to pay, but open with a higher bid knowing you are prepared to go lower to what you want to pay.

[oldfordie]

Peston:
Very important breaking news. Which is that trade unions, in their TULO meeting with Jeremy Corbyn, have tonight endorsed the Labour leader's position that in a general election Labour should campaign for a referendum that would have a "credible leave option and remain" on the...
ballot paper. The reason this matters is that those senior members of the shadow cabinet, such as Keir Starmer, Emily Thornberry, John McDonnell and Tom Watson, who want Labour to adopt an unambiguous remain position have been defeated. "It is important that voters who want to...
leave as well as those who want to remain can vote Labour. What we've rejected is the Trumpian no-deal position of Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson". I am told all the  unions unanimously backed this position, and that it was not a Len McCluskey and Unite putsch. Watson, Thornberry and Starmer...
will be devastated, because they fear it will see large number of remain supporting Labour voters switching to support the LibDems and the Greens in the looming election. And it will probably delight Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, who would expect to campaign against opposition parties with...
significantly differing degrees of commitment to reversing the result of the 2016 referendum. But Corbyn has consistently wanted to avoid alienating Labour supporting Brexiters. @jeremycorbyn @LenMcCluskey @tom_watson @Keir_Starmer @EmilyThornberry @johnmcdonnellMP

Ive no idea what a credible remain option means, a credible leave option means being honest on red lines, give us a clue, are we going to hear the same s..we've heard for the last 2yrs.  I take the CU condition of no trade deals for granted, it's the close alignment to the SM and all those conditions where they will become vague. voters will want to know how they stand on immigration, EU rules and regulations. EU budget payments, ECJ. then theres we will be rule takers not rule makers question. Labour are making this very hard for themselves, this would have been a great argument to make 3 yrs ago.

[oldfordie]

As a few of us said, once Revoke was openly talked about in Parliament, a PV suddenly becomes a moderate, reasonable choice

Yep, it was brought up on here months ago,if leave say no deal, remain should shout revoke. the middle ground becomes a referendum.

[Red Beret]

Peston:
Very important breaking news. Which is that trade unions, in their TULO meeting with Jeremy Corbyn, have tonight endorsed the Labour leader's position that in a general election Labour should campaign for a referendum that would have a "credible leave option and remain" on the...
ballot paper. The reason this matters is that those senior members of the shadow cabinet, such as Keir Starmer, Emily Thornberry, John McDonnell and Tom Watson, who want Labour to adopt an unambiguous remain position have been defeated. "It is important that voters who want to...
leave as well as those who want to remain can vote Labour. What we've rejected is the Trumpian no-deal position of Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson". I am told all the  unions unanimously backed this position, and that it was not a Len McCluskey and Unite putsch. Watson, Thornberry and Starmer...
will be devastated, because they fear it will see large number of remain supporting Labour voters switching to support the LibDems and the Greens in the looming election. And it will probably delight Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, who would expect to campaign against opposition parties with...
significantly differing degrees of commitment to reversing the result of the 2016 referendum. But Corbyn has consistently wanted to avoid alienating Labour supporting Brexiters. @jeremycorbyn @LenMcCluskey @tom_watson @Keir_Starmer @EmilyThornberry @johnmcdonnellMP

So they expect voters who want to Remain to vote Labour?  It seems to me, once again, that Labour is more concerned about wooing Leavers and think Remainers will have nowhere else to go but them.  The strategy seems to be "vote for us and you'll get your referendum, but if you vote Lib Dem you'll let the Tories back in and Brexit will be a certainty."

Except as others have said, pushing for a referendum and actually picking a side on it are two very different things.

[filopastry]

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1171529365848379393?s=19

[Ghost Town]

Just to be clear this is just the TULO endorsing Corbyn's current stated position, not a conference resolution or firm policy.

It's a setback but not terminal to the idea that Labour can campaign to Remain even if they are promising a referendum.

[west_london_red]

Just to be clear this is just the TULO endorsing Corbyn's current stated position, not a conference resolution or firm policy.

It's a setback but not terminal to the idea that Labour can campaign to Remain even if they are promising a referendum.

I’m confused as to why people are surprised by this. If your going to have a second Referendum Leave has to be an option, your can’t have the choice between Remain and Remain.

[The Gulleysucker]

....The government on the edge of collapse and you’re pissing about with petty student politics games...

You obviously haven't been paying attention.

This is much more important stuff to the comrades than any brexit sideshow shenanigans.

Don't you know that the real fight for purity starts here....

[west_london_red]

Newsnight voxpop in Grimsby - ‘i’ll vote Tory because they are recruiting 20,000 policemen’... FFS there is a reason why we need 20,000 policemen!

[TheShanklyGates]

Newsnight voxpop in Grimsby - ‘i’ll vote Tory because they are recruiting 20,000 policemen’... FFS there is a reason why we need 20,000 policemen!

And his vote is worth just as much as yours or mine. Makes you despair, doesn't it.

[oldfordie]

I’m confused as to why people are surprised by this. If your going to have a second Referendum Leave has to be an option, your can’t have the choice between Remain and Remain.

To be fair thats a good point, it would have won far many more people over a few years back.the questions people will want to know is How long will it take for Labour to negotiate this deal. so we are in for a long extension, will you keep on negotiating and extending until you are happy with the deal.
People will be able to tell if they come out with the same bul..
Labour are going to make a CU deal part of the deal. it's  the SM close alignment that's the problem, I would back this every day of the week to take us out of this mess but the Tories are going to rip them apart, you can just see Corbyn evading hard questions. Q  will your deal mean FOM, yes or no,etc etc.   
I would of thought the leave options either a no deal or Mays deal.

[Son of Spion]

Newsnight voxpop in Grimsby - ‘i’ll vote Tory because they are recruiting 20,000 policemen’... FFS there is a reason why we need 20,000 policemen!

Is that for real?

I cannot for the life of me get my head around the stupidity of some people.

Election coming up, so the crooks in power that have abandoned the country, its people, its services and all responsibility suddenly promise to give back just a little of what they have taken from us and some brainless idiots fall for it yet again. 

[gamble]

We just go round and round in circles. I don't see the arithmetic of this upcoming GE changing anything. The country is still split, the Tories will guarantee a brexit whilst the chance of a brexit is less certain with the other parties.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Newsnight voxpop in Grimsby - ‘i’ll vote Tory because they are recruiting 20,000 policemen’... FFS there is a reason why we need 20,000 policemen!

why Grimsby is shit reason #37452524

[Jiminy Cricket]

To be fair thats a good point, it would have won far many more people over a few years back.the questions people will want to know is How long will it take for Labour to negotiate this deal. so we are in for a long extension, will you keep on negotiating and extending until you are happy with the deal.
People will be able to tell if they come out with the same bul..
Labour are going to make a CU deal part of the deal. it's  the SM close alignment that's the problem, I would back this every day of the week to take us out of this mess but the Tories are going to rip them apart, you can just see Corbyn evading hard questions. Q  will your deal mean FOM, yes or no,etc etc.   
I would of thought the leave options either a no deal or Mays deal.

Honestly, I think the ballot should now come down to Remain vs No-Plan. There is no middle ground which might be acceptable to the majority of people.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Oh, I should add, since it is not possible to have 'No-Plan' (or whatever it would be called) as an option, just have 'Remain' as the only remaining option. Works for me!

[PaulF]

Choosing what to put on the first referendum was hard enough. Another one could take decades. And what percentage is needed to pass it...

[PaulF]

Oh, I should add, since it is not possible to have 'No-Plan' (or whatever it would be called) as an option, just have 'Remain' as the only remaining option. Works for me!

Remain, or don't leave. That should do it !

[Robinred]

Is that for real?

I cannot for the life of me get my head around the stupidity of some people.

Election coming up, so the crooks in power that have abandoned the country, its people, its services and all responsibility suddenly promise to give back just a little of what they have taken from us and some brainless idiots fall for it yet again. 

I made the point that The Shankly Gates makes, above, on the morning of the Referendum result: all my life until 2016, I believed fundamentally in the importance of universal suffrage.

That changed in 2016, on the day of the result, when the BBC 1‘0’clock news showed a vox pops piece with a middle aged woman in Sheffield city centre dancing in utter joy, chanting “we’ve got our country back” repeatedly. Nothing I’ve seen or heard since will convince me to adopt my former view. That’s entirely counter-intuitive, and against everything I thought I knew, but it’s the truth.

[oldfordie]

Honestly, I think the ballot should now come down to Remain vs No-Plan. There is no middle ground which might be acceptable to the majority of people.

You may well be right but at least give voters a choice so all arguments arerespected, it will have to be a 2 stage referendum.how it works us up for debate, maybe all voters vote on the leave option first, Mays deal or a no deal winner faces the remain choice at a later date, this would still give all voters a choice on the leave option,  I prefer that to a 3 question vote of remain , no deal,Mays deal as am certain it would result in a remain v no deal referendum.

[killer-heels]

Choosing what to put on the first referendum was hard enough. Another one could take decades. And what percentage is needed to pass it...

Would be fucking mad to have No Deal on the ballot paper. If it is to be a no deal, let it be rammed home by MP’s, not the dickhead public.

[killer-heels]

Newsnight voxpop in Grimsby - ‘i’ll vote Tory because they are recruiting 20,000 policemen’... FFS there is a reason why we need 20,000 policemen!

Well most of the public are fucking idiots so most vox pops throw up idiotic responses. Another old bint said Johnson was trustworthy. Fuck off you old dickhead.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Would be fucking mad to have No Deal on the ballot paper. If it is to be a no deal, let it be rammed home by MP’s, not the dickhead public.

Yes, but there is no WA-type in the offing. So, what else would you offer? I know that 'No-Plan' is not acceptable either (the option must be something concrete after all). So, 'No-Plan' will have to mean whatever the government can cobble together by a set-in-stone leave date. A difficult sell.

[stevo7]

Newsnight voxpop in Grimsby - ‘i’ll vote Tory because they are recruiting 20,000 policemen’... FFS there is a reason why we need 20,000 policemen!

Maybe he wants to be a policeman. Was he suitable material?
Sorry haven't seen Newsnight yet, not loading on iplayer.

[FlashingBlade]

On the shocking state of the knob head high street vox pops on BBC over past couple of years I have a theory...it's not malicious by the BBC..just that they want a vox pop to reflect news of the day...for evening news and newsnight....so message goes out to visit people shopping and ask questions...thing is who is walking around town centres in midweek afternoons?...Well I will tell you who isn't , working people , higher educated people.

The average age of a BBC viewer is 61. BBC is under pressure and will lose itself as we know it in 10 years. Its alienating so many of its audience by its Brexit coverage . I simply don't have faith in it anymore. It's loading the dice.


As a foot note have you seen how many WW2 related programmes on BBC last few months...these where planned months ago possibly when thought we would have left EU
.are these programmes to lift the spirits to invoke ' The Dunkirk Spirit'.....cos they assumed rationing had kicked in

[Jiminy Cricket]

Well most of the public are fucking idiots so most vox pops throw up idiotic responses. Another old bint said Johnson was trustworthy. Fuck off you old dickhead.

(Semi-)serious question: what is/was your Gran like? I don't propose to attempt psychoanalyse you, but FFS. Is it just old people you hate, or is it everyone?

[Machae]

How about they charge the people who want Brexit, let them make up the loss for their stupidity. I dont see why I have to fucking subsidise their xenophobia

[ShakaHislop]

Newsnight voxpop in Grimsby - ‘i’ll vote Tory because they are recruiting 20,000 policemen’... FFS there is a reason why we need 20,000 policemen!

Up to half a million people will have to apply to become police officers over the next three years in order to meet Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson’s 20,000 target, a senior officer has said.

Martin Hewitt, chair of the National Police Chiefs’ Council (NPCC), warned that because of the number of officers who retire or leave every year, 50,000 new officers may have to be hired in total.

Speaking at the Police Superintendents’ Association conference, he said that only one in every 10 applicants currently becomes a police officer in England and Wales, meaning 500,000 hopefuls would be required at the current rate.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/boris-johnson-police-officers-recruit-martin-hewitt-a9099706.html

[Son of Spion]

(Semi-)serious question: what is/was your Gran like? I don't propose to attempt psychoanalyse you, but FFS. Is it just old people you hate, or is it everyone?

Check out her custom title. 

Talking of Grans, my Gran absolutely idolised Thatcher, for reasons I could never fathom. 

[oldfordie]

Newsnight voxpop in Grimsby - ‘i’ll vote Tory because they are recruiting 20,000 policemen’... FFS there is a reason why we need 20,000 policemen!

News Thump, Fred from Grimsby says ‘i’ll vote Tory because they are recruiting 20,000 policemen’...

[Trada]

Newsnight voxpop in Grimsby - ‘i’ll vote Tory because they are recruiting 20,000 policemen’... FFS there is a reason why we need 20,000 policemen!

I always mute vox pops they do my head in, who knows how many they did to get the ones they used to fit the News Story they want to tell, they may have had people saying I will vote Labour because I can't stand Johnson, it's like before the last election it was all doom and gloom and hardly any Vox pops were people who said they would vote Labour. To match the Tory landslide opinion polls.

New poll out last night.

Britain Elects
‏ @britainelects

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 30% (-1)
LAB: 29% (+2)
LDEM: 17% (-3)
BREX: 13% (-)
GRN: 4% (+1)

via @ComRes, 06 - 08 Sep

[Machae]

Well most of the public are fucking idiots so most vox pops throw up idiotic responses. Another old bint said Johnson was trustworthy. Fuck off you old dickhead.

Haha, classic. Gonna miss your old people rants when this is all over