Topic: Brexit - doesn't really seem to be a very good idea does it? (*)

[oldfordie]

The keyword was 'mindset'; and that 'they allowed the Nazis to take over'. I did not write that Brexiteers are Nazis. Important distinctions.

If people are willing to accept the demonetisation of foreigners and 'others', that's unacceptable and leads (as it has done in the past) to a whole lot of trouble (and not just for the victimised). If people are willing to accept the crazy rantings of their leader, spewing hate against 'others' (a la Trump), that's how dictatorships start. OK, May is not Trump. And Forage (as much is he'd like to be ) is not Trump either. But they all, and the people who blindly vote for them and their policies, are of the same blinkered mindset.

Yeah, I understand the distinction your making. your not calling them Nazis, your saying they used similar tactics the Nazis used to stir up hatred, in this case EU immigrants. I still remember Farages breaking point poster, news paper printed the picture in the morning. Thomas Mair killed a Joe Cox MP a few hours later.
A identical sort of picture the Nazis used to stir up hatred against the Jews. always be aware of the tactics used to incite hatred against other races.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Yeah, I understand the distinction your making. your not calling them Nazis, your saying they used similar tactics the Nazis used to stir up hatred, in this case EU immigrants. I still remember Farages breaking point poster, news paper printed the picture in the morning. Thomas Mair killed a Joe Cox MP a few hours later.
A identical sort of picture the Nazis used to stir up hatred against the Jews. always be aware of the tactics used to incite hatred against other races.

Of course, I meant 'demonisation', not 'demonetisation' - my fault for relying upon auto-correct. Now corrected in the original.

It is not as though most Germans woke up one day and thought, you know what, yes, it is all the fault of the Jews and if it should lead to genocide, so be it. No, there was the slow dissemination of disinformation and scapegoating for years. Nazi Germany stemmed from an uncritical eye and a willingness to look for simple (even if obviously wrong) reasons for their predicament by the population at large. Most people who supported Hitler did not set out with the idea of mass-murder. I see no meaningful difference between many (far from all) ordinary Germans back then and Brexiteers and Trumpsters. In the US, now, most Trump supporters would not actually countenance genocide either. But, isn't it interesting how so many of them have decided that Roy Moore, irrespective of the very credible accusations against him, is a wholly more preferable choice over a Democrat. The insidious shift to accepting the wholly hideous is happening right in front of our eyes. I'll say it again: Brexiteers are of the exact same mindset as those who let Nazis take over Germany.

[oldfordie]

Of course, I meant 'demonisation', not 'demonetisation' - my fault for relying upon auto-correct. Now corrected in the original.

It is not as though most Germans woke up one day and thought, you know what, yes, it is all the fault of the Jews and if it should lead to genocide, so be it. No, there was the slow dissemination of disinformation and scapegoating for years. Nazi Germany stemmed from an uncritical eye and a willingness to look for simple (even if obviously wrong) reasons for their predicament by the population at large. Most people who supported Hitler did not set out with the idea of mass-murder. I see no meaningful difference between many (far from all) ordinary Germans back then and Brexiteers and Trumpsters. In the US, now, most Trump supporters would not actually countenance genocide either. But, isn't it interesting how so many of them have decided that Roy Moore, irrespective of the very credible accusations against him, is a wholly more preferable choice over a Democrat. The insidious shift to accepting the wholly hideous is happening right in front of our eyes. I'll say it again: Brexiteers are of the exact same mindset as those who let Nazis take over Germany.

Nigel Frottage is a horrible racist, he has been all his life from his school days, Frottage is a nasty piece of work. I will not call him a Nazi but I am certain he's used similar tactics used by the Naizis to stir up hatred against immigrants, that's the main point here is he has taken a leaf out of the Nazi play book to incite irrational hatred against EU immigrants and people wonder why leave voters are so anti immigration.
I don't think most leave voters against immigration understand what they voted for when they voted to leave the EU, I believe most of the immigration they wanted to stop comes from outside the EU.
A ignorance Frottage understood and played on to incite hatred with his breaking point poster.

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

Of course, I meant 'demonisation', not 'demonetisation' - my fault for relying upon auto-correct. Now corrected in the original.

It is not as though most Germans woke up one day and thought, you know what, yes, it is all the fault of the Jews and if it should lead to genocide, so be it. No, there was the slow dissemination of disinformation and scapegoating for years. Nazi Germany stemmed from an uncritical eye and a willingness to look for simple (even if obviously wrong) reasons for their predicament by the population at large. Most people who supported Hitler did not set out with the idea of mass-murder. I see no meaningful difference between many (far from all) ordinary Germans back then and Brexiteers and Trumpsters. In the US, now, most Trump supporters would not actually countenance genocide either. But, isn't it interesting how so many of them have decided that Roy Moore, irrespective of the very credible accusations against him, is a wholly more preferable choice over a Democrat. The insidious shift to accepting the wholly hideous is happening right in front of our eyes. I'll say it again: Brexiteers are of the exact same mindset as those who let Nazis take over Germany.

Good post.

You have the time to see the patterns when a country reverses itself and starts regressing in certain areas, rarely are they short term events. The likes of Iraq and Syria, within the lifetime of some on here, were fairly liberal, accessible societies. The fall, the rot starts with the mind, and if certain movements get enough momentum, and the balanced, thinking ones don't have the power to react, a new direction is set.

[armchair-fan]

Nazi Germany stemmed from an uncritical eye and a willingness to look for simple (even if obviously wrong) reasons for their predicament by the population at large. Most people who supported Hitler did not set out with the idea of mass-murder. I see no meaningful difference between many (far from all) ordinary Germans back then and Brexiteers and Trumpsters...The insidious shift to accepting the wholly hideous is happening right in front of our eyes. I'll say it again: Brexiteers are of the exact same mindset as those who let Nazis take over Germany.

...that's the main point here is he has taken a leaf out of the Nazi play book to incite irrational hatred against EU immigrants and people wonder why leave voters are so anti immigration.

You support the imposition of an overarching European superstate which ignores any democratic vote that goes against it, that imposes its will on small nations like Greece simply in order to ensure the greatest economic benefit for the German Volk.  Decisions are made by diktat by unaccountable men thousands of miles away.  The only resistance to German hegemony comes from the brave Russians and plucky Brits...

Am I doing this right?

No, because it's utter dogshit, the exact sort of nonsense F arage, Johnson and the swivel eyed Eurosceptic loons tend to come out with.  It shows a complete lack of understanding of the utter depravity of 20th century European fascism and the circumstances from which it arose, as well as a disrespect for those who suffered under it and fought against it.

However you dress it up, invoking the Nazis demonstrates that you've entirely lost your head on this topic and that you've lost the argument.

[Fortneef]

Why drag Hitler in to things when theres a perfectly good Mussolini to use instead?

[classycarra]

Am I doing this right?

No, generally.

However you dress it up, invoking the Nazis demonstrates that you've entirely lost your head on this topic and that you've lost the argument.

I'm not sure you're aware of the argument you're having, but you've certainly not won it.

You don't seem to have spotted that he's talking about the population at large, in the run up to the Nazis taking over, rather than the Nazi state

[oldfordie]

You support the imposition of an overarching European superstate which ignores any democratic vote that goes against it, that imposes its will on small nations like Greece simply in order to ensure the greatest economic benefit for the German Volk.  Decisions are made by diktat by unaccountable men thousands of miles away.  The only resistance to German hegemony comes from the brave Russians and plucky Brits...

Am I doing this right?

No, because it's utter dogshit, the exact sort of nonsense F arage, Johnson and the swivel eyed Eurosceptic loons tend to come out with.  It shows a complete lack of understanding of the utter depravity of 20th century European fascism and the circumstances from which it arose, as well as a disrespect for those who suffered under it and fought against it.

However you dress it up, invoking the Nazis demonstrates that you've entirely lost your head on this topic and that you've lost the argument.

It's quiet clear you don't understand the difference between politics and the tactics of far right racists like Frottage to stir up irrational hatred of immigrants. if the far right can create a image in peoples minds of Immigrants as a swarm of low life gypsies plundering our country, create a image were we feel under attack from this swarm, create a image of these immigrants as nothing more than vermin then people soon forget they are human beings. once people forget the are just people like ourselves then they will loose all compassion and empathy, they will allow them to be treated inhumanly with a clear conscience.

[Currywurst]

It's quiet clear you don't understand the difference between politics and the tactics of far right racists like Frottage to stir up irrational hatred of immigrants. if the far right can create a image in peoples minds of Immigrants as a swarm of low life gypsies plundering our country, create a image were we feel under attack from this swarm, create a image of these immigrants as nothing more than vermin then people soon forget they are human beings. once people forget the are just people like ourselves then they will loose all compassion and empathy, they will allow them to be treated inhumanly with a clear conscience.

I've said this before, but what really annoys me is when immigration is mentioned, people say to my German wife "Oh, but we don't mean you, dear. You're lovely and we want you to stay. It's all those other immigrants coming here taking our jobs and houses or being given benefits." They pretend to be aghast at all the Home Office-related shit we've been going through, shake their heads and say it shouldn't be happening. But they're the fools who voted for it to happen! As others have said, in the 1930s every German had a favourite Jew (doctor, teacher or whatever), who they wanted to be exempted from the general atmosphere of anti-semitism. It's so mealy-mouthed and I'd rather they were just honest about their prejudices. However lovely they find my wife, she's still caught up in the general shit-storm, but it's a salve to their conscience to tell us they don't mean us personally.

On a slightly different tack, it's becoming impossible to use rationality to speak to ardent Leavers. If you point out that EU citiziens in the Uk contribute more in income tax than the whole of Wales and Northern Ireland, they just say "Oh, that's interesting. But we want them out because they're leeching off our country." What they really mean is that they don't care about logic and are far more comfortable with blind faith and sweeping generalisations. It's much too hard work to actually look into the facts, far easier to parrot Express headlines or 140 character tweets reducing complex realities to easily remembered slogans.

This is why I think we're heading towards the hardest no-deal Brexit, as the alternative would be to engage with uncomfortable truths and people are just too lazy to bother. Their response is "Let's just crack on with it and see what happens", imagining that some intrinsic value in "Britishness" will see us through. I increasingly hear that people are "bored with Brexit" and just want someone else to deal with it for them. It's hard not to despair.

[Libertine]

Bloody hell, Corbyn asks about Brexit at PMQs.

Making a mess of it of course, but pleasantly surprised that he's finally addressing the key issue of our times.

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

It's quiet clear you don't understand the difference between politics and the tactics of far right racists like Frottage to stir up irrational hatred of immigrants. if the far right can create a image in peoples minds of Immigrants as a swarm of low life gypsies plundering our country, create a image were we feel under attack from this swarm, create a image of these immigrants as nothing more than vermin then people soon forget they are human beings. once people forget the are just people like ourselves then they will loose all compassion and empathy, they will allow them to be treated inhumanly with a clear conscience.

Yep. It's more an analysis of the mentality of people.

[oldfordie]

I've said this before, but what really annoys me is when immigration is mentioned, people say to my German wife "Oh, but we don't mean you, dear. You're lovely and we want you to stay. It's all those other immigrants coming here taking our jobs and houses or being given benefits." They pretend to be aghast at all the Home Office-related shit we've been going through, shake their heads and say it shouldn't be happening. But they're the fools who voted for it to happen! As others have said, in the 1930s every German had a favourite Jew (doctor, teacher or whatever), who they wanted to be exempted from the general atmosphere of anti-semitism. It's so mealy-mouthed and I'd rather they were just honest about their prejudices. However lovely they find my wife, she's still caught up in the general shit-storm, but it's a salve to their conscience to tell us they don't mean us personally.

On a slightly different tack, it's becoming impossible to use rationality to speak to ardent Leavers. If you point out that EU citiziens in the Uk contribute more in income tax than the whole of Wales and Northern Ireland, they just say "Oh, that's interesting. But we want them out because they're leeching off our country." What they really mean is that they don't care about logic and are far more comfortable with blind faith and sweeping generalisations. It's much too hard work to actually look into the facts, far easier to parrot Express headlines or 140 character tweets reducing complex realities to easily remembered slogans.

This is why I think we're heading towards the hardest no-deal Brexit, as the alternative would be to engage with uncomfortable truths and people are just too lazy to bother. Their response is "Let's just crack on with it and see what happens", imagining that some intrinsic value in "Britishness" will see us through. I increasingly hear that people are "bored with Brexit" and just want someone else to deal with it for them. It's hard not to despair.

Ive heard that said a lot, we dont mind you.it's all the others we don't like.
The only reason the Nazis have been raised is to understand the tactics they used and how similar tactics are being used in this country, am certainly not saying half the country have turned into Nazis, am saying many have fell for similar properganda.
The German population 1933+ didn't suddenly all turn into monsters ,if we want to learn from history then we have to try and understand what happened. rational argument and debate didn't give people a clear conscience to stand by and watch so much cruelty inflicted on others.
Properganda like Farages brought this about, pictures and words warping peoples minds did this.

[SlowRap]

There are still remainers calling people who disagree with them Nazis, racists, etc. It didn't help our argument (I voted in) during the election it certainly isn't helping now - it isn't constructive at all. Even if the leave voters are all racists we need to think of what can be done to get them to vote remain? Calling out their racism isn't going to do it - I really hope 52% of this country isn't racist/nazi.

Here's my prediction of what will happen, as soon as people start feeling the real annoyance of being out of the EU and I'm talking about queuing in the airports and paying import tax then they'll start to get really annoyed and seek change - seeing banks and research labs doesn't affect your general citizen.

[killer-heels]

There are still remainers calling people who disagree with them Nazis, racists, etc. It didn't help our argument (I voted in) during the election it certainly isn't helping now - it isn't constructive at all. Even if the leave voters are all racists we need to think of what can be done to get them to vote remain? Calling out their racism isn't going to do it - I really hope 52% of this country isn't racist/nazi.

Here's my prediction of what will happen, as soon as people start feeling the real annoyance of being out of the EU and I'm talking about queuing in the airports and paying import tax then they'll start to get really annoyed and seek change - seeing banks and research labs doesn't affect your general citizen.

I agree about when people will start to feel the affect. But by then it will be too late so who really gives a shit if they have changed their mind?

[So… Howard Philips]

There are still remainers calling people who disagree with them Nazis, racists, etc. It didn't help our argument (I voted in) during the election it certainly isn't helping now - it isn't constructive at all. Even if the leave voters are all racists we need to think of what can be done to get them to vote remain? Calling out their racism isn't going to do it - I really hope 52% of this country isn't racist/nazi.

Here's my prediction of what will happen, as soon as people start feeling the real annoyance of being out of the EU and I'm talking about queuing in the airports and paying import tax then they'll start to get really annoyed and seek change - seeing banks and research labs doesn't affect your general citizen.

But just imagine the joy of all the residents of Kent when they can swan off on their jolly booze cruises to buy cheap French plonk and brandy from warehouses in Calais?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

[DJBrenton]

[PaulF]

Multiyork going under with the loss of 500 jobs. The list of reasons can easily be summed up as brexit

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Multiyork going under with the loss of 500 jobs. The list of reasons can easily be summed up as brexit

they probably buy most of their materials from abroad, margin squeeze etc

[PaulF]

they probably buy most of their materials from abroad, margin squeeze etc

Yep, plus uncertainty and falling pound.
Never good to lose your job, but right before Christmas too 😢

[Trada]

So more was given to Brexit yesterday £3b that was given to the NHS £2.8b.

And they are saying that £3b is for things like lawyers and bureaucrats etc.

[Libertine]

https://twitter.com/marcusleroux/status/933660731203117057

[classycarra]

So more was given to Brexit yesterday £3b that was given to the NHS £2.8b.

And they are saying that £3b is for things like lawyers and bureaucrats etc.

Massive waste of limited resources.

You must be annoyed that Corbyn didn't give a shit, and pretended to campaign to remain, right? Then whipped his MPs to vote in line with the Tories on Brexit

[oldfordie]

 A few Irish politicians were saying the Tories never really listened to their arguments on the NI Border problem last year.
The Tories agreed to negotiate a solution for the NI Broder in the first stage of talks. a few weeks into the talks they asked the EU if they could defer the NI border problem to the 2nd stage.our future relationship.the EU refused, we agreed to solve this problem in the first stage of talks,we have no solution to the problem.
The Tories never listened to the Irish,  this problem was raised before the referendum. it hasn't just sprung up out of nowhere. the Tories agreed to negotiate NI border in 1st stage and not long into the talks they realize they haven't got a solution.
The fact the Tories are now pleading with the EU long after the negotiations started shows they never understood the problems before the negotiations begun.
The EU have told us some of our senior politicians involved with Brexit didn't know the difference between the SM+CU. the NI border problem shows they didn't even understand the NI border problem.
 The only way we are going to move onto the 2nd stage of talks is to defer the NI border problem, out of our hands, we will have to plead with the EU for this to happen, all down to incompetence and Tory arrogance, we should never have agreed to the NI border problem in the first round of talks, the fact the Tories did shows just how ill prepared they were for these negotiations.
I think the NI border will be deferred to the 2nd stage, no other options now. that doesent make the problem go away though, no deal means a NI border.

[Robinred]

Massive waste of limited resources.

You must be annoyed that Corbyn didn't give a shit, and pretended to campaign to remain, right? Then whipped his MPs to vote in line with the Tories on Brexit

You know better than to expect an answer. Trada doesn’t do “q&a”

[Trada]

British cities that appied to be European city of culture have been told by the EU they have to withdraw from it because the UK wont be in the single market in 2023.

They are not happy.

[Trada]

Massive waste of limited resources.

You must be annoyed that Corbyn didn't give a shit, and pretended to campaign to remain, right? Then whipped his MPs to vote in line with the Tories on Brexit

For a start Labour would have given more to the NHS anyway could easily add at least the £1.5b bribe the Tories gave to the DUP

The Tories always find the magic money tree when they need it but the money for the poor and the disabled seem to be on the high branches that they cant reach.

[classycarra]

British cities that appied to be European city of culture have been told by the EU they have to withdraw from it because the UK wont be in the single market in 2023.

They are not happy.

Some may view this as EU being overly harsh to make a point of punishing the UK, but to be fair I think it's a pretty gentle reminder that if we leave the EU (incl. single market and EEA) in the manner that looks likely, then we can only dream of the Norway model (that Leavers told us was the worst possible outcome of voting leave).

[Libertine]

British cities that appied to be European city of culture have been told by the EU they have to withdraw from it because the UK wont be in the single market in 2023.

They are not happy.

Rules clearly state that "According to the rules adopted by the European Parliament and the Council (Decision 445/2014), this action is not open to third countries except candidate countries and European Free Trade Association/European Economic Area countries.", but of course the Brexiters are still complaining about not getting special treatment again.

Mind you, wouldn't rule out the possibility that the UK is a candidate country again by 2023.....

[classycarra]

For a start Labour would have given more to the NHS anyway could easily add at least the £1.5b bribe the Tories gave to the DUP

Is this imaginary world where Labour got elected this year without a coalition one where the leadership opposed Brexit and campaigned to remain, and then opposed the May governments pursuit of a Hard Brexit?

[classycarra]

Mind you, wouldn't rule out the possibility that the UK is a candidate country again by 2023.....

If we do continue on this path that this government and it's opposition are pursuing for us then, again, being a candidate country that soon after is an absolutely ideal dreamworld situation (and I hope is the case) compared to the likelihood we'll be locked out for decades.

[oldfordie]

Cant we just have a UK capital of culture instead. Sunderland must be in the running surely.
Redevelop the old Nissan plant into a lovely park, well a open field really.

[Ray K]

https://twitter.com/marcusleroux/status/933660731203117057

The even weirder thing about it is that Enda Kenny wasn't Taoiseach in July. Varadkar took over in June.

[Craig S]

Cant we just have a UK capital of culture instead. Sunderland must be in the running surely.
Redevelop the old Nissan plant into a lovely park, well a open field really.

Already got one. It's Hull...

 Stop sniggering.

[killer-heels]

British cities that appied to be European city of culture have been told by the EU they have to withdraw from it because the UK wont be in the single market in 2023.

They are not happy.

Oh dear. A lot of powerpoint presentations and posters will have to be binned.

[Trada]

Oh dear. A lot of powerpoint presentations and posters will have to be binned.

I think they are saying some spent £100,000s on the bid because they were told so late maybe it will be part of the talks now.

[oldfordie]

Already got one. It's Hull...

 Stop sniggering.

Am taking the piss out of them, they deserve it.

[classycarra]

I think they are saying some spent £100,000s on the bid because they were told so late maybe it will be part of the talks now.

No chance.

[killer-heels]

I think they are saying some spent £100,000s on the bid because they were told so late maybe it will be part of the talks now.

Ha. Absolutely no chance they are getting that money back.

[cowtownred]

The even weirder thing about it is that Enda Kenny wasn't Taoiseach in July. Varadkar took over in June.

Yeah, looks fake. Surely it should also be Davis' rather than Davis's?