Topic: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General

[Yorkykopite]

Except that it's reliant on entirely subjective judgement of the frame that represents the moment the ball was played. Does the proposed semi-automated system address that? Or is it still based on the frame the VAR chooses?

That's a good question. I would like to know the answer to that.

And you identify the elephant in the room. Choosing between two consecutive frames is not a science. Both choices are often wrong. The cameras simply can't run at the required speed to make a foolproof judgement.

I've long thought this is one of the weakest links in the whole unstable VAR chain. Liverpool actually benefitted against Villa because VAR chose to freeze the frame before the pass had been released which meant that Joe Gomez was judged to be not offside. But there are other times - Mane v Everton springs to mind - where it looked like VAR had chosen to freeze the action too late.

It amazes me that this isn't scrutinised more than it is. VAR goes to extreme - laughably extreme - lengths to draw its stupid lines to see whether someone's whiskers are offside. But it is absurdly casual about freezing the frame.

[rob1966]

Except that it's reliant on entirely subjective judgement of the frame that represents the moment the ball was played. Does the proposed semi-automated system address that? Or is it still based on the frame the VAR chooses?

The semi auto AI uses two systems and typically, the PGMOL has chosen the least effective one

The system used at the W/C and I believe will be in use in the Euros, uses an Adidas ball with a sensor in the middle that detects the exact moment the ball is kicked. The PL system doesn't use this ball, so it's all done by cameras, although the AI compensates.. About 12 cameras, ith a 50fps rate (fucking too slow) track all 22 players using 29 data points on the body, so they should know where a player is at all times. When the ball is played, the AI then checks all the positions and if it detects an attacker offside, it flags it. The VAR official then reviews the image to check that the tech hasn't got it wrong and that the kick point and position match.

Personally I want the Adidas ball as this can be tracked to which player receives the ball and is more accurate.

[lobsterboy]

I guess its a bit harder for PGMOL to cheat when there is a sensor in the ball.

[Lusty]

The semi auto AI uses two systems and typically, the PGMOL has chosen the least effective one

The system used at the W/C and I believe will be in use in the Euros, uses an Adidas ball with a sensor in the middle that detects the exact moment the ball is kicked. The PL system doesn't use this ball, so it's all done by cameras, although the AI compensates.. About 12 cameras, ith a 50fps rate (fucking too slow) track all 22 players using 29 data points on the body, so they should know where a player is at all times. When the ball is played, the AI then checks all the positions and if it detects an attacker offside, it flags it. The VAR official then reviews the image to check that the tech hasn't got it wrong and that the kick point and position match.

Personally I want the Adidas ball as this can be tracked to which player receives the ball and is more accurate.

I'd love to know how they're training the AI.  Because if they're using data from the current system then we're fucked.  It's just going to give us the same wrong decisions but more quickly.

[Enders]

Liverpool actually benefitted against Villa because VAR chose to freeze the frame before the pass had been released which meant that Joe Gomez was judged to be not offside.

That's the rule in the LotG though:

'First point of contact of the 'play' or 'touch' of the ball'

https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-11---offside

[Yorkykopite]

That's the rule in the LotG though:

'First point of contact of the 'play' or 'touch' of the ball'

https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-11---offside

Ok, so Joe was onside and Sadio was indeed offside.

Seems mad though doesn't it? Contrary to the way the game has always been understood. A 'caressed' pass is obviously different to a 'stabbed' one. In one the foot is in contact with the ball for a long time. In the other the foot's first contact with the ball is also its last one. I'm guessing therefore that VAR has ignored a century of practice for the crude reason that the technology can detect 'first contact' but not the moment the ball is released.

[Knight]

I take all the points about the camera framing - I'm not aware of the new tech so I should state I'd only keep the offsides if the new system is able to accurately find the correct moments of play.

to be honest even if VAR rules out the odd goal because an offside is given because a frame was a few milliseconds out of sync, its better than a clearly offside goal being given by a linesman without VAR. At least any incorrect calls will be fractional. Without VAR there will be many goals ruled out/goals given by linesmen which VAR should easily pick up.

I completely understand the argument of getting rid, and I'm not totally against removing it. I just believe if used better, although it won't be perfect it's better than the alternative.

The old offside rule, stuff about attackers gaining an ‘advantage’, was pretty accurately judged by linesman. Sure they sometimes got it wrong. But normally they got it right. And it was a standard whixh made sense to people, rather this absurd system nowadays which tries to define offside down to millimetres whilst the technology is nowhere near accurate enough to assess millimetres. It’s ridiculous. What’s more, even if it was 100% accurate it’s a standard that bears no resemblance to the game as it’s actually played. offside should be a rule with a purpose, that is it defines the way the game can be played in order to make it a better game. It has absolutely no need of adjudicating down to millimetres. That’s just a level of pedantry which only frustrates everyone involved.

[Paisley79]

How many times do you see this scenario & it's so frustrating:

Attacker goes through on goal. He could be offside. The linesman hasn't flagged as, per instructions, he has to let play develop & VAR will check.
The attacker doesn't score, instead the defending team have cleared the ball for a corner.
Instead of going back for the original offside, the corner stands. It is NEVER checked in this instance.
The attacking team now have an unfair advantage.

Drives me mad

[slaphead]

Of all people, I heard Colin Wanker talking some sense about the whole thing. It's the refs are the issue and they're not good enough for Championship level never mind Premier League. It's hard for the refs in Stockley Park to make the same "mistakes" as the on field refs, but they do. They get 85/90% of stuff right but that's nowhere near good enough for this level, and its the 10/15%that the refs don't seen capable, or want to fix. 
As many have said, great stuff from Wolves. They probably won't get what they want but hopefully they'll get what's needed

[Lusty]

The old offside rule, stuff about attackers gaining an ‘advantage’, was pretty accurately judged by linesman. Sure they sometimes got it wrong. But normally they got it right. And it was a standard whixh made sense to people, rather this absurd system nowadays which tries to define offside down to millimetres whilst the technology is nowhere near accurate enough to assess millimetres. It’s ridiculous. What’s more, even if it was 100% accurate it’s a standard that bears no resemblance to the game as it’s actually played. offside should be a rule with a purpose, that is it defines the way the game can be played in order to make it a better game. It has absolutely no need of adjudicating down to millimetres. That’s just a level of pedantry which only frustrates everyone involved.

I would love to see a proper study where they analyse the two frames that could have been chosen for the offside, calculate how far the attacker moved in that time, and figure out how often the VAR is likely getting it right.  Then compare that against the accuracy of a linesman on his own without technology.  I bet the percentages are not that different.

The problem with the human is the occasional howler, but VAR generally errs on the side of the defending team because of how the frames are chosen, so I think we're getting more goals incorrectly disallowed now than we were before.

[Avens]

The problem is that the technology doesn't know whether you're in front of the last defender or not.  Honestly the conversation around VAR needs to change to acknowledge that.  The margin of error is huge.

This is why I've argued for a long time that the check should be a rolling process. Roll between the possible frames and have the lines move with the players (semi automated would help this, I think). If the lines support the on field decision within that margin for error the decision stands. If it doesn't, it's overturned. It would maybe mean the "moment" that is used is over half a second, rather than the 1/24th of a second the frozen frame currently offers.

[HomesickRed]

VAR judges should be a last resort.
Asking for a ref to review should be at the request of players / manager AND NOT another referee who may have a vested interest, or be trying to protect his mate.
The ref alone decides, except if offside challenged. That can have lines drawn by VAR.
Two challenges per game, with live audio to the ground.

[Fromola]

Is there a middle ground ?  Something along the lines (pardon the pun) limiting it to automated offside decision making, and penalty reviews ?  Leave it at that ?

It's an utter shitshow on penalty reviews though and so subjective and inconsistent.

Not just PGMOL. Look at Scotland. The Rangers right back scores about 20 pens a season with the aid of VAR. The penalty rate is ridiculous in CL post Var as well.

[Fromola]

Re offsides - the tech literally doesn't work. Camera frames aren't accurate enough to discern when the ball leaves the foot.

And how can it be deemed to work when it takes 5 minutes to check? And if its taking that long they're only guessing anyway.

[fowlermagic]

If VAR was gotten rid of today, no one would be posting on page
653 of
"why we should have VAR" in a couple of years time that's for sure. Just get on with the game as it was, don't spend hours discussing if that was on side or not n maybe we can celebrate goals in real time again.

[JRed]

I'd love to know how they're training the AI.  Because if they're using data from the current system then we're fucked.  It's just going to give us the same wrong decisions but more quickly.

It’s just a few baldy mancs in a room programming it. It will be fine.

[gjr1]

If VAR was gotten rid of today, no one would be posting on page
653 of
"why we should have VAR" in a couple of years time that's for sure. Just get on with the game as it was, don't spend hours discussing if that was on side or not n maybe we can celebrate goals in real time again.

Great post.

And that is why VAR is so fucked.

Lino or ref get it wrong so be it….

At least supporters will be able to celebrate or not when shit happens.

Rest is just jobs for the boys.

[JRed]

Great post.

And that is why VAR is so fucked.

Lino or ref get it wrong so be it….

At least supporters will be able to celebrate or not when shit happens.

Rest is just jobs for the boys.

Yeah, there will be even more inexplicable decisions from the same corrupt officials but hey ho, let’s just get on with it.

[Fromola]

EFL copes fine without it. Top flight football was better without it for 130 years.

It was pundit bores who would call for video technology, dissecting every decision for views. If technology is proven to work then use it but it has to be quick to be practical like with goal-line.

VAR was sold as being there to correct howlers and it can't even do that (we can point to several this season alone). But it can spend 5 minutes trying to work out if a goal is offside

Put it this way. How many fans of EFL clubs would be happy if it was announced VAR is coming in next season? Not many. Football fans hate VAR. It's for the technocrats, not the passion and emotion of the game.

[rob1966]

EFL copes fine without it. Top flight football was better without it for 130 years.

It was pundit bores who would call for video technology, dissecting every decision for views. If technology is proven to work then use it but it has to be quick to be practical like with goal-line.

VAR was sold as being there to correct howlers and it can't even do that (we can point to several this season alone). But it can spend 5 minutes trying to work out if a goal is offside

Put it this way. How many fans of EFL clubs would be happy if it was announced VAR is coming in next season? Not many. Football fans hate VAR. It's for the technocrats, not the passion and emotion of the game.

Do you actually realise it's humans fucking this up and not the technology?

Just a reminder of what happened pre VAR

[HeartAndSoul]

VAR judges should be a last resort.
Asking for a ref to review should be at the request of players / manager AND NOT another referee who may have a vested interest, or be trying to protect his mate.
The ref alone decides, except if offside challenged. That can have lines drawn by VAR.
Two challenges per game, with live audio to the ground.

Even the lines is ridiculous. Armpits and millimetres should be given to the attacking team. It’s a joke when it’s that micromanaged.

[Fromola]

Do you actually realise it's humans fucking this up and not the technology?

Just a reminder of what happened pre VAR

That's one incident over 10 years ago. Whether you have VAR or not you'll have fuck ups. I've felt more regularly screwed over since VAR came than in the decades before combined. I'd say that's universal with fans because it kills the emotion of the game as well.


Yes it's humans using it and fucking up. Scrap it and wait for AI tech that actually works. Automated offsides will come in (semi automated in use now).

[Barneylfc∗]

Do you actually realise it's humans fucking this up and not the technology?

Just a reminder of what happened pre VAR

Here's a reminder of what happened post VAR 

[Enders]

Ok, so Joe was onside and Sadio was indeed offside.

Seems mad though doesn't it? Contrary to the way the game has always been understood. A 'caressed' pass is obviously different to a 'stabbed' one. In one the foot is in contact with the ball for a long time. In the other the foot's first contact with the ball is also its last one. I'm guessing therefore that VAR has ignored a century of practice for the crude reason that the technology can detect 'first contact' but not the moment the ball is released.

Yep, it maybe highlights a common misconception that whether a player is in offside position or not is based on when the ball is no longer in contact with the foot/head/left testicle of the player making the pass. We see this all the time when they're reviewing for a potential offside in the build up to a goal, where the VAR always seems to be establishing when the passing player is no longer in contact with the ball, rather than at the point of initial contact of their last touch of the ball.

I've never posted anywhere about this before, as to be honest I've always thought I was wrong or somehow not reading or understanding the laws correctly. That may well still be the case, just I figured it'd be an interesting point, particularly after that goal on Monday wasn't ruled out (which was a nice change).

[Barneylfc∗]

I get the argument that it's humans fucking it up, but those humans aren't going anywhere any time soon.

They've introduced technology that was supposed to help these humans correct their human errors. All it has served up is controversy and killing people's enjoyment, especially those in attendance at a game.

So until they have humans that can use it properly it should be set aside.

[Barneylfc∗]

Ok, so Joe was onside and Sadio was indeed offside.

Seems mad though doesn't it? Contrary to the way the game has always been understood. A 'caressed' pass is obviously different to a 'stabbed' one. In one the foot is in contact with the ball for a long time. In the other the foot's first contact with the ball is also its last one. I'm guessing therefore that VAR has ignored a century of practice for the crude reason that the technology can detect 'first contact' but not the moment the ball is released.

Reminds me of this

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/kF5Skmb6p1o" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/kF5Skmb6p1o</a>

[Black Bull Nova]

Do you actually realise it's humans fucking this up and not the technology?

Just a reminder of what happened pre VAR

Exactly, imagine what is going to happen when VAR goes and offsides and penalties are given incorrectly, everyone will be looking at the slo-mo and waiting for the ref to do the same, but they won't and nothing will be done.


VAR has been a disaster in many ways but it's not the cameras.


Recipe for enhanced cheating

[rob1966]

Here's a reminder of what happened post VAR 

And in both cases its a not fit for purpose official that was the issue - bit of a theme here

[Enders]

And in both cases its a not fit for purpose official that was the issue - bit of a theme here

Better refs = better decisions

The current shower are fucking useless, with or without assistance from 'technology' (which is literally just a poxy TV replay), and are at best biased as fuck.

Protocols are an organisational issue - if this season has taught us anything, it's abundantly clear that this is an absolute shitshow too. 'Good process lads'

[rob1966]

I get the argument that it's humans fucking it up, but those humans aren't going anywhere any time soon.

They've introduced technology that was supposed to help these humans correct their human errors. All it has served up is controversy and killing people's enjoyment, especially those in attendance at a game.

So until they have humans that can use it properly it should be set aside.

If you set it aside, then there is no impetus to get rid of the officials, they just have the fall back of the SYP twat saying "Oh its a quick game, sometimes we make mistakes, we're only human - 95% of the time we're correct though"

The use of the tech has shone a spotlight on how poor our officials are, yet everyone blames the tech, drives me mad.

[JRed]

And in both cases its a not fit for purpose official that was the issue - bit of a theme here

I honestly don’t get people saying it will be better without var . In some respects maybe, but the big problem is now we know what he officials were not just making honest mistakes because it’s difficult in real time. Things would be far worse than they were before VAR was introduced. The level of scrutiny will be the same but the PGMOL will not even have to give a second thought to giving the decisions they want as they will have the easy get out of having missed it.

[RyanBabel19]

Lads I missed the entire World Cup so didn’t get to see VAR implemented in a different setting/competition. Was there the same level of controversy with decisions and calls as we see in the league at the moment or was it used more intellegently?

[stewy17]

An absolute farce if they scrap VAR. There will be carnage as soon as the first offside is missed or the first handball etc.

I find it remarkable that Wolves (or anyone) would think that the answer is to throw it in the bin. Improve the tech, modernise the laws of the game to make it more compatible with video refereeing, get better people running the refereeing in the country, fire anyone who doesn't send their mate to the video screen to "protect" them & stop the referees protecting themselves all the fucking time, acknowledge that some other sports are better at this stuff than football is and try and take some learnings from there. There are so many options to get this going in a better way.

It can't go back in the box now, just invest and make it better for fucks sake.

[rob1966]

An absolute farce if they scrap VAR. There will be carnage as soon as the first offside is missed or the first handball etc.

I find it remarkable that Wolves (or anyone) would think that the answer is to throw it in the bin. Improve the tech, modernise the laws of the game to make it more compatible with video refereeing, get better people running the refereeing in the country, fire anyone who doesn't send their mate to the video screen to "protect" them & stop the referees protecting themselves all the fucking time, acknowledge that some other sports are better at this stuff than football is and try and take some learnings from there. There are so many options to get this going in a better way.

It can't go back in the box now, just invest and make it better for fucks sake.

Exactly this.

[Fromola]

An absolute farce if they scrap VAR. There will be carnage as soon as the first offside is missed or the first handball etc.

I find it remarkable that Wolves (or anyone) would think that the answer is to throw it in the bin. Improve the tech, modernise the laws of the game to make it more compatible with video refereeing, get better people running the refereeing in the country, fire anyone who doesn't send their mate to the video screen to "protect" them & stop the referees protecting themselves all the fucking time, acknowledge that some other sports are better at this stuff than football is and try and take some learnings from there. There are so many options to get this going in a better way.

It can't go back in the box now, just invest and make it better for fucks sake.

So the only argument for VAR is you can't put the shit back in the horse.

This is why change needs to be resisted in the game, as no matter how poorly things are implemented you're stuck with them.

Lucky EFL, they can just get on with the game without it

My argument with VAR is it shouldn’t have been rolled out until it was proven to work. Technology can work. VAR doesn't. And if we keep it it'll be the same refs making the league unwatchable.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

VAR works, it's the c*nts who are sabotaging it that don't.

[A-Bomb]

VAR works, it's the c*nts who are sabotaging it that don't.

Reminds me of a Fawlty Towers sketch....


Richards : No, because the room is cold, the bath is too small, the view is invisible, and the radio doesn't work. Basil Fawlty : No, the radio works. You don't ...

[Dr. Beaker]

Keep the technology, change the personnel.

[andyrol]

the only way VAR should be kept is if its taken completely away from the PGMOL. maybe a group of ex players, experts, ex refs etc with an IT guy as 'chair'/communicator . and made more proffesional, none of this " ok Tayls, its Ollie here, yeah yeah...good process" bollocks, more " referee, halt the game we have a potential penalty incident.. ok doku has kicked macallister in the chest, there isnt enough evidence to show who touched the ball first but its certainly dangerous play..we suggest you review on pitch side monitor"  " ok, i thought it was a coming together...yeah i see its a foul, im going to give a penalty can i have confirmation?" " yes, penalty".
AND we all need to hear the decision, over miked ref-tannoy or some such. if the PGMOL dont agree to this then its scrapped and they have to improve- full close season training where a new set of rules are produced with a promise that these will be adhered to , failures in this will result in league demotions for whichever ref cocks up. those that are away at the euros will need to do the training when they return so will not get games until at least september.

[rafathegaffa83]

An absolute farce if they scrap VAR. There will be carnage as soon as the first offside is missed or the first handball etc.

I find it remarkable that Wolves (or anyone) would think that the answer is to throw it in the bin. Improve the tech, modernise the laws of the game to make it more compatible with video refereeing, get better people running the refereeing in the country, fire anyone who doesn't send their mate to the video screen to "protect" them & stop the referees protecting themselves all the fucking time, acknowledge that some other sports are better at this stuff than football is and try and take some learnings from there. There are so many options to get this going in a better way.

It can't go back in the box now, just invest and make it better for fucks sake.

Well said. And first approach to improve it should be to split VAR duties from PGMOL