Topic: The unravelling. A team, manager and fans shafted by transfer incompetence

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

I'm firmly behind him and said in the Summer that for me this was a free pass season for him. He should be allowed to try things, make mistakes, learn from them without pressure coming from the fanbase.

Up to a point. Watch the foot of the table racing up towards us.

My question is therefore, how much of a "free pass" does he get?

Just to qualify my position, I'm undecided.

[Brentieke]

Hmm.

All bar Rodgers mate.

Brendan has proven he's a great manager. The committee have proven they're nothing but inept.

[Brentieke]

Up to a point. Watch the foot of the table racing up towards us.

My question is therefore, how much of a "free pass" does he get?

Just to qualify my position, I'm undecided.

Free pass for me is as long as we don't get relegated. He has my full support as long as that doesn't happen.

[djphal]

Rafa Benitez and Gerard Houllier both went through an almost identical time.

Rafa was under severe constraints with his transfers, if he had 120 million to spend in one window I am pretty sure he would have us in a lot better position than we are now

[L666KOP]

All bar Rodgers mate.

Brendan has proven he's a great manager. The committee have proven they're nothing but inept.

When ?

I'm not knocking him Brentie, but that's some statement mate.

[Brentieke]

Rafa was under severe constraints with his transfers, if he had 120 million to spend in one window I am pretty sure he would have us in a lot better position than we are now

Disagree.

Rafa had started to make horrendous decisions in the transfer market.

Anyways that's not the point. The point is, in the reply to the post I quoted, even great managers that have brought success to LFC like Rafa and Ged went through a period like this- and neither came out of it.

[djphal]

Free pass for me is as long as we don't get relegated. He has my full support as long as that doesn't happen.

we should be no where near the bottom half with the money spent

managers are judged on their signings and performances, the majority of his signings have been poor and the performances this season are some of the worse in years

he needs to fix it quick, Kenny won a trophy and got to the FA cup final but was poor in the league after spending a lot of money and they had no problem getting rid of him, i am genuinely worried for Brendan now, there is no such thing as a free pass

[djphal]

Disagree.

Rafa had started to make horrendous decisions in the transfer market.

most through no fault of his own

unless you can name some?

[Brentieke]

When ?

I'm not knocking him Brentie, but that's some statement mate.

Come on mate did you miss last season?

I wrote this about the manager last term. It still stands.

The thing is, it's not just about winning.

It's how we're winning.

I'm 33. I've been supporting Liverpool since I was 5. I fell for the Reds properly when Barnes was signed. The first team I truly saw was Kenny's 87-91 vintage.

So basically, you can say I got my footballing education from that side. The triangles, the short passing, Beardsley dropping off the striker, Barnes' magnificent wing play, the late runs into the box from midfield by Mcmahon and Houghton, the comeback wins, the never say die attitude.

That was the Liverpool I fell in love with. The style of play that got me hooked. Since then, every Liverpool side I've watched has always been compared to that team for me. Look at my first few posts on this forum 9 years ago or so and you'll see me moaning (as ever) of our transfer market failings. You'll see me begging for a Pablo Aimar (i.e. a Beardsley type). For flair. For more creativity.

For close to 15 years (since 97 basically. Just after my desire for a defensive midfielder was sated by Paul Ince...), I've been begging Liverpool bosses to buy that sort of player. The type that can unlock tight defenses. That can thread a through ball through an eye of a needle. That can terrify defenders with pace and guile, creativity and flair. And year after year, I had to see the likes of Overmars,  Pires, Ronaldo and Modric being snapped up by other teams while we signed the likes of  Leonhardsen, Barmby, Kuyt and Jovanovic: hard workers, first and foremost. Flair and trickery sacrificed for keeping the shape and defensive solidity.

Why? Because since Evans decided he needed more workers in the side after the debacle of Spring 1997, every manager we've had has valued workers over flair players.

Houllier brought success but he also brought some of the most mind numbingly boring football I've ever seen. He had the closest thing to Peter Beardsley in modern football (Number 37) and used him like he was John Fashanu.

Rafa brought success, amazing nights and for a few months some wonderful attacking play, but he also brought a sometimes spirit crushing refusal to take risks, to go for broke, to sacrifice the system for more creativity. He spent fortunes on every position except attacking midfield. He was all about compactness, the shape, control.

Hodgson was Hodgson and Kenny was hamstrung from the very start with a 35m pounds absolute fuck up of a signing who was so limited he required us to go spend more fortunes on limited players to bring the best out of his limited skill set. We all, for a couple of lovely months in Spring 2011 saw a version of a modern Liverpool which mirrored the 87-91 vintage. But then, it was gone with the need to limit our attacking play with our limited record signing.

In Brendan Rodgers, we have a man who puts flair before anything else. We have a man who's first thought is attack. Whose every thought is about scoring goals. It's about winning football matches. Who will not hesitate to go for broke if we're drawing, who wants us to play exactly like the 87-91 vintage did. And, Jesus Christ, he's very close to making it happen.

Philippe Coutinho is exactly the type of player that I've been begging us to sign since Mcmanaman left in 1999. He's the Peter Beardsley we've been crying out for years. He's a player who is full of flair, creativity, vision and skill. And Rodgers adores him, absolutely swears by him. Raheem Sterling is the closest thing (but still miles away) from a John Barnes for 2 decades. Full of flair, pace, trickery and fight. And he's 19. Rodgers adores, has played him since he was 17, has never wavered in his support for him.

We have the best player I've ever seen in a Liverpool shirt in my life in Luis Suarez. A man for which the word flair is not enough. And we have Daniel Sturridge, a man who is scoring goals faster than ANY Liverpool striker in modern Liverpool history.

This isn't about Rodgers getting lucky. This isn't about Lambert being better. This shit did not just happen. It was Rodgers who had the balls to play Sterling (even at 17 years of age). It was Rodgers who went out and bought Coutinho when most of our previous managers would have had not touched him with a barge pole. It is Rodgers who is getting Sturridge to look like the English Thierry Henry. And it is Rodgers that is getting Luis Suarez to break goalscoring record after goal scoring record.

For those who know me, you'll know how adamant I was from the start that the Carroll - Suarez partnership was doomed to fail. I was going nuts at how we were wasting Suarez's talent, using him like Jermaine Defoe, when he was so much better than that.  I argued endlessly on here that we needed to surround him with movement, with pace and with intelligent footballers. Well Rodgers came in, sent Carroll packing , backed himself, backed Luis and now look. We have 2 strikers that have more than 1 goals a start this season in the league. THIS HAS NEVER BEEN DONE BEFORE. BY ANYONE.

It's because of all of this that I look at Rodgers and give him my full support. People can't just brush off what's been happening this season (and indeed since last Jan) as luck or anything else. It's genius. We've beaten teams by 4 goals or more 5 times this season. Do you know how many times Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs and United have done that combined? ZERO. Not once. Everton? 1 time. City? 4 times- and they have had 5 years or so to Billion pounds up their squad.

You know what…  Fuck our rivals. Compare us to our previous manager. We’ve beaten teams by 4 goals or more in the league 10 times in Rodgers' 64 league games: the same number of times as in Houllier's 6 seasons, 2 less than in Evans' 5 seasons, and 5 less than in Rafa's 6 seasons. This guy has barely managed us for a season and a half!

I've never seen (not even the 87-91 team) Liverpool absolutely destroy the teams around us. We went from breaking records in a bad way to breaking records in a good way, almost in the blink of an eye. The likes of Wolves, Fulham, Spurs, West Brom etc etc... all came to Anfield from 2010 to 2012 and won for the first time in decades. Now? We've gotten our biggest Derby win since 1982. We've had our biggest win at Spurs in our history. We matched our record for goals scored against Arsenal in our history.

This kind of shit you don't just brush off. We're DESTROYING these teams. 5-0. 4-0. 5-1. And we're missing penalties, hitting posts, missing chances while we're doing it.  Who from our rivals are doing this? Which Liverpool teams from the last 20 odd years have done this?
You don't just call this shit luck, or talk about Paul Lambert. You fucking respect it.

I could go on for ages about what Rodgers' has done right: playing the kids (name me one manager we've had in recent history who would have put Suso on at half time for his league debut vs United? Or sent in Texeira for his debut with 8 minutes to go in a game we desperately needed to win?),  attacking substitutions ( putting on a second striker vs Stoke when 3-2 up- in complete contrast to what most of our recent bosses would have done), playing the media brightly and in a non confrontational manner…

And you know what… It’s maybe the last point that’s the issue for some as well as me. Because, while I absolutely adore Brendan Rodgers’ Liverpool and almost everything he’s done so far, I still struggle to warm to Brendan Rodgers the man. I still call him Rodgers for example, like I called Gerard- Houllier- after a certain time. Why? Maybe it’s because it’s his love in with the media. Maybe it’s because of little things like calling Howard Webb “Howard” after THAT shambles on Sunday. Maybe it’s because I’m still not certain this bloke is one of us, like Kenny was, like Rafa was. Maybe it’s because, as Tony  Evans rightly says, we haven’t actually achieved anything yet.

But Brendan Rodgers the manager? Brendan Rodgers’ Liverpool? They make me look at my telly (sorry locals; Out of Towner here) with amazement. They make me see things I haven’t seen for decades, dream things I haven’t dare to dream, feel things I haven’t felt for years.

They make this 33 year old man stay up till 4am in the morning with the adrenaline still racing after watching a master class of an attacking performance; watching replay after replay, full match after full match.

They make me feel like a 7 year old again. And that’s all that counts.

We could go on a bad run sure. But that won’t erase what we’ve done since January 2013. I think people have forgotten how bleak it was before that.  Finishing 7th, 6th and 8th. Losing 3-1 in a fortnight or so to Villa and Stoke. Looking like we had absolutely fuck all to play for. Couldn’t score a penalty, let alone a goal, if our lives depended on it.  Losing game after game against awful sides at Anfield.

From that to 4 points off the top with 12 games to go  and 66 goals scored in 26 games played. In barely 13 months. Rate Lambert all you want but for Christ’s sake, have some respect. Even rival fans (go to Red Café if you don’t believe me) sing Rodgers’ praises.

Leave your bitterness to one side and just enjoy this incredibly exciting team we have which is making us dream like we haven’t dreamed for eons.

[viteslesrouges]

Alright genius,.... are you a Liverpool supporter? or just another fucking customer, ?

  excellent 

[mkferdy]

Rafa Benitez and Gerard Houllier both went through an almost identical time.

A title charge, failure, an absolutely shambolic transfer window and then a season where the football was unwatchable and results horrific.

This is a car crash of a season. Absolutely everything that could possibly go wrong, is.

Now this the key.

Brendan Rodgers is not Rafa Benitez nor Gerard Houllier. He is an absolte baby in managerial terms.

He's had to contend with the most heartbreaking end to a season since 1989, a World Cup, his captain having the weight of the world on his shoulders, the loss of one of the 2 greatest players in the club's history, the loss to injury of his main striker, a shambolic transfer window, the integration of 8 new players into the squad.

He's had to contend with Champions League football for the first time in his career. He's had to learn how to rotate for the first time in his career.

He's had to contend with all of that at once. There are few managers in world football history who could do that. None in our recent past, that's for sure.

People now have a choice. You either think Brendan is the right man for the job or don't. If you do- and after what we saw last season I cannot understand how someone can't- then you take all those factors into consideration and you support him and excuse his mistakes. If you don't, and thus last season for you had nothing to do with him, then you use all of that as a stick to beat him with.

I'm firmly behind him and said in the Summer that for me this was a free pass season for him. He should be allowed to try things, make mistakes, learn from them without pressure coming from the fanbase.

But the club need to help him. And until they change the amateurs in the transfer committee, Brendan will be hamstrung and the club will not move forwards.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying except I personally feel having spent the money we have we should be doing a lot better, however do you feel the owners see it that way? For me Brendan is stuck between a rock and a hard place. When the owners ask him what he needs to improve if he turns around saying I need x amount of players costing millions I personally think they will bulk at that idea and will feel its more cost effective to sack him and bring in a manager that can get more out of the existing players.

If he turns round and tells them he doesn't need any more money and we finish say 8th for example then I can see Brendan's fate being exactly the same as Kenny's was in my opinion.

I personally feel the best he can do at the moment is keep his head down and find a new way of playing where he can get the best out of the players we have available. For me there were signs of that last night. If we can pick up form and have a good second half of the season he will be under less pressure as he can point to his first season as evidence that a good second half of the season with a new team can lead to an incredible season the following year. 

[Brentieke]

most through no fault of his own

unless you can name some?

Let's take it to PM mate, don't want to derail this thread with more Rafa transfer talk!

[L666KOP]

Come on mate did you miss last season?

I wrote this about the manager last term. It still stands.

The thing is, it's not just about winning.

It's how we're winning.

But he got us playing that way for 6 months ?

I agree with the sentiment, but 'great' is too strong a shout.

At this point he's been 'decent' for me. And that's not me knocking him at all, far from it, he's still a kid as far as managers go.

If he turns us around and adapts his way into the top 4 he climbs another couple of rungs. If we make the steps smaller it's not as big a disappointment when we drop a couple.

[Historical Fool]

All bar Rodgers mate.

Brendan has proven he's a great manager. The committee have proven they're nothing but inept.

Except that Brendan has the final say on transfers, no?

[Draex]

Free pass for me is as long as we don't get relegated. He has my full support as long as that doesn't happen.

You see this is what I cannot fathmon, Rodgers has final say in ALL transfers - Lovren, Lallana, Allen are clearly his #1 targets from various windows, yet struggling or not even playing for the most part. If the committee is failing Rodgers plays a huge part of that.

We lack experience at all levels of the club - a real footballing man or two to reign Rodgers in, to bounce ideas off ..

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

most through no fault of his own
unless you can name some?

One of them was playing left back last night...still, you can;t blame Rafa for nobody having binned off Johnson ages ago...

[steveeastend]

Come on mate did you miss last season?

I wrote this about the manager last term. It still stands.

The thing is, it's not just about winning.

It's how we're winning.

I'm 33. I've been supporting Liverpool since I was 5. I fell for the Reds properly when Barnes was signed. The first team I truly saw was Kenny's 87-91 vintage.

So basically, you can say I got my footballing education from that side. The triangles, the short passing, Beardsley dropping off the striker, Barnes' magnificent wing play, the late runs into the box from midfield by Mcmahon and Houghton, the comeback wins, the never say die attitude.

That was the Liverpool I fell in love with. The style of play that got me hooked. Since then, every Liverpool side I've watched has always been compared to that team for me. Look at my first few posts on this forum 9 years ago or so and you'll see me moaning (as ever) of our transfer market failings. You'll see me begging for a Pablo Aimar (i.e. a Beardsley type). For flair. For more creativity.

For close to 15 years (since 97 basically. Just after my desire for a defensive midfielder was sated by Paul Ince...), I've been begging Liverpool bosses to buy that sort of player. The type that can unlock tight defenses. That can thread a through ball through an eye of a needle. That can terrify defenders with pace and guile, creativity and flair. And year after year, I had to see the likes of Overmars,  Pires, Ronaldo and Modric being snapped up by other teams while we signed the likes of  Leonhardsen, Barmby, Kuyt and Jovanovic: hard workers, first and foremost. Flair and trickery sacrificed for keeping the shape and defensive solidity.

Why? Because since Evans decided he needed more workers in the side after the debacle of Spring 1997, every manager we've had has valued workers over flair players.

Houllier brought success but he also brought some of the most mind numbingly boring football I've ever seen. He had the closest thing to Peter Beardsley in modern football (Number 37) and used him like he was John Fashanu.

Rafa brought success, amazing nights and for a few months some wonderful attacking play, but he also brought a sometimes spirit crushing refusal to take risks, to go for broke, to sacrifice the system for more creativity. He spent fortunes on every position except attacking midfield. He was all about compactness, the shape, control.

Hodgson was Hodgson and Kenny was hamstrung from the very start with a 35m pounds absolute fuck up of a signing who was so limited he required us to go spend more fortunes on limited players to bring the best out of his limited skill set. We all, for a couple of lovely months in Spring 2011 saw a version of a modern Liverpool which mirrored the 87-91 vintage. But then, it was gone with the need to limit our attacking play with our limited record signing.

In Brendan Rodgers, we have a man who puts flair before anything else. We have a man who's first thought is attack. Whose every thought is about scoring goals. It's about winning football matches. Who will not hesitate to go for broke if we're drawing, who wants us to play exactly like the 87-91 vintage did. And, Jesus Christ, he's very close to making it happen.

Philippe Coutinho is exactly the type of player that I've been begging us to sign since Mcmanaman left in 1999. He's the Peter Beardsley we've been crying out for years. He's a player who is full of flair, creativity, vision and skill. And Rodgers adores him, absolutely swears by him. Raheem Sterling is the closest thing (but still miles away) from a John Barnes for 2 decades. Full of flair, pace, trickery and fight. And he's 19. Rodgers adores, has played him since he was 17, has never wavered in his support for him.

We have the best player I've ever seen in a Liverpool shirt in my life in Luis Suarez. A man for which the word flair is not enough. And we have Daniel Sturridge, a man who is scoring goals faster than ANY Liverpool striker in modern Liverpool history.

This isn't about Rodgers getting lucky. This isn't about Lambert being better. This shit did not just happen. It was Rodgers who had the balls to play Sterling (even at 17 years of age). It was Rodgers who went out and bought Coutinho when most of our previous managers would have had not touched him with a barge pole. It is Rodgers who is getting Sturridge to look like the English Thierry Henry. And it is Rodgers that is getting Luis Suarez to break goalscoring record after goal scoring record.

For those who know me, you'll know how adamant I was from the start that the Carroll - Suarez partnership was doomed to fail. I was going nuts at how we were wasting Suarez's talent, using him like Jermaine Defoe, when he was so much better than that.  I argued endlessly on here that we needed to surround him with movement, with pace and with intelligent footballers. Well Rodgers came in, sent Carroll packing , backed himself, backed Luis and now look. We have 2 strikers that have more than 1 goals a start this season in the league. THIS HAS NEVER BEEN DONE BEFORE. BY ANYONE.

It's because of all of this that I look at Rodgers and give him my full support. People can't just brush off what's been happening this season (and indeed since last Jan) as luck or anything else. It's genius. We've beaten teams by 4 goals or more 5 times this season. Do you know how many times Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs and United have done that combined? ZERO. Not once. Everton? 1 time. City? 4 times- and they have had 5 years or so to Billion pounds up their squad.

You know what…  Fuck our rivals. Compare us to our previous manager. We’ve beaten teams by 4 goals or more in the league 10 times in Rodgers' 64 league games: the same number of times as in Houllier's 6 seasons, 2 less than in Evans' 5 seasons, and 5 less than in Rafa's 6 seasons. This guy has barely managed us for a season and a half!

I've never seen (not even the 87-91 team) Liverpool absolutely destroy the teams around us. We went from breaking records in a bad way to breaking records in a good way, almost in the blink of an eye. The likes of Wolves, Fulham, Spurs, West Brom etc etc... all came to Anfield from 2010 to 2012 and won for the first time in decades. Now? We've gotten our biggest Derby win since 1982. We've had our biggest win at Spurs in our history. We matched our record for goals scored against Arsenal in our history.

This kind of shit you don't just brush off. We're DESTROYING these teams. 5-0. 4-0. 5-1. And we're missing penalties, hitting posts, missing chances while we're doing it.  Who from our rivals are doing this? Which Liverpool teams from the last 20 odd years have done this?
You don't just call this shit luck, or talk about Paul Lambert. You fucking respect it.

I could go on for ages about what Rodgers' has done right: playing the kids (name me one manager we've had in recent history who would have put Suso on at half time for his league debut vs United? Or sent in Texeira for his debut with 8 minutes to go in a game we desperately needed to win?),  attacking substitutions ( putting on a second striker vs Stoke when 3-2 up- in complete contrast to what most of our recent bosses would have done), playing the media brightly and in a non confrontational manner…

And you know what… It’s maybe the last point that’s the issue for some as well as me. Because, while I absolutely adore Brendan Rodgers’ Liverpool and almost everything he’s done so far, I still struggle to warm to Brendan Rodgers the man. I still call him Rodgers for example, like I called Gerard- Houllier- after a certain time. Why? Maybe it’s because it’s his love in with the media. Maybe it’s because of little things like calling Howard Webb “Howard” after THAT shambles on Sunday. Maybe it’s because I’m still not certain this bloke is one of us, like Kenny was, like Rafa was. Maybe it’s because, as Tony  Evans rightly says, we haven’t actually achieved anything yet.

But Brendan Rodgers the manager? Brendan Rodgers’ Liverpool? They make me look at my telly (sorry locals; Out of Towner here) with amazement. They make me see things I haven’t seen for decades, dream things I haven’t dare to dream, feel things I haven’t felt for years.

They make this 33 year old man stay up till 4am in the morning with the adrenaline still racing after watching a master class of an attacking performance; watching replay after replay, full match after full match.

They make me feel like a 7 year old again. And that’s all that counts.

We could go on a bad run sure. But that won’t erase what we’ve done since January 2013. I think people have forgotten how bleak it was before that.  Finishing 7th, 6th and 8th. Losing 3-1 in a fortnight or so to Villa and Stoke. Looking like we had absolutely fuck all to play for. Couldn’t score a penalty, let alone a goal, if our lives depended on it.  Losing game after game against awful sides at Anfield.

From that to 4 points off the top with 12 games to go  and 66 goals scored in 26 games played. In barely 13 months. Rate Lambert all you want but for Christ’s sake, have some respect. Even rival fans (go to Red Café if you don’t believe me) sing Rodgers’ praises.

Leave your bitterness to one side and just enjoy this incredibly exciting team we have which is making us dream like we haven’t dreamed for eons.

Top post mate!

I cannot wait until Rodgers gets his will and have us play exactly the way he wants us. It will be mouth watering.

Let's hope he'll be around, at the moment it depends on a couple of things but definitely not on his overall qualities as a coach.

There is more to a great manager though these days...

[djphal]

One of them was playing left back last night...still, you can;t blame Rafa for nobody having binned off Johnson ages ago...

Johnson was a good player when we signed him, he has declined over the last few seasons though

[Brentieke]

You see this is what I cannot fathmon, Rodgers has final say in ALL transfers - Lovren, Lallana, Allen are clearly his #1 targets from various windows, yet struggling or not even playing for the most part. If the committee is failing Rodgers plays a huge part of that.

We lack experience at all levels of the club - a real footballing man or two to reign Rodgers in, to bounce ideas off ..

There is no way in hell for me that this season would be as bad if we actually signed a couple of strikers with mobility this Summer.

Everything we're doing is hamstrung by the fact we have 2 immobile strikers up top for a side that is based on mobility and vibrancy in the final third.

And for me, there is no way on earth Rodgers wanted to go into this season with what target men I Lambert and Balotelli. It's complete anathema to the way we know he loves his side to play. It would be like Gérard Houllier making  a liability like David Luiz as the cornerstone of his defence and playing no defensive midfielder.

[djphal]

There is no way in hell for me that this season would be as bad if we actually signed a couple of strikers with mobility this Summer.

Everything we're doing is hamstrung by the fact we have 2 immobile strikers up top for a side that is based on mobility and vibrancy in the final third.

how about the inability to defend? the fact that it cost us the league title last season and we are actually worse this season

[Brentieke]

how about the inability to defend? the fact that it cost us the league title last season and we are actually worse this season

It takes time mate. We were a side last year that just outscored sides. Our entire Team DNA was based on that.

Far from costing us the title, it's what actually made us go into the last game of the season with a chance of winning the league for the first time since 1990.

You don't just transition from that to great defensive team in the blink of an eye. Remember how it took Houllier signing 2 center backs, a keeper and a defensive midfielder and changing our entire approach from the Evans era? It happened a year after he arrived.

I doubt we'll ever see a rock solid Liverpool side under Rodgers. We'll always be a bit too open, especially compared to the last few managers we've had. But I agree we need to see improvement. If it doesn't happen this year, so be it. If it doesn't happen next year, and the attack doesn't reach something close to last season's levels, that may just be all she wrote for the boss.

[Coolie High]

Rafa Benitez and Gerard Houllier both went through an almost identical time.

A title charge, failure, an absolutely shambolic transfer window and then a season where the football was unwatchable and results horrific.

This is a car crash of a season. Absolutely everything that could possibly go wrong, is.

Now this the key.

Brendan Rodgers is not Rafa Benitez nor Gerard Houllier. He is an absolte baby in managerial terms.

He's had to contend with the most heartbreaking end to a season since 1989, a World Cup, his captain having the weight of the world on his shoulders, the loss of one of the 2 greatest players in the club's history, the loss to injury of his main striker, a shambolic transfer window, the integration of 8 new players into the squad.

He's had to contend with Champions League football for the first time in his career. He's had to learn how to rotate for the first time in his career.

He's had to contend with all of that at once. There are few managers in world football history who could do that. None in our recent past, that's for sure.

People now have a choice. You either think Brendan is the right man for the job or don't. If you do- and after what we saw last season I cannot understand how someone can't- then you take all those factors into consideration and you support him and excuse his mistakes. If you don't, and thus last season for you had nothing to do with him, then you use all of that as a stick to beat him with.

I'm firmly behind him and said in the Summer that for me this was a free pass season for him. He should be allowed to try things, make mistakes, learn from them without pressure coming from the fanbase.

But the club need to help him. And until they change the amateurs in the transfer committee, Brendan will be hamstrung and the club will not move forwards.

Great post, and it only the beginning, some of the young players we have are on the verge of taking Europe by storm, with or without Rodgers at the helm, we've managed to make poor signings, but a core of Origi, Sterling, Coutinho, Ilori, Flannagan, Manquillo, Moreno, Can, Suso, is the most promising batch of young players i've seen playing at this club in a single time since i've been alive, we have a lot to look forward to.

[Coolie High]

how about the inability to defend? the fact that it cost us the league title last season and we are actually worse this season

We would be doing the same things we did last season, regardless, United and City have shown you can win the league by simply outscoring opponents.

[Coolie High]

we should be no where near the bottom half with the money spent

managers are judged on their signings and performances, the majority of his signings have been poor and the performances this season are some of the worse in years

he needs to fix it quick, Kenny won a trophy and got to the FA cup final but was poor in the league after spending a lot of money and they had no problem getting rid of him, i am genuinely worried for Brendan now, there is no such thing as a free pass

People keep bringing Kenny, but with all respect to the legend, he never during his helm had a team like Rodgers last season, he had 6 months of good football, Rodgers had 18 months of us playing on form as a top 2 team in the league.

[BCCC]

Managers stand and fall by their transfer decisions and how they handle the players. Houllier and Benitez mentioned above both made critical transfer mistakes at the wrong time. Houllier got seduced by the world cup performances of Diouf and signed him ahead of a successful loan signing Anelka. Benitez lost Alonso after the public chase for Barry and then signing the injured Aquilani. In the defence of Benitez it was during the tenure and upheaval of Gillette and Hicks. Even Kenny following on lost Torres and signed Carroll.

Rodgers will have to get his signings performing soon, particularly Lovren who is supposed to be the replacement for the classy but injury prone Agger. I'll be surprised if Rodgers gets any funding for January unless his signings show signs of significant improvement.

[RedSince86]

Great post, and it only the beginning, some of the young players we have are on the verge of taking Europe by storm, with or without Rodgers at the helm, we've managed to make poor signings, but a core of Origi, Sterling, Coutinho, Ilori, Flannagan, Manquillo, Moreno, Can, Suso, is the most promising batch of young players i've seen playing at this club in a single time since i've been alive, we have a lot to look forward to.

Add Wilson Ibe Rossiter and Ojo to that list.

[eddymunster]

It takes time mate. We were a side last year that just outscored sides. Our entire Team DNA was based on that.

Far from costing us the title, it's what actually made us go into the last game of the season with a chance of winning the league for the first time since 1990.

You don't just transition from that to great defensive team in the blink of an eye. Remember how it took Houllier signing 2 center backs, a keeper and a defensive midfielder and changing our entire approach from the Evans era? It happened a year after he arrived.

I doubt we'll ever see a rock solid Liverpool side under Rodgers. We'll always be a bit too open, especially compared to the last few managers we've had. But I agree we need to see improvement. If it doesn't happen this year, so be it. If it doesn't happen next year, and the attack doesn't reach something close to last season's levels, that may just be all she wrote for the boss.

I know we need to be positive but.... he has signed two centre halves. He has signed a keeper. He has refused to use our defensive midfielder until last night.

I don't expect us to go from last season to defensively solid over night, but heading in the right direction would be nice, and we actually saw some signs of it last night.

I'm not as negative as some on here, I actually was almost pleased with last night, we definitely improved. We were better defensively, more calm and composed in possession, and seemed to have a game plan, that although disturbed by the early gaff we seemed to adhere to. There were also worrying signs though, the decision to use only one sub when Gerrard was done, the repeated errors from Mignolet and conceding from yet another set piece.

What we can't do is revert to plan A at the weekend, it hasn't worked this season, and to be honest Rogers has been too slow to change it.

What we need (and Rogers needs), is what we got to an extent last night. An immediate improvement, small steps in the right direction, because if there isn't improvement I doubt he will get this year and next year to solve it.

[Brentieke]

I know we need to be positive but.... he has signed two centre halves. He has signed a keeper. He has refused to use our defensive midfielder until last night.

I don't expect us to go from last season to defensively solid over night, but heading in the right direction would be nice, and we actually saw some signs of it last night.

I'm not as negative as some on here, I actually was almost pleased with last night, we definitely improved. We were better defensively, more calm and composed in possession, and seemed to have a game plan, that although disturbed by the early gaff we seemed to adhere to. There were also worrying signs though, the decision to use only one sub when Gerrard was done, the repeated errors from Mignolet and conceding from yet another set piece.

What we can't do is revert to plan A at the weekend, it hasn't worked this season, and to be honest Rogers has been too slow to change it.

What we need (and Rogers needs), is what we got to an extent last night. An immediate improvement, small steps in the right direction, because if there isn't improvement I doubt he will get this year and next year to solve it.

All good points mate and I agree with most of it.

But this is the crux of the matter for me and the most relevant to the thread part:

Simon Mignolet. As you said, Rodgers bought him. Now, knowing what you know about Rodgers, and how much he likes his keeper to play from the back, how often he's said he wants the team to play with 11 men not 10:

Do you think he wanted a keeper who was not comfortable with the ball at his feet?

That's the fundamental question for me and puts into question absolutely everything about the transfer committee and our transfer strategy. Knowing how Rodgers wants his side to play, why buy a keeper who doesn't fit into that style? Knowing how Rodgers likes to play, why buy 2 immobile center forwards for a side that's based on mobility and vibrancy in the final third?

It just doesn't make sense. And that's why I give Rodgers the benefit of the doubt, because the transfer moves we're making are, on the whole, completely without strategy or logic. So he's either compromising his principles (which I highly doubt- this is a man who got rid of our record signing a month after becoming manager because he didn't fit our style of play) or the transfer committee and the scouting is an absolute shambles.

Studying our transfer moves since 2008, it's a lot more likely that it's the latter.

And until that improves, the club will remain stagnant.

[L666KOP]

I know we need to be positive but.... he has signed two centre halves. He has signed a keeper. He has refused to use our defensive midfielder until last night.

We don't play with a DM though mate. We play with a controller.

Lucas is being played in the controller role. But he's just more defensively aware.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

We don't play with a DM though mate. We play with a controller.

Lucas is being played in the controller role. But he's just more defensively aware.

What is a controller?

We don't seem to be controlling much at the moment.

[L666KOP]

What is a controller?

We don't seem to be controlling much at the moment.

A DM covers the full backs.

A controller is what Gerrard did last season.

Sits between the CB's, and basically controls the tempo, and the passing. The Full backs are covered by the CB's, and when this happens the controller drops into the vacated space. The controller shouldn't vacate the lateral space between the CB, a true DM covers the rest.
In Rafa's side we had Alonso/Mascherano, Alonso did the controlling, it was Mashcerano that did the DM role.


Lucas is the more defensively aware for the role, but lacks Gerrards passing range.

It's horses for courses really, against a side that we expect to dominate you'd have Stevie because he offers more offensively, against the better teams you'd have Lucas because he's more disciplined.

Ironically they could share the minutes in every single game. Play Stevie for an hour and bring Lucas on to consolidate, or play Lucas for an hour then bring Stevie on to go for it.

Both do exactly the same job, but differently.

[Chris~]

There is no way in hell for me that this season would be as bad if we actually signed a couple of strikers with mobility this Summer.

Everything we're doing is hamstrung by the fact we have 2 immobile strikers up top for a side that is based on mobility and vibrancy in the final third.

And for me, there is no way on earth Rodgers wanted to go into this season with what target men I Lambert and Balotelli. It's complete anathema to the way we know he loves his side to play. It would be like Gérard Houllier making  a liability like David Luiz as the cornerstone of his defence and playing no defensive midfielder.

Not sure how true this is though, he brought in Danny Graham for his Swansea side. Rodgers has shown that he doesn't really have one ideal way of playing. How we played last season was a totally different from how he had Swansea playing and how he had initially tried to get us to play.

[Gnurglan]

Rafa Benitez and Gerard Houllier both went through an almost identical time.

A title charge, failure, an absolutely shambolic transfer window and then a season where the football was unwatchable and results horrific.

This is a car crash of a season. Absolutely everything that could possibly go wrong, is.

Now this the key.

Brendan Rodgers is not Rafa Benitez nor Gerard Houllier. He is an absolte baby in managerial terms.

He's had to contend with the most heartbreaking end to a season since 1989, a World Cup, his captain having the weight of the world on his shoulders, the loss of one of the 2 greatest players in the club's history, the loss to injury of his main striker, a shambolic transfer window, the integration of 8 new players into the squad.

He's had to contend with Champions League football for the first time in his career. He's had to learn how to rotate for the first time in his career.

He's had to contend with all of that at once. There are few managers in world football history who could do that. None in our recent past, that's for sure.

People now have a choice. You either think Brendan is the right man for the job or don't. If you do- and after what we saw last season I cannot understand how someone can't- then you take all those factors into consideration and you support him and excuse his mistakes. If you don't, and thus last season for you had nothing to do with him, then you use all of that as a stick to beat him with.

I'm firmly behind him and said in the Summer that for me this was a free pass season for him. He should be allowed to try things, make mistakes, learn from them without pressure coming from the fanbase.

But the club need to help him. And until they change the amateurs in the transfer committee, Brendan will be hamstrung and the club will not move forwards.

Yes. The easy way out now is to see the manager as the single problem we have and then replace him. But that's not how I see it. We have many factors, I think you've covered them above.

The club need to help him (and that includes the players). That doesn't mean "hand him a sack of money". There is more than one way to help him.

[Gnurglan]

There is no way in hell for me that this season would be as bad if we actually signed a couple of strikers with mobility this Summer.

Everything we're doing is hamstrung by the fact we have 2 immobile strikers up top for a side that is based on mobility and vibrancy in the final third.

And for me, there is no way on earth Rodgers wanted to go into this season with what target men I Lambert and Balotelli. It's complete anathema to the way we know he loves his side to play. It would be like Gérard Houllier making  a liability like David Luiz as the cornerstone of his defence and playing no defensive midfielder.

Don't think Rodgers wanted to go from the mobility to what we have seen. I do however think that the plan was to change our style. With pace coming from the attacking midfielders and not just the striker(s). And then use different alternatives up front. That's what our transfers indicate. The one signing that stand out is Balotelli. The rest I think fit the profile one would expect.

[kennedy81]

Rafa Benitez and Gerard Houllier both went through an almost identical time.

A title charge, failure, an absolutely shambolic transfer window and then a season where the football was unwatchable and results horrific.

This is a car crash of a season. Absolutely everything that could possibly go wrong, is.

Now this the key.

Brendan Rodgers is not Rafa Benitez nor Gerard Houllier. He is an absolte baby in managerial terms.

He's had to contend with the most heartbreaking end to a season since 1989, a World Cup, his captain having the weight of the world on his shoulders, the loss of one of the 2 greatest players in the club's history, the loss to injury of his main striker, a shambolic transfer window, the integration of 8 new players into the squad.

He's had to contend with Champions League football for the first time in his career. He's had to learn how to rotate for the first time in his career.

He's had to contend with all of that at once. There are few managers in world football history who could do that. None in our recent past, that's for sure.

People now have a choice. You either think Brendan is the right man for the job or don't. If you do- and after what we saw last season I cannot understand how someone can't- then you take all those factors into consideration and you support him and excuse his mistakes. If you don't, and thus last season for you had nothing to do with him, then you use all of that as a stick to beat him with.

I'm firmly behind him and said in the Summer that for me this was a free pass season for him. He should be allowed to try things, make mistakes, learn from them without pressure coming from the fanbase.

But the club need to help him. And until they change the amateurs in the transfer committee, Brendan will be hamstrung and the club will not move forwards.

Great post mate, totally agree.

[Brentieke]

Not sure how true this is though, he brought in Danny Graham for his Swansea side. Rodgers has shown that he doesn't really have one ideal way of playing. How we played last season was a totally different from how he had Swansea playing and how he had initially tried to get us to play.

How likely do you think it is that Rodgers looked at the way we played last year, saw us score 101 league goals,  and decided to change the system completely to buy 2 target men for a side that put the lowest amount of crosses in the league last season?

I don't think for a second that's what he wanted.

And there lies the problem. Buying players that don't fit a system. We've been doing it since 1995.

[danscib]

Rafa Benitez and Gerard Houllier both went through an almost identical time.

A title charge, failure, an absolutely shambolic transfer window and then a season where the football was unwatchable and results horrific.

This is a car crash of a season. Absolutely everything that could possibly go wrong, is.

Now this the key.

Brendan Rodgers is not Rafa Benitez nor Gerard Houllier. He is an absolte baby in managerial terms.

He's had to contend with the most heartbreaking end to a season since 1989, a World Cup, his captain having the weight of the world on his shoulders, the loss of one of the 2 greatest players in the club's history, the loss to injury of his main striker, a shambolic transfer window, the integration of 8 new players into the squad.

He's had to contend with Champions League football for the first time in his career. He's had to learn how to rotate for the first time in his career.

He's had to contend with all of that at once. There are few managers in world football history who could do that. None in our recent past, that's for sure.

People now have a choice. You either think Brendan is the right man for the job or don't. If you do- and after what we saw last season I cannot understand how someone can't- then you take all those factors into consideration and you support him and excuse his mistakes. If you don't, and thus last season for you had nothing to do with him, then you use all of that as a stick to beat him with.

I'm firmly behind him and said in the Summer that for me this was a free pass season for him. He should be allowed to try things, make mistakes, learn from them without pressure coming from the fanbase.

But the club need to help him. And until they change the amateurs in the transfer committee, Brendan will be hamstrung and the club will not move forwards.

True story, great post

[HighSix]

All bar Rodgers mate.

Brendan has proven he's a great manager. The committee have proven they're nothing but inept.

Not sure how we can separate Rodgers from the committee as he is part of it & from his own mouth 'has the final say'. Transfers is a huge part of club management & essential when you are fighting clubs with more resources. I firmly hope Rodgers stays as don't see better options available or FSG willing to attract but he is hardly a great yet but has shown the potential he could be. 

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

How likely do you think it is that Rodgers looked at the way we played last year, saw us score 101 league goals,  and decided to change the system completely to buy 2 target men for a side that put the lowest amount of crosses in the league last season?

I don't think for a second that's what he wanted.

And there lies the problem. Buying players that don't fit a system. We've been doing it since 1995.

The implication here is that Rodgers has no input or say on transfers.

[Chris~]

How likely do you think it is that Rodgers looked at the way we played last year, saw us score 101 league goals,  and decided to change the system completely to buy 2 target men for a side that put the lowest amount of crosses in the league last season?

I don't think for a second that's what he wanted.

And there lies the problem. Buying players that don't fit a system. We've been doing it since 1995.

Maybe he knew it wasn't sustainable, wanted to adapt? I'm sure he wanted at least one different option and we did buy other players who could fit the role of being quick and direct (Can, Markovic, Lallana, Origi eventually). I agree getting in Balotelli after Lambert was a mistake, although I think how we've tried using him has been awful, but we've got the players for Rodgers to try an replicate last seasons style of play if he wanted to. We've certainly got enough attacking talent that we should be breaking down the likes of Villa and Hull at home.

I have a bigger issue with how our new signings have been used than who we bought.