Topic: The unravelling. A team, manager and fans shafted by transfer incompetence

[Titi Camara]

It's pretty obvious what your facts and figures are trying to prove.

So you're posting all of this for what then? haha

I just find it an interesting comparison, it's up to you if you want to draw conclusions.

The thread is about our current transfer business, I've listed all the business our current manager has overseen and placed that against comparable business (from a monetary point of view) from probably the best side on the planet right now.

Now these particular players were not available to us but it shows what sort of calibre of player is available for this amount of money.

[theMilkman]

Player   Signing Fee
Adam Lallana   £25,000,000
Lazar Markovic   £20,000,000
Dejan Lovren   £20,000,000
Mamadou Sakho   £18,000,000
Mario Balotelli   £16,000,000
Joe Allen   £15,000,000
Alberto Moreno Perez   £12,000,000
Daniel Sturridge   £12,000,000
Fabio Borini   £10,500,000
Emre Can   £10,000,000
Divock Origi   £10,000,000
Simon Mignolet   £9,000,000
Philippe Coutinho   £8,500,000
Iago Aspas   £7,200,000
Tiago Ilori   £7,000,000
Luis Alberto   £6,800,000
Rickie Lambert   £4,000,000
Oussama Assaidi   £2,400,000
Samed Yesil   £1,000,000
Joao Teixeira   £0
Javi Manquillo   £0
Kolo Toure   £0
Total   £214,400,000

Player   Signing Fee
Rodríguez    £63,000,000
Cristiano Ronaldo   £80,000,000
Gareth Bale   £85,300,000
Total   £228,300,000

Don't need to compare it to real. Compare it to chelsea's over the past three years. Chelsea haven't spent more than 35 mil on a player since torres. In that time they've bought oscar, costa, fabregas, mata (and sold for a healthy profit), willian, matic, felipe luis.

[4pool]

I just find it an interesting comparison, it's up to you if you want to draw conclusions.

Well let me ask this...if Liverpool never bought all those players on your list and saved up all that money....what type of team would we have had?

Even if we bought 2 of the 3 on your other list, the rest of the squad would be a little short of numbers at best.

[Titi Camara]

Well let me ask this...if Liverpool never bought all those players on your list and saved up all that money....what type of team would we have had?

Even if we bought 2 of the 3 on your other list, the rest of the squad would be a little short of numbers at best.

Would it though? If we had hung on and played a few more kids would we actully be any worse than we are now?

[vicgill]

What a pointless comparison, your argument is full of holes

so are his shoes

[Timbo's Goals]

Yeah, I guess I am somewhat at the other end of things to your posts....But all part of life's rich pageant.... but it is how I see things.

Let's hope we're all singing once again from the same Kop hymn sheet asap eh Zeb

 

Thanks for the nod to REM btw - whether deliberate or not. I'd forgotten all about it. It was the first one of their albums I bought after reading about in Q 20 odd years ago - mustn't have played it in almost that long too. Some amazing tracks on it - I've just ordered the CD from Amazon. Certainly beats all this fretting about the Reds.

 

[Timbo's Goals]

What argument?

Ha ha

Good response that. And a fair one too - if a weeny bit mischievous - as was the list. But hey - what's the problem. with those three in the team I'm convinced we'd have got at least a draw at Palace, maybe even snuck it.

 

[4pool]

Would it though? If we had hung on and played a few more kids would we actully be any worse than we are now?

ha, ha, ha.... going back 3 years when your list started, just how good of a team would we have without buying all those names on your list. And factor in we've let go some of those kids and just where are they today?

[Zeb]

Let's hope we're all singing once again from the same Kop hymn sheet asap eh Zeb

 

Thanks for the nod to REM btw - whether deliberate or not. I'd forgotten all about it. It was the first one of their albums I bought after reading about in Q 20 odd years ago - mustn't have played it in almost that long too. Some amazing tracks on it - I've just ordered the CD from Amazon. Certainly beats all this fretting about the Reds.

 

Some good songs on that album.

Not sure it's about singing from the same sheet - when has that ever happened? Just think the temptation to throw baby out with bath water may need tempering a little, and some seem all too ready to look half a world away to assign 'blame' for something. There are many valid criticisms to make as the club tries to create something sustainable. Do wonder whether that will always be the case until we start having sustained success again. That's pretty much the only way to silence doubts about anything to do with football. What we're seeing currently is not good, it's not been helped by the striker issue, but taking a step back and seeing it in the round is sometimes useful 70 pages in.

[Timbo's Goals]

Some good songs on that album.

Not sure it's about singing from the same sheet - when has that ever happened? Just think the temptation to throw baby out with bath water may need tempering a little, and some seem all too ready to look half a world away to assign 'blame' for something. There are many valid criticisms to make as the club tries to create something sustainable. Do wonder whether that will always be the case until we start having sustained success again. That's pretty much the only way to silence doubts about anything to do with football. What we're seeing currently is not good, it's not been helped by the striker issue, but taking a step back and seeing it in the round is sometimes useful 70 pages in.

 

Yer keep throwing them in - can't recall which album that is

 

[sattapaartridge]

Well let me ask this...if Liverpool never bought all those players on your list and saved up all that money....what type of team would we have had?

Very interesting!

                Reina

Johnson Skrtel  Agger Enrique

               Lucas
       Gerrard    Henderson

Ronaldo                    Messi
                 Suarez

[Titi Camara]

ha, ha, ha.... going back 3 years when your list started, just how good of a team would we have without buying all those names on your list. And factor in we've let go some of those kids and just where are they today?

-------------------Jones

Kelly------Wisdom----Coates----Flannagan

-------------Lucas----Henderson

--------------------Suso

----Rodríguez----Ronaldo----Bale 

Subs: Ward, Skrtel, Smith, Gerrard, Rossiter, Ibe, Sinclair

Would we be any worse off?

[Zeb]

Yer keep throwing them in - can't recall which album that is

 

We'll see. But I feel fine.

[rickardinho1]

Pay top wages get top players. Pay peanuts get monkeys.

The transfer fees and wages were high though, hardly the reason why the team isn't playing well together.

[Timbo's Goals]

We'll see. But I feel fine.

 

Agreed - it's not the end as we know it - but I did go down the fab four line at first. A omen for tonight maybe?

 

[4pool]

-------------------Jones

Kelly------Wisdom----Coates----Flannagan

-------------Lucas----Henderson

--------------------Suso

----Rodríguez----Ronaldo----Bale 

Subs: Ward, Skrtel, Smith, Gerrard, Rossiter, Ibe, Sinclair

Would we be any worse off?

I love line ups like this. Just pick a bunch of names and it's dead easy.

So go back again and just would have been our strikers? Suarez was here but not Sturridge, per your transfer list. I'd suggest to you and all those with their fancy lists, that a team that comes 7th, doesn't buy those names on your list and holds onto the money for 2 years, is not THAT likely to be anything but a mid table team. With nothing but kids from the reserves filling in the squad.

With that in mind, money in your pocket, no one with a straight face could see Ronaldo leaving Man Utd for us. Nor Bale leaving Spurs for us. And James would never in a million years leave to come to us with or without Madrid keen. Regardless of those transfer fees being "affordable" for any of them.

This may work on Championship Manager or FIFA 2014 or some such where you can buy who you want.

So that is why it is folly to claim we spent X on these and we could have bought those. It just doesn't work like that.

[Nessy76]

Player   Signing Fee
Rodríguez    £63,000,000
Cristiano Ronaldo   £80,000,000
Gareth Bale   £85,300,000
Total   £228,300,000

No idea what this is supposed to prove, but we could have had C Ronaldo for £5m, and Bale for the same. Thommo put the stops on the Ronaldo move, and the board refused to spend that much on an unproven youngster in Bale when Rafa wanted to sign him. (See also, Walcott, Ramsey and half the Man City squad)

[sattapaartridge]

To be honest, I totally agree, just thought it was an interesting concept to see what kind of starting 11 we'd have if we did just spank £200m on star players.

What we've done, is bought a squad. Not a starting 11, a squad. This is probably what has angered fans. We've not improved the starting 11, bar the fullbacks. At forward, we've been weakened. At CM, we've stagnated. At wing, we've stagnated. Lallana is yet to show his £20million worth of talent. At Centre Back we've actually weakened. At keeper, we've stagnated. As a whole, we're woefully out of form, no one is trying to drive through the lines and score a goal. A barnes, a mcmanaman, a stevie aged 25. I had high hopes for both Coutinho and Sterling this season, but theyve really just not done anything particularly special. I think the "blooding in" of Balotelli has hindered them, and now they're stuck in a state of lost confidence.

I have total confidence in this group of players. I really like the look of Emre Can, who looks like a natural leader. Sahko could come good for us, Kolo looks determined.  Lallana shows flashes of brilliance. But the key one for me is Markovic. He really needs to up his game and become the player we need him to become. While all the pressure is on the youngsters and new players to stand up to the plate, our goalscorers arent scoring and are injured.

But its the defence that has us in this position. If we are blunt upfront, we cannot just let players score so easily against us. Lovren has been a lost cause, and Mignolet just stays on his line. I think if we improve our keeper and CB positions, we can start to play without fear.

[4pool]

No idea what this is supposed to prove, but we could have had C Ronaldo for £5m, and Bale for the same. Thommo put the stops on the Ronaldo move, and the board refused to spend that much on an unproven youngster in Bale when Rafa wanted to sign him. (See also, Walcott, Ramsey and half the Man City squad)

I thought the story was Ged had Ronaldo  for near £5m but Man Utd came in and upped the fee to £12 mil and the board didn't want to spend that much on an 18 year old teenager.

[Nessy76]

I thought the story was Ged had Ronaldo  for near £5m but Man Utd came in and upped the fee to £12 mil and the board didn't want to spend that much on an 18 year old teenager.

No. We were interested, but Phil Thompson went out to see him and decided not to go ahead with the move because he wanted £1m a year which was far more than we were paying La Tallec and Pongolle. He didn't think it was worth upsetting the French "gems" so he called off the deal. (That's Thommo's own version of events, and it would be weird for him to make that up when he could easily say the money wasn't available or the fee was too high.) United only came in after we'd decided not to go ahead with the deal, and ended up paying a lot more than we would have as Ronaldo really wanted to sign for Liverpool.

For me, the moral of this story (along with Bale and the rest) is that you have to have faith in signing young players of potential, rather than going after big-money established stars all the time. They won't all come good, but they don't all have to. So the fact we've brought in Markovic, Can, Moreno and Manquillo, exciting young players who still have a lot of improvement in them, will serve us well in the long term.

[istvan kozma]

For me, the moral of this story (along with Bale and the rest) is that you have to have faith in signing young players of potential, rather than going after big-money established stars all the time. They won't all come good, but they don't all have to. So the fact we've brought in Markovic, Can, Moreno and Manquillo, exciting young players who still have a lot of improvement in them, will serve us well in the long term.

[EFoley1991]

Joao Teixeira was brought in under kenny . . . dunno why he is added to the list of Rodgers signings.

[MolbyLovesGravlax]

Read the Rodgers piece with his quotes about not buying players in Jan. my suspicious mind wonders if he hasn't already had word from above that no money will be spent and he has to fix it on the training ground.
Although we obviously shouldn't be spending big after last summer, I do think bringing in nobody when you are playing poorly is a mistake. Someone fresh gives the fans some optimism and it can lift the players as well.

[4pool]

No. We were interested, but Phil Thompson went out to see him and decided not to go ahead with the move because he wanted £1m a year which was far more than we were paying La Tallec and Pongolle. He didn't think it was worth upsetting the French "gems" so he called off the deal. (That's Thommo's own version of events, and it would be weird for him to make that up when he could easily say the money wasn't available or the fee was too high.) United only came in after we'd decided not to go ahead with the deal, and ended up paying a lot more than we would have as Ronaldo really wanted to sign for Liverpool.

For me, the moral of this story (along with Bale and the rest) is that you have to have faith in signing young players of potential, rather than going after big-money established stars all the time. They won't all come good, but they don't all have to. So the fact we've brought in Markovic, Can, Moreno and Manquillo, exciting young players who still have a lot of improvement in them, will serve us well in the long term.

Ta.

Hadn't heard the Tommo version.

[jordyball10]

Don't need to compare it to real. Compare it to chelsea's over the past three years. Chelsea haven't spent more than 35 mil on a player since torres. In that time they've bought oscar, costa, fabregas, mata (and sold for a healthy profit), willian, matic, felipe luis.

This is a fair point, however compare Chelsea wage budget to ours. LFC have never been a team to pay the biggest wages. Steven Gerrard is probably our highest earner in the team. MCFC, CFC, MUFC pay massive massive wages and that's the biggest attraction to get the players in unfortunately.

[Zlen]

We need to sell players, lot of them, not buy more. Plenty to work with for Rodgers - he really can't complain.

[Nessy76]

Ta.

Hadn't heard the Tommo version.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/made-move-land-shearer-4m-3526764

ONE star who got away in surprising fashion was Cristiano Ronaldo, who shocked us when he signed for Manchester United in 2003, for an astonishing #12m. I say astonishing because we had been offered the player for #4m.

"I was invited to watch Sporting Lisbon play Porto in the last game of the season. Ronaldo was playing for Sporting. Tony Henry, the former Manchester City player and agent, was on the phone on a regular basis to see if he could take us to watch him.

"I met Tony at the airport and travelled to Porto. I met the player's Portuguese agent before watching the game. Ronaldo was quite good, but not as impressive as the first time I saw him. Tony was pushing the boy and saying he was a talent. He was saying: 'He will only cost #4m.'

"He added: 'It can be paid over the course of his contract, #1m a year.'

"He also said that the player wanted #1m tax free. I said: 'The boy is only 18. That is a massive problem,' but Tony suggested it was negotiable.

"I returned back the following day impressed with what I had seen andmentioned it to Gerard. He said: 'I will ask Rick.'

"We had just signed Florent SinamaPongolle and Anthony Le Tallec, both on far less than Ronaldo's aspirations. And we would have had anarchy if the other players had found out how much we were considering paying for an 18-year-old kid.

"We looked for a compromise. Ten days later I was sitting in a lounge at Anfield having some lunch and looking at the big TV screen. Up came the news United had signed Ronaldo from Lisbon for #12.2m. Gerard and myself nearly choked on our food.

"Gerard said: 'Contact Tony Henry,' and I went straight out and rang him. I said: 'what happened? More importantly, what happened with the price?' He said: 'After you had been with me, I got a phone call the following week and was told to drop everything on the deal. Hand on heart, I really don't know what happened.'

"I went back and told Gerard the story. What happened, God only knows. For the fee to jump from #4m to #12m, especially as they seemed so desperate, was surprising to say the least."

Slightly different to what I said above, but the basics are there.

[4pool]

Again, ta..

[theMilkman]

This is a fair point, however compare Chelsea wage budget to ours. LFC have never been a team to pay the biggest wages. Steven Gerrard is probably our highest earner in the team. MCFC, CFC, MUFC pay massive massive wages and that's the biggest attraction to get the players in unfortunately.

That's why i said over the past three years. They don't pay crazy wages the way the Manchester sides do anymore. From what gets reported in the press, their highest earners are fabregas and costa, both on 200kpw. From the rest only Terry, cech and hazard are over 100kpw. Their total wage bill was most recently at 179mpy, ours at 132mpy. That was may 2013. We can expect ours to have gone up about 20mil from the squad expansion, theirs has supposedly stayed the same from having released cole, torres and lampard. According to the Telegraph their annual wage bill is expected to be overtaken by arsenal in the next records. I can't stand the plastic wankfests but financially they've done pretty well with their transfers recently.

Also gerrard is our highest on 150 along with sturridge, suarez was on 200.

[bigbear]

We must be struggling, that knob Grobbelaar has started to spout his bile again. Whatever Mignolet does he won't ever drag the name of the club down like he did.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Read the Rodgers piece with his quotes about not buying players in Jan. my suspicious mind wonders if he hasn't already had word from above that no money will be spent and he has to fix it on the training ground.
Although we obviously shouldn't be spending big after last summer, I do think bringing in nobody when you are playing poorly is a mistake. Someone fresh gives the fans some optimism and it can lift the players as well.

Aren't there FFP rules to adhere to with all the comings and goings?  Lucas, Borini may leave but not sure one or two players are going to make the difference with this team at this point...  Would love Shaqiri and Martinez, but this would be a shitload in cost.

[Mutton Geoff]

We must be struggling, that knob Grobbelaar has started to spout his bile again. Whatever Mignolet does he won't ever drag the name of the club down like he did.

excuse me even ex players deserve respect remember that or we might think you are the knob posting bile.

[QC]

Read the Rodgers piece with his quotes about not buying players in Jan. my suspicious mind wonders if he hasn't already had word from above that no money will be spent and he has to fix it on the training ground.
Although we obviously shouldn't be spending big after last summer, I do think bringing in nobody when you are playing poorly is a mistake. Someone fresh gives the fans some optimism and it can lift the players as well.

If Rodgers isn't given money in January it's a very bad sign.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

If Rodgers isn't given money in January it's a very bad sign.

It is an indication of the pottery barn rule:  You broke it, you fix it....   

Of course I resent it to hell, since I agree with Timbo here that the post Suarez planning, well it was not good.  Or maybe, there were other goals to consider that we do not know about.

Bad sign indeed.

[MolbyLovesGravlax]

Aren't there FFP rules to adhere to with all the comings and goings?  Lucas, Borini may leave but not sure one or two players are going to make the difference with this team at this point...  Would love Shaqiri and Martinez, but this would be a shitload in cost.

Yeah, but we were still at least semi interested is some deals that didn't get done in the summer. Even with FFP I think we had some money to spend.
We are not spunking 50 million that is for sure, but you don't have to. If we are still in a downward spiral in Jan then spending nothing will not instill any confidence at any level. It might require ignoring the 'policy' though and looking for an unwanted veteran who we would be losing money on, but who has been there and done that and can do the job required from day 1. Whether that is a commanding keeper or a defensive leader or a holding midfielder who knows every trick in the book or a guy who will score you goals.

[bigbear]

excuse me even ex players deserve respect remember that or we might think you are the knob posting bile.

I respect them all Geoff. Even the ones I didn't like or rate.

However, I don't respect someone that I believe dragged the club's name through the mud over taking bribes to throw Liverpool games. We can all have our opinion on that affair but irrespective of whether you believe he was guilty or not, he was mixing in some very questionable company and on the best interpretation of it all, he did drag the club's name through the mud.

I don't like the fella. If it was conclusively proved that he was guilty of the charges there is no punishment you could think of that would be too bad for him.

[Mutton Geoff]

I respect them all Geoff. Even the ones I didn't like or rate.

However, I don't respect someone that I believe dragged the club's name through the mud over taking bribes to throw Liverpool games. We can all have our opinion on that affair but irrespective of whether you believe he was guilty or not, he was mixing in some very questionable company and on the best interpretation of it all, he did drag the club's name through the mud.

I don't like the fella. If it was conclusively proved that he was guilty of the charges there is no punishment you could think of that would be too bad for him.

Come on he isn't the first Liverpool lad who kept dodgy mates,and i go along the view that innocent till proven guilty, if it was proved i would be alongside  you giving him pelters.

[bigbear]

Come on he isn't the first Liverpool lad who kept dodgy mates,and i go along the view that innocent till proven guilty, if it was proved i would be alongside  you giving him pelters.

He's the first to be caught on tape talking about throwing matches and then later describing it as a double bluff or whatever excuse he tried to give. It was seedy. From memory it was found he had taken bribes but couldn't be proved he had fixed matches or something of that ilk. He ended up getting damages of £1 didn't he and made to pay his own costs so he obviously didn't walk away with his reputation enhanced.

You can make your own judgement on him Geoff, I'll make mine.

[bigbear]

He's the first to be caught on tape talking about throwing matches and then later describing it as a double bluff or whatever excuse he tried to give. It was seedy. From memory it was found he had taken bribes but couldn't be proved he had fixed matches or something of that ilk. He ended up getting damages of £1 didn't he and made to pay his own costs so he obviously didn't walk away with his reputation enhanced.

You can make your own judgement on him Geoff, I'll make mine.

Just found these quotes from the Judges presiding on Grobbelaar's appeal on the libel case.

But Lord Bingham said: 'He had in fact acted in a way in which no decent or honest footballer would act, and in a way which could, if not exposed and stamped on, undermine the integrity of a game which earns the loyalty and support of millions.


'It would be an affront to justice if a court of law were to award substantial damages to a man shown to have acted in such flagrant breach of his legal and moral obligations.'


Lord Millett agreed, saying: 'It would be an affront to justice if a man who accepts bribes to throw matches should obtain damages for the loss of reputation as a professional sportsman merely because he cannot be shown to have carried out his part of the bargain.'

[Ken-Obi]

So, we've moved on from crisis, Brendan's job, Gerrard, transfers and Suarez to Grobbelaar?