Topic: The unravelling. A team, manager and fans shafted by transfer incompetence

[Mutton Geoff]

It seems odd to be looking to find a scapegoat for perceived mistakes, and they are perceived because we can only really judge the success or failure of any signing over a longer period of time, within a system intended to be collegiate with the manager having the final say. There will be shortlists drawn up and there will be disagreements over signings. There are also limits outside of the control of anyone at Liverpool - whether that's a player choosing to go elsewhere or whether a specific player (type of player) of the required quality is available. Seems like there's no 'win' situation outside of very clear success. And that kind of success is often based upon gambles going well. Whether that's Sturridge not being injured or whether it's another flaw in the player not proving to be so much of an issue for at least a period of time. Or it's based on a reality which does not exist for this club yet.

So I'm kind of bemused by people seeking to pin the tail on this particular donkey. This is fundamentally, but with perhaps more managerial control, the same recruitment process which brought in Sturridge and Coutinho. People pissed their knickers about the prospect of Bertrand signing, and there he is in the Southampton team so many are now falling over themselves to praise. What Southampton have got is a way of working and identifying players to fit in to what they want to do. And they do the same with coaches/managers. It's fairly bedded down there now, and has been done without the level of scrutiny which comes with Liverpool. We're still working towards finding that for us. It's a long term thing which beds down and sustains over time. We've got much higher base expectations than Southampton, as can be seen by the noise at the moment, and that feeds into the difficulty of us doing this.

For me, it's much too soon to begin judging signings. Which is not to say that I personally don't have concerns. We had to take a punt on Mario. And anyone with sense knows it was a gamble. He scores 10 to 15 goals this season and it's a gamble which is starting to pay off. If he doesn't, then it's money lost. Were there players there to pick up instead? I can't shake the feeling that cheaper gambles would be equally damned if they did not pay off. I've seen enough lists of the 'failed signings' to think I may be right on that - oh and the sniffiness over some players we did look at over the summer. And I don't subscribe to the belief that we aren't trying to bring in very high quality players. Is that failure of scouting? Or is it combination of things all feeding through? We got that young Belgian lad only because we were willing to be flexible over bringing him in. We missed out on a very good player because he chose not to come here. Goodness knows what happens in our medicals but there went another. Liverpool Football Club are competing with other clubs for a relatively small pool of talent.

We're in a shit spell of form. We've a lot of new players adjusting at the same time. Many of the new players have not been helped by injuries. We've had a World Cup summer with several of our regulars involved which will have a knock on effect too. The team's morale looks like it has tanked. But I'd rather just give it time and see what happens. Most of the signings so far have had moments of promise, but the test now is one for our manager to get that team playing together and cohesively without making brainfart mistakes and errors. Much too soon for me to start looking for the sole person responsible for bringing in last summer's signings - and I think should that time come then you won't be looking for one person, and you'd really have to sit down and think through just what the long term planning for the club is and whether what we're doing has been so horribly wrong over the past couple of years that we need to try something else. Don't think the evidence is in to say either way just yet. But last summer's dealings will be a mix of the flops and the alrights and hopefully one or two fucking quality ones. Because that's pretty much the story for every club's signings.

A diamond of a post well done.

[plura]

I share the idea we need to sell players. If that's our approach, we can sign someone new. If we sell one or two strikers in January, there is room for a new one. I'm with you there.

Where we differ is I think we need to find the solution primarily from within. Reason being we haven't got time to wait. We have to use what we have. If we don't get our game to work before New Year, this season will be pretty much dead for us.

Sure it's a risk. I'm aware of that.

But how many strikers do Chelsea have? Costa, Drogba, Remy. Mourinho typically shifts between 4-3-3 and 4-4-2 with a diamond midfield. Similar to us last season. We now have a preference for a lone striker. Costa has a recent history of injuries. Drogba is a clear backup. Remy is not this world class player, he's a risk if we go with the failed medical. I'd say we're very similar to them with Sturridge, Lambert and Balotelli. Why would we need more options than them? If we go with Sturridge, Origi and one more, we should be OK.
My point is we have more options than them now. What edge does that give us? None. We have more strikers now than last season. For no benefit. Let's stop collecting players so we're safe in every possible scenario. Have less players and play them more often. If we're not happy with our options, sell and replace.

The change in style of play, it was bound to happen this season. Suarez is gone. We were always going to have to adapt. When we added strikers and attacking midfielders, we forced change upon ourselves. We perhaps made it bigger than it had to be. It was our choice. We have new circumstances and we need to adapt to them. It's not much of a choice really, we have to.

Well they for a start have a pretty decent defence. We don't have the superior attack this year. More options for sure, but worse ones also for sure. Ok a injury free Daniel IMO is my (easily) preferred option. But theirs are also pretty safe ones from what we can see now, we can only hope in Balotelli and Origi so far really.

[Fiasco]

Lallana, Balotelli, Lambert, Lovren

These 4 cost the best part of £65M. They weren't signed for their potential, they were signed as proven players.

Lovren and Balotelli proven? Stretching the word 'proven' to it's limits there. And Lambert was a solid option, a 32-year old veteran cannot be considered a major signing.

[Gnurglan]

Their modus operandi is more with less. Out think the wasteful competitors. Be smarter. Be more strategic. Be ruthless.

At no point have they ever said "our strategy is to just outbuy everyone else".

Actually that's not true.

There was a bunch of people clamouring for that a couple of seasons ago.

So, we ended up going and smashing the club and English transfer record and ended up Andy Carroll.

No chance they're going to compromise on their principles again now sorry folks.

If you want ridiculous money spent on players it's prob not going to happen here (and culturally, we probably would much prefer the outthink/more value/better sum of parts anyway)

FSG have some sound ideas. I don't think we should blame them for being in a mess now. But IMO we are not seeing a great deal of benefits from our transfer policy. We are among the most wasteful around. In fact, I struggle to find anyone who has been as bad as us. We try to be clever, but to think we've bought Carroll, Downing, Borini, Allen, Lovren, Markovic, Lallana and Balotelli for 160M, where not a single player was, or appear to be, more than a squad player, it's just mind blowing. Average transfer fee: 20M. For that kind of money we should have guaranteed starters.

FSG need to be complete idiots not to understand how much we can improve here.

[Kopenhagen]

Lovren and Balotelli proven? Stretching the word 'proven' to it's limits there. And Lambert was a solid option, a 32-year old veteran cannot be considered a major signing.

Balotelli was a moneyball punt. However, I don't think the club ever envisioned him not scoring a goal in the league. (We should have never let ourselves take 'punts' on important positions that need addressing - but that's another matter...)

Lovren was definitely signed at a premium as an immediate upgrade, as someone who could come straight in and produce. Unlike Markovic, he wasn't signed primarily for his potential.

[Pistolero]

FSG have some sound ideas. I don't think we should blame them for being in a mess now. But IMO we are not seeing a great deal of benefits from our transfer policy. We are among the most wasteful around. In fact, I struggle to find anyone who has been as bad as us. We try to be clever, but to think we've bought Carroll, Downing, Borini, Allen, Lovren, Markovic, Lallana and Balotelli for 160M, where not a single player was, or appear to be, more than a squad player, it's just mind blowing. Average transfer fee: 20M. For that kind of money we should have guaranteed starters.

FSG need to be complete idiots not to understand how much we can improve here.

Heads will roll because of this season...ive no doubt about that....probably Ian Ayre's, possibly the manager's...and definitely the two plantpots we got from Man City....FSG are no mugs - they wont let this car-crash of a transfer committee continue unchecked

[Gnurglan]

Well they for a start have a pretty decent defence. We don't have the superior attack this year. More options for sure, but worse ones also for sure. Ok a injury free Daniel IMO is my (easily) preferred option. But theirs are also pretty safe ones from what we can see now, we can only hope in Balotelli and Origi so far really.

Yes, they have a better defence. Their midfield is more solid. Why then, do we think our solution is a striker?

Last season we had an edge in our attacking game. Now we don't. I believe our idea was to get attacking threat from more players post Suarez. And to improve our defence. So, accept that we'd be worse in attack, and compensate by having a better defence. It's what I see in our signings. I agree with that policy. Even though it's fallen flat.

[GIPPO77]

Add in the money wasted on Yesil, Ilori, Aasiadi, ,Aspas, and it's just a farce.

[Gnurglan]

Heads will roll because of this season...ive no doubt about that....probably Ian Ayre's, possibly the manager's...and definitely the two plantpots we got from Man City....FSG are no mugs - they wont let this car-crash of a transfer committee continue unchecked

Unless we get back on track and finish top four, or have some miracle season in the CL, I expect what you mentioned. And it's hard to argue against it.

[Packalacky]

Lovren and Balotelli proven? Stretching the word 'proven' to it's limits there. And Lambert was a solid option, a 32-year old veteran cannot be considered a major signing.

Balotelli has played for Inter, Man City, Milan  and was Italy's main striker at the 2012 Euros and 2014 WC. Are you seriously suggesting that he isn't "proven"?

Lovren  is more up for debate, but he had been in England for a year and performed very well, and has been a regular for his country, so he's not an unknown quality, hence his price tag. We didn't buy him for "potential".

[Mutton Geoff]

Add in the money wasted on Yesil, Ilori, Aasiadi, ,Aspas, and it's just a farce.

Thats a very poor post in my opinion

 Ilori will definitely be here in our squad next season

 and the other poor lad Yesil is not long back from two serious injuries

 as for Assaidi and Aspas we will get our money back on both.

[GIPPO77]

So, Geoff they are good signings then?

[Mutton Geoff]

So, Geoff they are good signings then?

read it again and tell me what i said,  two certainly are and the other two will be sold at no loss, christ you are clutching straws if thats all you have got to argue about,

i bet you cannot tell me how much they all cost together!

[4pool]

Heads will roll because of this season...ive no doubt about that....probably Ian Ayre's, possibly the manager's...and definitely the two plantpots we got from Man City....FSG are no mugs - they wont let this car-crash of a transfer committee continue unchecked

FSG are no mugs.

But unlike some in here they know the mitigating circumstance of Sturridge being out so long. They also are fully aware of the transfer strategy.
Once Daniel gets back and we start winning, then FSG will know it was just "luck" that the first half of the season was so poor. They will understand bedding in players.

And as Rodgers mentioned "we" were ahead of schedule last season, FSG have an idea what that schedule is.

Ayre and Rodgers will both be here next season.

[Pistolero]

FSG are no mugs.

But unlike some in here they know the mitigating circumstance of Sturridge being out so long. They also are fully aware of the transfer strategy.
Once Daniel gets back and we start winning, then FSG will know it was just "luck" that the first half of the season was so poor. They will understand bedding in players.

And as Rodgers mentioned "we" were ahead of schedule last season, FSG have an idea what that schedule is.

Ayre and Rodgers will both be here next season.

nah..

[steveeastend]

Rodgers will defninitely be here next season, I am very sure of that.

[na fir dearg]

This whole transfer committee nonsense needs to be sorted out also. We seem to be finding plenty of quality players but for various reasons they arent get signed.
Our scouting must be improved upon also.

[-Daws-]

Well put as always, Zeb.

We should have done a bit better in the summer, I wouldn't dispute that, more in the sense that we should have bought another forward who could provide movement, pace and more of a goal threat (Remy was perfect), however with the players at Brendan's disposal, he should be doing a lot better.

I've been a huge advocate for Rodgers' methods, his coaching style, and the way he conducts himself over his entire time here, but so far this season I am left scratching my head over his team selections and tactics. At the end of he day, the buck stops with him and he should be doing much, much better.

[johnsmithlfc]

Heads will roll because of this season...ive no doubt about that....probably Ian Ayre's, possibly the manager's...and definitely the two plantpots we got from Man City....FSG are no mugs - they wont let this car-crash of a transfer committee continue unchecked

I really hope so.
We've been poor in the market since FSG took over (and well before too)
This fucking ineptitude simply cannot be allowed to continue.
From the dross of Downing , Carroll & Adam to the mediocrity of Lovren, Lambert & Balotelli.
Enough is enough.
It's not like we haven't spent money.

Regarding our new "Scouting team" I reckon Man City paid these Fucking "scouts" (I use that very loosely) to come and sabotage us.
It has to be that...they're Fucking useless.

[keyop]

However if you look at the transfers we made this summer other than the last minute semi marquee player they all made sense on paper and at the time

we bought or loaned two wing backs in an area that needs a total overhaul,
Can a young player good pedigree strong, well coached, built like a tank will be our powerhouse,
Lambert plan B we needed one he is a good one on last seasons form,
Lallana skillful player picks a pass out well, also a good signing on last seasons form
Lovren love him or not last season he was one of the best CB's in the league, of course you are all now experts and knew he was shit 
Origi grabbed him quick ahead of the rest for once loaned him back as part of the deal
Markovic brilliant young prospect on last seasons form definately one to bring in if you believe in looking at the bigger picture.

And then Mario get him right he will prove his ability in spades as of yet we haven't seen his best quite possibly we might never see it but i live in hope.

Now forget what has happened since other than the usual we paid too much blah blah blah part time accountants,  not many of you called any of them out as rubbish deals except Mario but by then you were all pissed about not getting sanchez.

Hindsight is a wonderful if only managers and clubs could use it earlier 

In fact i would say the biggest error above all this season is Rodgers not playing some of these signings more often

That's a really good summary, and when we consider that Balotelli was far from our first choice, I see very little that the club or transfer committee did wrong at the time.

However, the Telegraph have kindly posted a list of culprits, so perhaps all the blame boys on here can write them all a letter instead of posting the same drivel on here every day like a stuck record.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/11252182/The-six-men-who-must-share-Liverpool-blame.html

[redk84]

It wouldn't be so horrible right now if it wasn't so confusing....

Putting aside transfers, which have been done to death, its the overall direction of our style of play which is hard to see. What are you trying to do with the team Brendan??

The simple and glaring mistakes that are made by our players.....the apathy some of them show on matchdays. The stubborness in team selections and formations that seem to fail time and time again (maybe sometime in the future it will all come together but doesnt seem to be anytime soon!). Substitutions sometimes being baffling and the form of players new and old leaving a lot to be desired.

So not much wrong apart from that!

Deep breaths, hard work, focus on direction and sticking together through this is whats needed! Whatever the hell is going on with this club.....this curse needs to be lifted.

I know we're only 5 points off fourth but its hard to think too far ahead at the moment. 1 game at a time right?

[Pistolero]

Rodgers will defninitely be here next season, I am very sure of that.

The only thing I'm sure of is that FSG won't be releasing a penny/dime in the January window...

[Draex]

The only thing I'm sure of is that FSG won't be releasing a penny/dime in the January window...

And you know this how? Stop talking rubbish or post some evidence.

There is money left over from summer, otherwise questions should be asked at exactly what is happening to all our revenue.

[4pool]

It's not the transfer committee....


We have a few people on that committee but they rely upon the evaluations of our scouts and I suspect they have a subscription to various stat/metrics that they use.

As we have fired some scouts this season already...i'd suggest matters have been taken into hand. You are only as good as the information you are given. No way can committee members go visit every player they have records on and have asked the scouts to go watch numerous times. So they rely upon the scouting reports.

[Caffeine]

First of all, welcome!

I agree we shouldn't think about replacing the manager. It's too early for that and we've seen what he can do. You don't create a side that scores 100 goals by accident.

I disagree that we should lower our expectations. OK, this season's title challenge is gone already. It's over and in that regard it's not realistic to believe we can challenge. So that expectation needs to be lowered. However, my expectations have not dropped with regards to how we could challenge. My basic formula is still the same. We should expect the team to beat the sides on the bottom half of the table. Home and away. I don't want to hear excuses. Even if we're down to 10 men from a bad mistake from the ref in the first minute, I don't want to hear excuses. We need to find a way to win. On the other hand, I don't 'expect' us to win against any of the top half sides. People will of course challenge such a simple method, but that's the one I go with. Because it's something to hold on to. It's a way to set a (realistic) standard.

This method is also why I'm very disappointed with our season so far.

* Chelsea, City, Everton, Southampton, Spurs: 2-1-2.
Those results are actually quite good. Certainly in line with expectations of a top side. Good enough to challenge for the title and definitely for top four.

* Hull, West Ham, Newcastle, Crystal Palace, Aston Villa, QPR and WBA: 2-1-4.
Now here's the problem. This is where we're talking 7-0-0 or 6-1-0 as a reference. We've lost >12 points here. And this is why we won't challenge for the title. Those results are dreadful. It's the performance you'd expect from the relegation candidates. What makes it worse is that even the QPR win was extremely lucky.

What we could do from now and to the end of the season, is to get back on track. And that is still my expectation. If we get back to winning ways (and follow this formula of mine), then we have something to build on. We could easily say that where we lost the title challenge/top four, was in those four games vs expected bottom half sides. If we end up there, I reckon we'll have done a good job. Our conclusion would be that we need to make the team function earlier in the season. So it could become a pre-season preparation issue and not so much a "spend, spend, spend" issue. Nor a "replacement for Sturridge" thing. Not even a "we're crap at scouting" thing.

But if we continue like now, where we drop points everywhere, then it's more serious. Because then it's more likely that the conclusion is we can't find a way or a system to play. Or that our players are not good enough. Or that we're mentally weak. Or all of those. And then we'd have to work to correct that.

Nothing to add other than loving your posts in here Gnurglan.

[Anywhichwayicant]

FSG are no mugs.

But unlike some in here they know the mitigating circumstance of Sturridge being out so long. They also are fully aware of the transfer strategy.
Once Daniel gets back and we start winning, then FSG will know it was just "luck" that the first half of the season was so poor. They will understand bedding in players.

And as Rodgers mentioned "we" were ahead of schedule last season, FSG have an idea what that schedule is.

Ayre and Rodgers will both be here next season.

Fantasy stuff.

[robertobaggio37]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-11-25/boston-red-sox-spend-183-million-to-upgrade-offense.html

[clinical]

You can count on one hand the good signings we've made this decade. (Since 2010) that alone is mind boggling and fucking worrying. We make the same mistakes year on year. We sign players very few other clubs want for high prices. The likes of the other top 5 being scared when we signed lallana lovren and balotelli. Bet your fucking arses they weren't.

[Kopenhagen]

FSG are no mugs.

But unlike some in here they know the mitigating circumstance of Sturridge being out so long. They also are fully aware of the transfer strategy.
Once Daniel gets back and we start winning, then FSG will know it was just "luck" that the first half of the season was so poor. They will understand bedding in players.

And as Rodgers mentioned "we" were ahead of schedule last season, FSG have an idea what that schedule is.

Ayre and Rodgers will both be here next season.

So, the fact that we've had one good performance all season, is just us being "unlucky."

[collytum]

We were ahead of schedule last season, but the transfer window was such a monumental fuck up and we are now no better than in Rodgers first season in charge. There is a little bit of bad luck involved, ie Sturridge, but to blame our season to date on luck is naive at best and complete ignorance at worst. We are shocking right now.

[4pool]

So, the fact that we've had one good performance all season, is just us being "unlucky."

Would that one good performance be Spurs?

If so, that's the only match this season where Sturridge and Balotelli started together.

[groove]

Friendly warning: Do not watch Suarez's goal for Barca tonight. I repeat... do NOT watch Suarez's goal for Barca tonight.

[wige]

Really liked that. Nice to see shades of grey and reasoning applied to transfer discussions...

I just wanted to add the point of team/group forming to the discussion. Clearly there are other issues with us right now - team selection, individual quality, manager/senior staff/owner experience - but the transition from a close knit bunch of 13-14 regular players, to a squad of 20 is not as straightforward as sitting them down for 2 weeks and telling them your plans.

Can
Moreno
Manquillo
Balotelli
Markovic
Lallana (I ALWAYS begin typing his name with an "Ll" )
Lovren
Lambert

That's 8 new people. Arriving into a well established team and group. A group used to: working in a particular way, it's environment, expectations, mindset, fanbase, Manager, Captain, heirachy etc - a living breathing community.

Half are 20 or under. There are 6 different nationalities with the potential language and culture issues. Of the older ones, 1 is a former Scunthorpe player, at the end of a brilliant career, playing for his dream club. Piece of piss that. Lallana/Lovren both making big step up in expectation terms. The other is Mario Balotelli.

All arrive with the club expected to win the league or challenge for it. At the least, securing a top four spot come May. Think of the pressure and expectancy. The fact that your performance levels are beamed to a fanbase of reportedly 1/14 of the worlds population.

It's taken me about 3-6 months to settle into any office environment I've worked in!

Rogers won me over last season - yeah he's a great in a press conference and talks a lot - but he talks sense. And he's proven himself - he can build a group. A togetherness and hunger and team spirit. It's not there at the moment. This is where you back him. It might take a season to develop a personality/a person. It might take 18 months for a 20 year old Serbian to find his feet before competing at the level of Suarez/Sturridge/Sterling of 2013/14's second half.

Quickly, on the footballing reasons I think we're struggling. Nothing breathtakingly new.

Mignolet is a GK at a level of a 7-15th placed Prem team. He needs replacing. Sticking with the Cech shout, but would go balls out for Lloris if he's available.

Gerrard, without the aforementioned Suarez/Sturridge/Sterling (fit in body and mind) is not providing enough direct threat from deep. He cannot screen the defence at a high enough level. His legs have gone. 

These two positions are in turn heaping fucking huge pressure on the defence. Glen johnson looks like a player seeing out his contract, or one who was up making bongs all night. The other defenders get some slack from me, due to what's infront and behind them. That doesn't mean they've been great, or not made errors, but I think if they had a true top level keeper and an adept screening/defense of the space infront of them, then they would not face as much pressure. They might be less stressed and more able to perform highly at the key moments they face.

Attack. If Sturridge gets fit and stays fit, he'll make a huge difference. Huge. Teams won't press as high, leaving more space for whoever we want to play out of Sterling/Coutinho/Markovic/Lallana/Henderson/Moreno/Gerrard. Balotelli & Lambert are both players that will benefit from a striker partner as flexible as Sturridge.

I hope Rogers returns to rewarding performances/attitude with starting spots. Players, but more importantly, teams and a group dynamic, need to know that if they do something well it will be rewarded. Without that belief, those who lose out will lose respect of the decision making process, be de-motivated and potentially impact team and group confidence and dynamics.

[lionel_messias]

I think we're suited to a 442 currently, with two solid midfielders flanked by any two of Sterling, Lallana, Coutinho or Markovic, and then any two of Balotelli, Lambert and Borini up front.

I know it's not vogue to aspire towards a 442 but the parts we have fit that system right now.

I thought that a while ago and you might be right. Gerrard cannot be one of the "two" though.

[4pool]

I thought that a while ago and you might be right. Gerrard cannot be one of the "two" though.

We have tried 4-4-1-1 with Gerrard behind the striker before. Not sure Rodgers would try that but desperate measures and all that.

[clinical]

This has a feeling of Rafa's final season with us. Weird decisions alround and stubbornness to prove people wrong. He needs to ditch his favourites and find a winning team. I still think we should stand by him. But he needs to accept he fucked up in the summer. Ditch skrtel and lovren. Play anyone instead of them I dont care. They are awful. And play two upfront. Its got to be worth a try.

[Red_Mist]

<snip>

nice post that mate, and essentially quite a positive outlook on things. I think this team has a good run in it once Sturridge is back, and we often eventually come good when backed against the wall. I'd love to see us lift a pot this season, league cup obviously being the likeliest candidate. But the confidence it would bring would make a 'team' out of a group of players that are sorely lacking that spirit.

[rich87]

We could always play Gerrard in goal if we're so desperate to accommodate him - everyones been screaming for a keeper with better distribution - and none better than Gerrard. He's played in every other position for us (except maybe LB) and he wouldn't have to rely on pace or using his legs as much...

Win Win. If he can retrain as a DM at this time of his career surely Goalkeeper is worth a shot. 

[kcbworth]

You can count on one hand the good signings we've made this decade. (Since 2010) that alone is mind boggling and fucking worrying. We make the same mistakes year on year. We sign players very few other clubs want for high prices. The likes of the other top 5 being scared when we signed lallana lovren and balotelli. Bet your fucking arses they weren't.

Yet somehow these players nearly won us the league last season. In another dimension there's a thread about last called:

We're have a shot at the league... Love it when transfers come good!

[Mutton Geoff]

This has a feeling of Rafa's final season with us. Weird decisions alround and stubbornness to prove people wrong. He needs to ditch his favourites and find a winning team. I still think we should stand by him. But he needs to accept he fucked up in the summer. Ditch skrtel and lovren. Play anyone instead of them I dont care. They are awful. And play two upfront. Its got to be worth a try.

By feels like Rafas last season do you mean idiots on forums and phone ins sticking the boot in and the media lapping it up , if so you are quite right and the outcome was Hodgson so beware comparisons and also beware what you wish for! Losing Rafa put this club back at least 2 years through fans with little patience and even less balls!