Author Topic: Space exploration thread - Unexpected Rapid Disassembly in the launch area.  (Read 320399 times)

Online Red Beret

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1400 on: July 31, 2015, 04:27:33 pm »
I don't want to belittle the meaning of the results from Philae, but I'm just curious, wasn't that known before? I thought that most of the 23 protein-building acids were "known" (or perhaps believed) to exist on comets. I recall for certain that amino acids were found in the Stardust return samples (comet Wilde II).

Are more details available? (I'm sure they will be, just can't wait... ;) )

Ah but now we have the same data from two different cometary sources, which is a significant step in confirming a theory and proving that the Stardust samples weren't a fluke result ;)
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1401 on: July 31, 2015, 06:13:23 pm »
I searched briefly and I still can't find how did scientists "know" that almost all amino acids exist on comets. Can anyone give some pointers? I may have confused a hypothesis for a known fact in the past, but I thought that there was confidence in that knowledge. Stardust only found one or two amino acids in the coma, Philae brought evidence for a primordial soup on the surface, which (I expect) means almost all amino acids, so it's a much bigger proof.
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1402 on: August 1, 2015, 10:07:46 pm »
I have absolutely no idea which is the best thread to post this so I'm putting it here!

http://www.iflscience.com/editors-blog/watch-bill-nye-read-out-some-hilarious-mean-tweets-sent-him
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1403 on: August 4, 2015, 09:42:59 pm »
What would be everyone's next targets for probes to visit?  For me:

Io (because I just find it fascinating)
Europa (on the cards)
Uranus & Neptune (not nearly explored enough)
Enceladus
Rhea (to see if there are rings around it)
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Offline Mr Mingebag Squid

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1404 on: August 5, 2015, 09:21:59 am »
Definitely exploring the Jovian and Saturnian moons in more depth. I know we've got probes up there, but want more!! :)
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1405 on: August 5, 2015, 11:25:03 am »
I definitely think we should send an orbiter to Neptune.  As I mentioned earlier though, the real challenge is longevity. 

If you look at Cassini, it's been functioning for 18 years, but 7 of those were just to get to Saturn.  It has, at most, 18 months left (I believe due to propellant exhaustion).  This is frustrating for me because the probe is fully functional and has plenty of power.  If you look at this wiki article, transfer orbits back to Jupiter, or onto Uranus or Neptune are possible, although not likely options.

To explore Neptune adequately, you have to consider a minimum 40 year lifespan for the probe - most likely longer.  Like I said, changes out there happen very slowly; you'd need your probe to observe for at least 20 years, and that's without cruise time.  And once there they need fuel as much as they need power.

These are the natural challenges planetary exploration faces: developing sufficiently robust, long lived, efficient manoeuvring systems.  Although Neptune having only one major satellite makes for a simpler task of putting the probe in a stable orbit if threatened with fuel exhaustion.
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1406 on: August 5, 2015, 10:04:38 pm »
What would be everyone's next targets for probes to visit?  For me:

Io (because I just find it fascinating)
Is that you and Rosaly Lopes? ;D

She is a Planetary Science section manager at JPL, an excellent person. She has done extensive research on Io, named volcanoes there after Brazilian goddesses (she's from there originally), and you have to hear her speak about Io - such passion and enthusiasm is rarely seen.

But I'm afraid that Io has no serious science backing that can be used as a mission foundation

About the rest, I agree in general with Red Berret's take:
I definitely think we should send an orbiter to Neptune.  As I mentioned earlier though, the real challenge is longevity. 

If you look at Cassini, it's been functioning for 18 years, but 7 of those were just to get to Saturn.  It has, at most, 18 months left (I believe due to propellant exhaustion).  This is frustrating for me because the probe is fully functional and has plenty of power.  If you look at this wiki article, transfer orbits back to Jupiter, or onto Uranus or Neptune are possible, although not likely options.

To explore Neptune adequately, you have to consider a minimum 40 year lifespan for the probe - most likely longer.  Like I said, changes out there happen very slowly; you'd need your probe to observe for at least 20 years, and that's without cruise time.  And once there they need fuel as much as they need power.

These are the natural challenges planetary exploration faces: developing sufficiently robust, long lived, efficient manoeuvring systems.  Although Neptune having only one major satellite makes for a simpler task of putting the probe in a stable orbit if threatened with fuel exhaustion.
... but with some caveats.

ESA and NASA differ very much in their view for the future. NASA has their "Flagship mission" class, ESA has Class A (IIRC, was that the term?), which are the most expensive missions. A few years ago, I took (a bit remote) part in trying to formulate a joint project that can combine the resources of both institutions. It eventually came to nothing. ESA waned to explore Titan and Enceladus, NASA wanted Europa and Ganymede. ESA wanted to follow the hydrocarbons to the origins of organic life, which made a lot of sense, especially after the Huygens probe. Their proposal was also beautiful - an orbiter, a lander and a gondolfier (sp?; a flying balloon with atmospheric probes). But NASA wanted to take advantage of their huge resources already spent in the last 20-30 years in the development of radiation hard electronics. By radiation standards, Europa and Ganymede are far more challenging while Titan and Enceladus are considered a child's play (forgive the exaggeration). The picture below illustrates where Europa and Ganymede are in the radiation belts.



Pros and cons on both sides. A month or so ago, NASA made the announcement about Europa (previously existing as Europa Clipper project). Testing for technology development purposes have been ongoing for ages, and intensified before the announcement. All well, but to me, I'm not sure that the science return will be maximized. It comes to what Red Beret said - longevity. You all hear about missions like MER (Spirit and Opportunity rovers) that we designed to operate for 3 months and lasted 12 years. Sure but for one of these we have 10 of the opposite examples. The original mission for Curiosity was to drive 20km in the first year; we are now just past 10 km in the second year. Most science targets were met half-assed, but victory was declared. I hope the next rover is not such a piece of junk, to be honest; this is so much below our own standards, we can do a lot better with the reliability. SMAP that launched just a few months ago may be cancelled soon... Anyway, the point is that we cannot deduce longevity from one successful mission, we have to show a culture capable of building successfully long missions. IMHO, we as as far from that as we are from landing man on Mars.

One thing that Red Beret didn't touch on is that the long missions require long mission operation budgets, which eat up the funds from other missions (I had a post on that a few pages back. This is a serious problem. What organization will devote funds (at least $150M/year) 40 years into the future? That's $6bn. The worst case scenario is to build a spacecraft for, say Neptune, fly out for 10 years, the market crashes and NASA/ESA have budget cuts, go there, snap a few pictures and say "OK, we made it, end of mission".
« Last Edit: August 5, 2015, 10:09:44 pm by farawayred »
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1407 on: August 5, 2015, 10:21:01 pm »
One thing that Red Beret didn't touch on is that the long missions require long mission operation budgets, which eat up the funds from other missions (I had a post on that a few pages back. This is a serious problem. What organization will devote funds (at least $150M/year) 40 years into the future? That's $6bn. The worst case scenario is to build a spacecraft for, say Neptune, fly out for 10 years, the market crashes and NASA/ESA have budget cuts, go there, snap a few pictures and say "OK, we made it, end of mission".

Yes, I should have mentioned that one of the reasons transferring Cassini to Jupiter, Uranus or Neptune was the operation budgets and maintaining a Cassini "team".  A journey to Uranus could take 20 years; to Neptune 40 years, assuming the probe even lasts that long.  You have to wonder how many NASA bureaucrats would just love to pull the plug on Voyager if they thought they could get away with it.

On the other hand, New Horizons was designed and built specifically to be a "low cost" probe, with a hibernation mode that freed up personnel and communications resources for other missions.

It seems ridiculous but I honestly believe some people just feel Jupiter and its moons are "easier" to do.  Fewer technical and bureaucratic obstacles, with missions that can be self contained, easily defined, with a pre-determined cut-off point.
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1408 on: August 5, 2015, 10:48:00 pm »
And here is an image of the far side of the moon, snapped from one million miles away by the Deep Space Climate Explorer:

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1409 on: August 5, 2015, 10:51:35 pm »
Yes, I should have mentioned that one of the reasons transferring Cassini to Jupiter, Uranus or Neptune was the operation budgets and maintaining a Cassini "team".  A journey to Uranus could take 20 years; to Neptune 40 years, assuming the probe even lasts that long.  You have to wonder how many NASA bureaucrats would just love to pull the plug on Voyager if they thought they could get away with it.

On the other hand, New Horizons was designed and built specifically to be a "low cost" probe, with a hibernation mode that freed up personnel and communications resources for other missions.

It seems ridiculous but I honestly believe some people just feel Jupiter and its moons are "easier" to do.  Fewer technical and bureaucratic obstacles, with missions that can be self contained, easily defined, with a pre-determined cut-off point.
I feel that the outer planets can benefit from ion propulsion. It's slow acceleration, but ramp it up to half-way point, turn around and ramp it down for the rest of the way. We can reach very far in half the current time, maybe even better.

New Horizons is managed by APL for NASA. A university can afford to not pay attention for X amount of years, because students just go through, but the scientists stay. NASA is not the same, and I presume neither is ESA. We had many cases when we hire people for a mission, the mission gets built, we lay the people off and when something goes wrong, we can't find those who built it, or sometimes they don't even want to talk to us. Understandably so. The normal flux of students through a university always wins against hiring and lay-offs...

About how easier the Jupiter moons are, I don't know if people really believe that. We are developing a culture here, in which engineers dictate the conditions for scientists, and I strongly dislike that (and I'm on the engineering side, although, I'm a physicist by education). I can't count how many times the Curiosity drivers team prevented scientists for doing science, because the wheels "might" get more damaged... So fricken what?! This is a science tool after all, we did not land on Mars just to drive around!... The project used to be called Mars Science Lab, not Mars Driving something. Along those lines, engineers think that they can design rad-hard mission to Europa, therefore we should go to Europa. I find this stupid, to be honest, they don't know even what the science requirements are. But they are those that tend to be heard more. Who cares if scientists think that finding life on, say, Enceladus is more likely... I just don't know how to even react to such logic...
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1410 on: August 5, 2015, 11:05:01 pm »
It's classic tail wagging the dog syndrome mate.  What it means in practical terms is less clear to me; I suppose you could describe it as designing missions to fit within the technological capabilities rather than developing the technology to meet the aspirations of the mission.  To go back to Voyager, that really pushed technology to the edge, and it was one of the reasons the Pioneers were sent to explore the environment first.

I think the shuttle disasters may have played a part in this, but it wasn't scientists overruling the engineers back then; it was the bureaucrats.  Having engineers dictate mission parameters though?  This is the whole reason we send robots and not humans!
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Offline Trada

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« Last Edit: August 6, 2015, 10:20:46 am by Trada »
Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1412 on: August 6, 2015, 12:44:31 pm »
It's the Woman in Black!
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1413 on: August 6, 2015, 03:32:09 pm »
With her boobs out too, from the angle I'm looking at it from. What a find!

And what, about 6 inches tall?

If you want them, you can have them.



 ;D
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Offline Stevie-A

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1414 on: August 6, 2015, 03:36:18 pm »
Definite proof of life. Great find, and I cannot wait for an accelerated manned mission to make contact. Plus, they can check out this funky spider thingy while they are at it. Crazy stuff this pareidolia.

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1415 on: August 6, 2015, 05:55:10 pm »
Let's not beat around the bush - we've all had worse at one time or the other.

On a more serious note, does the tabloid media propagating nonsense like that frustrate you as scientists?
Not as much as Tsoukalos and Daniken.  :D
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1416 on: August 10, 2015, 08:31:57 pm »
I was watching the meteor shower the other night, which was not particularly spectacular (ten meteors in just over an hour) but I did witness something I've never seen before though! In a period of time that lasted about two minutes, I witnessed in more or less the same spot in the sky, four pin-points of light which became instantly intense and then completely disappeared! It must have been a slightly larger meteor that broke up into four, but which were coming directly towards me!!

Is this common? I've never heard of it meself, like.
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Offline outlaw_nas

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1417 on: August 10, 2015, 09:00:21 pm »
Aliens [emoji6]

Offline outlaw_nas

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1418 on: August 10, 2015, 09:00:59 pm »
Sorry for the lame attempt ^
When's best time
To look for the meteor shower?

Offline Dr. Beaker

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1419 on: August 10, 2015, 09:11:30 pm »
Sorry for the lame attempt ^
When's best time
To look for the meteor shower?
I think it peaks on the 13th, but it's going on most of the month - I was talking about Saturday night (I think, or maybe Friday).
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Offline outlaw_nas

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1420 on: August 10, 2015, 11:49:25 pm »
Excellent Twitter links. I already have the Iss app on phone which helps a lot.

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1421 on: August 10, 2015, 11:50:45 pm »
Trying to get Iss on telescope is so hard. This is tonight's on iPhone. Was v bright today

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1422 on: August 11, 2015, 05:34:09 pm »
Information regarding this year's Persieds:

http://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/meteor-shower/perseid.html

It's supposed to be clear skies in Liverpool tonight from around 10pm, and the meteors will be coming from the NE.  I live near Everton brow so I'm hoping the park and hills will provide enough darkness to try and have a peek.
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1423 on: August 11, 2015, 06:13:48 pm »
I'm flying at the peak of the Perseides from Los Angeles to Auckland; I wonder if I can see them fro 35000 ft... Need to check that part of the sky.
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1424 on: August 11, 2015, 06:38:13 pm »
I'm flying at the peak of the Perseides from Los Angeles to Auckland; I wonder if I can see them fro 35000 ft... Need to check that part of the sky.

You might have to change your seat. ;)
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1425 on: August 12, 2015, 12:39:10 am »
You might have to change your seat. ;)
It was a genuine question (which may show my ignorance). Perseus is visible at the NE at the time of my flight, and I know I'm flying in the exact opposite direction, but maybe I can see some passing by in the direction of the flight (as long as they don't hit ;) )
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1426 on: August 12, 2015, 12:45:47 am »
The Perseid meteor shower peaks tonight (Wednesday) so I'm gonna take a little drive out to somewhere a bit darker and try and spot a few. Any good places in and around Merseyside? I'm happy to drive out a bit further to somewhere in the North West if need be.

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1427 on: August 12, 2015, 06:47:01 am »
The Perseid meteor shower peaks tonight (Wednesday) so I'm gonna take a little drive out to somewhere a bit darker and try and spot a few. Any good places in and around Merseyside? I'm happy to drive out a bit further to somewhere in the North West if need be.
Top of Billinge Hill?

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1428 on: August 12, 2015, 09:42:16 am »
It was a genuine question (which may show my ignorance). Perseus is visible at the NE at the time of my flight, and I know I'm flying in the exact opposite direction, but maybe I can see some passing by in the direction of the flight (as long as they don't hit ;) )

Ah, I stand corrected!  ;D

Incidentally, just referring back to the conversation earlier about acceleration, here's a chart that makes for interesting viewing. :)

Bear in mind that Voyager 1's current speed is something like 17 km per second but it is not accelerating, which is why it is listed as zero G acceleration.  As a matter of fact I believe it is slowing down...!

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1429 on: August 13, 2015, 01:26:46 am »
Top of Billinge Hill?

Took you up on this suggestion. Just got back, was there for about 40 minutes and saw about 20. A few really bright ones with amazing trails. It was a bit more cloudy that the meteorologists suggested, but there was enough clear sky to spot a few.


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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1430 on: August 13, 2015, 08:23:00 pm »
Took you up on this suggestion. Just got back, was there for about 40 minutes and saw about 20. A few really bright ones with amazing trails. It was a bit more cloudy that the meteorologists suggested, but there was enough clear sky to spot a few.
Great to hear that. It is literally five minutes away for me, and we often use it as a 'dark sky' viewpoint.

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1431 on: August 19, 2015, 10:39:21 pm »
Have you signed up for a trip to Mars on the InSight mission? Hurry up, the seats are filling out fast:
http://mars.nasa.gov/participate/send-your-name/insight/

This is a cool link for especially for kids. Fill out your manes, and it issues a boarding pass with pictures and everything. And about 300 million miles frequent flyer credit! Don't forget to snare it with friends!
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1432 on: September 11, 2015, 08:45:19 am »
I see today that Elon Musk has said nuking Mars may warm it up and make it habitable?  Considering he owns a rocket company - you know, for space - I think I'm just going to settle for this:
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1433 on: September 11, 2015, 11:57:55 am »
In Pluto-related news, New Horizons has resumed transmission of images.  This one is particularly striking: Pluto's atmosphere proved sufficient to generate a "Twilight Haze" that faintly illuminated a dark, pre-dawn area of Pluto sufficiently for the probe to image.  The brightness enhancement reveals the otherwise dark terrain.

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Offline Mr Mingebag Squid

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1434 on: September 11, 2015, 12:27:18 pm »
I happened to stumble across a post on Reddit last night discussing the elusive "Planet X". Was quite interesting and how exciting would it be in our lifetime to discover a new planet :)

I'll try and find the article and post (unless someone else has it?)

Found ... http://www.techinsider.io/planet-x-biden-hiding-beyond-pluto-evidence-2015-9
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1435 on: September 16, 2015, 04:43:57 am »
Enceladus may well have a global ocean under its ice crust. Didn't Cassini's readings already suggest that it may be a salt ocean?

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=4718

Sod planet X, I wouldn't mind seeing, within my lifetime, us Europeans and the Americans working on figuring out what is going on with stuff we definitely know exists :D


« Last Edit: September 16, 2015, 04:56:33 am by Zeb »
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Online Red Beret

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1436 on: September 18, 2015, 08:14:17 am »
Pluto.

Whoa.

Just Whoa.



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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1437 on: September 18, 2015, 08:28:58 am »
WOW!
Cruyff: "Victory is not enough, there also needs to be beautiful football."

Offline Mr Mingebag Squid

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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1438 on: September 18, 2015, 09:09:53 am »
That second picture is immense. Wow.
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Re: Space exploration thread
« Reply #1439 on: September 18, 2015, 09:11:23 am »
And those are JPEG compressed for public release.  The New Horizons' team has access to much better quality images.

The second image is a close up of the region roughly centre top in the first.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2015, 09:14:45 am by Red Beret »
I don't always visit Lobster Pot.  But when I do. I sit.

Popcorn's Art