Topic: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form

[carling]

Find it weird how Torres's/Gerrard's names keep getting mentioned as reasons why Lucas hasn't done so bad.

Torres has got 2 goals in 3 prem games despite having utter dross service and having been kicked from pillar to post, and he will keep getting these amount of goals for us.  Then there's Gerrard who has 1 goal and 2 assists from the opening 3 games, and don't get me wrong he may be Stevie G but it still can't be easy for him either having been used to receiving the sort of passes in space that he got from Alonso.

We know these two will keep on scoring/creating goals no matter how badly anyone else plays, or how badly they play themselves even.  They will have off games they are only human but if they both stay fit they will do as much towards Liverpool winning the prem as any other player in the league will for their teams, to start looking at these two for other players' shortcomings is laughable.

I agree a lot of the criticism on Lucas is harsh but some of the arguments the other way are just as baffling at times.

[Chivasino]

Football is more important than having kids. There should be a strict ban on all players having kids until we win the league then I say let the sperm fly

Jeez.....

[Twelfth Man]

The boy lacks vision and long ball passing ability, apart from that he can do most things adequately.

[Twelfth Man]

Football is more important than having kids. There should be a strict ban on all players having kids until we win the league then I say let the sperm fly

genius...lmao!!!

[halle2001]

Don't think Lucas is close to being our biggest problem, as many others he did not have a great game against Villa. The guy is a huge talent and we should count our self lucky to have him, it may be a bit too early for him to be the cornerstone of the midfield but i am sure he will in time be a great Liverpool player.

Many people slates the likes of Voronin and Babel for not being good enough, I must be missing something, how was it their fault we conceded 3 goals at home. Scoring only one goal against a strong Villa side is not bad, Chelsea struggled to break down Hull at home in the first game but came off with a win thanks to a lucky late goal but more importantly consistent defending.
Our problem lies in defence especially defending set-pieces this was apparent last season, remember the Chelsea CL game, we scored the most goals in the league but conceded too many.

I think Rafa was after a commending CB this summer but was held back and had to settle for the Greek guy, I think his thinking was to not bring in a 4th choice defender but a first choice one but the owners cut him short. Personally I would have loved to see Skrtel partner someone like Hangeland in defence someone who is a threat at set pieces as great defensively.

Also I think Gerrard and Torres deserves a little stick, they get so much praise when we play well that it is right in its order. These two player demands the ball a lot and rightly so but they need to start sharing the responsibility with the other team-mates.  Maybe this two man team thing, that media loves to quote, is getting at their head.

 

[kkhaku]

Sorry totally disagree.

Its funny how our 2 main players in Gerrard and Torres are getting the blame for a poor start but yet alone Kuyt has been shocking so far as well.

So lets get this right our 3 best players from last season in Kuyt, Gerrard and Torres has all been poor and all have one thing in common! They all play in front of Lucas and Mash.

The bottom line is if Lucas cant supply, cant create then its going to have a serious negative impact on Kuyt, Gerrard and Torres - Thats a fact.

Yes by their stands maybe they should be doing more but again lets face it these 3 are the biggest workers in our side and they want the ball.

Lucas is a limited player, an average player at best. Him in the side isnt doing us any favours. We need to get the best of Torres, Gerrard and Kuyt and if that means dropping Lucas than so be it.

Any fan that thinks Lucas control, boss, create, switch play, be box to box seriously needs to wake up. Watch the lad, just watch him and you will see what a limited CM he is. Dont know if he is just following Rafa's orders but I cant see why he wouldnt want Lucas to be box to box when he has just splashed out on a AM player and wanted a box to box plaer last season.

If you want a team full of Lucas then so be it but dont complain when we're mid table.

Amazing. Sorry mate but that is about as ignorant of a post as I've seen this thread, and there's a lot of them. In fact it wound me up quite a bit, so I actually watched the first half of the Villa match again just to make sure I wasn't the one sprouting shite.

Now first of all get rid of this notion or expectation you have for Lucas to be some sort of creative master class midfielder. He is a player who will play the short pass, but the right one - which will open up space for an incisive attack. He'll often draw 2 opposition players to him and open up a lot of space for Gerrard, Yossi and Kuyt to run into. He did this at least ten times just in the first half of the Villa match...and there were probably another 10 occasions where he played a lateral pass that opened up the same space and lead to an attack. He gave the ball away three times the whole half.

That's right, we launched about twenty attacks in that first half that were looking quite positive. Of those attacks, Gerrard gave away the ball before getting to the final 3rd FIVE times. He also missed one sitter, and rushed a shot from the edge of the 18 when he had lots of time and many options. That's just Gerrard. Yossi gave it away just as much, twice when actually in the final 3rd and also missed 2 clear chances. Torres lost the ball on the edge of the 18 countless times. Same thing with Kuyt. Carra attempted a really stupid pass into the final 3rd at pace which got cut off and lead to Lucas fouling Petrov and scoring the own goal. Torres tried a fancy flick in his own half that directly lead to the corner which Villa scored (Carra's mistake) their second goal. Guess what? Both those attacks were set up by Lucas.

You really expect me to believe our senior players were poor because Lucas isn't creating enough for them? Open your eyes mate. He was involved in just about every attack we built up in that first half, and each time the ball was given away by our top 3. Both in the final 3rd and in the build up to it. We also had a couple of good set pieces and a few corners in that half which we didn't take advantage of.

One thing I will give you is that he doesn't get into the area enough. Only saw him ghost in two or three times, although he does spend a lot of time right on the edge of the 18. However when we play at a high tempo like we did in that match, its tough to set up the attack and also get into the area to get on the end of it. Especially if you're wary of the opposition's counter.

Watch the match again mate, because honestly, you could not be more wrong.

[Uhoh AureliOs]

Great post KKhaku - there's been countless stats and other evidence that has been said to the likes of these posters but in the end it comes down to them not being open-minded enough to see past preconceived prejudice - I fear it's falling on deaf ears.

[myrlas]

That's what is best about the Kuyt/Johnson partnership though.  Johnson providing the width with Kuyt constantly creating space for him/getting into the box.  Easily sustainable except for against the very best teams!

Kuyt got on the end of enough last season with Arby down the right, I expect even more with a presence like Johnson there.

So you blame Kuyt's nightmare first touch on Lucas then? Lucas shouldn't pass to players marked, you say?

Lots of forward option agains the bus Villa parked then?

[realtowz]

Great post KKhaku - there's been countless stats and other evidence that has been said to the likes of these posters but in the end it comes down to them not being open-minded enough to see past preconceived prejudice - I fear it's falling on deaf ears.

precicely. Some "fans" around here just start slating lucas at his first mistake. If it was me, i dont think how i'd perform knowing that my every movement is judged by most of the fans...

[koolkamal]

Amazing. Sorry mate but that is about as ignorant of a post as I've seen this thread, and there's a lot of them. In fact it wound me up quite a bit, so I actually watched the first half of the Villa match again just to make sure I wasn't the one sprouting shite.

Now first of all get rid of this notion or expectation you have for Lucas to be some sort of creative master class midfielder. He is a player who will play the short pass, but the right one - which will open up space for an incisive attack. He'll often draw 2 opposition players to him and open up a lot of space for Gerrard, Yossi and Kuyt to run into. He did this at least ten times just in the first half of the Villa match...and there were probably another 10 occasions where he played a lateral pass that opened up the same space and lead to an attack. He gave the ball away three times the whole half.

That's right, we launched about twenty attacks in that first half that were looking quite positive. Of those attacks, Gerrard gave away the ball before getting to the final 3rd FIVE times. He also missed one sitter, and rushed a shot from the edge of the 18 when he had lots of time and many options. That's just Gerrard. Yossi gave it away just as much, twice when actually in the final 3rd and also missed 2 clear chances. Torres lost the ball on the edge of the 18 countless times. Same thing with Kuyt. Carra attempted a really stupid pass into the final 3rd at pace which got cut off and lead to Lucas fouling Petrov and scoring the own goal. Torres tried a fancy flick in his own half that directly lead to the corner which Villa scored (Carra's mistake) their second goal. Guess what? Both those attacks were set up by Lucas.

You really expect me to believe our senior players were poor because Lucas isn't creating enough for them? Open your eyes mate. He was involved in just about every attack we built up in that first half, and each time the ball was given away by our top 3. Both in the final 3rd and in the build up to it. We also had a couple of good set pieces and a few corners in that half which we didn't take advantage of.

One thing I will give you is that he doesn't get into the area enough. Only saw him ghost in two or three times, although he does spend a lot of time right on the edge of the 18. However when we play at a high tempo like we did in that match, its tough to set up the attack and also get into the area to get on the end of it. Especially if you're wary of the opposition's counter.

Watch the match again mate, because honestly, you could not be more wrong.

Finally a sensible post. Seems like people are just waiting to get at Lucas for any mistake he may make. One misplaced pass on they're on his back about how useless he is - it's like they not even watching the match rather then just watching Lucas make a mistake.

[MaschHead]

Finally a sensible post. Seems like people are just waiting to get at Lucas for any mistake he may make. One misplaced pass on they're on his back about how useless he is - it's like they not even watching the match rather then just watching Lucas make a mistake.

Pretty much seems like that yes, I've given up on this forum really. Anything related to the first team is going off-topic within a few posts with people making references to Voronin, Lucas, Degen, Dossena or who else is the scapegoat at that moment.  Best supporters in the world? Not if you read this forum.

[danwms]

I LIKE LUCAS

[carling]

So you blame Kuyt's nightmare first touch on Lucas then? Lucas shouldn't pass to players marked, you say?

Lots of forward option agains the bus Villa parked then?

Ay?

Have you quoted the wrong post?

If not could you let me know what the fuck you are on about?

[Hank Scorpio]

Amazing. Sorry mate but that is about as ignorant of a post as I've seen this thread, and there's a lot of them. In fact it wound me up quite a bit, so I actually watched the first half of the Villa match again just to make sure I wasn't the one sprouting shite.

Now first of all get rid of this notion or expectation you have for Lucas to be some sort of creative master class midfielder. He is a player who will play the short pass, but the right one - which will open up space for an incisive attack. He'll often draw 2 opposition players to him and open up a lot of space for Gerrard, Yossi and Kuyt to run into. He did this at least ten times just in the first half of the Villa match...and there were probably another 10 occasions where he played a lateral pass that opened up the same space and lead to an attack. He gave the ball away three times the whole half.

That's right, we launched about twenty attacks in that first half that were looking quite positive. Of those attacks, Gerrard gave away the ball before getting to the final 3rd FIVE times. He also missed one sitter, and rushed a shot from the edge of the 18 when he had lots of time and many options. That's just Gerrard. Yossi gave it away just as much, twice when actually in the final 3rd and also missed 2 clear chances. Torres lost the ball on the edge of the 18 countless times. Same thing with Kuyt. Carra attempted a really stupid pass into the final 3rd at pace which got cut off and lead to Lucas fouling Petrov and scoring the own goal. Torres tried a fancy flick in his own half that directly lead to the corner which Villa scored (Carra's mistake) their second goal. Guess what? Both those attacks were set up by Lucas.

You really expect me to believe our senior players were poor because Lucas isn't creating enough for them? Open your eyes mate. He was involved in just about every attack we built up in that first half, and each time the ball was given away by our top 3. Both in the final 3rd and in the build up to it. We also had a couple of good set pieces and a few corners in that half which we didn't take advantage of.

One thing I will give you is that he doesn't get into the area enough. Only saw him ghost in two or three times, although he does spend a lot of time right on the edge of the 18. However when we play at a high tempo like we did in that match, its tough to set up the attack and also get into the area to get on the end of it. Especially if you're wary of the opposition's counter.

Watch the match again mate, because honestly, you could not be more wrong.

Good post, mate.  You are completely right and good observation about the way Lucas creates.

My main worry for Lucas is the way he lets everything affect him greatly.  You could physically see he was carrying that burden of the OG with him.

He is going to have to get a grip mentally and let his feet do the talking because there is a great player in there.  It would help if some of the senior players offered him backing but in this world you cannot rely on the support of others.

I seriously have my doubts about whether he will make it here.

[The Nihilists]

That's right, we launched about twenty attacks in that first half that were looking quite positive. Of those attacks, Gerrard gave away the ball before getting to the final 3rd FIVE times. He also missed one sitter, and rushed a shot from the edge of the 18 when he had lots of time and many options. That's just Gerrard. Yossi gave it away just as much, twice when actually in the final 3rd and also missed 2 clear chances. Torres lost the ball on the edge of the 18 countless times. Same thing with Kuyt. Carra attempted a really stupid pass into the final 3rd at pace which got cut off and lead to Lucas fouling Petrov and scoring the own goal. Torres tried a fancy flick in his own half that directly lead to the corner which Villa scored (Carra's mistake) their second goal. Guess what? Both those attacks were set up by Lucas.

Well said. The major players are great players, and do it time and again for us. However, when they have an off night, it should be called, and not blamed on players like Lucas for the sake of it.

What I don't get, though, is people slagging Kuyt to praise Lucas or vice versa, with all the different players.

[koolkamal]

Good post, mate.  You are completely right and good observation about the way Lucas creates.

My main worry for Lucas is the way he lets everything affect him greatly.  You could physically see he was carrying that burden of the OG with him.

He is going to have to get a grip mentally and let his feet do the talking because there is a great player in there.  It would help if some of the senior players offered him backing but in this world you cannot rely on the support of others.

I seriously have my doubts about whether he will make it here.

I have a really good feeling that he's going to be a star - Just a gut feeling. He does let things affect him but at the same time it doesn't help matters when you don't even have the support of your own fans and everywhere media, forums you have thousands of 'blind' people saying you're not good enough. It's enough to put a damper on anyone's spirits.

Personally I think we as fans need to forget the slagging and get on with our job of 'supporting' the player. How much of a boost would it have been for him after the own goal (which wasn't his fault) if the fans actually showed support for him.

[lukas]

The bottom line is if Lucas cant supply, cant create then its going to have a serious negative impact on Kuyt, Gerrard and Torres - Thats a fact.

Yes by their stands maybe they should be doing more but again lets face it these 3 are the biggest workers in our side and they want the ball.

Lucas is a limited player, an average player at best. Him in the side isnt doing us any favours. We need to get the best of Torres, Gerrard and Kuyt and if that means dropping Lucas than so be it.

First off im in no way admitting Lucas is a world beater or anything but i do believe he is a good player and still has potential to improve.

If you look at the game against villa you must admit that our movement was incredibly poor there were times when Lucas and Masch were bringing the ball forward and there were just no options.

In the stoke game our movement was definately better making it easier for our centre mids to distribute the ball, therefore i argue Lucas is capable of supplying, yeah he is no Alonso but hes gone and as a team we must compensate for this.

Also with Kuyt yeah against villa he was poor but throughout the game he more than any of our front 4 came a little deeper looking for the ball.

Its fairly obvious that when Aquilani comes back he will come in for Lucas but for the time being he will play with Masch, i cant see him moving Gerrard back.

[sinnermichael]

[realtowz]

had Torres done that, everyone would be going mental...


had lucas not make it to do the marseille roulete, everyone would slate him...

best fans in the world... yeah right...

[danwms]

class

[hesbighesred]

What the gif doesn't show is that Lucas carries on the run, gets into a very promising position and attempts a 1-2 with Kuyt to drive on into/to the edge of the box with pace and momentum. Lucas gives it, Kuyt falls over trying to give it back - though to Kuyt's credit, at least he tried to give it back.

[SadRed]

I think its simple - If the team does well, Lucas does well; if the team plays shite, he plays shite.

[Fordy]

Amazing. Sorry mate but that is about as ignorant of a post as I've seen this thread, and there's a lot of them. In fact it wound me up quite a bit, so I actually watched the first half of the Villa match again just to make sure I wasn't the one sprouting shite.

Now first of all get rid of this notion or expectation you have for Lucas to be some sort of creative master class midfielder. He is a player who will play the short pass, but the right one - which will open up space for an incisive attack. He'll often draw 2 opposition players to him and open up a lot of space for Gerrard, Yossi and Kuyt to run into. He did this at least ten times just in the first half of the Villa match...and there were probably another 10 occasions where he played a lateral pass that opened up the same space and lead to an attack. He gave the ball away three times the whole half.

That's right, we launched about twenty attacks in that first half that were looking quite positive. Of those attacks, Gerrard gave away the ball before getting to the final 3rd FIVE times. He also missed one sitter, and rushed a shot from the edge of the 18 when he had lots of time and many options. That's just Gerrard. Yossi gave it away just as much, twice when actually in the final 3rd and also missed 2 clear chances. Torres lost the ball on the edge of the 18 countless times. Same thing with Kuyt. Carra attempted a really stupid pass into the final 3rd at pace which got cut off and lead to Lucas fouling Petrov and scoring the own goal. Torres tried a fancy flick in his own half that directly lead to the corner which Villa scored (Carra's mistake) their second goal. Guess what? Both those attacks were set up by Lucas.

You really expect me to believe our senior players were poor because Lucas isn't creating enough for them? Open your eyes mate. He was involved in just about every attack we built up in that first half, and each time the ball was given away by our top 3. Both in the final 3rd and in the build up to it. We also had a couple of good set pieces and a few corners in that half which we didn't take advantage of.

One thing I will give you is that he doesn't get into the area enough. Only saw him ghost in two or three times, although he does spend a lot of time right on the edge of the 18. However when we play at a high tempo like we did in that match, its tough to set up the attack and also get into the area to get on the end of it. Especially if you're wary of the opposition's counter.

Watch the match again mate, because honestly, you could not be more wrong.

Ok. First of all I was at the match and I tend to watch Lucas closely. Not because I can come on here and slate him but to see if he is improving at what he really brings to the table.

The Villa match - For me Villa had the tactics stop on. The 1st 15-20mins Liverpool came at them. This was bound to happen. Villa got men behind the ball and said to us come and break us down if you can. We was mega unlucky not to score.

However after 20mins instead of Villa putting 10 men behind the ball they opened up a little and really out won us in the tactics deptment. They had Young and Milner stopping Johnson and Insua to be able to bomb forward and with Lucas they had Sidwell standing off him. Why? cause he is LIMITED. He cant unlock defences often, he can spread play. Lucas is easy to read. He will try to pass the ball square or to Gerrard. As soon as the ball goes to either Gerrard, Torres or Kuyt they were 2 to 3 players round them.

If you watch the FULL game again and not the bits when we clearly were on top you will realise I am right.

Also you will find that when Lucas scored the own goal his head just dropped and it was game over for him. In fact when his number was up. Lucas was already at the bench ready to come off. This shows they is no fight about the lad. Not saying he has to do a Keane and look round for 20mins and go what me.

As someone has already stated Lucas performance tends go with the rest of team. If we're good then he is ok, if we're shit he is shit. So in the 1st 20mins it doesnt shock me he was ok, after that it doesnt shock me he was Mr average. However he plays in CM and he cant afford to go with the win. He has to control and boss a game.

Thought your reply was good but if you think Lucas is going to be a midfield great for us then your highly mistaken in my eyes.

Said all what is need to be said about Lucas for now. Enjoy the thread.

[Hightown Phil]

Also you will find that when Lucas scored the own goal his head just dropped and it was game over for him.

Errr

[the_prodigal_s0n]

I think its simple - If the team does well, Lucas does well; if the team plays shite, he plays shite.

That seems true and you could derive from that that Lucas will never be the type of player that steps up when we need a leader or be a key component of a title winning side.

However, there's more to it than that. Instead of just stating observations like this we need to analyse and calculate why that might be the case, and for me the reason is obvious. Like others have said earlier in the thread, there was no movement in front of Lucas. If that's the case then it doesn't matter whether you're Andrea Pirlo or Robbie Savage, you're not going to be effective and you're not going to stand out when attempting passes.

Even Xabi Alonso was 'culpable' of this. For much of his two mediocre (ahem) seasons he was willing the team on by attempting passes to good positions in space, but because of the lack of movement and ideas from the forward players, they failed and Xabi was labelled as being poor. A pass can only be as good as the player on the end of it.

This is, in my opinion, part of the reason why Rafa wanted to sell Xabi last summer. As good as he was, Xabi made our play too predictable at times. He passed on to players in better positions but never followed up and supported them in attack. He didn't attempt to dribble with the ball either. Due to that, his ability was nullified if the players in front of him weren't performing well. With a player like Aquilani, or potentially Lucas, they might not be as good at passing, but they can still do what Xabi does to a limited standard. However, on top of that, they provide further options in being able to move forward and support the attack, and therefore creating more space for others, or by carrying the ball forward towards the box. Xabi either couldn't or wasn't trusted by Rafa to do so.

I think that's why Rafa has faith in Lucas, and it also explains why Lucas isn't standing out. He did attempt forward passes to players against Villa but very few passes are going to be successful unless our players are constantly moving and attempting to confuse opposition defenders. Added to that, whenever Lucas did attempt to move forward the ball was never played back to him, as HBHR points out. Until our own players have a little more faith in Lucas, and until they help him by being less static, he's never going to succeed. And that's not his fault.

[Oh Yes BisCAN]

A little more support for the 'less established' players needs to be shown! Players like Lucas and, dare I say it Babel play on confidence, however they receive little or no support from us fans.

Against Stoke on Wednesday and Real Madrid last season, every pass, 2 yards or 20, header, tackle made, etc of Ayala or Spearing was applauded/cheered by the crowd to show their support of a 'young' player. However, when Lucas does anything of equally minor importance during the game there is nothing, yet as soon as he so much as mis-controls a pass you can hear the sighs inside Anfield almost as loud as celebrating a goal.

I believe Lucas is a more than capable midfielder, but must dread going out into a stadium where he surely fears making a mistake before concentrating fully on his game!

The added problem now is that every central midfielder will be constantly compared to Alonso! Bottom line, there are very few out there as good or better than Xabi! If this is the level they need to reach from day one then good luck Aquilani!!

[Stussy]

Its become one of these lynch-mob type of dynamics, in which the dunces in society take something wafted around as a truth that is apparently self-evident, and latched onto as something to say in the absence of any kind of thought or originality. Its the scapegoating, lynch-mob mentality, which corresponds to duncehood, but is also present in more serious contexts.

Obviously it exists amongst our own, but its also out there in the media, people who don't even follow us closely. For example, there was a manc on here the other day, asking ever so humbly, why we play such an awful player as Lucas.

Never before in the field of human history shall the satisfaction of seeing a player come good in our Red be so great.

We've got your back Lucas lad, give them hell.

[macca888]

No my point is that in football the centre midfield area is the most important area in on the pitch. Games are won or lost due to CM battles. 

Lucas and Mash are not performing to the standards we need and its affecting our attacking play. When we have the ball in that area we're not creating enough.

Enough hoof Carra is back as he wants to try and produce something different and bypass out CM because of the lack of creative skill they have.

Yes it goes without saying that Gerrard, Torres and Kuyt can have off days - Gerrard and Torres have been poor by their standards so far and Kuyt lacks invention but to help them they need the CM pairing to raise their game.

Lucas is standing way to close to Mash, he is wanting the ball but he does nothing with it. He isnt Alonso who can spread the play etc he is Lucas and he really needs to be his own man and be something bloody different as he is a sorry small pitch on Alonso.

OK then Fordy, I'll take you up on it. So nearly every draw we had last season and EVERY loss had Alonso in the team. That was all Xabi's fault right?

[carling]

Thanks for posting I wanted to see this again. 

[scatman]

In Lucas' performances, has he performed better at home or away?

[lukas]

In Lucas' performances, has he performed better at home or away?

I think away, which tells you something.

[Fordy]

OK then Fordy, I'll take you up on it. So nearly every draw we had last season and EVERY loss had Alonso in the team. That was all Xabi's fault right?

Macca I wanted to leave this thread. 

No it was mainly Keane's fault for missing sitters.   

[scatman]

I think away, which tells you something.

I just wanted to see what the general consensus was, in my eyes he's performed better in away games. Off the top of my head his outstanding performances have been in away games - Inter, Newcastle, Scumtown, PSV.

[Beninger]

I like the fact that many people are coming to the aid of Lucas...a lot different than last year.  Like I've said before, I watch him closely...even scrutinize him.  He has been doing very well every time I've seen him.  He gets the ball to the front 4 consistently.  After that it's their job.  After all that's what Xabi did, only he did it from 50 yards.  If we play short passes, it's not as glamorous, but it does the exact same thing.  Villa sat back, and once again we had problems dealing with that.  Xabi sure as hell didn't fix that problem last year. 

Lucas is a GOOD player.

[Beninger]

Errr

Thanks for that.  RIGHT after the OG.  Not many people mentioned that turn.  Anyone remember complaining about Xabi doing those same things and not getting the praise that Kaka gets for it?

[deadlybuzz]

Lovely, the fact he over hit it first and still managed to continue on with possession.

[mooks]

Ok. First of all I was at the match and I tend to watch Lucas closely. Not because I can come on here and slate him but to see if he is improving at what he really brings to the table.

The Villa match - For me Villa had the tactics stop on. The 1st 15-20mins Liverpool came at them. This was bound to happen. Villa got men behind the ball and said to us come and break us down if you can. We was mega unlucky not to score.

However after 20mins instead of Villa putting 10 men behind the ball they opened up a little and really out won us in the tactics deptment. They had Young and Milner stopping Johnson and Insua to be able to bomb forward and with Lucas they had Sidwell standing off him. Why? cause he is LIMITED. He cant unlock defences often, he can spread play. Lucas is easy to read. He will try to pass the ball square or to Gerrard. As soon as the ball goes to either Gerrard, Torres or Kuyt they were 2 to 3 players round them.

If you watch the FULL game again and not the bits when we clearly were on top you will realise I am right.

Also you will find that when Lucas scored the own goal his head just dropped and it was game over for him. In fact when his number was up. Lucas was already at the bench ready to come off. This shows they is no fight about the lad. Not saying he has to do a Keane and look round for 20mins and go what me.

As someone has already stated Lucas performance tends go with the rest of team. If we're good then he is ok, if we're shit he is shit. So in the 1st 20mins it doesnt shock me he was ok, after that it doesnt shock me he was Mr average. However he plays in CM and he cant afford to go with the win. He has to control and boss a game.

Thought your reply was good but if you think Lucas is going to be a midfield great for us then your highly mistaken in my eyes.

Said all what is need to be said about Lucas for now. Enjoy the thread.

Good grief.  You respond to kkhaku's detaiiled and objective post with ten lines of subjective nonsense?

Get a grip, lad.

[Bangers N Masch]

Amazing. Sorry mate but that is about as ignorant of a post as I've seen this thread, and there's a lot of them. In fact it wound me up quite a bit, so I actually watched the first half of the Villa match again just to make sure I wasn't the one sprouting shite.

Now first of all get rid of this notion or expectation you have for Lucas to be some sort of creative master class midfielder. He is a player who will play the short pass, but the right one - which will open up space for an incisive attack. He'll often draw 2 opposition players to him and open up a lot of space for Gerrard, Yossi and Kuyt to run into. He did this at least ten times just in the first half of the Villa match...and there were probably another 10 occasions where he played a lateral pass that opened up the same space and lead to an attack. He gave the ball away three times the whole half.

That's right, we launched about twenty attacks in that first half that were looking quite positive. Of those attacks, Gerrard gave away the ball before getting to the final 3rd FIVE times. He also missed one sitter, and rushed a shot from the edge of the 18 when he had lots of time and many options. That's just Gerrard. Yossi gave it away just as much, twice when actually in the final 3rd and also missed 2 clear chances. Torres lost the ball on the edge of the 18 countless times. Same thing with Kuyt. Carra attempted a really stupid pass into the final 3rd at pace which got cut off and lead to Lucas fouling Petrov and scoring the own goal. Torres tried a fancy flick in his own half that directly lead to the corner which Villa scored (Carra's mistake) their second goal. Guess what? Both those attacks were set up by Lucas.

You really expect me to believe our senior players were poor because Lucas isn't creating enough for them? Open your eyes mate. He was involved in just about every attack we built up in that first half, and each time the ball was given away by our top 3. Both in the final 3rd and in the build up to it. We also had a couple of good set pieces and a few corners in that half which we didn't take advantage of.

One thing I will give you is that he doesn't get into the area enough. Only saw him ghost in two or three times, although he does spend a lot of time right on the edge of the 18. However when we play at a high tempo like we did in that match, its tough to set up the attack and also get into the area to get on the end of it. Especially if you're wary of the opposition's counter.

Watch the match again mate, because honestly, you could not be more wrong.

Brilliant post mate. Its exactly what I've been saying to brain-dead c*nts who keep bringing out the old "Lucas is shit" phrase without explaining why other than because all the pundits say he is, but worded even better.

Lucas needs movement ahead of him a lot of the time. In the first 20 minutes, he had that, and he helped to create chances. But guess what? Our front 4 didn't take them. Against Stoke they did and Lucas all of a sudden looked a much better player. Its no fucking coincidence.

This 'killer pass' business is infuriating as well. How often did Alonso play a killer pass? Rarely. I'd go as far to say as Lucas has that in his locker more than Xabi does. the problem is he can't play an easy-on-the-eye 50 yard pin-point pass than Alonso and therefore his passing is seen as 'average'. Its not. It is simple but effective.

[Tonyh]

You expect the Lucas bashing from the Press but not your own fans. I certainly didn't think he was the problem on Monday, admitted he wasn't Pele but there were worse culprits.

The primary problem as so often is the case was no width around a team that parked the bus once they were in front. Dirk wasn't good which prevented Johnson getting on the overlap, I also think Johnson was rightly concerned about Ashely Young.

We always seemed to be attempting to play our way through the penalty spot, there was no attacking width or imagination. With no specialist header of the ball in the team we also dont have the hgh cross option.

But saying all of that, some of the basic control, passing and defense issues were shocking. Every team that plays us this season will have tall attackers and defenders where they can!

[liverpoolfcmike]

I think its simple - If the team does well, Lucas does well; if the team plays shite, he plays shite.

Simple? More like simple-minded.