Author Topic: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form  (Read 196457 times)

Offline BIGdavalad

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1760 on: August 27, 2009, 04:01:28 pm »
Dont know. Look to an experience player. 29-32 years old.

Older players are going to cost more and expect more in wages. They're a short term option so we end up changing them every two or three years instead of every five or eight. They haven't been at the club during their more formative years (I'd expect it would be easier to mould a 20 or 21 years old than a 29 or 30 year old) so they're not in tune with Rafa's tactics, there's no more guarantee of them doing well than a young player (Morientes, Keane?) and there's almost no chance of ever making anything like your money back.

Aside from that, how will Lucas ever be ready to run a midfield if he never gets to do it? Starting against the likes of Crewe and Wycombe in the cups or in friendlies isn't adequate preperation for the 'real thing' in the league.
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Offline bullfrog

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1761 on: August 27, 2009, 04:18:31 pm »
re-watching the game lucas is far from to blame for the other nights poor performance. the number of times our more senior players deliver poor passes or are hussled off of the ball is almost embarassing. i expect a lot better from the likes of torres, gerrard, kuyt and yossi but they were all guilty of playing well beneath their respective levels. even reinas petulence resulted in a yellow card, a 2 point deduction from my fantasy football team and additional time added on to extra time which saw a second villa goal.

apart from the own goal which was just a bit of bad luck i think lucas had a reasonably good game. drifted into attacking positions with a good level of frequency only to see the players around him deliver unsuccessful crosses or poor shots.

rafas right imo, these senior players need to step up.

Offline Bjornar

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1762 on: August 27, 2009, 05:10:38 pm »
Lucus may come good at 26-27 years old but he is at Liverpool FC now and we cant wait another 4 years for a player to produce.

I have said for a long time that we lack depth in the CM area and maybe JL is right that we shouldnt put a 22 in a position that he has to run the show. Hence the reason some are calling for Gerrard to move back in to CM until the new signing is fit.

Think the so called pro Lucas fans are missing the point and the point is Lucas is now a vital player in the 1st team and he has to produce. We cant afford a player lacking in confinence playing in CM.

Think this is what most of those criticising Lucas after the Spurs and Villa games have been getting at, with a few exceptions people aren't saying he's a bad player full stop. Based on this thread alone at least, I think the 'stop scapegoating Lucas'-posters are to some degree fighting strawmen.

I'd point out that he's only 22 but it'd be lost on some of the critics, and indeed some of the sycophants who have spent the summer insisting he was ready to boss the midfield on a weekly basis for a team that's comfortable sitting at Europe's top table.

I'm not sure where this idea that at 22 he should be ready to run the midfield for a club of Liverpool's stature has come from. It'd be a big ask for him if he'd just stepped off the plane from Real Madrid and was asked to do that, but it's a ridiculous ask of a kid who's been making the general's coffee for the past two seasons to now step into his boots and lead the troops to war.

Asking questions about Lucas's performances so far doesn't necessarily mean you expected him to be Alonso version 2 this season.

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1763 on: August 27, 2009, 05:24:03 pm »
re-watching the game lucas is far from to blame for the other nights poor performance. the number of times our more senior players deliver poor passes or are hussled off of the ball is almost embarassing. i expect a lot better from the likes of torres, gerrard, kuyt and yossi but they were all guilty of playing well beneath their respective levels. even reinas petulence resulted in a yellow card, a 2 point deduction from my fantasy football team and additional time added on to extra time which saw a second villa goal.

apart from the own goal which was just a bit of bad luck i think lucas had a reasonably good game. drifted into attacking positions with a good level of frequency only to see the players around him deliver unsuccessful crosses or poor shots.

rafas right imo, these senior players need to step up.

Dead right, and I find it embarassing that so called knowledgable fans see fit to pin the blame on a player that's actually done better than most by virtue of the fact that he's young, replacing a favourite. Its pathetic. If Gerrard had shown anything special in the two games where he did drop deep then maybe, just maybe, there might be case but he didn't. In fact he did the exact opposite giving the ball away repeatedly against Spurs and doing feck all against Villa bar giving away a peno. Its just ridiculous.

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1764 on: August 28, 2009, 04:00:06 pm »
thats why i find that other gerrard thread, absolutely stupid, some fans need to be shot
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Offline afour

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1765 on: August 28, 2009, 04:25:19 pm »
Lucas wont be dropped for gerrard, nor should he be. So far this season i think he's done fine, when Gerrard/ Torres and pretty much everyone else is playing shit it's easy to just say "drop lucas he's had his chance". Lucas hasn't been making the whole team play badly, we're three games in give him a chance.

Offline redprodigal

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1766 on: August 28, 2009, 04:29:30 pm »
Lucas wont be dropped for gerrard, nor should he be. So far this season i think he's done fine, when Gerrard/ Torres and pretty much everyone else is playing shit it's easy to just say "drop lucas he's had his chance". Lucas hasn't been making the whole team play badly, we're three games in give him a chance.

Can't argue with that.

Offline Juan Loco

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1767 on: August 28, 2009, 04:43:47 pm »
Fantastic post Juan.

I would possibly only disagree with some of the Mascherano comments.

He has become a world class player through having a tremendous engine, being a brilliant tackler, retaining possession well and being able to spread the play, not to mention his passion.  He has not built his reputation and become Argentina's captain on being a playmaker, or being the focal point of a midfield.  He has always had players for club and country alongside him who have been the inventive passers, for me him and Alonso were the perfect match and the best central midfield pairing around.

I think both him and Lucas could be ideal foils for a midfielder with a bigger passing range, albeit in different ways.  I fully expect Masch to be the foil for Aquilani when he is fit, with Lucas coming in when Rafa deems necessary.

I think over the past 5 years we've got so used to seeing Alonso run a midfield the way he does that we sometimes forget there's more than one way to skin a cat. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely adore midfielders like Alonso who could run an entire game without ever leaving the centre circle, but there's other ways to dominate a midfield.

Mascherano may not be as talented as Alonso, but some times presence makes up for talent. If it was purely down to talent the Roy Keane probably wouldn't have been playing at Manchester United. He wasn't a bad footballer, but in terms of ability on it's own he never should have been at that level. He had an aura about him though, which is what Mascherano needs to develop.

He's a better footballer than sometimes given credit for. He's not going to make Alonso feel embaressed, but he can ping the ball about when he wants to (played a great ball for Insua against Stoke the other week) and he can also go on those driving runs with the ball (like he did in the build up to Babel's winner against the mancs last year). He just doesn't do it enough. He's quite content to just move the play on to the next bloke and so is Lucas. Mascherano is now at the point in his career where if the play is going sideways he should be able to step forward with the ball and make something happen himself. He's not going to beat five players and curl one in from 20 yards, but he's more than capable of drawing 2 or 3 opponents toward him which will leave someone else in space.

He's coming up to the age now where he should be running midfields, not just being the silent assassin that stops others from doing it. I think he's got the ability to as well. Again, he's not Xabi, but he doesn't need to be. You can change the tempo of a game by just running at a guy with a bit of purpose - Mascherano can do that. He's at the point in his career where it's time to take his game beyond just winning the ball back at playing it simple. That's all that's needed maybe 90% of the time, but occasionally he needs to just step up the tempo of a game and take it on himself to drive the team forward and show a bit of intent.
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Offline BazC

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1768 on: August 28, 2009, 04:49:51 pm »
Agree with all of that Juan. But everytime I think of Mascherano, it all seems a bit futile and pointless to think about what player he'll develop into. It's fucking exasperating actually.

I just hope Barcelona implode by the time it comes to next summer. Somehow.
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Offline Juan Loco

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1769 on: August 28, 2009, 04:51:33 pm »
Agree with all of that Juan. But everytime I think of Mascherano, it all seems a bit futile and pointless to think about what player he'll develop into. It's fucking exasperating actually.

I just hope Barcelona implode by the time it comes to next summer. Somehow.

at least we'll get a couple of players with the £30m odd he'll bring in. God bless our American overlords.
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Offline the_cote_kid

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1770 on: August 29, 2009, 01:47:13 am »
Some nice sensible posting from Bjornar earlier.

Personally, i don't blame Lucas for our poor start to the season.  He has, pretty much, played up to the standard i expect from him; not particularly quick or sharp, not strong at all, very poor in the tackle (if you can't get there don't attempt the tackle?) and pretty basic passing.  Gets forward occasionally as his role dictates but does little when he's there.
I think the most worrying thing was the positive comments after the Spurs and Stoke games, where people seemed to think he'd performed well.  I can only presume that was some sort of reaction to the stick he gets in public.
It's pretty clear we need to either adapt the system since Xabi went or find better personnel than dear old Lucas.

Offline impz

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1771 on: August 29, 2009, 03:05:01 am »
Some nice sensible posting from Bjornar earlier.

Personally, i don't blame Lucas for our poor start to the season.  He has, pretty much, played up to the standard i expect from him; not particularly quick or sharp, not strong at all, very poor in the tackle (if you can't get there don't attempt the tackle?) and pretty basic passing.  Gets forward occasionally as his role dictates but does little when he's there.
I think the most worrying thing was the positive comments after the Spurs and Stoke games, where people seemed to think he'd performed well.  I can only presume that was some sort of reaction to the stick he gets in public.
It's pretty clear we need to either adapt the system since Xabi went or find better personnel than dear old Lucas.

I'm not even sure it's even worth pointing out that you're wrong and why...


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Offline Marko B

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1772 on: August 29, 2009, 04:02:21 am »
Some nice sensible posting from Bjornar earlier.

Personally, i don't blame Lucas for our poor start to the season.  He has, pretty much, played up to the standard i expect from him; not particularly quick or sharp, not strong at all, very poor in the tackle (if you can't get there don't attempt the tackle?) and pretty basic passing.  Gets forward occasionally as his role dictates but does little when he's there.
I think the most worrying thing was the positive comments after the Spurs and Stoke games, where people seemed to think he'd performed well.  I can only presume that was some sort of reaction to the stick he gets in public.
It's pretty clear we need to either adapt the system since Xabi went or find better personnel than dear old Lucas.

What an intelligent and well thought out contribution to this thread that was, thank you for enlightening us all with your facts. You clearly have no idea.
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Offline Bangers N Masch

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1773 on: August 29, 2009, 04:07:43 am »
I think over the past 5 years we've got so used to seeing Alonso run a midfield the way he does that we sometimes forget there's more than one way to skin a cat. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely adore midfielders like Alonso who could run an entire game without ever leaving the centre circle, but there's other ways to dominate a midfield.

Mascherano may not be as talented as Alonso, but some times presence makes up for talent. If it was purely down to talent the Roy Keane probably wouldn't have been playing at Manchester United. He wasn't a bad footballer, but in terms of ability on it's own he never should have been at that level. He had an aura about him though, which is what Mascherano needs to develop.

He's a better footballer than sometimes given credit for. He's not going to make Alonso feel embaressed, but he can ping the ball about when he wants to (played a great ball for Insua against Stoke the other week) and he can also go on those driving runs with the ball (like he did in the build up to Babel's winner against the mancs last year). He just doesn't do it enough. He's quite content to just move the play on to the next bloke and so is Lucas. Mascherano is now at the point in his career where if the play is going sideways he should be able to step forward with the ball and make something happen himself. He's not going to beat five players and curl one in from 20 yards, but he's more than capable of drawing 2 or 3 opponents toward him which will leave someone else in space.

He's coming up to the age now where he should be running midfields, not just being the silent assassin that stops others from doing it. I think he's got the ability to as well. Again, he's not Xabi, but he doesn't need to be. You can change the tempo of a game by just running at a guy with a bit of purpose - Mascherano can do that. He's at the point in his career where it's time to take his game beyond just winning the ball back at playing it simple. That's all that's needed maybe 90% of the time, but occasionally he needs to just step up the tempo of a game and take it on himself to drive the team forward and show a bit of intent.

Completely agree with this actually, loved Mascherano when he first came here - hence the name - and still do, but like you hint at; its time for him to step it up a little bit, because its getting to the stage now where, in some games, you do think he's a bit unnecessary. That's not to say he doesn't contribute enough defensively; sometimes we need a little more going forward, so if he could produce those driving runs or those diagonal passes you speak about more frequently, it'd help us no end.
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Offline Need_a_bevvy

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1774 on: August 29, 2009, 04:09:19 am »
What an intelligent and well thought out contribution to this thread that was, thank you for enlightening us all with your facts. You clearly have no idea.

Bjornar?

Go support Tromsoe or something.
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Offline Marko B

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1775 on: August 29, 2009, 04:28:00 am »
Bjornar?

Go support Tromsoe or something.

I don't think anybody could claim to have any idea what you are saying here.
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Offline Need_a_bevvy

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1776 on: August 29, 2009, 05:49:30 am »
I don't think anybody could claim to have any idea what you are saying here.

Too many bevvies. :-P

No worries.

Off to bed, Bolton tomorrow. :-)

Anyhow I wasn't addressing you.  I was addressing Bjornar.  The bastard :-P

Cheers.
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Offline Marko B

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1777 on: August 29, 2009, 05:52:44 am »
Too many bevvies. :-P

No worries.

Off to bed, Bolton tomorrow. :-)

Anyhow I wasn't addressing you.  I was addressing Bjornar.  The bastard :-P

Cheers.

Haha good form then mate, the night is still young for plenty more bevvos.
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Offline Ultimate Bromance

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1778 on: August 29, 2009, 05:07:40 pm »
Saw him try and drift into the box making late runs alot tonight, which was good, as Gerrard was being completely shut out by Muamba in the first half. Needs to keep being aggressive and get himself in the box as much as he can. Don't need him and Masch both sitting outside doing nothing.
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Offline SalisburyRed

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1779 on: August 29, 2009, 05:08:45 pm »
A foul on Lucas brought about a red card for an opposition player - more evidence he's growing into Alonso's role?

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1780 on: August 29, 2009, 05:10:28 pm »
A foul on Lucas brought about a red card for an opposition player - more evidence he's growing into Alonso's role?
:lmao

Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1781 on: August 29, 2009, 05:17:56 pm »
He did well today. I loved the fact he was moving further up the pitch and getting into the box today. Not a fan of the whinging to the referee when Davis fouled him though. That is the sort of reaction from a young player that could backfire on another day.

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1782 on: August 29, 2009, 05:24:04 pm »
He's come in to step into the shoes of the world's best playmaker. He's doing the basics right, he hardly loses the ball, managed to win it back, and is trying to add a bit more to the role, by getting into the box.

Hope he continues making those runs. I'd think one goal, and his confidence would shoot up.
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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1783 on: August 29, 2009, 05:27:08 pm »
I think gerrard needs to drop a bit deeper to receive the ball. Today that was a little impossible but in the future he needs to add some more drive from midfield.

I lso think that lucas needs to up his tempo. His passing game will be much more effective in this league at a higher tempo, a la fabregas or lampard. He needs to push it and pass it quickly and look for the ball more quickly.
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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1784 on: August 29, 2009, 05:28:20 pm »
Saw him try and drift into the box making late runs alot tonight, which was good, as Gerrard was being completely shut out by Muamba in the first half. Needs to keep being aggressive and get himself in the box as much as he can. Don't need him and Masch both sitting outside doing nothing.

That pass of his to Torres (?) late in the first half was sublime.

Offline Gaz123456

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1785 on: August 29, 2009, 06:17:14 pm »
Good performance again. He might not be to everyones taste but I think he has earnt his place in the team now.

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1786 on: August 29, 2009, 06:21:15 pm »
I love this lad.
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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1787 on: August 29, 2009, 06:21:29 pm »
I think gerrard needs to drop a bit deeper to receive the ball. Today that was a little impossible but in the future he needs to add some more drive from midfield.



Did you watch the game  ???

Gerrard was playing deep for most of the second half, even before Mascherano went off. Did well too.

Lucas was looking good again in my opinion.

They both need to play in front of Mascherano in the box-to-box roles- both need freedom to get forward but at the same time, both need to drop back at times too. It's much better than seeing Gerrard stay forward and Lucas stay back most of the game but joining the attack at times.

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Offline mooks

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1788 on: August 29, 2009, 06:39:13 pm »
Solid game by Mr. Leiva :thumbup

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1789 on: August 29, 2009, 07:02:25 pm »
That pass of his to Torres (?) late in the first half was sublime.
driven through ball ? If so indeed it was, spotted this aswell but wasnt sure if it had been lucas' pass.

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1790 on: August 29, 2009, 07:21:10 pm »
Did you watch the game  ???

Gerrard was playing deep for most of the second half, even before Mascherano went off. Did well too.

Lucas was looking good again in my opinion.

They both need to play in front of Mascherano in the box-to-box roles- both need freedom to get forward but at the same time, both need to drop back at times too. It's much better than seeing Gerrard stay forward and Lucas stay back most of the game but joining the attack at times.



I did and gerrard did play deep in the second half, but only after the sending off. What i am talkin about is throuhhout the whole game like you are pointing out. Gerrard should occupy a deeper position that is more CAM than shallow striker. We need a little more edge to the attack, dont you think. Before people get on me, i LOVE the way lucas plays but i think we need a faster passing tempo if we are gonna break down sides.
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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1791 on: August 29, 2009, 07:27:41 pm »
Played well in my view.
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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1792 on: August 29, 2009, 07:31:36 pm »
I did and gerrard did play deep in the second half, but only after the sending off. What i am talkin about is throuhhout the whole game like you are pointing out. Gerrard should occupy a deeper position that is more CAM than shallow striker. We need a little more edge to the attack, dont you think. Before people get on me, i LOVE the way lucas plays but i think we need a faster passing tempo if we are gonna break down sides.

I agree that Gerrard should drop deeper more readily- and I think that'd bring the best out of Lucas as well because those 2 are class players going forward... but I did see that happening today.

It's just that it seems to happen sparingly throughout the game. I'd like to see them both as attacking CMs rather than one being a holding player who gets forward at times, and the other a 2nd striker.

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Offline bullfrog

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1793 on: August 29, 2009, 08:12:52 pm »
its interesting and positive imo that this season rafas allowed him to get forward so often. he seems to ghost into the box fairly often.

Offline Twelfth Man

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1794 on: August 29, 2009, 08:14:26 pm »
its interesting and positive imo that this season rafas allowed him to get forward so often. he seems to ghost into the box fairly often.

Yeah and what does he do when he's in the box? Nothing he had an air kick today. How many goals has he scored for us so far? Pointless him attacking he might as well just keep passing the ball sideways and short and run around like crazy. A bit like having two Kuyts on the pitch, tho only one the dutch one is effective.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 08:16:52 pm by Twelfth Man »
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Offline 6BigCups

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1795 on: August 29, 2009, 08:29:19 pm »
Yeah and what does he do when he's in the box? Nothing he had an air kick today. How many goals has he scored for us so far? Pointless him attacking he might as well just keep passing the ball sideways and short and run around like crazy. A bit like having two Kuyts on the pitch, tho only one the dutch one is effective.

Not really. He's got an eye for the killer ball and a weight of pass in the final third better than most of the players in our squad.

Offline Party Phil

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1796 on: August 29, 2009, 08:40:54 pm »
at least we'll get a couple of players with the £30m odd he'll bring in. God bless our American overlords.

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Offline bullfrog

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1797 on: August 29, 2009, 08:41:16 pm »
Yeah and what does he do when he's in the box? Nothing he had an air kick today. How many goals has he scored for us so far? Pointless him attacking he might as well just keep passing the ball sideways and short and run around like crazy. A bit like having two Kuyts on the pitch, tho only one the dutch one is effective.

glass is always half empty eh  :P  part of the problem is the quality of crosses. check out the guardians chalkboards if you want evidence - only a handful were successful. you can only work with what you're given. besides that if hes in the box its taking attention away from others as opposing defenders are going to have to mark him.

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1798 on: August 29, 2009, 08:50:30 pm »
Offered fuck all to the team apart from getting fouled resulting in a 2nd yellow to their player.

No pace, no strength, no acceleration over a few yards, only plays the square pass, can't tackle, and his shooting ain't great when he's under any kind of pressure.

Don't know what planet you lot are on or god knows what you're smoking in your pipes.

Offline Twelfth Man

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1799 on: August 29, 2009, 08:54:12 pm »
Offered fuck all to the team apart from getting fouled resulting in a 2nd yellow to their player.

No pace, no strength, no acceleration over a few yards, only plays the square pass, can't tackle, and his shooting ain't great when he's under any kind of pressure.

Don't know what planet you lot are on or god knows what you're smoking in your pipes.

Agree tho I would go as far as saying he's a touch better than the picture you paint, but not good enough to get into more than half of the premiership subs benches let alone the bloody 1st team.
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