Author Topic: Islamism  (Read 126268 times)

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1320 on: August 13, 2014, 07:22:12 AM »
One of the things that really frustrates me about talking to the "new atheist" breed of online Dawkins-quoters is this.

Err... What?  Let's ignore all the ad hominems and straw men. I am almost sixty and I have been an atheist pretty much since Sunday school. Difficult as it is for you to understand, many people can actually think for themselves and form their own rational worldview without the need for prophets. My world view has been formed by reading a wide range of books (that's what we read before the Internet) and other sources. It had changed over the years and changes by the day because I have that freedom as a rationalist and as an atheist. I am not a follower or quoter of Dawkins thanks very much. My personal philosophy comes from reading Thomas Paine, Pilger, Hermann Hesse, Shakespeare, Asimov, Phillip K Dick, Borges, Gibbons Decline and Fall, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, Heinlein (Stranger in a Strange Land is a great book),Vonnegut, Daniel Dennett, great investigative journalism and amazing photojournalism. Film, theatre and music have all contributed. Of particular interest to me was the nature of spirituality and where it came from. For my college thesis on the nature of common sense I read widely on the balance between innate behaviour and learned behaviour. When I designed an exhibition about Reliquaries at the British Museum it was fascinating to talk to experts about the nature of worship and how pre-Christian practices were adopted by the early church and how saints and relics were used by the church to control. It also how they brought great comfort. For another show about the Mayans I read widely and spoke to experts about the nature of Pre-Colombian religion and tried to understand their mindset. At the moment I'm designing the British library's Magna Carta exhibition. So I'm knee deep in the development of human freedoms and human rights over the last 800 years. I was at the Houses of Parliament Archives looking at the Petition of Rights and the English Bill of Rights. I've been reading and listening to Gandhi, Mandela and other less well known figures, reading the US Bill of Rights and Jefferson's first draft of the Declaration of Independence...  And so on. My sources are these and thousands of others.

That's the nature of being an atheist and a rationalist. If you embrace it, then everyday is an opportunity to have your world view challenged.

Or maybe we all just quote Dawkins off the Internet. I suppose if your world view is that everything literally comes from one source and can only be interpreted by your particular God's appointed interpreters then the natural model is to think of atheism and rationalism as a religion and Dawkins as it's prophet.

Which all makes your following paragraphs interesting. You may want to equate religions as just another 'world view' but there is a fundamental difference between where I stand and how I think and how someone who believes that their religion is the word of God.

My world view can change based on new evidence. A religious world view is dictated by God.

It's true that to accommodate the real world as well as the inherent contradictions, many religions try to reinterpret that word of God but that tends to result in schisms and factionalisation.

Religions are only 'just another world view' if you take god out of the equation. A Hindu and a Jew have different Gods, different beliefs and different practices. I can respect them (and I do I'm most cases) for what I see them to be, which is a range of cultural practices developed over time that reflects that society's history and environment. But it is surely self-evident that the Hindu gods, Jahweh, God, Thor, Zeus etc cannot all exist. My respect for my fellow man and woman is based on their humanity and their human rights.

I don't believe I have to respect every world view as equal. That way lies madness. I don't respect any person who uses religion to justify violence. I certainly do not think that "All other worldviews are backwards idiocy compared to my enlightened worldview and they should be eliminated" and I'm not sure why you put that in quotation marks.

Oh and if your asking for people to show humility. Don't. Be. So. Fucking. Patronising?

Quote
This idea that by using the word "religion" you get to say "well, we're the only ones without one so we can obviously see what's wrong with all of the others and pass judgment on them.  I hate the word "religion" for this very reason.

You see, you have a worldview (a much more useful word, invented by a very clever German linguist).  A Muslim from Pakistan has a worldview.  The evangelical from Kansas has a worldview.  The reformed Jew from Poland has a worldview.  A worldview is a lens through which you interpret everything and it absolutely biases you to certain conclusions about the world and every single person has one.

Imagine a world where there are competing mathematical systems.  In your system, 2+2=4 and this is very obvious to you.  But then you meet an immigrant from a place where the symbol "2" means something else on a fundamental level.  You hear this man say that 2+2=6, or maybe 2+2=a fryup without beans, and you go ballistic.  How stupid he is, you'll rage, for not seeing what is blindingly obvious to you. 

But you've ignored one thing: He. Does. Not. Accept. Your. Worldview.  The constants upon which you base your philosophy, life goals, and morality are not the same constants upon which he bases his.  You can blather on about your worldview being right and his being wrong (and you obviously like to do this) but it does not matter because until you are dead there is zero chance of proving one or the other.

Now, I would argue that we can and should have discussions about which worldview is correct - which set of fundamental precepts shall we use to make these important decisions?  But let's do this with a bit of respect and take the time to understand the other person.  "All other worldviews are backwards idiocy compared to my enlightened worldview and they should be eliminated" is the worst sort of fundamentalism there is, and is in fact the very thing you're criticising these fundamentalist Muslims for believing.

Instead, I suggest a bit of humility, willingness to learn and patience.  But that's just me, because I'm not a fundamentalist about my worldview.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1321 on: August 13, 2014, 07:51:38 AM »
That is not true. Muslims can and they do condemn horrific acts in the name of God. Imams in many countries have been killed precisely for this. These terrorists have killed more muslims (whom they consider infidels too may I add) more than anyone else. If you have actually read their philosophy derived, they treat everyone who doesnt agree with them as a legitimate target.

Yorky dealt with this to some extent but I did choose my words carefully. And it comes back to the fundamental problem with religious texts.

The reason they cannot wholeheartedly condemn is because the religious fundamentalist terrorists justify their actions with quotations that are actually contained within those texts.

The sensible thing for God to do would be to issue a clarification: "Hey lads, you have got this completely wrong. This is what I actually meant you dumb murdering fucks..."

Unfortunately God for whatever reason has chosen not to do this (I suppose Jesus was an attempt but God is such a cryptic bugger he has to make it over-complicated - burning bushes and stone tablets on mountain tops? Really?), so it's left to moderates to either point to the good bits or explain away the difficult bits as misinterpretation.

What they cannot do is deny that those bits are the word of god. Because history shows that when that happens you get schisms and conflict. Typically followed by persecution and death. 
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 07:53:10 AM by Random Alan #0069 »
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1322 on: August 13, 2014, 08:25:52 AM »
Brilliant post Alan  I also began to question all religions in my teens , and have done ever since and I am in my sixties , my first problem was how can anyone say their religion is the only true one ! Once you get passed this one you examine the whole fabric of religious belief!

I am not trying to patronise but in my opinion some people like order and direction to their lives which a religion gives them, some do not and question the value of religions. I am with the latter group !
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Offline Broad Spectrum

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1323 on: August 13, 2014, 09:18:08 AM »
I have a problem with any society being based on any religion. Most religions were established by people with no real knowledge of the world - they are bronze-age and iron-age (pre-industrial and pre-technological) texts that have only a rudimentary appreciation of science. As such they contain rules for living in largely rural societies with small family groups. The largest cities had a few hundred thousand inhabitants and contact between them and outlying towns took days by horse, cart or by foot on land or by ship on rivers and by seas.

With no knowledge of medicine, food preservation or genetics they had to resort to crude taboos and culinary practices... and so on.


Indonesian Hindus throw live offerings into Mt Bromo volcano








The origin of the festival lies in the 15th century when a princess named Roro Anteng started the principality of Tengger with her husband Joko Seger, and the childless couple asked the mountain gods for help in bearing children. The legend says the gods granted them 24 children but on the provision that the 25th must be tossed into the volcano in sacrifice. After an initial refusal the 25th child, Kesuma, was finally sacrificed in this way, and the tradition of throwing sacrifices into the caldera to appease the mountain gods continues today.

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1324 on: August 13, 2014, 09:31:54 AM »
Instead, I suggest a bit of humility, willingness to learn and patience.  But that's just me, because I'm not a fundamentalist about my worldview.

I love how the second sentence contradicts the first. "You've got to show humility. Just like I do!"

I don't think there's much to your post in truth. You make it sound like anthropology is yet to be invented. Recognising that different world-views exist and that each have an internal coherence is - especially since the age of anthropology - well known and obvious. I can agree with you that some respect needs to be afforded to these world-views since they are sincerely held and honestly generated. But it would be daft to insist that the existence of a sincerely-held world-view somehow puts it beyond my criticism or reproach. The civilisation that insists on 2 + 2 equalling 6 does not deserve our veneration if all its buildings fall down. By the same token the culture that sincerely and honestly believes that disease is caused by the movement of the tides shouldn't have us nodding and saying "Well, that's true in its own way".

We are all part of the same species after all. The stuff that unites us is greater than the stuff that divides us. Conversations can - and do - transcend the sometimes profound cultural gulfs that separate us. We have an obligation therefore to share knowledge even if shared knowledge is dangerous to tradition. It would be a disservice to humanity to relativise everything and say our skyscrapers are no more 'successful' than the 2+2 = 6 structure that keeps crashing down. Likewise, it would be a dereliction to say that the Universal Declaration on Human Rights, for example, is no more valuable than a culture that insists on the sanctity of child sacrifice, simply because that culture sacrifices children with sincerity and in accordance with ancient and venerable customs.
   



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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1325 on: August 13, 2014, 09:44:14 AM »
All part of the fight against Islamism.

From Karachi.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-28754445
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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1326 on: August 13, 2014, 11:45:30 AM »
As long as the "debate" follows the current lines, I won't be wasting my time adding to it.

You mean the debate where you say evolution hasn't been proven and everyone is astonished at your ignorance? Funny how your exit coincided with that particular turn in the discussion.

Anyway, you've said goodbye before and you were back again. See you soon.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1327 on: August 13, 2014, 12:44:59 PM »
I love how the second sentence contradicts the first. "You've got to show humility. Just like I do!"

I don't think I'll respond to Alan's post because I think we're going to have to agree to disagree and leave it at that, hopefully with respect.

However, in reading back my post, you're absolutely spot on to call me out on that part.  It was childish and I apologise unreservedly.
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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1328 on: August 14, 2014, 11:46:33 AM »
Here's a depressing story from a few years back. Yezidi girl stoned to death by her own people for having a Muslim boyfriend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoning_of_Du%27a_Khalil_Aswad




Offline viteslesrouges

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1329 on: August 14, 2014, 01:55:11 PM »
Here's a depressing story from a few years back. Yezidi girl stoned to death by her own people for having a Muslim boyfriend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoning_of_Du%27a_Khalil_Aswad

Yezidis don't accept converts to their faith, not that I imagine there's a queue at all.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1330 on: August 14, 2014, 04:08:30 PM »
Kurdish community reportedly clash with 'ISIS' supporters in Sheffield.

http://searchlight-germany.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/kurds-clash-with-isis-supporters-in.html


From The Times:

Demonstrators in Sheffield trigger angry confrontation with Kurds when they parade through street waving a black flag linked with Islamist extremism

A group of demonstrators in Sheffield triggered an angry confrontation with Kurdish residents when they paraded through a street waving a black flag linked with Islamist extremism.

The men were holding a protest against the conflict in Gaza. They carried a Palestinian flag and a black flag bearing the Muslim declaration of faith, according to police. Versions of this flag are used by Islamic State, the militant group also known as Isis.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2014, 04:13:44 PM by Broad Spectrum »

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1331 on: August 14, 2014, 05:00:06 PM »
So anyway, according to wikiIslam....

The present-day Qur'an does not explicitly mention the act [of stoning], but according to hadith, the Qur'anic verses of stoning were written on a piece of paper and were lost when a goat ate it:

[Narrated 'Aisha] "The verse of the stoning and of suckling an adult ten times were revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my bed. When the messenger of Allah expired and we were preoccupied with his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper."
Musnad Ahmad bin Hanbal. vol. 6. p. 269; Sunan Ibn Majah, p. 626; Ibn Qutbah, Tawil Mukhtalafi 'l-Hadith (Cairo: Maktaba al-Kulliyat al-Azhariyya. 1966) p. 310; As-Suyuti, ad-Durru 'l-Manthur, vol. 2. p. 13

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1332 on: August 14, 2014, 05:04:34 PM »
So anyway, according to wikiIslam....

The present-day Qur'an does not explicitly mention the act [of stoning], but according to hadith, the Qur'anic verses of stoning were written on a piece of paper and were lost when a goat ate it:

[Narrated 'Aisha] "The verse of the stoning and of suckling an adult ten times were revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my bed. When the messenger of Allah expired and we were preoccupied with his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper."
Musnad Ahmad bin Hanbal. vol. 6. p. 269; Sunan Ibn Majah, p. 626; Ibn Qutbah, Tawil Mukhtalafi 'l-Hadith (Cairo: Maktaba al-Kulliyat al-Azhariyya. 1966) p. 310; As-Suyuti, ad-Durru 'l-Manthur, vol. 2. p. 13

A goat ate it? Was it Allah's homework?!

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1333 on: August 14, 2014, 05:06:03 PM »
Ah, the classic homework-avoidance scam.
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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1334 on: August 14, 2014, 05:06:45 PM »
Beaten to it  :)
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Offline Broad Spectrum

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1335 on: August 14, 2014, 05:06:58 PM »
Is there an equivalent mocking Christianity or Judaism, just out of interest?

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1336 on: August 14, 2014, 05:07:17 PM »
Hadith is a load of bunker any way.  It has no historical basis.
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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1337 on: August 14, 2014, 05:07:47 PM »
Is there an equivalent mocking Christianity or Judaism, just out of interest?

An equivalent what?

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1338 on: August 14, 2014, 05:08:07 PM »
Is there an equivalent mocking Christianity or Judaism, just out of interest?
Mocking of Christianity is a national pastime in Britain.

Entire television series have been built on the back of it.....


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Offline Broad Spectrum

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1339 on: August 14, 2014, 05:09:29 PM »
Mocking of Christianity is a national pastime in Britain.

Entire television series have been built on the back of it.....

Yeah I was going more with the Judaism one to be honest.

An equivalent what?

Website. Bet one mocking Judaism is very hard to find!

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1340 on: August 14, 2014, 05:09:56 PM »
Mocking of Christianity is a national pastime in Britain.

Entire television series have been built on the back of it.....




Father Ted's fucking brilliant.

Monty Python's LIfe of Brian even better.

But I must admit I do look forward to the day when we can enjoy Mullah Ted and Monty Python's Life of Al-Brian.
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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1341 on: August 14, 2014, 05:11:47 PM »
Yeah I was going more with the Judaism one to be honest.

Website. Bet one mocking Judaism is very hard to find!
There are a great number of comedians who slaughter Judaism ......

Joan rivers, Jackie Mason, woody Allen, many many more
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Offline Jake

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1342 on: August 14, 2014, 05:13:08 PM »
Website. Bet one mocking Judaism is very hard to find!

I'd say the mainstream TV show South Park and its corresponding website could be classed?

You must admit, "The evidence was eaten by a goat" had comedic value?

That's part of why Islam is feared by some, because you can't mock it without being beheaded.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1343 on: August 14, 2014, 05:13:32 PM »
Website. Bet one mocking Judaism is very hard to find!

WikiIslam is not for mocking purposes, it's a serious site. I've heard it described as a sceptic site or a site critical of Islam but I don't think it's satire. There's also http://www.wikichristian.org/.


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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1344 on: August 14, 2014, 05:25:17 PM »
I'd say the mainstream TV show South Park and its corresponding website could be classed?

You must admit, "The evidence was eaten by a goat" had comedic value?

That's part of why Islam is feared by some, because you can't mock it without being beheaded.

Yeah of course I always have a laugh at the expense of religion/religions! I love science, not religion.


WikiIslam is not for mocking purposes, it's a serious site. I've heard it described as a sceptic site or a site critical of Islam but I don't think it's satire. There's also http://www.wikichristian.org/.



Duno, looks like a piss take to me! Genuinely though, not that I give a shit. Just interested to see if there's sites openly mocking Judaism given how easy it is to be brandished an anti-Semite.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1345 on: August 14, 2014, 05:33:28 PM »
Duno, looks like a piss take to me! Genuinely though, not that I give a shit. Just interested to see if there's sites openly mocking Judaism given how easy it is to be brandished an anti-Semite.

Rabbi Leibowitz is in conversation with God one day. "It's my son Moshe", he tells him, "he's just such a disappointment. His mother wanted him to be a doctor and meet a nice girl and settle down and have kids. I hoped he'd study hard too and become a lawyer maybe, or a successful businessman. But he's wasting his life away God. He's got no job. He hangs around with a group of long-haired dudes who don't work either and he's always getting into trouble. It's killing me".

"Yeah, I know", says God finally, "I have a son just like that myself".
« Last Edit: August 14, 2014, 06:10:57 PM by Yorkykopite »
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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1346 on: August 14, 2014, 08:22:47 PM »
This is a link to a very good comic series called Jesus and Mo, and to one strip in particular which captures some of what this thread has been about. For any Muslims in, it contains a depiction of Muhammad, which is why I didn't slap it up here in all its glory.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1347 on: August 15, 2014, 12:45:56 AM »
WikiIslam is not for mocking purposes, it's a serious site. I've heard it described as a sceptic site or a site critical of Islam but I don't think it's satire. There's also http://www.wikichristian.org/.

WikiIslam was created on October 27, 2005, in collaboration with various individuals from Faith Freedom International who provided the site with server space, technical help and exposure. The site remained in a testing phase for about a year and on September 4, 2006, it was opened to the public.

Faith Freedom International (FFI) is a pre-9/11 website, with an active forum, that is critical of Islam. It was founded by Dr. Ali Sina, a former Muslim from Iran who is currently residing in Canada.

Faith Freedom International welcomes all former Muslims regardless of their current beliefs and, according to the site, "echoes the voice of ex-Muslims who want to stop the spread of Islam, expose its violent nature, and help Muslims to understand it and leave it. We believe in the oneness of humanity and oppose Islam for inciting hatred against non Muslims. Muhammad instructed his follower to conquer the world by the sword and to rule it with terror. We are determined to not let that happen."


So yeah its not a great website to use, unless you want to use it for your anti Islam purposes then i guess its good.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1348 on: August 15, 2014, 12:56:57 AM »
Faith Freedom International (FFI) is a pre-9/11 website, with an active forum, that is critical of Islam.

So yeah its not a great website to use, unless you want to use it for your anti Islam purposes then i guess its good.

I already said it was critical of Islam. It's a considered look at Islam writings, by people who are educated in the field, in so far as such pursuits count as education. It's not a pisstake, which is the only charge I was answering. No doubt you are more scholarly and can disagree with their interpretations. Perhaps you might start with how what I posted is not true.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1349 on: August 15, 2014, 01:16:45 AM »
WikiIslam is not for mocking purposes, it's a serious site. I've heard it described as a sceptic site or a site critical of Islam but I don't think it's satire. There's also http://www.wikichristian.org/.



Anyone with half a brain cell can tell that the information on wikislam is a pisstake. Do you even understand how Wikis work? I can't understand how a grown man can mock others for believing the veracity of religious texts yet spends his life publishing unverified secondary sources to support his anti religious viewpoint.

As I told you before if you had ever completed a piece of original research you would understand where I am coming from. If you're going to be cheap, lazy and ill informed then you will never be taken seriously by those who do know what they are talking about.


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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1350 on: August 15, 2014, 01:22:37 AM »
That's marvellous. Attack the source, rather than the content. Really, you're doing wonders for the whole stereotype thing.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1351 on: August 15, 2014, 01:25:55 AM »
Nonsense. If by atheism you mean the rejection of a god or gods, then your rejection is trivial and empirical in nature. But if by atheism you mean the rejection of the Unmoved Mover (Aristotle), or the Subsistent Act of Being (Aquinas) then your rejection is substantial and metaphysical in nature. And it most certainly constitutes a worldview, or a "metanarrative"

Trivial in the sense that it can't be the cornerstone of a world view, then yes. That was my point.

Empirical in the sense that there is no observable evidence, then yes.

The rationality of human beings, our ability to truly think and to abstract and to reason, our ability to reflect upon our own consciousness and exhibit intentionality, are all features that cannot be accounted for by purely mechanical processes.

Are you sure? Where do they occur?

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1352 on: August 15, 2014, 01:30:37 AM »
Amongst the ex-muslim community, Ali Sina and his website are mostly seen as hate-mongering and extreme in his (/their) views. It's not so much a question of the content of his site but the attitude taken in regards to that content. It's perfectly fine to question the ideas of Islam and criticise laws/ doctrines/ beliefs etc. However, Sina goes one (distasteful) step further and not only criticises Islam, but muslims too. He doesn't just want an end to Islamic ideas that he disagrees with but wants the 99% of muslims that are as peace-loving as the rest of the world to give up their faith as well because he considers them complicit. There are ex-muslims, like myself, who still have muslims as family and find their right to their own faith inviolable.

Generally, the Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain (run by Maryam Namazie) is a better resource for ex-muslim perspectives on Islam if you're interesed. It's also just as critical of ideas, without getting into the nasty business of criticising the average joe muslim.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1353 on: August 15, 2014, 07:52:55 AM »
This is a link to a very good comic series called Jesus and Mo, and to one strip in particular which captures some of what this thread has been about. For any Muslims in, it contains a depiction of Muhammad, which is why I didn't slap it up here in all its glory.
what do you think would be the consequences if you did put it on?

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1354 on: August 15, 2014, 08:44:57 AM »
PRESS RELEASE ISSUED BY LEEDS MAKKAH MASJID

Leeds Muslim Council and Leeds Makkah Mosque unequivocally condemns targeted attacks on Christians, Yazidis, people of other faiths and minority groups in Iraq by the militant group known as ISIS.

Imam of award-winning Makkah Mosque, Dr Qari Asim, MBE said:

" Actions such as the forced deportation, under the threat of execution, of Christians are far removed from the teachings of Islam and the practice of the Prophet of Islam (may Allah’s peace and blessings be upon him). Islamic principles call for justice, kindness, coexistence and freedom of faith. Muslims and non-Muslims have co-existed and lived side by side for centuries and will continue to do so.

Islam has granted specific rights to non-Muslims and minorities living in Muslim countries and it has issued severe warnings to those who infringe rights of minorities."

Many people mistakenly believe that Islam does not tolerate the existence of other religions present in the world. The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) has strictly warned against any maltreatment of people of other faiths. He said:
“Beware! Whoever persecutes and is hard on a non-Muslim minority, or infringes their rights, or burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I (Prophet Muhammad) will complain against that person on the Day of Judgment.” (ref: Abu Dawud)

"The sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) urging Muslims to protect the rights of non-Muslim minorities should be enough for people in power in parts of Iraq to defend the rights of minorities", said Qari Asim MBE.

We urge people of all faiths and no faith to remain united and defend each other's rights and liberties. We should not let militants defeat the objective of achieving peace and harmony in the world.

Our thoughts and prayers are with those who have been affected by such brutal attacks, said a trustee of Leeds Makkah Mosque.

For further details, please contact: @LeedsMosque @QariAsim

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1355 on: August 15, 2014, 09:44:22 AM »
"The sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) urging Muslims to protect the rights of non-Muslim minorities should be enough for people in power in parts of Iraq to defend the rights of minorities", said Qari Asim MBE.

I'd have thought the fact that those being murdered are human beings would have been enough.

"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1356 on: August 15, 2014, 10:41:25 AM »
re mocking christianity Derek Nimmo made almost a career out of playing vicars etc, then we have Dawn French the Vicar of Dibley,

 slightly related and sorry i forgot some details on the news yesterday they interviewed a Adel Ray who writes and stars in Mr Khan about Moeen Ali in society, and he stated that its good that he is regarded as a English Cricketer rather than a Muslim English Cricketer.

Which brings me back to the point in all strands of society there is a need to be able to laugh at ourselves and when people lose this ability then tolerance towards other people goes with it.
The National Pensioners Convention (NPC) is the principal organisation representing pensioners in the United Kingdom. It is made up of around 1,000 bodies representing 1.5 million members, organised into federal regional units.
The NPC was founded by former Transport and General Workers' Union trade union leader, Jack Jones in 1979

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1357 on: August 15, 2014, 10:58:43 AM »
Yes.
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1358 on: August 15, 2014, 11:24:19 AM »
PRESS RELEASE ISSUED BY LEEDS MAKKAH MASJID


Many people mistakenly believe that Islam does not tolerate the existence of other religions present in the world. The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) has strictly warned against any maltreatment of people of other faiths. He said:
“Beware! Whoever persecutes and is hard on a non-Muslim minority, or infringes their rights, or burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I (Prophet Muhammad) will complain against that person on the Day of Judgment.” (ref: Abu Dawud)

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."


It's the cherry pick game again.
“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
― Steven Weinberg

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1359 on: August 15, 2014, 11:26:34 AM »
what do you think would be the consequences if you did put it on?

Nothing probably. But we have Muslims on here, that's a thing they can get upset about so there's no point in rubbing their noses in it.