Author Topic: Youth and Under 23 Thread  (Read 12365807 times)

Offline thaddeus

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100680 on: September 2, 2019, 09:18:42 pm »
Sky just had a reporter based in Italy on saying the Bobby Duncan deal is actually €500k upfront + up to €1m based on appearances + sell on clause so deal may not be as good as is being reported in the uk press
Whether it was $2m, $500k or a bag of footballs makes little difference to us.  A potentially disruptive player is off our books.

If he defies the odds and makes it at Fiorentina then we have the 20% sell-on.

Offline Eeyore

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100681 on: September 2, 2019, 09:33:33 pm »
I don't necessarily disagree (although it's not just a business perspective, it's also a footballing perspective) but this particular situation is extraordinary given Duncan's agent's comments and him bringing his mental health into the public domain. Neither of us know know what the exact truth is and as usual with these things, we probably never will. I guess Duncan and his agent ultimately got what they wanted (and there's nothing wrong with Duncan wanting to leave) although they went about it in a bizarre fashion.

I think the club has got what it wanted aswell a profit on the player albeit a smaller one than they were hoping for. As for the agent  modern transfers often have a pantomime villain at the heart of it. Either the player or the agent takes the flak. Although I think Rubie has gone way over the mark in this instance.
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Offline PIPA23

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100682 on: September 2, 2019, 09:41:25 pm »
good luck to him, he will need it.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100683 on: September 2, 2019, 09:45:58 pm »
For me Rubie and the likes of Pearce and King have all done the same thing which is doing PR pieces for their own ulterior motives. Personally I don't trust what any of them are saying.

Yet you're literally being more critical of the Club, because they signed a young player and sold him for a profit, and a fairly reputable journalist, because they said a player wasn't ready for first team football, than you are to the agent - who accused an entity of bullying, *lied* about mental health issues and has a history of sexist and homophobic comments.

Just... Why?
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100684 on: September 2, 2019, 10:05:18 pm »
I think the club has got what it wanted aswell a profit on the player albeit a smaller one than they were hoping for. As for the agent  modern transfers often have a pantomime villain at the heart of it. Either the player or the agent takes the flak. Although I think Rubie has gone way over the mark in this instance.

Agree for the most part although not sure 'most' modern transfers do, they usually go through without any issues or even mention of an agent (and that's why this one has caused so much comment), unless of course Mino Raiola is involved :P
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100685 on: September 2, 2019, 10:18:17 pm »
Yet you're literally being more critical of the Club, because they signed a young player and sold him for a profit, and a fairly reputable journalist, because they said a player wasn't ready for first team football, than you are to the agent - who accused an entity of bullying, *lied* about mental health issues and has a history of sexist and homophobic comments.

Just... Why?


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Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100686 on: September 2, 2019, 10:56:41 pm »
My take on this is that the Club have made decisions on the likes of Kent, Camacho and Duncan amongst others and had decided that they didn't have a future here so they wanted to offload them and not loan them out. For me we have discovered a nice little sideline in bringing in the likes of Duncan, Solanke, Elliot and Ings on cut price compensation deals. We can then look to sell them on at a premium if they don't work out.

I'm confused here.  What is the problem with this?  We brought players in who ultimately weren't thought to be good enough for the level we are at.  Are we supposed to just let them go for free?  I think you sometimes forget that this is a business and these things have to be taken into account. 

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100687 on: September 3, 2019, 12:35:53 am »
Details of the Ryan Kent deal from Joyce

Kent to Rangers done. £6.5m initial fee, plus £1m in add ons. Liverpool negotiated 20pc cut of future sell on as belief is he could return to PL in future. Leeds United had £4.5m bid rejected on August 7 and FC Krasnodar £5m two weeks ago.

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Offline Redcap

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100688 on: September 3, 2019, 02:43:41 am »
It's the prerogative of a football club to try and get players at the lowest prices and sell them on at the highest prices, particularly when they're not needed in the first team.

It's also the prerogative of a football player to try and play as much as they can at the highest level they can, particularly when they are young players that need to play to develop.

None of that is really the issue here. The club has time and again tried to get good deals, including loans, for our young players, because that is both in the club's best interest and the player's. A young player that thrives at the right club takes a step in a positive direction to a real career, whether at Liverpool or elsewhere. If elsewhere is the answer, Liverpool reaps the benefits financially. There's plenty of scope for win-win there.

The issue on this occasion appears to be that Duncan's agent doesn't want his client to go through any of that process and instead wants him to be sold at age 18 to a foreign club.. because he's way more likely to get first team minutes there? Without knowing enough about just how good Duncan is (from what I've seen in pre-season friendlies, he's more than good enough to have a professional career somewhere, but far from a guarantee to be a top tier footballer, let alone at an elite club), it seems like this is a lose-lose situation. The club gets none of the opportunity to actually invest in the player's career path, and the player goes overseas where he has far fewer friends and none of the language to guide and advise him. Unless of course his agent knows something we don't, and Fiorentina is a better developer of young talent than Liverpool.

It's really a lose-lose-lose, because even the agent ultimately gets a cut of a tiny transfer fee, whereas if he had allowed Duncan to follow the path of his colleagues, it's pretty clear that there's a much bigger payday down the track.

Offline kloppismydad

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100689 on: September 3, 2019, 03:07:15 am »
I can't be the only one who thinks Al 666 is a shill?
Mark my words. Top 8 will be a massive struggle.
We won't make any big signings this season and we will go back to being a top4 club.

Offline Fromola

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100690 on: September 3, 2019, 07:12:42 am »
I'm confused here.  What is the problem with this?  We brought players in who ultimately weren't thought to be good enough for the level we are at.  Are we supposed to just let them go for free?  I think you sometimes forget that this is a business and these things have to be taken into account.

It's the club doing what they should be doing.

If you look at Kent or Solanke under previous regimes we would have loaned them out till their value went to zero. The club were firm with Kent not being loaned.

The way we got our money back off Benteke and deal we got for Ings. It wouldn't have happened under Teflon Ayre or Parry.

Whether more of the sales should be invested back in the team is an argument worth making, but for years we wanted the club to be more effective at transfers.
« Last Edit: September 3, 2019, 07:18:34 am by Fromola »
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Offline RyanBabel19

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100691 on: September 3, 2019, 07:34:21 am »
Good luck to Kent, the contrast in how he and Duncan went about things is huge. Hope he does really well for Rangers, seems a good lad

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100692 on: September 3, 2019, 08:53:43 am »
I can't be the only one who thinks Al 666 is a shill?

At this point he’s become a poster who has a hatred of the owners so ingrained into him after years of arguing how bad and wrong they are, and someone who is clearly ridiculously stubborn and too proud to admit they were wrong, that he takes any chance to shout from the rooftops if he sees a chance.

He’s kind a parody account these days.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100693 on: September 3, 2019, 11:01:31 am »
At this point he’s become a poster who has a hatred of the owners so ingrained into him after years of arguing how bad and wrong they are, and someone who is clearly ridiculously stubborn and too proud to admit they were wrong, that he takes any chance to shout from the rooftops if he sees a chance.

He’s kind a parody account these days.

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Offline HopefulRed

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100694 on: September 3, 2019, 03:28:53 pm »
If I may move the conversation on for a mo, with Glatzel out for months and no Duncan, the U23s will have to rely on Brewster dropping down rather too heavily.  There is no other no 9 except Fidel O’Rourke and he has little experience at U23 level being still an U18s.  He didn’t even get that much play last season with Glatzel and Duncan on fire.   Bearne (also an U18s in age) is really only a No10 or wide man, ditto Harvey Elliott when he also drops from the firsts.  Our U23 defensive line is going to get severely tested this season.  Even if we have an interest in Wigan’s Gelhardt, we cannot buy until January.   I can see us bumping along the bottom of the table this season.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100695 on: September 3, 2019, 04:18:26 pm »
Has Larouci been spotted in the training pictures with the first team? He's listed with the first team on the website but I can't recall seeing him in the training pictures.

Offline Eeyore

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100696 on: September 3, 2019, 04:46:25 pm »
I'm confused here.  What is the problem with this?  We brought players in who ultimately weren't thought to be good enough for the level we are at.  Are we supposed to just let them go for free?  I think you sometimes forget that this is a business and these things have to be taken into account. 

I have already addressed this in an earlier post. I agree wholeheartedly that from a business perspective that bringing in players cheaply and then looking for the maximum return makes sense. The thing is we aren't talking about stocks or shares here or goods we are talking about human beings here.

If you are going to treat players as commodities that can be bought and sold then don't complain when you get negative press when the Club's financial return and what the player perceives as the best thing for their career don't align. 
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Offline xbugawugax

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100697 on: September 3, 2019, 04:56:26 pm »
Good luck to Kent, the contrast in how he and Duncan went about things is huge. Hope he does really well for Rangers, seems a good lad

yeah. looks like a decent lad. maybe his agent is pretty decent too. and he have achieved way more than duncan as well.

Hope he and ojo shines under gerrard. Playing in the Europa league will also be beneficial in the long term hopefully.

Offline phil236849

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100698 on: September 3, 2019, 07:07:01 pm »
I have already addressed this in an earlier post. I agree wholeheartedly that from a business perspective that bringing in players cheaply and then looking for the maximum return makes sense. The thing is we aren't talking about stocks or shares here or goods we are talking about human beings here.

If you are going to treat players as commodities that can be bought and sold then don't complain when you get negative press when the Club's financial return and what the player perceives as the best thing for their career don't align. 

This is competitive football, big boy sh!t.  Buying and selling is part of the rules of engagement.  We do not behave badly.  Your agenda seems to be fuelled by the Duncan episode, where  in fact we were trying not to sell, but to develop the player, and then we gave him his wish when his agent pressed.  The agent's tantrum was well-publicised but all media reports have been sympathetic to the Club.  A choir of one ain't a choir

Offline Fromola

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100699 on: September 3, 2019, 07:36:36 pm »
I have already addressed this in an earlier post. I agree wholeheartedly that from a business perspective that bringing in players cheaply and then looking for the maximum return makes sense. The thing is we aren't talking about stocks or shares here or goods we are talking about human beings here.

If you are going to treat players as commodities that can be bought and sold then don't complain when you get negative press when the Club's financial return and what the player perceives as the best thing for their career don't align.

If the club have told the player to leave and find another club, before this all kicked off, then there's the point to be made.

If it's the player who has chosen to leave then the club are within their rights to at least be able to negotiate a reasonable settlement, rather than have their pants pulled down by Fiorentina and the agent. The club have worked hard to build up a reputation for standing their ground. You can't let people walk all over you, whether it's players, agents or other clubs.

You know yourself how certain agents and agencies took the piss out of us for years. I'd rather this approach than the days of the likes of Purslow sorting out Cole and Carragher with crazy contracts when the club was bankrupt and jobs for the boys.
« Last Edit: September 3, 2019, 07:42:55 pm by Fromola »
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Offline Eeyore

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100700 on: September 3, 2019, 08:03:42 pm »
This is competitive football, big boy sh!t.  Buying and selling is part of the rules of engagement.  We do not behave badly.  Your agenda seems to be fuelled by the Duncan episode, where  in fact we were trying not to sell, but to develop the player, and then we gave him his wish when his agent pressed.  The agent's tantrum was well-publicised but all media reports have been sympathetic to the Club.  A choir of one ain't a choir

If we don't behave badly then why did Duncan have to train with Wigan until he was old enough to avoid our ban on signing academy players.
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Offline phil236849

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100701 on: September 3, 2019, 08:07:50 pm »
If we don't behave badly then why did Duncan have to train with Wigan until he was old enough to avoid our ban on signing academy players.

Was Duncan complaining then? 

Offline Eeyore

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100702 on: September 3, 2019, 08:17:31 pm »
Was Duncan complaining then? 

Sorry but you don't judge whether you are acting correctly by asking whether a player you have clearly tapped up is happy or not.
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Offline phil236849

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100703 on: September 3, 2019, 11:04:24 pm »
Sorry but you don't judge whether you are acting correctly by asking whether a player you have clearly tapped up is happy or not.

You are complaining that the club used Duncan as a commodity, and you are relying on Duncan having to train with Wigan to avoid our ban, which plainly he was happy to do.  Which means you are just complaining.

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100704 on: September 3, 2019, 11:21:45 pm »
Flanagan now Duncan, what a mad link we have with Fiorentina .
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100705 on: September 3, 2019, 11:27:34 pm »
Aquilani and N’goo as well

We must have some kind of partnership going with them
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100706 on: September 3, 2019, 11:38:01 pm »
I have already addressed this in an earlier post. I agree wholeheartedly that from a business perspective that bringing in players cheaply and then looking for the maximum return makes sense. The thing is we aren't talking about stocks or shares here or goods we are talking about human beings here.

If you are going to treat players as commodities that can be bought and sold then don't complain when you get negative press when the Club's financial return and what the player perceives as the best thing for their career don't align.

The conversation probably needs to move on at this point but I don't think people are upset that the player wanted to leave it was more how the agent acted that got people upset. 

Offline Fromola

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100707 on: September 4, 2019, 11:51:46 am »
Flanagan now Duncan, what a mad link we have with Fiorentina .

Their scout must have LFCTVGo
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100708 on: September 4, 2019, 04:19:26 pm »
Fuck the Daily Mail.
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100709 on: September 4, 2019, 04:44:14 pm »
Have to say I expected to see Herbie Kane go on loan to a championship this season, will be interesting to see what the plan is for him.

Offline Too early for flapjacks?

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100710 on: September 4, 2019, 05:54:55 pm »
Bit odd considering he spent pre-season with the U23s, is listed with the academy boys, and doesn't appear to be training with the first team squad now the season has started. Curtis Jones appears to ahead of him in the pecking order and he'll struggle to make the starting line up for the league and FA Cup games unless there are injuries.

Offline Fromola

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100711 on: September 4, 2019, 05:56:52 pm »
Have to say I expected to see Herbie Kane go on loan to a championship this season, will be interesting to see what the plan is for him.

One of the best players in League One last season, I don't know why a Championship loan wasn't lined up, unless the club were more insistent on him playing regularly after Woodburn last year.

I thought Hull would have gone for him after the Doncaster manager went there.

It seems absolutely pointless a footballer going back to youth football after a successful season in the professional leagues.
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100712 on: September 4, 2019, 06:01:57 pm »
Flanagan now Duncan, what a mad link we have with Fiorentina .
What's the Flanagan link to Fiorentina?

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100713 on: September 4, 2019, 06:03:30 pm »
Aquilani and N’goo as well

We must have some kind of partnership going with them
Aqulani played for them but Michael N'goo?

Offline HopefulRed

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100714 on: September 4, 2019, 06:54:23 pm »
Bit odd considering he spent pre-season with the U23s, is listed with the academy boys, and doesn't appear to be training with the first team squad now the season has started. Curtis Jones appears to ahead of him in the pecking order and he'll struggle to make the starting line up for the league and FA Cup games unless there are injuries.

He’s unlikely to be competing with Curtis.  Herbie has always played No 6 role for us, although at times Doncaster used him more as a no 8 last season.  I agree it’s a bit odd he didn’t get a championship loan this season, or a foreign loan.  No point going back to league One or the U23s.  But I wonder why Chirivella is still there.  Surely we’d have let him go on a free if he wanted to. 

Offline El Lobo

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100715 on: September 4, 2019, 06:55:18 pm »
Aqulani played for them but Michael N'goo?

Yep. Ryan McLaughlin too.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline HopefulRed

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100716 on: September 4, 2019, 06:59:29 pm »
Good to see the academy using the break to give playing time to some who have;’t had much.  Waiting to see Conor Bradley, our new recruit from N Ireland.  But what’s with Max Woltman and Dominic Corness?  Somewhere on the internet it says they are August and May birthdays so they should be old enough to have a profile on the LFC site.  I know Balzagi isn’t because he’s not 16 until later this month. 

Offline Fromola

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100717 on: September 4, 2019, 07:36:39 pm »
Yep. Ryan McLaughlin too.

They were after Craig Roddan at one point
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Offline MolbyLovesGravlax

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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100718 on: September 4, 2019, 07:42:46 pm »
They were after Craig Roddan at one point

Didn't Ibe play for them on any date he was cup tied?
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Re: Youth and Under 23 Thread
« Reply #100719 on: September 4, 2019, 08:27:46 pm »
Have to say I expected to see Herbie Kane go on loan to a championship this season, will be interesting to see what the plan is for him.
I thought he'd have been away too. Seems a bit odd to me to keep him around given the number of senior CMs at the club; at his age I'd have thought it would make far more sense for his development to be playing regular footy. Still, maybe the thinking is that he could get a shot at some point if Milner and/or Hendo have to cover fullback and some of our midfielders seem prone to the odd knock or seven too, so I suppose it's not completely outside the realms of possibility that he makes an appearance. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see him never even make the bench though, which would be a shame.