Topic: Darwin Núñez (Darwin Gabriel Núñez Ribeiro)

[Eeyore]

Watkins is much more suited to how we play than Isak to be fair.

Don't know how Isak fits into a Klopp team at all..

The thing is Nunez is being compared with Watkins because he is flavour of the month. Go back 9 or 10 weeks and we were getting the same shouts about Toney. Now he hasn't scored in any of his last 10 games. The Toney shouts have gone quiet.

[istvan kozma]

The thing is Nunez is being compared with Watkins because he is flavour of the month. Go back 9 or 10 weeks and we were getting the same shouts about Toney. Now he hasn't scored in any of his last 10 games. The Toney shouts have gone quiet.

You were 1 of the first with the comparisons.....

What sums it up for me is the notion that Nunez can't possibly improve his finishing.

That opinion is being voiced in a season when Watkins has gone from 11 League goals in 21-22 to 19 this season.

Solanke has gone from 6 League goals last season to 18 this season.

Bowen has gone from 6 League goals last season to 16 this season.

Isak has gone from 10 League goals last season to 19 this season.

It is almost as if players get better at goalscoring as they mature and start to reach the peak years of their careers. Yet posters are writing Darwin off at 24 years of age.

.....Short memory

[mullyred94]

The thing is Nunez is being compared with Watkins because he is flavour of the month. Go back 9 or 10 weeks and we were getting the same shouts about Toney. Now he hasn't scored in any of his last 10 games. The Toney shouts have gone quiet.

Watkins does play in a similar vein to Nunez in terms of what he is asked to do in all seriousness.

Like I've stated here someone that watches Villa every week thinks that he has vastly over achieved, his first touch is very iffy etc.

Isak on the other hand is very similar to Haaland in the way he plays, which despite being the best striker on the planet the actual profile of the player without the super human finishing ability (Haaland) would not be what Klopp would have wanted.

You were 1 of the first with the comparisons..........Short memory

Watkins was brought up WAY before that post and it wasn't the people trying to defend Nunez it was the opposite.

[Rhi]

Bit personal for a mod but you do you

Your comment is misplaced on that quote you’ve posted though because it’s not really my opinion it’s a comment on his analytics
I didnt invent the rules  .. other very bright people did that then proved it over huge sample sizes … his metrics are really good - there’s never been much else to say about them (his shot volume, xa, xg, etc aren’t opinion based things)

Therefore no one that’s analytics based doesn’t rate him - that’s not my opinion or arrogance or anything else to do with me

If you don’t rate him because of play style, technical ability, fit into the team / system, attitude, fitness record or you just don’t think analytics is vallid as a thing at all that’s all one person’s opinion either way but me saying his on ball analytics for a forward are very good isn’t

I'm an actual real life data scientist, I don't need you to mansplain analytics to me.

Metrics are fine. Descriptive. Basic. Vaguely interesting. They don't exist within a vacuum, which is what you reduce your posts to. And if you can't look passed the numbers to the context then you don't understand how to get real value from data. Metrics in isolation are useless. That's as true in football as it is in any industry.

And if Naby Keita hasn't taught you this lesson already, then I don't know what to tell you.

[Eeyore]

You were 1 of the first with the comparisons..........Short memory

Cheeky bastard I am a donkey not a goldfish. Equineist.

You are actually illustrating my point perfectly. No one would have suggested signing Watkins two years ago. He gets brought up now because after a run in the team, maturing and hitting the peak years of his career, he is now flourishing.

Unfortunately, you will not give Nunez that same opportunity.

[istvan kozma]

Cheeky bastard I am a donkey not a goldfish. Equineist.

You are actually illustrating my point perfectly. No one would have suggested signing Watkins two years ago. He gets brought up now because after a run in the team, maturing and hitting the peak years of his career, he is now flourishing.

Unfortunately, you will not give Nunez that same opportunity.

Where have said that?
I just disagree with you and others about his performances for LFC, until now.

[Knight]

I'm an actual real life data scientist, I don't need you to mansplain analytics to me.

Metrics are fine. Descriptive. Basic. Vaguely interesting. They don't exist within a vacuum, which is what you reduce your posts to. And if you can't look passed the numbers to the context then you don't understand how to get real value from data. Metrics in isolation are useless. That's as true in football as it is in any industry.

And if Naby Keita hasn't taught you this lesson already, then I don't know what to tell you.

Keita was very, very good for us when on the pitch and absolutely lived up to his outrageous data. Sadly on pitch performance can’t predict whether a players body will fall apart on him. So no, Keita example doesn’t really tell us anything about the usefulness of Nunez’s underlying numbers. Where’s that Ian Graham quote? Feels like it needs wheeling out again now someone has gone all CV on us.

[Wool]

Where’s that Ian Graham quote? Feels like it needs wheeling out again now someone has gone all CV on us.

Why has he set up a consultancy business when all you need is this one cheat metric to identify a good striker? Why does StatsBomb exist? The magical metric is available to all for free on fbref.

[Eeyore]

Why has he set up a consultancy business when all you need is this one cheat metric to identify a good striker? Why does StatsBomb exist? The magical metric is available to all for free on fbref.

Man City have purchased the cheat metric, unfortunately.

[Rhi]

Man City have purchased the cheat metric, unfortunately.

xCheat

[RedG13]

Keita was very, very good for us when on the pitch and absolutely lived up to his outrageous data. Sadly on pitch performance can’t predict whether a players body will fall apart on him. So no, Keita example doesn’t really tell us anything about the usefulness of Nunez’s underlying numbers. Where’s that Ian Graham quote? Feels like it needs wheeling out again now someone has gone all CV on us.

From the espn article

A scout or a coach would say, "Why do we like this forward?" His team would respond, "He takes loads of really good shots." The scout or coach would counter, "Yeah, but does he drive inside enough? Does he bring his teammates into play enough?"

"But we're playing them up front," Graham said. "He takes loads of good quality shots. There is literally nothing else to say. All other arguments, they're second-order effects compared to this. But people love to mystify and bring more and more factors into play. A use of the data is just to say: This is the important thing and we might be wrong about it -- we sometimes are wrong -- but you have to come up with some really good arguments against this one really important thing."

[Rhi]

Keita was very, very good for us when on the pitch and absolutely lived up to his outrageous data.

I mean... in very, very small pockets that might be true, but I honestly think you're insane if you believe that to be true over his Liverpool career. But let's not get sidetracked here. I realise I brought it up.

Ultimately we all want Nunez to succeed because Nunez succeeding means Liverpool have more chance of succeeding. But all I'm saying is that he needs more than good numbers to be a success. He needs to put away the big chances that change games, and a handful of examples aside, he's just not been able to do that so far. Will be interesting to see what the new manager does with him.

[Pistolero]

Keita was very, very good for us when on the pitch and absolutely lived up to his outrageous data.

As Vic once sang to Bob...you ..are talking out yer arse son ..

[PEG2K]

(No idea why you've used 900 minutes as a sample when he's got 2000 minutes?.. I mean I do know why you've done this but its pretty transparent) 

What are you trying to imply here lol. I chose 900 minutes because it equals 10x90s which makes it very easy to remove the players who only played a few games (2 digits vs 3 digits in the 90s column as seen in the picture above). Also 10 full games seems like it's big enough of a sample size.

Spoiler

[close]

You people would win all the medals at the mental gymnastics olympic. If you think including the players who played between 900 to 2000 minutes in the comparison is unfair to Nunez, then how does it suddenly become fair when Nunez is compared with Watkins Bowen and Solanke who clocked around 3000 minutes? And how is it fair for those players when they're playing for much worse teams than us?

The logic is quite simple really. He's an out an out 9, playing for a top 3 team in England, chasing a title. He hasn't gotten any serious injuries all season. I'd expect his goals, or goals per90, at least among the top 5 in the league. Then you look at the strikers in the other top 10 teams in the league:
- City: Haaland
- Arsenal dont play with a real 9
- Villa: Watkins
- Tottenham: Richardlison (maybe?)
- Newcastle: Isak
- Man United: fake Haaland
- Chelsea: Jackson
- West Ham: Bowen (not even really no 9, he spent half of his time elsewhere)
- Bournemouth: Solanke

The only players that Nunez has a better per90 goal record than, is Hojlund and Jackson lol. And there's also a couple of strikers in the bottom 10 teams who have better record than him.

[Eeyore]

What are you trying to imply here lol. I chose 900 minutes because it equals 10x90s which makes it very easy to remove the players who only played a few games (2 digits vs 3 digits in the 90s column as seen in the picture above). Also 10 full games seems like it's big enough of a sample size.

Spoiler

[close]

You people would win all the medals at the mental gymnastics olympic. If you think including the players who played between 900 to 2000 minutes in the comparison is unfair to Nunez, then how does it suddenly become fair when Nunez is compared with Watkins Bowen and Solanke who clocked around 3000 minutes? And how is it fair for those players when they're playing for much worse teams than us?

The logic is quite simple really. He's an out an out 9, playing for a top 3 team in England, chasing a title. He hasn't gotten any serious injuries all season. I'd expect his goals, or goals per90, at least among the top 5 in the league. Then you look at the strikers in the other top 10 teams in the league:
- City: Haaland
- Arsenal dont play with a real 9
- Villa: Watkins
- Tottenham: Richardlison (maybe?)
- Newcastle: Isak
- Man United: fake Haaland
- Chelsea: Jackson
- West Ham: Bowen (not even really no 9, he spent half of his time elsewhere)
- Bournemouth: Solanke

The only players that Nunez has a better per90 goal record than, is Hojlund and Jackson lol. And there's also a couple of strikers in the bottom 10 teams who have better record than him.

Out and out 9's don't get played on the left and create as many assists.

A good comparison for me would be Alvarez at City. 10 League goals and 9 assists in 2650 minutes.

[PEG2K]

Out and out 9's don't get played on the left and create as many assists.

A good comparison for me would be Alvarez at City. 10 League goals and 9 assists in 2650 minutes.

He played once in the league as LW lol. Already corrected you about this before. For a stats guy you sure can be dishonest.

[Fiasco]

Keita was very, very good for us when on the pitch and absolutely lived up to his outrageous data. Sadly on pitch performance can’t predict whether a players body will fall apart on him. So no, Keita example doesn’t really tell us anything about the usefulness of Nunez’s underlying numbers. Where’s that Ian Graham quote? Feels like it needs wheeling out again now someone has gone all CV on us.

No, he didn't. Not nearly enough anyway. This is where data and obsession with it in footballing context falls apart because the narrative seems to be that the only reason Keita wasn't a success here was because his body let him down. That is true to a fair extent, but he didn't deliver his promise when on the pitch. Progressive dribble, key pass, expected assist me all you want, I don't need it when I watched him often underwhelm for 5 years.

Similar with Darwin. Jacks point about being not being able to not rate Nunez if you understand data is wrong. Data is useful in footballing terms clearly but it is not the absolute oracle and Nunez is getting away with a lot because his 'underlying numbers' are great when he's simply not scoring enough goals for us and has missed too many chances to be deemed a success.


I was patronised to fuck 18 months ago over Nunez and was told the data said he could score 30 or more goals in the season I was told it. At the end of the following season, this one, he still hasn't reached the goals I was told the data said he would from the season before. But you know, the numbers.

[Knight]

No, he didn't. Not nearly enough anyway. This is where data and obsession with it in footballing context falls apart because the narrative seems to be that the only reason Keita wasn't a success here was because his body let him down. That is true to a fair extent, but he didn't deliver his promise when on the pitch. Progressive dribble, key pass, expected assist me all you want, I don't need it when I watched him often underwhelm for 5 years.

Similar with Darwin. Jacks point about being not being able to not rate Nunez if you understand data is wrong. Data is useful in footballing terms clearly but it is not the absolute oracle and Nunez is getting away with a lot because his 'underlying numbers' are great when he's simply not scoring enough goals for us and has missed too many chances to be deemed a success.


I was patronised to fuck 18 months ago over Nunez and was told the data said he could score 30 or more goals in the season I was told it. At the end of the following season, this one, he still hasn't reached the goals I was told the data said he would from the season before. But you know, the numbers.

Keita is an interesting case because he really frustrated fans with a. his injury woes and b. a couple of high profile awful performances where he was hooked at half time (although in these games he was no worse than any other midfielder), but for the most part he was actually really good for us. He just couldn’t get on the pitch often enough. His performance in the first half of the Man City cup semi in 2022 was the greatest pressing performance by a Klopp midfielder we’ve seen. Absolutely outstanding. This is a classic case where the understandable frustrations have been allowed to over shadow the actual reality. A little like how Nunez’s finishing has been allowed to over shadow what he nonetheless still contributes.

[Eeyore]

He played once in the league as LW lol. Already corrected you about this before. For a stats guy you sure can be dishonest.

That simply isn't true though. There have been loads of games in which Gakpo or Jota have come on and we have switched Nunez to the left. Or he has started on the left and then switched infield.

I am far from a stats guy. I think stats should be used as a tool to either reinforce your opinion or to balance out a prejudice.

Again what is wrong with the Alvarez comparison?

Neither are tasked with being the main goalscorer, neither are first choice penalty taker and both players provide lots of assists?

[PEG2K]

That simply isn't true though. There have been loads of games in which Gakpo or Jota have come on and we have switched Nunez to the left. Or he has started on the left and then switched infield.

I am far from a stats guy. I think stats should be used as a tool to either reinforce your opinion or to balance out a prejudice.

Again what is wrong with the Alvarez comparison?

Neither are tasked with being the main goalscorer, neither are first choice penalty taker and both players provide lots of assists?

Come one man you're not fooling anyone here. There is exatly one time as I counted in the league. There might be a few times in the dying minutes of the games that our forwards switched positions, but certainly not "loads of games". You might as well say that he likes to drift left. But all central strikers drift wide at times too.

When all the public stats sites (fbref, whoscored, sofa) all point out that he spent like 90% of his time as the central striker, how could you come up with a trust me bro argument like that lol.

And bringing up Alvarez is even more ridiculous. The guy is basically an AM for Pep. Once again, the stats sites confirm that. Just think, Haaland started 26 games and Alvarez 31, out of City's 35 games. He can't be the ST more than 9 times. Or you could just look at the entire season heat maps of Nunez and Alvarez and see what's wrong with the comparison lol:


(doesn't take a big brain to guess which one belongs to whom)

Also, Nunez is not tasked with being the main scorer? God knows why we spent 80M to buy a guy who is neither false nor real 9 lol.

[DarkOfTheManatee]

Keita is an interesting case because he really frustrated fans with a. his injury woes and b. a couple of high profile awful performances where he was hooked at half time (although in these games he was no worse than any other midfielder), but for the most part he was actually really good for us. He just couldn’t get on the pitch often enough. His performance in the first half of the Man City cup semi in 2022 was the greatest pressing performance by a Klopp midfielder we’ve seen. Absolutely outstanding. This is a classic case where the understandable frustrations have been allowed to over shadow the actual reality. A little like how Nunez’s finishing has been allowed to over shadow what he nonetheless still contributes.

Agree. I can understand that his missed potential is frustrating - I genuinely thought he would be a gamechanging midfielder for us when we signed him, and he obviously didn't end up being that - but the premise that he passed the data test but not the eye test when he played doesn't ring true for me. Maybe not a spectacular creative force, but tidy, composed and hardworking.

The only way he was underwhelming in the season we won the CL and reached 97 points in the league was relative to the level we were hoping he was going to reach. He was an important squad player that year and in the near-quadruple year too. Think his poor last season tarnished his overall stint in the eyes of many, but the years he was available, he played a big role.

Back to Nunez, my slight worry with him is actually that he seems to have lost a bit of the unpredictability and dynamism that he had when he first joined, which made him borderline unplayable at times even when he wasn't scoring. But that might be down to changes in our style and injuries to players who facilitated him like Trent. Hopefully Slot will rejuvenate him, because I really don't see many strikers that present an obvious upgrade.

[Eeyore]

Come one man you're not fooling anyone here. There is exatly one time as I counted in the league. There might be a few times in the dying minutes of the games that our forwards switched positions, but certainly not "loads of games". You might as well say that he likes to drift left. But all central strikers drift wide at times too.

When all the public stats sites (fbref, whoscored, sofa) all point out that he spent like 90% of his time as the central striker, how could you come up with a trust me bro argument like that lol.

And bringing up Alvarez is even more ridiculous. The guy is basically an AM for Pep. Once again, the stats sites confirm that. Just think, Haaland started 26 games and Alvarez 31, out of City's 35 games. He can't be the ST more than 9 times. Or you could just look at the entire season heat maps of Nunez and Alvarez and see what's wrong with the comparison lol:


(doesn't take a big brain to guess which one belongs to whom)

Also, Nunez is not tasked with being the main scorer? God knows why we spent 80M to buy a guy who is neither false nor real 9 lol.

Are you taking the piss.

The Nunez heat map clearly shows he hasn't been playing as an out and out 9.

The biggest concentration of touches is outside the box and to the left.

Exactly what you would expect from a player who has played centrally and on the left.

Compare that to Haaland.



Are you seriously suggesting that Nunez and Haaland are both playing in the same areas of the pitch and that both are out and out 9's.

Answer this question if Nunez is the one tasked with scoring the majority of our goals why when he was 12 from 12 on penalties. Then why wasn't he taking penalties?

[RyanBabel19]

This thread is crazy haha

Still think the middle ground is the way to go personally. Recognise he has areas that are preventing him from reaching the next level but he has some real qualities that make him an asset

The flat out one side vs the other just goes in circles and ignores that both sides have some valid points while ignoring some important points from the opposing side.

[Eeyore]

This thread is crazy haha

Still think the middle ground is the way to go personally. Recognise he has areas that are preventing him from reaching the next level but he has some real qualities that make him an asset

The flat out one side vs the other just goes in circles and ignores that both sides have some valid points while ignoring some important points from the opposing side.

Have to agree.

Nunez has an incredible ceiling for me. Obviously, he is miles away from fulfilling that potential at the moment. He has had a season in which his finishing has let him down.

For me, he has been fair to middling this season and needs to kick on.

[keano7]

Have to agree.

Nunez has an incredible ceiling for me. Obviously, he is miles away from fulfilling that potential at the moment. He has had a season in which his finishing has let him down.

For me, he has been fair to middling this season and needs to kick on.

He’s had two seasons and the jury is still out. Apart from brief glimpses, I haven’t seen anything from him that tells me next season he’s going to bag 20 league goals. Compare him to Isak and it’s chalk and cheese in terms of composure in the finishing department. That’s what wins you leagues at the end of the day.

[PEG2K]

Are you taking the piss.

The Nunez heat map clearly shows he hasn't been playing as an out and out 9.

The biggest concentration of touches is outside the box and to the left.

Exactly what you would expect from a player who has played centrally and on the left.

Compare that to Haaland.

Are you seriously suggesting that Nunez and Haaland are both playing in the same areas of the pitch and that both are out and out 9's.

Answer this question if Nunez is the one tasked with scoring the majority of our goals why when he was 12 from 12 on penalties. Then why wasn't he taking penalties?

Stop clutching at straw.

That is the heat map of an out and out 9. He tends to drift left more than right, hence you have that red zone, which is not even that far wide. If you're counting on that to pretend like he's played LW "loads of times" then maybe the likes of Watkins and Isak (and shit loads of other strikers) can also be counted as attacking midfielders lol.

This is the heat map of a player who both played centrally and on the left, as you described (and by that I mean significant minutes in both roles):


Can you guess which player it is?

Spoiler

It's Nunez, but from last season

[close]

And this is the heat map of a false 9 who also spent some time as LW:

That is Cody Gakpo last season.

And the heat map of a true false 9, the best one we've had under Klopp:


Haaland's heat map looks like that because City spend 80 percent of their game pinning their opponents in their box.

Your last question is ridiculous. Scoring goals (from live ball) and pen duties are not correlated at all. Salah was tasked with scoring the majority of our goals but Milner was always the no 1 pen taker.
 
P.S: dont you feel embarassing that every time I pointed out you're wrong, with solid evidences, that you just glossed over it as if the argument never existed, like the one about Alvarez above?

[Eeyore]

He’s had two seasons and the jury is still out. Apart from brief glimpses, I haven’t seen anything from him that tells me next season he’s going to bag 20 league goals. Compare him to Isak and it’s chalk and cheese in terms of composure in the finishing department. That’s what wins you leagues at the end of the day.

A few weeks ago it was Toney it is now Isak.

So how many titles has Isak won?

[Haggis36]

This thread is crazy haha

Still think the middle ground is the way to go personally. Recognise he has areas that are preventing him from reaching the next level but he has some real qualities that make him an asset

The flat out one side vs the other just goes in circles and ignores that both sides have some valid points while ignoring some important points from the opposing side.

I've never seen anything like it, it's wild. Pages and pages of discourse, often when he hasn't even played, and endless circular arguments about stats, pulling them apart to suit whatever narrative people prefer. Fact of the matter is whether they'll admit or not, most people have written him off as shite, and are just coming up with increasingly tenuous reasons or measures to justify it.

Meanwhile, in terms of those boring old statistics like scoring goals and creating assists, he's one of the most productive forwards in the league. Is he perfect? No. Does he frustrate? Yes, regularly. Is there stuff there to work with and improve upon? Absolutely. Has he had a disappointing end to the season? Who fucking hasn't. Is he a "league winning striker"? I dunno, but Arsenal are in with a shot of it with Kai Havertz up front, so maybe there's a bit more to it than just "ah but does he LOOK like a natural finisher".

Isak and Watkins are very good strikers, but they don't play for Liverpool and almost certainly never will so the relentless comparisons are by in large, completely pointless. As you say though, 90% of this thread is just people who think he's shite bickering with people who think he's boss and it's a waste of time, because most people have already made their minds up and are unwilling to budge. Which is true of a lot of players to be fair, but no-one seems to attract the heat this lad does. He'll likely still be our main striker next season, so I'm sure we can look forward to another 12 months minimum of it.

[Eeyore]

Stop clutching at straw.

That is the heat map of an out and out 9. He tends to drift left more than right, hence you have that red zone, which is not even that far wide. If you're counting on that to pretend like he's played LW "loads of times" then maybe the likes of Watkins and Isak (and shit loads of other strikers) can also be counted as attacking midfielders lol.

This is the heat map of a player who both played centrally and on the left, as you described (and by that I mean significant minutes in both roles):


Can you guess which player it is?

Spoiler

It's Nunez, but from last season

[close]

And this is the heat map of a false 9 who also spent some time as LW:

That is Cody Gakpo last season.

And the heat map of a true false 9, the best one we've had under Klopp:


Haaland's heat map looks like that because City spend 80 percent of their game pinning their opponents in their box.

Your last question is ridiculous. Scoring goals (from live ball) and pen duties are not correlated at all. Salah was tasked with scoring the majority of our goals but Milner was always the no 1 pen taker.
 
P.S: dont you feel embarassing that every time I pointed out you're wrong, with solid evidences, that you just glossed over it as if the argument never existed, like the one about Alvarez above?

Milner was not the No1 penalty taker.

Salah arrived in the summer of 2017. At the start of that season Firmino was on penalties despite Milner and Salah being on the pitch. That was because Milner missed a crucial penalty during the Southampton game that finished 0-0 that almost cost us top 4 the previous season.

At the start of that season we didn't have a regular penalty taker.

Here is proof.



Milner no1 penalty taker my arse.

[PEG2K]

Milner was not the No1 penalty taker.

Salah arrived in the summer of 2017. At the start of that season Firmino was on penalties despite Milner and Salah being on the pitch. That was because Milner missed a crucial penalty during the Southampton game that finished 0-0 that almost cost us top 4 the previous season.

At the start of that season we didn't have a regular penalty taker.

Here is proof.



Milner no1 penalty taker my arse.

Lol how can a post be this wrong on so many levels? I can't tell if you're actually ignorant or just acting like child to win over such a small detail, so small that even if you win, won't even prove the main point.

Even in that post you already admitted Milner was the no1 pen taker in the 16/17 season.

Then in the "proof" you showed, what actually happened in those games was:



- every time Milner took a pen, at least one of the front 3 was on the pitch
- every time another player took a pen, Milner was not on the pitch, except for two occasions where Salah took the pens. One was the 1st pen he ever took for Liverpool, maybe Klopp wanted to change the no1 pen taker there, but he missed, so that role went back to Milner. Second was when we were up 2-0 in the 80th min against a relegation fodder, which probably means Milner let Salah take to pad his goal stats.

Go on and check the 18/19 season. I dare you to come back here to make that ridiculous statement. Every Liverpool fan knows Milner was the no 1 pen taker when he's on the pitch. Fucking ask Klopp.

And finally, let's pretend in a paralel universe where Milner is not the no 1 pen taker for us, what does it have anything to do with who is tasked with being the main goalscorer lol?

[Kansti]

Watkins does play in a similar vein to Nunez in terms of what he is asked to do in all seriousness.

Like I've stated here someone that watches Villa every week thinks that he has vastly over achieved, his first touch is very iffy etc.

Isak on the other hand is very similar to Haaland in the way he plays, which despite being the best striker on the planet the actual profile of the player without the super human finishing ability (Haaland) would not be what Klopp would have wanted.

I find it weird that Watkins performing well this season is deemed as over-achieving, and Darwin’s only season in which he “over-achieved” is viewed as his norm. I also find it weird that variance is kindly accepted as the reason Darwin will eventually be elite, when the statistical probability is that he will continue to under-achieve. Also, why is having an iffy first touch used as a stick to beat on Watkins, when Darwin’s first touch is obviously one of his worst attributes? Am I making sense? Just curious

[spider-neil]

No, he didn't. Not nearly enough anyway. This is where data and obsession with it in footballing context falls apart because the narrative seems to be that the only reason Keita wasn't a success here was because his body let him down. That is true to a fair extent, but he didn't deliver his promise when on the pitch. Progressive dribble, key pass, expected assist me all you want, I don't need it when I watched him often underwhelm for 5 years.

Similar with Darwin. Jacks point about being not being able to not rate Nunez if you understand data is wrong. Data is useful in footballing terms clearly but it is not the absolute oracle and Nunez is getting away with a lot because his 'underlying numbers' are great when he's simply not scoring enough goals for us and has missed too many chances to be deemed a success.


I was patronised to fuck 18 months ago over Nunez and was told the data said he could score 30 or more goals in the season I was told it. At the end of the following season, this one, he still hasn't reached the goals I was told the data said he would from the season before. But you know, the numbers.

When we got Keita on the pitch he was good. When Keita was in the Liverpool gained more points. The problem was we couldn't get him on the pitch often enough. But this has been done to death.

[alonsoisared]

Only 5 players have played more minutes than him this season? How many players in our squad could be described as automatic first choice? Alisson, VVD, Mac, Salah probably. When you have 5 good forwards of course you're not going to play 90 minutes every week. Klopp has typically asked 2 of the 3 forwards to squeeze all their running into 60 minutes so that the remaining two forwards can come on for the last 30. That's why Diaz and Núñez are often subbed around the hour mark for Gakpo and Jota/Elliott.

If the argument is: Núñez so far is not as good a Liverpool player as Suarez, Torres, Owen, Sturbridge, Salah and Fowler I'm not sure you'll get many arguments.

In a season where so many of our players have suffered long term injuries, yes. Jack is saying that all he wants to see from Nunez is him to be "more available" and that we need our key players playing close to 3000 minutes. Nunez could hardly have been more available this season, he just doesn't get trusted with that many minutes. I'd say you could put Trent and Robbo in your list of key players (although both have had time on the bench due to recovering from injuries) . If you're looking at a spine of a team you basically want starting every week, your record signing should be number 1 on the list. He isn't though, but what gets argued is that if he just had more minutes he'd be scoring x amount of goals. Why is the boss not giving them to him?

I accept your point about how he is used but again I would say your top players, especially goalscorers, should be practically unbenchable, especially in a season where we've been chasing goals late in games. For the money we paid for him and the sacrifices to our all round game, he should be on the level of those players I listed. He's nowhere near it at the moment.

As for this "if he's our go to goalscorer, why isn't he taking penalties then?" argument...come on Al! Were Torres, Owen and Suarez not our main goalscorers?

[spider-neil]

In a season where so many of our players have suffered long term injuries, yes. Jack is saying that all he wants to see from Nunez is him to be "more available" and that we need our key players playing close to 3000 minutes. Nunez could hardly have been more available this season, he just doesn't get trusted with that many minutes. I'd say you could put Trent and Robbo in your list of key players (although both have had time on the bench due to recovering from injuries) . If you're looking at a spine of a team you basically want starting every week, your record signing should be number 1 on the list. He isn't though, but what gets argued is that if he just had more minutes he'd be scoring x amount of goals. Why is the boss not giving them to him?

I accept your point about how he is used but again I would say your top players, especially goalscorers, should be practically unbenchable, especially in a season where we've been chasing goals late in games. For the money we paid for him and the sacrifices to our all round game, he should be on the level of those players I listed. He's nowhere near it at the moment.

As for this "if he's our go to goalscorer, why isn't he taking penalties then?" argument...come on Al! Were Torres, Owen and Suarez not our main goalscorers?

The big reason why most of those guys didn't take penalties is because they weren't very good at them.

[Eeyore]

Lol how can a post be this wrong on so many levels? I can't tell if you're actually ignorant or just acting like child to win over such a small detail, so small that even if you win, won't even prove the main point.

Even in that post you already admitted Milner was the no1 pen taker in the 16/17 season.

Then in the "proof" you showed, what actually happened in those games was:



- every time Milner took a pen, at least one of the front 3 was on the pitch
- every time another player took a pen, Milner was not on the pitch, except for two occasions where Salah took the pens. One was the 1st pen he ever took for Liverpool, maybe Klopp wanted to change the no1 pen taker there, but he missed, so that role went back to Milner. Second was when we were up 2-0 in the 80th min against a relegation fodder, which probably means Milner let Salah take to pad his goal stats.

Go on and check the 18/19 season. I dare you to come back here to make that ridiculous statement. Every Liverpool fan knows Milner was the no 1 pen taker when he's on the pitch. Fucking ask Klopp.

And finally, let's pretend in a paralel universe where Milner is not the no 1 pen taker for us, what does it have anything to do with who is tasked with being the main goalscorer lol?

So Klopp wanted the players judged on goals like Firmino and Salah to take penalties. Unfortunately they missed. Klopp did that even though Milner was really good from the spot. For me he wanted players judged on penalties to pad out their stats presumably so there was less pressure on them.

Even when Nunez was 12 from 12 on career penalties he wasn't given penalties. During that period Salah was missing penalties on a regular basis. For me I think Macca and Nunez are better penalty takers than Salah  he takes them because he is still judged on how many goals he scores.

Salah has 12 none penalty League goals this season Nunez has 11. If he wasn't on penalties would you be piling in on Salah for his terrible goal scoring record this season?

[PEG2K]

"He played LW"
"He's better compared with Alvarez"
"His role is not the main scorer"

Too many excuses are being invented to soften Darwin 's underperforming season, to the point that Al is willing to redefine football and rewrite our history with his pen taker claim.

If only you could find 10% of that enthusiasm to give Endo some credits lol.

[Eeyore]

In a season where so many of our players have suffered long term injuries, yes. Jack is saying that all he wants to see from Nunez is him to be "more available" and that we need our key players playing close to 3000 minutes. Nunez could hardly have been more available this season, he just doesn't get trusted with that many minutes. I'd say you could put Trent and Robbo in your list of key players (although both have had time on the bench due to recovering from injuries) . If you're looking at a spine of a team you basically want starting every week, your record signing should be number 1 on the list. He isn't though, but what gets argued is that if he just had more minutes he'd be scoring x amount of goals. Why is the boss not giving them to him?

I accept your point about how he is used but again I would say your top players, especially goalscorers, should be practically unbenchable, especially in a season where we've been chasing goals late in games. For the money we paid for him and the sacrifices to our all round game, he should be on the level of those players I listed. He's nowhere near it at the moment.

As for this "if he's our go to goalscorer, why isn't he taking penalties then?" argument...come on Al! Were Torres, Owen and Suarez not our main goalscorers?

I must have missed the bit in which Torres, Suarez and Owne had scored 12 penalties from 12.

[Fiasco]

When we got Keita on the pitch he was good. When Keita was in the Liverpool gained more points. The problem was we couldn't get him on the pitch often enough. But this has been done to death.

He was good. No denying that. He just wasn't anything spectacular and didn't live up to the insane promise. And I know there was a mad stat about him having a stupidly high win percentage during his time here but most of that would have been down to the fact he was here when we were mostly at our peak under Klopp, and all of our key/legendary players under Klopp were at their best then. Everything needs to be in context.

It wasn't just his injuries that made him not live up to expectation. His performances weren't good enough to justify the big fee and the year long wait to sign him. I thought he was really slow as well and that could well have been his injuries playing a part so it does go both ways but I can't have this idea that it was just his body letting him down otherwise he would have been outstanding for us.


Anyway, going off topic here. Is Nunez getting a start today do we think?

[Eeyore]

"He played LW"
"He's better compared with Alvarez"
"His role is not the main scorer"

Too many excuses are being invented to soften Darwin 's underperforming season, to the point that Al is willing to redefine football and rewrite our history with his pen taker claim.

If only you could find 10% of that enthusiasm to give Endo some credits lol.

Come on please explain why Salah is on penalties when Nunez and Macca are clearly better penalty takers and have much better records?

[Draex]

Anyway, going off topic here. Is Nunez getting a start today do we think?

He's not the in-form player but Spurs do like to leave space, so I'd start him over Gakpo.

Season is done anyway, let's have some fun with no pressure.