Author Topic: Youth and Under 23 Thread  (Read 12386099 times)

Offline shanklyboy

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6560 on: January 22, 2009, 04:12:19 pm »
My son is at the academy so I see the politics and goings on at very close quarters on an almost daily basis. My take on the situation is that there are far to many people who think they are important and yet do not seem to be acountable to anyone based on results achieved, either scores or player development.

Hamberg talks a good fight yet is hardly ever seen at night, when the non scholars train and has only watched matches maybe 4 or 5 times in 18 months. Heighway while no longer involved still turns up on the occasional evening and quite regularly on Sundays.

The recruitment/scouting in the 9-14 age groups seems to be poor to say the least with the development squad of non signed players in my sons age group being so far behind the signed team as to be embarrassing, as evidenced by a recent game between the teams.

Most parents I speak to would seriously consider a move to the likes of Everton, Bolton, City if the chance came about purely because they know that the situation at the academy is so unstable and the policy is to just bring in foreign kids whether good enough or not.

Do you think it's the early starts the coaches don't like Stanfo?
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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6561 on: January 22, 2009, 04:17:07 pm »
Cheers for that Trousers - was just interested in your views cos you'd looked into it. There's a thread on the structure in the "Off the Pitch" board on the stucture side and who should have input into what by the way...

Brouwer off eh? Good news I reckon - good luck to the kid and I hope he fashions a career for himself over there. I hope this isn't the last, and I hope Brouwer doesn't come back (sorry if anyone thought he was cutting the mustard - no offence).

My son is at the academy so I see the politics and goings on at very close quarters on an almost daily basis. My take on the situation is that there are far to many people who think they are important and yet do not seem to be acountable to anyone based on results achieved, either scores or player development.

Hamberg talks a good fight yet is hardly ever seen at night, when the non scholars train and has only watched matches maybe 4 or 5 times in 18 months. Heighway while no longer involved still turns up on the occasional evening and quite regularly on Sundays.

The recruitment/scouting in the 9-14 age groups seems to be poor to say the least with the development squad of non signed players in my sons age group being so far behind the signed team as to be embarrassing, as evidenced by a recent game between the teams.

Most parents I speak to would seriously consider a move to the likes of Everton, Bolton, City if the chance came about purely because they know that the situation at the academy is so unstable and the policy is to just bring in foreign kids whether good enough or not.

Stanfo - that's brilliant, thanks. Makes for horrendous reading. I'm gonna post that in the 'quality posts' thread it that's OK with you, because people need to know.

Offline Stanfo

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6562 on: January 22, 2009, 04:18:35 pm »
It only seems to be Hamberg who has any trouble getting up in the morning. I have seen the interview mentioned above on LFC TV where he says he is involved in training all age groups and frankly that is bollocks. Heighway used to get involved in lots of training sessions at night and knew most of the boys names, not the new regime. A certain high ranking member of the recruitment team doesn't even acknowledge parents with a fucking nod.

Offline Greg

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6563 on: January 22, 2009, 04:27:08 pm »
Very interesting Stanfo. Didn't realise that Hamberg was so badly thought of.

Changing the subject a bit - what are people's opinions on David Amoo?

Thought he looked good against Rovers. Only saw the highlights on the telly but he looked like a great option for the right hand side. Can he make it?

Offline alltalknotrousers

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6564 on: January 22, 2009, 04:43:12 pm »
bringing in gary macallister as part of the coaching staff would be a grand option - anyone think he'd go for it?
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Offline shanklyboy

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6565 on: January 22, 2009, 04:54:29 pm »
It only seems to be Hamberg who has any trouble getting up in the morning. I have seen the interview mentioned above on LFC TV where he says he is involved in training all age groups and frankly that is bollocks. Heighway used to get involved in lots of training sessions at night and knew most of the boys names, not the new regime. A certain high ranking member of the recruitment team doesn't even acknowledge parents with a fucking nod.

Yes I saw that.
I just wonder if he's still pushing for the U12 - 16 elite squad......for want of a better word?
If the U9 -14 group are split, have you noticed if that is always done on ability or has age been used?
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Offline Greg

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6566 on: January 22, 2009, 05:04:56 pm »
bringing in gary macallister as part of the coaching staff would be a grand option - anyone think he'd go for it?

Maybe he would.

Is he a good coach though? Or are you suggesting him just cos you like him?

Offline zabadoh

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6567 on: January 22, 2009, 08:47:23 pm »
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Offline rogermoore

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6568 on: January 22, 2009, 10:06:16 pm »
Wondering if these clips about the youth have been posted yet:

Highlights with Astrit A., Marvin Pourie (gone), Ecclestone, Pepper, et al.

Pepper and Dalla Valle


Forgot about the quality of Astrid.  Looked on .tv and they say he is still at the club but I thought he was out on loan.  They also say we will continue to use him and let other clubs watch him but i have not seen his name mentioned once.  Is he still with us or out on loan?  I heard he had gone one way or another.  Blackburn maybe?

Offline gazzathered

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6569 on: January 22, 2009, 10:26:36 pm »
YNWA

Offline Mr_Morosoph

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6570 on: January 22, 2009, 11:57:53 pm »
Martin Kelly has been called up to the England u-19s for the friendly against Spain on Tuesday 10 February 2009, well done Martin.

http://www.thefa.com/England/U19s/NewsAndFeatures/Postings/squad_named_spain.htm
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Offline b_joseph

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6571 on: January 23, 2009, 12:09:44 am »
Martin Kelly has been called up to the England u-19s for the friendly against Spain on Tuesday 10 February 2009, well done Martin.

http://www.thefa.com/England/U19s/NewsAndFeatures/Postings/squad_named_spain.htm
Awesome news. 4 years from now, he'll be a regular for the Main National team.

Offline b_joseph

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6572 on: January 23, 2009, 12:16:28 am »
.

Changing the subject a bit - what are people's opinions on David Amoo?

Thought he looked good against Rovers. Only saw the highlights on the telly but he looked like a great option for the right hand side. Can he make it?
Its going to be hard to tell with Amoo. Look at what happened with Astrit, most people thought he would get some kind of a contract and he didnt.

IMO, Amoo is probably 50-50. I hope he does get a contract though because he could be a pretty good winger with time.

Offline Pankaka

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6573 on: January 23, 2009, 12:30:48 am »
Its going to be hard to tell with Amoo. Look at what happened with Astrit, most people thought he would get some kind of a contract and he didnt.

IMO, Amoo is probably 50-50. I hope he does get a contract though because he could be a pretty good winger with time.

Echo.

He is someone who has the ability and physique, it's now upto him to put the effort in himself and carry on what he's doing. He has earned a contract in my opinion but who knows.

He was highly rated by us when we bought him. I think I heard someone say that he was close for playing for Millwalls 1st team before we took him.
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Offline shanklyboy

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6574 on: January 23, 2009, 01:19:37 am »
Very interesting Stanfo. Didn't realise that Hamberg was so badly thought of.

Changing the subject a bit - what are people's opinions on David Amoo?

Thought he looked good against Rovers. Only saw the highlights on the telly but he looked like a great option for the right hand side. Can he make it?

He's only been at the club for just over a year so I think he'll be given a bit more time to show what he can do in a settled position.Maybe get a few run outs in the reserves.

He's got all the qualities needed but just has to get a bit more consistent, which is easier said than done at his age, but I really like him as a player.
There's not many in the youth leagues I've seen that are too far ahead of him.

Can he make it? If we only knew the answer to that eh?
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Offline Maldini

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6575 on: January 23, 2009, 03:59:50 am »
He's ridiculously quick, maybe the quickest player I've seen who can control the ball while running. He's a bit raw technically, but his pace and his eye for goal mean he's always going to stand a chance of making it. I read about how Aston Villa nearly cut Agbonlahor when he was 16/17 because he was so limited technically, but the head coach took a chance on him because of his searing pace and they managed to coach him to become the player he is now, hopefully we can do the same with Amoo. At the moment he's a bit like Cisse was when he played on the right for us, although with a bit more control over the ball. I hope he gets a run with the reserves this season, he really deserves it.

Offline redwood32

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6576 on: January 23, 2009, 08:33:05 am »
You need to have as wide and deep a talent base as you can afford to ensure you have a talented and effective management team (the 1st team in footie terms).

....

JP-65, of course you can have too many kids. You even admitted the reason why in your first sentence, then went on to negate it. Key part of the sentence is afford to, and I'm not talking about price.

Their are three important constraints (off the top of my head, there are of course more) when it comes to developing talent; available match time, available training time and the number of coaches. You need to look at these constraints, and compare the number of lads we have in our reserves to what the rest of the competition have. I've gone through the numbers previously a month or two ago, somewhere here on RAWK. Search around and you will find. Off the top of my head, we had about 15 more lads signed up for the reserves.

We do not have more matches scheduled than the likes of City and the Mancs. However, we have an extra 11 plus 4 extra reserves. We could literally field another squad.

We don't have 150% of the reserve team coaching staff of City or the Mancs. So if we have roughly the same amount of coaches, their time is being spread thinner over a larger number of lads. We're the only team I can think of with such a large reserve squad, yet we don't have a larger than normal coaching staff. Unless we're on to something everyone else isn't, dare I say it having too many lads could be detrimental to their progression.

Having too many lads cuts down on training time, which is somewhat related to the coaches point. The more lads you have in training, the less time they will have to train under supervision. It's similar to cutting an orange up into 22 pieces or 37. Although they're split when training, the logic is still similar.

I guess my point summed up is this; you can have too many kids in the system, because every system has limits and constraints. It's exactly the same as the classroom and the teacher, something all of us have been through. You throw 100 kids in the class with one teacher, you'll have a hard time teaching them anything as your resources will be stretched. Now if you try 20 kids, you'll be far more successful.

I understand there is more than one way to train young lads, and I'm not saying your way is wrong. I'm of a different train of thought, and wanted to throw these points out their. The real question is whether we're pushing the constraints. Every single problem has constraints, so the Reserve team size is no different. I believe we are pushing these constraints, others will certainly disagree.

As for your "pyramid" example, I agree. However I think the "pyramid" should start in the Academy, which is where it usually does. Our Reserve squad is very large though, the largest I've seen, and we certainly don't have a "pyramid" shape. Off the top of my head I think we have roughly 17 lads signed on in the Academy + the 3 older age lads. That's far less than the Reserves squad, so we basically have the shape of a snake after a nice big meal. Clogged in the middle. The kids not signed on and the younger age groups obviously push the Academy numbers above the Reserves.

By the way, the reserve numbers are something like 10 out on loan, 28 in the squad, 3 over-aged lads playing for the Academy, and the likes of N'Gog, Insua and El Zhar who don't train with the Reserves (so not adding to that constraint) but occasionally take away potential match time from the Reserves. Numbers could be off by one or two in places.

Offline alltalknotrousers

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6577 on: January 23, 2009, 08:33:51 am »
Maybe he would.

Is he a good coach though? Or are you suggesting him just cos you like him?

well, yeah it's partly because of his playing pedigree that he springs to mind, but also his general demeanour and i've heard good reports about his coaching abilities. my brother's a cov fan and he was gutted when he had to leave for personal reasons.
that cheater hicks thinks we're weetabix. he's gonna milk us till we're mush.

Offline Rafadom

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6578 on: January 23, 2009, 08:37:13 am »
Martin Kelly has been called up to the England u-19s for the friendly against Spain on Tuesday 10 February 2009, well done Martin.

http://www.thefa.com/England/U19s/NewsAndFeatures/Postings/squad_named_spain.htm

Thats great news and hopefully he can continue, he looks like he could very well be a hugely promising player but you never know, but he could be our english backbone.

Pace is one thing he does lack though his reading of the game will really have to develop

Offline hassinator

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6579 on: January 23, 2009, 11:48:39 am »
well, yeah it's partly because of his playing pedigree that he springs to mind, but also his general demeanour and i've heard good reports about his coaching abilities. my brother's a cov fan and he was gutted when he had to leave for personal reasons.

i think the debate over rafa's involvement settles on wether its a good idea for a manager who may leave can take control of a club at all levels.

similarly is it right that the academy is set up with anything other than the current first team in mind.

if we got gary mac into head things up i feel we'd have a former player with all the right attributes in his playing style and demeanour to work WITH rafa to make things better all round in the way that liam brady seems to do for arsenal.

i think the only person i would consider better in this role is kenny but i'm guessing he may not have the time to commit as he gets older.

Offline Tyler Durden

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6580 on: January 23, 2009, 12:06:16 pm »
JP-65, of course you can have too many kids. You even admitted the reason why in your first sentence, then went on to negate it. Key part of the sentence is afford to, and I'm not talking about price.

Their are three important constraints (off the top of my head, there are of course more) when it comes to developing talent; available match time, available training time and the number of coaches. You need to look at these constraints, and compare the number of lads we have in our reserves to what the rest of the competition have. I've gone through the numbers previously a month or two ago, somewhere here on RAWK. Search around and you will find. Off the top of my head, we had about 15 more lads signed up for the reserves.

We do not have more matches scheduled than the likes of City and the Mancs. However, we have an extra 11 plus 4 extra reserves. We could literally field another squad.

We don't have 150% of the reserve team coaching staff of City or the Mancs. So if we have roughly the same amount of coaches, their time is being spread thinner over a larger number of lads. We're the only team I can think of with such a large reserve squad, yet we don't have a larger than normal coaching staff. Unless we're on to something everyone else isn't, dare I say it having too many lads could be detrimental to their progression.

Having too many lads cuts down on training time, which is somewhat related to the coaches point. The more lads you have in training, the less time they will have to train under supervision. It's similar to cutting an orange up into 22 pieces or 37. Although they're split when training, the logic is still similar.

I guess my point summed up is this; you can have too many kids in the system, because every system has limits and constraints. It's exactly the same as the classroom and the teacher, something all of us have been through. You throw 100 kids in the class with one teacher, you'll have a hard time teaching them anything as your resources will be stretched. Now if you try 20 kids, you'll be far more successful.

I understand there is more than one way to train young lads, and I'm not saying your way is wrong. I'm of a different train of thought, and wanted to throw these points out their. The real question is whether we're pushing the constraints. Every single problem has constraints, so the Reserve team size is no different. I believe we are pushing these constraints, others will certainly disagree.

As for your "pyramid" example, I agree. However I think the "pyramid" should start in the Academy, which is where it usually does. Our Reserve squad is very large though, the largest I've seen, and we certainly don't have a "pyramid" shape. Off the top of my head I think we have roughly 17 lads signed on in the Academy + the 3 older age lads. That's far less than the Reserves squad, so we basically have the shape of a snake after a nice big meal. Clogged in the middle. The kids not signed on and the younger age groups obviously push the Academy numbers above the Reserves.

By the way, the reserve numbers are something like 10 out on loan, 28 in the squad, 3 over-aged lads playing for the Academy, and the likes of N'Gog, Insua and El Zhar who don't train with the Reserves (so not adding to that constraint) but occasionally take away potential match time from the Reserves. Numbers could be off by one or two in places.
Maybe if Rafa gets control of the academy what you describe can then be implemented, where by the group is whittled down as they get older, at the moment he has brought them all if at reserve level because that's as far down as his control probably goes.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2009, 12:08:26 pm by Tyler Durden »

Offline Strawberry Fields

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6581 on: January 23, 2009, 01:29:01 pm »
I talked about this issue before and I agree with redwood32.

People think that developing young players is like lottery - the more you buy the greater chance you'll win. It isn't.

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6582 on: January 23, 2009, 01:45:32 pm »
JP-65, of course you can have too many kids. You even admitted the reason why in your first sentence, then went on to negate it.

JP's first sentence might read that way redwood but it's actually in response to this (and specifically the Raspberry Paddocks take on all youth development work at LFC:
http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=204689.msg5285587#msg5285587

I don't think the two of you are disagreeing here - JP's saying each player needs a viable development plan, and you're saying we don't have enough staff in place or available playing time secured to make viable development plans happen.

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6583 on: January 23, 2009, 01:48:51 pm »


hey redwood i have to disagree.  rafa doesn't have control of the academy - his contractual bone of contention - and the suggestion is that he doesn't think they are producing the talent we need.

one way of seeing the situation is that the pyramid isn't working from below - the base of talent in our youngest teams isn't good enough to play on to the reserves let alone first team -  so he needs to expand the base at melwood and hope to produce his key talent from there.

i agree this is not ideal and some people have eloquently made the case for how this can trample over the careers of young footballers but ultimately its about producing for the first team and given the constraints he is working under i agree with his current policy.

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6584 on: January 23, 2009, 01:54:05 pm »
I talked about this issue before and I agree with redwood32.

People think that developing young players is like lottery - the more you buy the greater chance you'll win. It isn't.

oh but it is - or at least it has been at liverpool. how many 'next big things actually play on to play for the liverpool first team?  to make it here you really need to be amongst the very best in the world and whatever way you slice it our academy hasn't produced a first team regular since gerrard and carragher - clearly something needs to be done as that kind of hiatus doesn't spring up at barcelona or madrid.

does anyone remember cherno samba?

rafa has focused on bringing in top drawer talent at an age we can make the players association trained and we have yet to see the full fruits of his labor.



Offline JP-65

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6585 on: January 23, 2009, 01:55:25 pm »
JP's first sentence might read that way redwood but it's actually in response to this (and specifically the Raspberry Paddocks take on all youth development work at LFC:
http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=204689.msg5285587#msg5285587

I don't think the two of you are disagreeing here - JP's saying each player needs a viable development plan, and you're saying we don't have enough staff in place or available playing time secured to make viable development plans happen.

And all of those constraints are all manageable with the proper level of resources, focus and commitment....but it requires a footie organization to 'think out of the box', which is not something that naturally happens in the football club world.

Most 'problems' are solvable if the organization has the will, energy and talent to take them on.

As to SF's latest "pearl of wisdom", I disagree 100%, the more resources applied to a problem, the greater the probability of success.  The more resources applied intelligently, the even greater probability of success.  This isn't 'theory', it's real world practice and experience.

Offline the_red_pill

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6586 on: January 23, 2009, 02:40:41 pm »
Wondering if these clips about the youth have been posted yet:

Highlights with Astrit A., Marvin Pourie (gone), Ecclestone, Pepper, et al.

Pepper and Dalla Valle

Ajdarevic IS quality. Too bad he's got a stinking attitude. Woulda loved to see Berger v2.0 in red, but hey- you're off, 'dude'. We don't fuck around. No-one is bigger than our club.
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In such a sumptuous festival of shite, I wouldn't be so quick to pick a winner..

But he'd make the shortlist

Offline carra1892

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6587 on: January 23, 2009, 03:03:22 pm »
Ajdarevic IS quality. Too bad he's got a stinking attitude. Woulda loved to see Berger v2.0 in red, but hey- you're off, 'dude'. We don't fuck around. No-one is bigger than our club.

A stinking attitude? And you know how? Because some of the posters on rawk say so? Come on, you were not there on the football field everyday so you can't judge about his attitude...
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Offline the_red_pill

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6588 on: January 23, 2009, 03:36:31 pm »
A stinking attitude? And you know how? Because some of the posters on rawk say so? Come on, you were not there on the football field everyday so you can't judge about his attitude...
Lots have been said about his attitude and that he feels he should be playing at a higher level. There were rumours that he took a swipe at the football being played at the club. Now in all that time, I haven't heard/read anything in favour of the lad with regard to all this. Nevertheless, one must make a decision sooner or later. My decision on this matter is made with that in mind.

I would like to know the other side of the coin though and if you know something, I'd appreciate it.
"Some listen to understand. Others listen to respond."
"A fool does not delight in understanding, but only in revealing his own mind."
In such a sumptuous festival of shite, I wouldn't be so quick to pick a winner..

But he'd make the shortlist

Offline carra1892

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6589 on: January 23, 2009, 03:46:57 pm »
Lots have been said about his attitude and that he feels he should be playing at a higher level. There were rumours that he took a swipe at the football being played at the club. Now in all that time, I haven't heard/read anything in favour of the lad with regard to all this. Nevertheless, one must make a decision sooner or later. My decision on this matter is made with that in mind.

I would like to know the other side of the coin though and if you know something, I'd appreciate it.

I don't know anything about it, but saying his attitude isn't right isn't fair to say because you can't know it. I do remember him saying he didn't like the football being played at Liverpool with long balls or something like that, but that is his opinion. If he likes to play on the ground more then he has the right to say so, just an opinion. I mean, there wasn't a coach at Liverpool saying he has a bad attitude or something like that, don't think they will say that, but judging him on what some posters heard others say isn't good to base opinions on I think. Of course he could have a bad attitide, but we can't know that.
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Offline Strawberry Fields

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6590 on: January 23, 2009, 04:19:24 pm »
hassinator -
There's the problem. You're thinking about probability and not about conditions.

Let's compare this to a classroom in school.
You're thinking that if there'll be more students in a classroom the probability that at least one student will get straight A's will be bigger.
While in reality the less students there are the more chances of success thanks to better attention during the learning process.

In football 'better attention' means two things:
1. The coach telling a player where and how he can improve. This happens during training.
2. Pitch time to acquire knowledge based on experience and to execute the the things the coach guided the player to improve upon while coming up against other players from other teams.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2009, 04:24:46 pm by Strawberry Fields »

Offline Uhoh AureliOs

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6591 on: January 23, 2009, 04:27:33 pm »
"- I didn't came to Liverpool to play with the reserves but to play with the seniors. Many says that I should stay and give it another year. But there is nothing more for me to develop in the reserves," tells Astrit for the HN-sport.

That's his attitude. And that's why he's being moved on. But no one will take him.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2009, 04:30:50 pm by Uhoh AureliOs »

Offline hassinator

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6592 on: January 23, 2009, 04:29:58 pm »
hassinator -
There's the problem. You're thinking about probability and not about conditions.

Let's compare this to a classroom in school.
You're thinking that if there'll be more students in a classroom the probability that at least one student will get straight A's will be bigger.
While in reality the less students there are the more chances of success thanks to better attention during the learning process.

In football 'better attention' means two things:
1. The coach telling a player where and how he can improve. This happens during training.
2. Pitch time to acquire knowledge based on experience and to execute the the things the coach guided the player to improve upon.

but we're looking for something more than a straight A student who makes it to university; we're trying to unearth another genius to go with nando and stevie g.  an average player isn't going to turn into a superstar just because he trains hard; gets to bed early and eats his greens not can we expect ability to be coached into the players.   we are trying to corral the very best talent and then let them compete for their opportunity as talent is one thing and mental toughness quite another.

if you look at the team under heighway they were efficient; worked well as a unit and indeed one some trophies but i don't think any of that generation will set the world alight no matter what club they end up at.  there is no doubting heighway's committment to his pupils and indeed his passion for the job but the bottom line is that not enough talent was coming through.

this 'care in the community' approach seems to still hold sway at the academy and as i see it that is what rafa objects too.  if real madrid and barcelona can consistently generate top drawer talent and we can't then its pretty simple to see that we aren't doing as good a job as they are.  rafa is seeking to change it and i think we're on the cusp of seeing his practices turn into real results.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2009, 12:58:58 pm by hassinator »

Offline gollne

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6593 on: January 23, 2009, 04:30:00 pm »
"- I didn't came to Liverpool to play with the reserves but to play with the seniors. Many says that I should stay and give it another year. But there is nothing more for me to develop in the reserves, tells Astrit for the HN-sport."

That's his attitude. And that's why he's being moved on. But no one will take him.

Cocky fucking swede.
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Offline hassinator

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6594 on: January 23, 2009, 04:31:40 pm »
Cocky fucking swede.

yep cocky but young and talented.  i was hoping he would knuckle down and play for a place but he hasn't so what can you do?

shut the door on your way out astrit...

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6595 on: January 23, 2009, 04:34:41 pm »
hassinator -
There's the problem. You're thinking about probability and not about conditions.

Let's compare this to a classroom in school.
You're thinking that if there'll be more students in a classroom the probability that at least one student will get straight A's will be bigger.
While in reality the less students there are the more chances of success thanks to better attention during the learning process.

In football 'better attention' means two things:
1. The coach telling a player where and how he can improve. This happens during training.
2. Pitch time to acquire knowledge based on experience and to execute the the things the coach guided the player to improve upon while coming up against other players from other teams.

But there's the problem, you're thinking 'in the box', what if there's not just one classroom, but several?  Now you've got more students, with the same amount of attention, and you've just multiplied your chances of getting the "A" student.

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6596 on: January 23, 2009, 05:17:03 pm »
but we're looking for something more than a straight A student who makes it to university; we're trying to unearth another genius to go with nando and stevie g.  an average player isn't going to turn into a superstar just because he trains hard; gets to bed early and eats his greens not can we expect ability to be coached into the players.   we are trying to coral the very best talent and then let them compete for their opportunity as talent is one thing and mental toughness quite another.

if you look at the team under heighway they were efficient; worked well as a unit and indeed one some trophies but i don't think any of that generation will set the world alight no matter what club they end up at.  there is no doubting heighway's committment to his pupils and indeed his passion for the job but the bottom line is that not enough talent was coming through.

this 'care in the community' approach seems to still hold sway at the academy and as i see it that is what rafa objects too.  if real madrid and barcelona can consistently generate top drawer talent and we can't then its pretty simple to see that we aren't doing as good a job as they are.  rafa is seeking to change it and i think we're on the cusp of seeing his practices turn into real results.


You "unearth" geniuses in two ways, 1. by a good local, national and global scouting network or 2. by luck.

My nan could be in charge of our youth setup and if a maradona comes through the ranks, he'll make it as a top class professional.  A good youth set up, shouldn't be looking to find the next Gerrard.  Gerrards are few and far between and with that natural ability will probably make it, finding Gerrards is the job of the scouting department. 

A good youth set up should be looking to nurture the next Carragher or Gary Neville.  Players with limited natural ability who have, through coaching and detemination, been moulded into excellent players.

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6597 on: January 23, 2009, 05:28:22 pm »
But there's the problem, you're thinking 'in the box', what if there's not just one classroom, but several?  Now you've got more students, with the same amount of attention, and you've just multiplied your chances of getting the "A" student.
I'm not thinking in the box, I was comparing the reserves to one classroom.
Unless you can find a way for us to have several reserves teams (with more coaches and fixtures) you can't talk about more than one classroom.

but we're looking for something more than a straight A student who makes it to university; we're trying to unearth another genius to go with nando and stevie g.  an average player isn't going to turn into a superstar just because he trains hard; gets to bed early and eats his greens not can we expect ability to be coached into the players.   we are trying to coral the very best talent and then let them compete for their opportunity as talent is one thing and mental toughness quite another.

if you look at the team under heighway they were efficient; worked well as a unit and indeed one some trophies but i don't think any of that generation will set the world alight no matter what club they end up at.  there is no doubting heighway's committment to his pupils and indeed his passion for the job but the bottom line is that not enough talent was coming through.

this 'care in the community' approach seems to still hold sway at the academy and as i see it that is what rafa objects too.  if real madrid and barcelona can consistently generate top drawer talent and we can't then its pretty simple to see that we aren't doing as good a job as they are.  rafa is seeking to change it and i think we're on the cusp of seeing his practices turn into real results.

We all would love to have a new Gerrard and Torres but that's the dream scenario. The real one is to stop spending money on average players and instead promoting them, the ones who are good enough to be squad players (like the Oshea's, Brown's and Fletcher's of this world). The money we'll save will help us focus on buying more quality players. If one or maybe two coming through could save us bigger money because they will be top quality then that's just a bonus.

In Barcelona Athletic (reserves) there are 23 players. In Barceloa Youth A (U-18's) there are 21 players. On-loan there are 2 players. A total of 46 players.
In Liverpool's reserves there are 28 players. In Liverpool's U-18's there are 20 players. On-loan there are 11 players. A total of 59 players.
The difference is 13 players.
Barcelona Athletic have 38 official games in their fixture list this season, Liverpool reserves have 20.
If you can't see the differences and the problem, well then...
« Last Edit: January 23, 2009, 05:44:08 pm by Strawberry Fields »

Offline JP-65

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6598 on: January 23, 2009, 05:50:40 pm »
I'm not thinking in the box, I was comparing the reserves to one classroom.
Unless you can find a way for us to have several reserves teams (with more coaches and fixtures) you can't talk about more than one classroom.

We all would love to have a new Gerrard and Torres but that's the dream scenario. The real one is to stop spending money on average players and instead promoting them, the ones who are good enough to be squad players (like the Oshea's, Brown's and Fletcher's of this world). The money we'll save will help us focus on buying more quality players. If one or maybe two coming through could save us bigger money because they will be top quality then that's just a bonus.

In Barcelona Athletic (reserves) there are 23 players. In Barceloa Youth A (U-18's) there are 21 players. On-loan there are 2 players. A total of 46 players.
In Liverpool's reserves there are 28 players. In Liverpool's U-18's there are 20 players. On-loan there are 11 players. A total of 59 players.
The difference is 13 players.
Barcelona Athletic have 38 official games in their fixture list this season, Liverpool reserves have 20.
If you can't see the differences and the problem, well then...

Your reply is the definition of "in the box", "out of the box" thinking would find a way to have more than one squad of players.

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Re: So what are these Youth/Reserve Lads like?
« Reply #6599 on: January 23, 2009, 05:58:57 pm »
Your reply is the definition of "in the box", "out of the box" thinking would find a way to have more than one squad of players.
I will return to this...

There's the problem. You're thinking about probability and not about conditions.
If we don't have enough fixtures (about half the number of games with more players than others) why do we NEED more players than we can accommodate?
That's not thinking 'in the box', that's thinking realistically and practically.