Topic: Sub lost visiting the Titanic.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

They'd lose consciousness with the latter, instead of being agonisingly crushed to death but then at least it would be quick.

If they have started to panic then they may have a lot less oxygen than being predicted.

At least they'd be able to get a quick orgy in. If it's true that they don't have a distress beacon and even worse cannot open it up from the inside, they could be floating around the ocean for decades before being found.

[Zizou]

Where's Thunderbird 4 when you need it?

[Peabee]

At least they'd be able to get a quick orgy in. If it's true that they don't have a distress beacon and even worse cannot open it up from the inside, they could be floating around the ocean for decades before being found.

Yeah, the North Atlantic is 40 million km^2, but the vessel is about 6.7m long by 2.8 wide, so about 19 m^2 from above. Needle in a haystack. that's about 1 in 2000 billion.

[Red-Soldier]

I was saying this to my mate earlier:

The Guardian view on danger at sea: looking out for all those in peril
Editorial

The contrast between the frantic hunt for a missing submersible and the failure to save migrants drowning in the Mediterranean is illuminating

A massive operation is under way to find and save a stricken vessel and its passengers. As time passes, anxious families and friends wait with growing fear. The US coastguard, Canadian armed forces and commercial vessels are all hunting for the Titan submersible, which has gone missing with five aboard on a dive to the wreck of the Titanic in the north Atlantic. The UK’s Ministry of Defence is also monitoring the situation.

It is hard to think of a starker contrast with the response to a fishing boat which sank in the Mediterranean last week with an estimated 750 people, including children, packed onboard. Only about 100 survived, making this one of the deadliest disasters in the Mediterranean. Greece and the EU blame people smugglers, who overcrowd boats and abuse those aboard them. But both have profound questions to answer about their own role in such disasters. Activists say authorities were repeatedly warned of the danger this boat faced, hours before it went down, but failed to act.

Greece has said that the vessel was moving steadily, was not at risk, and that passengers refused help; survivors and tracking data paint a very different picture. The Greek coastguard’s record includes forcible and dangerous pushbacks of asylum seekers, with a recent video showing a family including small children being set adrift on a raft. Frontex, the EU’s border and coast guard, is also – rightly – under growing scrutiny.

Ursula von der Leyen, the European Commission president, has praised Greece as the bloc’s “shield” against migration – not only applauding its role, but using the language of combat and self-defence. Josep Borrell, the EU’s foreign policy chief, last year described Europe as a “garden” and most of the world as a “jungle” which “could invade” it unless there was greater engagement. Following the backlash, he said he was sorry “if some were offended” and insisted he was referring to the rule of law in contrast with lawlessness. On the most generous interpretation, he showed a startling ignorance of the implications of such language. On a more cynical one, he pandered to it.

The rhetoric of a hostile world’s encroachment upon Europe is used in part to try to stem the advance of the far right, showing that mainstream politicians and officials are not ignoring the issues it exploits to win support. But this contributes to an environment in which there is a growing sense of an “us”, living in safety and relative comfort, menaced by a “them” seeking the same things. Most of those on board the boat last week are believed to have been Pakistani nationals, who had grown desperate as the country’s economic situation deteriorated.

“Migrant” has become a word that disguises rather than illuminates the individuals behind the label – humans with the usual struggles, hopes and fears for themselves and their families, loved as dearly as any others, and as deserving of dignity, safety and concern. That mass drownings have become so common – more than 25,000 people have died or gone missing in the Mediterranean since 2014 – is shameful in itself. What is worse is that these disasters have come to be seen as almost normal. Planes and boats are scrambled to save a handful of people who took a risk for an adventure, while children and adults in imminent danger wait until catastrophe strikes.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/20/the-guardian-view-on-danger-at-sea-looking-out-for-all-those-in-peril

[Statto Red]

Yeah, if anything, Cameron's film put me off it.  But I've always been fascinated with the story of it - plus it helps that it was built in Ireland.

Agreed, i'm fascinated by the Titanic, the story of & how it sank, it carried Liverpool name as Liverpool was the port of registration, but Cameron's movie is overhyped dirge.

 

[DangerScouse]

One or two vile comments here which are bang out of order. Hopefully they are found safe and well. Their poor families.

[TSC]

Fucking hell, that looks like a film prop, not a real submersible.

Thought it was a piss take when someone posted something yesterday about how this machine was put together. 

If in anyway true then Darwin’s law is present here.  Bit like those selfie disasters where folk plunge to their deaths from heights when attempting to take a photo.

Get the mecanno and joystick out and down we plunge.

Hoping for a massive miracle now.

[TepidT2O]

One or two vile comments here which are bang out of order. Hopefully they are found safe and well. Their poor families.

They will all be dead sadly

But there’s good and bad in all of us, rich, poor, young, old….

And for all these fallacious comments about the tragedy in Greece? If there were 70 hours to save hundreds of people, there would be a huge response.

[Party Phil]

I was saying this to my mate earlier:

The Guardian view on danger at sea: looking out for all those in peril
Editorial

The contrast between the frantic hunt for a missing submersible and the failure to save migrants drowning in the Mediterranean is illuminating


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/20/the-guardian-view-on-danger-at-sea-looking-out-for-all-those-in-peril

See this is more in line with my way of thinking, as opposed to the Tory / Daily Mail comments earlier.

I know I should empathise with all those lost at sea but it's kinda hard to care one iota about people who prefer to waste money on sightseeing trips to the Titanic wreck when they probably have enough free cash to save thousands of lives per year in the Mediterranean Sea. Lives of people who might actually contribute to our society in Europe and even do something valuable for humanity, as opposed to making millions from the UK before fucking off to a tax haven and renting out planet destroying private jets.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Titanic submarine safety worries got OceanGate worker fired in 2018

[AndyInVA]

According to David Pogue, a CBS journalist who travelled on the Titan last year, the submersible has a total of seven back-up systems to return to the surface, including sand bags and an inflatable balloon. One system is designed to work even if everyone is unconscious, he said.

[BlackandWhitePaul]

Who knew a reconditioned septic tank steered with a Playstation II joystick could be unsafe?   

[Clint Eastwood]

Hoping for a miracle but the outlook is pretty poor. Still hasn’t been found and even if it is found, it will take just as long to salvage.

Hope a lot is learned from this. The video of the CEO pointing out all of the simple parts they used to build it is unnerving looking back. Proudly stating that the submarine only has one button. There’s a reason why commercial aircraft still have lots of buttons and pilots aren’t just given an iPad.

[JerseyKloppite]

Some of the comments on here are quite tasteless. There will be a time and a place for comparing the response to this to the response to other naval tragedies. It's a pretty grim situation and in all likelihood those on board have either died or will die, including a 19 year old. This isn't the time to make light of that.

[Peabee]

Hoping for a miracle but the outlook is pretty poor. Still hasn’t been found and even if it is found, it will take just as long to salvage.

Hope a lot is learned from this. The video of the CEO pointing out all of the simple parts they used to build it is unnerving looking back. Proudly stating that the submarine only has one button. There’s a reason why commercial aircraft still have lots of buttons and pilots aren’t just given an iPad.

It looks like a tin can with a window compared with the proper submersible research vessels. They're doing it for profit. They'll probably just add a second button if they can get a refund from Amazon.

[rob1966]

It depends. If the waiver neglects to mention they're using a vehicle that isn't certified, then to my non-legal mind the wavier immediately collapses.

Going on a trip like this is fraught with danger. It's natural to accept there is a risk of death, but it is the operator's job to minimise that risk. If they have played down the deficiencies of the machine, it's safety apparatus etc, then I'd say the surivivors or the families of the deceased (should it come to that) have a case that the travellers would not have signed the waiver if they had been made fully aware of the situation.

People do questionable stuff all the time. People often try to stay the night on Hilbre island for example, and often the coastguard have to come out and get them. That costs taxpayers money, mounting a rescue that shouldn't need to be made - because people took an unnecessary risk. Okay, the risk is marginal compared to diving on the Titanic, and they're doing it illegally. I'm just pointing out that you don't have to be a billionaire to consciously take unnecessary risks that can get you into a tight spot.

As I posted earlier, according to Mike Reiss, the waiver tells them three times on page one alone that they could die, and continually lists the ways you can die throughout the waiver and David Pogue of CBS says the waiver explicitly states that the vessel is not approved by any regulatory body. He also reckoned stuff like the lights were bought from an online hardware store.

How anybody thinks that going down to a depth of 13,000ft into the ocean in an unapproved vessel is a good idea, I'd never know. As I said earlier, it took me two minutes to find a company called Triton, which manufacturers proper submersibles, the BBC used a Triton 3000 to film programmes like Blue Planet II, Galapagos and other Attenborough shows, that's capable of going to over 3,000ft, then they have the 13000/2 Titanic, the model that has filmed the Titanic and is rated at over 14,000ft and they say that no matter what happens, it will return itself to the surface in an emergency. Every sub they build is certified by a third party. If you are going to do such extreme stuff as going down to the Titanic, you either do it properly, or you don't bother and you certainly don't do it in a cobbled together piece of shit.

[gazzalfc]

I say this with as much compassion that I can. Unless they are found at a salvageable depth within the next 30 odd hours of oxygen they have left (though it wont be the oxygen loss they gets them but the build up of carbon dioxide in that capsule), I hope the sub imploded or suffered a catastrophic failure that killed them instantly. It's a horrible way to go and wouldn't wish it on anyone.

There is a whole other path to go down after this comparing it to other 'explorer experiences' like Everest, The north/south pole, edge of space etc. The commercialisation of such endeavours of the human capability and putting a price on it is just insane. But that will be what legal waivers are for. Nothing like this can ever be 'safe'. And I think that is what these people want. They are 'rich' enough that they are safe in everything they ever do. They have a the mansions, cars, holidays and never have to think about a 'normal life'. These are what makes them feel alive

But right now it's hoping that they are found safe and well in time

[redbyrdz]

Wish there was as much time, money, and compassion for those poor people who drown in the mediteranian in their hundreds and thousands every year.

[Red Beret]

As I posted earlier, according to Mike Reiss, the waiver tells them three times on page one alone that they could die, and continually lists the ways you can die throughout the waiver and David Pogue of CBS says the waiver explicitly states that the vessel is not approved by any regulatory body. He also reckoned stuff like the lights were bought from an online hardware store.

How anybody thinks that going down to a depth of 13,000ft into the ocean in an unapproved vessel is a good idea, I'd never know. As I said earlier, it took me two minutes to find a company called Triton, which manufacturers proper submersibles, the BBC used a Triton 3000 to film programmes like Blue Planet II, Galapagos and other Attenborough shows, that's capable of going to over 3,000ft, then they have the 13000/2 Titanic, the model that has filmed the Titanic and is rated at over 14,000ft and they say that no matter what happens, it will return itself to the surface in an emergency. Every sub they build is certified by a third party. If you are going to do such extreme stuff as going down to the Titanic, you either do it properly, or you don't bother and you certainly don't do it in a cobbled together piece of shit.

Well I know I wouldn't set foot in such a contraption. It's mind boggling it was even allowed to be used. There has to be some glaring hole in regulations that such a "vessel" could be just cobbled together and allowed to operate. How many dives has this thing made, does anybody know?

This isn't like the 1930s with entrepreneurs experimenting with a new technology. Diving to the Titanic is not something that can or should be done on the cheap.

The final irony now would be for the sub to be found washed ashore someplace, completely intact; having successfully surfaced, but the occupants unable to escape because the hatch was bolted shut from the outside. I can't imagine how heartbreaking it will be if they've had time to write final letters to loved ones in the event they are found.

[gazzalfc]

Well I know I wouldn't set foot in such a contraption. It's mind boggling it was even allowed to be used. There has to be some glaring hole in regulations that such a "vessel" could be just cobbled together and allowed to operate. How many dives has this thing made, does anybody know?

This isn't like the 1930s with entrepreneurs experimenting with a new technology. Diving to the Titanic is not something that can or should be done on the cheap.

The final irony now would be for the sub to be found washed ashore someplace, completely intact; having successfully surfaced, but the occupants unable to escape because the hatch was bolted shut from the outside. I can't imagine how heartbreaking it will be if they've had time to write final letters to loved ones in the event they are found.

It's not just these ocean visits. The conspiracy theory nutjob that owns twitter and the guy who you give money to to have your Amazon parcels robbed from you is sending people to space.....

[Ray K]

A science nerd with some damning information

@RVAwonk
Wow. OceanGate, the company that owns the missing submersible, fired an employee a few years ago after he filed safety complaints against them. The employee specifically said the sub was not capable of descending to such extreme depths before he was fired.

(!!) The submersible “was only built to a certified pressure of 1,300 meters, although OceanGate intended to take passengers down to depths of 4,000 meters. […] OceanGate refused to pay for the manufacturer to build a viewport that would meet the required depth of 4,000 meters.”

We haven’t even gotten to the worst part:

“Paying passengers wouldn’t know or be informed about Lochridge’s concerns, according to his complaints. They also wouldn’t be informed ‘that hazardous flammable materials were being used within the submersible.’”

Oh and when the former OceanGate employee expressed his concerns about the “safety and quality” of the submersible and its materials, the company told him that the technology to carry out certain safety tests didn’t even exist.

https://newrepublic.com/post/173802/missing-titanic-sub-faced-lawsuit-depths-safely-travel-oceangate

[Schmidt]

Just getting caught up on this, I have no idea how anyone could come to the conclusion that getting in that shit-capsule would be a good idea, regardless of how deceptive the company was.

[A-Bomb]

One or two vile comments here which are bang out of order. Hopefully they are found safe and well. Their poor families.

Completely agree, any fault is at the hands of the company.

[Red Beret]

It's not just these ocean visits. The conspiracy theory nutjob that owns twitter and the guy who you give money to to have your Amazon parcels robbed from you is sending people to space.....

Well thankfully I don't use twitter and have never had an amazon parcel nicked, and neither of the two munchkins are directly involved in the development of spacecraft - no matter what they might want people to believe.

But you can, apparently, build a DSV without any of the stringent checks and safeguards necessary for a spacecraft.

A science nerd with some damning information

@RVAwonk
Wow. OceanGate, the company that owns the missing submersible, fired an employee a few years ago after he filed safety complaints against them. The employee specifically said the sub was not capable of descending to such extreme depths before he was fired.

(!!) The submersible “was only built to a certified pressure of 1,300 meters, although OceanGate intended to take passengers down to depths of 4,000 meters. […] OceanGate refused to pay for the manufacturer to build a viewport that would meet the required depth of 4,000 meters.”

We haven’t even gotten to the worst part:

“Paying passengers wouldn’t know or be informed about Lochridge’s concerns, according to his complaints. They also wouldn’t be informed ‘that hazardous flammable materials were being used within the submersible.’”

Oh and when the former OceanGate employee expressed his concerns about the “safety and quality” of the submersible and its materials, the company told him that the technology to carry out certain safety tests didn’t even exist.

https://newrepublic.com/post/173802/missing-titanic-sub-faced-lawsuit-depths-safely-travel-oceangate

Whoever looked at that heap of junk and believed it was even relatively safe to board is an idiot, no matter how rich they are. But they don't deserve to die for it. How desperate could you be to see Titanic to risk your neck in that thing? It's the DSV equivalent of Goodison Park!

Surely information here makes a case for invalidating this waiver? Being told the vessel wasn't certified is one thing; not being told the vehicle is inherently unsafe and diving more than three times its considered safe depth is quite another.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Well thankfully I don't use twitter and have never had an amazon parcel nicked, and neither of the two munchkins are directly involved in the development of spacecraft - no matter what they might want people to believe.

But you can, apparently, build a DSV without any of the stringent checks and safeguards necessary for a spacecraft.

Whoever looked at that heap of junk and believed it was even relatively safe to board is an idiot, no matter how rich they are. But they don't deserve to die for it. How desperate could you be to see Titanic to risk your neck in that thing? It's the DSV equivalent of Goodison Park!

Surely information here makes a case for invalidating this waiver? Being told the vessel wasn't certified is one thing; not being told the vehicle is inherently unsafe and diving more than three times its considered safe depth is quite another.

Hamish Harding

He also said the Titanic dive had been meant to take place in June 2022 but was delayed because "the submersible was unfortunately damaged on its previous dive". He said no-one was injured in the incident.

Asked about his appetite for exploration, he said: "My view is that these are all calculated risks and are well understood before we start."

[TepidT2O]

Banging noses heard apparently…

Is there actually a way of getting it back to the surface?  I suspect not.

[Clint Eastwood]

Banging noses heard apparently…

Is there actually a way of getting it back to the surface?  I suspect not.

Heard in 30 minute intervals which suggests that it is man-made. Not good. Although unlikely to be on the sea bed?

Doesn't sound like it - especially with the time remaining. The '7 emergency procedures' that the sub has are all centred around dropping those ballasts which is pretty deceiving.

[Brian Blessed]

Wanting to go and see the Titanic for shits and giggles seems quite egregious. It’s morbidity tourism.

[Mister Flip Flop]

Banging noses heard apparently…

Is there actually a way of getting it back to the surface?  I suspect not.

Experts are saying no way of getting them back. I guess they have to be seen to be doing something.

Some of you really should take a long hard look at yourself. Some of the comments on this thread are a stain on the forum.

[Nick110581]

It’s mad that people choose to get in this.

I hope there is a miracle and they are safe.

[So… Howard Philips]

Wanting to go and see the Titanic for shits and giggles seems quite egregious. It’s morbidity tourism.

Don’t disagree entirely but what about visits to Pompeii, the Coliseum, Auschwitz?

[stewil007]

Don’t disagree entirely but what about visits to Pompeii, the Coliseum, Auschwitz?

Some things are different

[gazzalfc]

Banging noses heard apparently…

Is there actually a way of getting it back to the surface?  I suspect not.

The lowest depth recorded for a submarine rescue is 1,575ft back in 1973

If this sub managed to make it down to Titanic depths then it is stuck at 12,500ft.

There will be no way to recover it in time.

If they are alive then it must be horrible what they are going through

[gazzalfc]

Well thankfully I don't use twitter and have never had an amazon parcel nicked, and neither of the two munchkins are directly involved in the development of spacecraft - no matter what they might want people to believe.

They may not be directly involved. But they are still commercialising spaceflight. They will have profit margins for every flight they make which means making more money from passengers than it costs them to build and launch their rockets.

The comparisons with grave sites are just tasteless. I think the comparison with expeditions to Everest and the North/South pole are better.

[liverbloke]

It’s mad that people choose to get in this.

I hope there is a miracle and they are safe.

and so do i...

...but i also hope that the families stump up the costs of the rescue attempt successful or not

that's not too much to ask is it?

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

It's truly Darwin-award worthy.

[Red-Soldier]

No, you’re right. It’s very, very dissimilar.

Indeed. Mad take that.

[killer-heels]

Saw that the guy in charge of this was saying safety wasnt a big worry and pretty much saying he could ignore it. Of all the places to go to and not give a shit about safety.

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

Saw that the guy in charge of this was saying safety wasnt a big worry and pretty much saying he could ignore it. Of all the places to go to and not give a shit about safety.

I think I'm pretty glad that he's also on it. Obviously don't want anyone to die, but if 5 people are going to, it's only fair that the person ultimately responsible is one of them.

[Red-Soldier]

See this is more in line with my way of thinking, as opposed to the Tory / Daily Mail comments earlier.

I know I should empathise with all those lost at sea but it's kinda hard to care one iota about people who prefer to waste money on sightseeing trips to the Titanic wreck when they probably have enough free cash to save thousands of lives per year in the Mediterranean Sea. Lives of people who might actually contribute to our society in Europe and even do something valuable for humanity, as opposed to making millions from the UK before fucking off to a tax haven and renting out planet destroying private jets.

Exactly.

Also, lets not forget that the Titanic was the ultimate symbol of class and privilege, and that most of the people that died were the poor, whilst the wealthy were helped onto the life boats.


It's a horrible way to go, but they knew the risks.  The CEO is c*nt, for allowing people to travel on that dodgy tin can in the first place.