Topic: Sub lost visiting the Titanic.

[thaddeus]

The lowest depth recorded for a submarine rescue is 1,575ft back in 1973

If this sub managed to make it down to Titanic depths then it is stuck at 12,500ft.

There will be no way to recover it in time.

If they are alive then it must be horrible what they are going through

I don't even know if the existing technology can do any of what I'm about to type but it seems feasible...

1) Locate it.  The sonobouys should do that if the people onboard keep making the banging noises.
2) Send an underwater robot down.  Magellan are involved and have robots that have been to the Titanic site previously.
3) Remove the ballast.  This is where it gets sketchier as presumably these deep sea robots are fairly basic so it would probably be limited to bumping into the submersible and attempting to knock the ballast loose.
or 3) Pull the subermisble to safety.  I'm pretty sure that technology doesn't exist but happy to be proven wrong.

The timeframes clearly aren't ideal either but it would be some rescue mission if they could pull it off.

[Cusamano]

Crazy how the whole world are shitting their pants over this story yet 500 migrants drowning is forgotten the next day

[Peabee]

Exactly.

Also, lets not forget that the Titanic was the ultimate symbol of class and privilege, and that most of the people that died were the poor, whilst the wealthy were helped onto the life boats.


It's a horrible way to go, but they knew the risks.  The CEO is c*nt, for allowing people to travel on that dodgy tin can in the first place.

Why did they paint it white? Even if it's bobbing around just under, or just above, the surface of the ocean, it's not going to be seen.

[Snail]

Banging noses heard apparently…

Is there actually a way of getting it back to the surface?  I suspect not.

I’m pretty sure they also said the banging noises have since stopped.

[gazzalfc]

I don't even know if the existing technology can do any of what I'm about to type but it seems feasible...

1) Locate it.  The sonobouys should do that if the people onboard keep making the banging noises.
2) Send an underwater robot down.  Magellan are involved and have robots that have been to the Titanic site previously.
3) Remove the ballast.  This is where it gets sketchier as presumably these deep sea robots are fairly basic so it would probably be limited to bumping into the submersible and attempting to knock the ballast loose.
or 3) Pull the subermisble to safety.  I'm pretty sure that technology doesn't exist but happy to be proven wrong.

The timeframes clearly aren't ideal either but it would be some rescue mission if they could pull it off.

I think that even if you manage to get to that depth and manage to 'pull' or lift the pod to the surface then there will be a huge pressure differential which you can't just pop the pod and everything will be ok. There will be huge Decompression sickness issues which can kill someone. They are in a pod designed for about 12 hours of 2 mile depth. They are now there for over 48 hours

[TepidT2O]

I’m pretty sure they also said the banging noises have since stopped.

Well that’s grim.

I had a terrible dream last night where I dreamt that I was stuck in it and water was pouring in.  It was horrific.

[lobsterboy]

I shouldn't have come in this thread to be honest. Incredible how judgemental people can be about 5 people who must be going through hell right now. The way BBC are announcing countdowns is highly disturbing as well.

Hope they get found.

BBC were all over it because it meant not covering just how shite their chum Boris had done with the vote.

[classycarra]

The Guardian view on danger at sea: looking out for all those in peril
Editorial

The contrast between the frantic hunt for a missing submersible and the failure to save migrants drowning in the Mediterranean is illuminating

The Guardian - it says a lot how much sensational, morbid and baying coverage this titanic sub event is getting. And why is it getting more coverage than the sinking of a migrant ship

Also The Guardian - follow here, "AND IT'S LIVE!" https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/jun/21/titanic-sub-live-updates-search-us-coast-guard-submarine-submersible

BBC were all over it because it meant not covering just how shite their chum Boris had done with the vote.

Unfortunately it's fair to say it's satisfying a demand from the public - I don't think it's a conspiracy to protect the tories - people do genuinely seem to really be 'into' this story

[lobsterboy]

Any chance Oceangate can send another one down with Trump, Bezos and Musk onboard?

[TSC]

BBC were all over it because it meant not covering just how shite their chum Boris had done with the vote.

To be fair it’s all itv news has also been reporting on.  Various talking heads interviewed.  Meanwhile inflation remains high with further interest rate increases incoming tomorrow.  And zip mention of the HOC vote earlier this week.

[Musketeer Gripweed]

It's a horrible way to go, but they knew the risks.  The CEO is c*nt, for allowing people to travel on that dodgy tin can in the first place.

Whilst I agree, I would think that any health and safety company who signed off on allowing it are equally to blame. The thing doesn't look safe enough for an Olympic size swimming pool let alone the Atlantic Ocean.

It just should never have been allowed to happen in the first place.

[Gerard00]

It's such a unique story where life hangs in the balance so its relatable to the most basics of what it is to be human is involved - mortality!

Boris and the Tories being corrupt and completely incompetent isn't really new or surprising news and even its arguable that a large part of news readership isn't interested in politics - they're most interested in what some doll from Love Island had for breakfast.

It would be a great story if they were rescued but surely the odds are so against them that its starting to get to the point where the best outcome people can hope for is a quick and painless death. The sub can't be opened even if it was at the surface. Oxygen is running out if its even still available. The subs scrubber (to omit Carbon Dioxide) may have failed - not sure if thats been mentioned. If its at the bottom it will be dark, cold and claustrophobic for those on board and then theres the possibility of pressure sickness. If its found, is there the means to raise it to the surface? In 24 hours it becomes a salvage operation rather than a rescue one.

[OsirisMVZ]

Grim to say but if it is found, the "survival footage" they'll have captured on their phones from the inside will be priceless material for not just loved ones but movies, TV etc.

[rob1966]

Whilst I agree, I would think that any health and safety company who signed off on allowing it are equally to blame. The thing doesn't look safe enough for an Olympic size swimming pool let alone the Atlantic Ocean.

It just should never have been allowed to happen in the first place.

Its not been signed off by anyone, its has no certification and the waiver passengers sign states that, it's a cobbled together piece of shit.

[Red-Soldier]

The Guardian - it says a lot how much sensational, morbid and baying coverage this titanic sub event is getting. And why is it getting more coverage than the sinking of a migrant ship

Also The Guardian - follow here, "AND IT'S LIVE!" https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/jun/21/titanic-sub-live-updates-search-us-coast-guard-submarine-submersibleUnfortunately it's fair to say it's satisfying a demand from the public - I don't think it's a conspiracy to protect the tories - people do genuinely seem to really be 'into' this story

No.  This is what the editorial says: 

A massive operation is under way to find and save a stricken vessel and its passengers. As time passes, anxious families and friends wait with growing fear. The US coastguard, Canadian armed forces and commercial vessels are all hunting for the Titan submersible, which has gone missing with five aboard on a dive to the wreck of the Titanic in the north Atlantic. The UK’s Ministry of Defence is also monitoring the situation.

It is hard to think of a starker contrast with the response to a fishing boat which sank in the Mediterranean last week with an estimated 750 people, including children, packed onboard. Only about 100 survived, making this one of the deadliest disasters in the Mediterranean. Greece and the EU blame people smugglers, who overcrowd boats and abuse those aboard them. But both have profound questions to answer about their own role in such disasters. Activists say authorities were repeatedly warned of the danger this boat faced, hours before it went down, but failed to act.

Seems to be about the physical response.

[Livbes]

Grim to say but if it is found, the "survival footage" they'll have captured on their phones from the inside will be priceless material for not just loved ones but movies, TV etc.

I think I read there was a strict list on what could be taken down and it was literally themselves. No phones, no shoes, etc.

[Musketeer Gripweed]

Its not been signed off by anyone, its has no certification and the waiver passengers sign states that, it's a cobbled together piece of shit.

That's unbelievable and plain wrong then. I don't really like saying it, but the clients must be absolutely mad.

[paulrazor]

Talk yesterday was just under 48 hours of oxygen left, today is critical but i fear it is too late

[thaddeus]

Whilst I agree, I would think that any health and safety company who signed off on allowing it are equally to blame. The thing doesn't look safe enough for an Olympic size swimming pool let alone the Atlantic Ocean.

It just should never have been allowed to happen in the first place.

Irrespective of the outcome of this search and rescue similar future endeavours should not only require a waiver from the clients but also a waiver from the company that they won't be rescued unless through means funded by the company.

If explorers want to get their thrills in machines more befitting of a Last of the Summer Wine episode then it's very hard to stop them doing it.  Having this scale of response whenever one of these expeditions goes wrong is unsustainable.

That said, I of course hope the resucers pull this off.  I then hope those onboard are suitably grateful that they reimburse the various authorities.

[west_london_red]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but if the sub in on the surface are they able to get oxygen into the sub from outside? I just had the rather grim thought that imagine if they were on the surface but the sub can only be opened from the outside they could suffocate while on the surface

[tubby]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but if the sub in on the surface are they able to get oxygen into the sub from outside? I just had the rather grim thought that imagine if they were on the surface but the sub can only be opened from the outside they could suffocate while on the surface

If they find the sub on the surface I'm sure there's tools that can get into it.  Doing anything with it that far down in the ocean is the problem, too deep for divers, it'd have to be a robot or something and even then, what can it do?

I don't want them to be dead, but they're dead.

[Nogg3000]

There will be huge Decompression sickness issues which can kill someone. They are in a pod designed for about 12 hours of 2 mile depth. They are now there for over 48 hours

It doesn’t work that way Gazza, the sub would have been at 1 atmosphere the whole time. Assuming they get back, they can just pop the hatch. You only need to decompress if you’ve been diving and body has been breathing / been saturated with pressurised gas.

[thejbs]

Just read the guardian article on the company. Absolute fucking cowboys. They have that Elon Musk type arrogance that regulation stifles innovation. Regulation saves lives. The owners hubris may well have cost him his. Kinda fitting that they were en route to the largest tomb of hubris there is.

[lionel_messias]

Incredibly grim this and grim fascination over it.

People are saying it might be better if it has imploded and killed them all quickly.

Submersible with a Playstation controller, communicating by text message. The absolute state of this hubris.

James Cameron would be ashamed, and he's doing Avatar sequels until 2031.

[liverbloke]

was watching the news this morning and some guy involved with this submersible (sorry can't remember how he was involved exactly - older guy balding wearing glasses if i remember) did say that the owner did state that 'this' was going to happen sometime - that the sub would be caught in something, or a malfunction would happen or something else, that it was a tragedy waiting to happen and they were fully aware of that

[lionel_messias]

was watching the news this morning and some guy involved with this submersible (sorry can't remember how he was involved exactly - older guy balding wearing glasses if i remember) did say that the owner did state that 'this' was going to happen sometime - that the sub would be caught in something, or a malfunction would happen or something else, that it was a tragedy waiting to happen and they were fully aware of that

I really hope they get out of this alive obviously. But if they do not, the CEO of this mission will die face-to-face with a man who is with his 19-year old son.

[Red-Soldier]

Incredibly grim this and grim fascination over it.

People are saying it might be better if it has imploded and killed them all quickly.

Submersible with a Playstation controller, communicating by text message. The absolute state of this hubris.

James Cameron would be ashamed, and he's doing Avatar sequels until 2031.

What could possibly go wrong.

[thejbs]

It’s the equivalent of that time I jumped on a plane to Iceland last minute for a job without a winter coat and wearing worn out adidas sambas. Trying to climb over frozen rock with 5k of gear attached to me and freezing cold, totally ill-equipped.

[Chakan]

Haven't been following this at all, how many times before had the sub gone down to that depth?

[Nick110581]

The waiver they signed mentioned death three times on first page.

You would have to have some faith in the guy leading it.

[Clint Eastwood]

It’s the equivalent of that time I jumped on a plane to Iceland last minute for a job without a winter coat and wearing worn out adidas sambas. Trying to climb over frozen rock with 5k of gear attached to me and freezing cold, totally ill-equipped.

Imagine if the plane you jumped on was uncertified, only had one button and two iPads, had no way of communicating with the ground, and was flown by someone without a pilots licence.

[liverbloke]

i remember watching a half hour documentary on the bbc travel show a while back

link to that episode 'take me to the titanic' https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0fpz9zw

and preview clip here

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/7dTBK6cdB58" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/7dTBK6cdB58</a>

[lobsterboy]

You have to be mental to have gone on that thing.
I have a kid and if money was no object its not where I'd be taking him.

[jonnypb]

They're saying now that they have the equipment that can retrieve the sub if it's on the bottom of the sea.   The US Navy has equipment that has been used to recover plane wreckages from the sea bed and they can salvage equipment down to a maximum depth of 20,000 feet.  They still have to locate the sub first and time isn't on their side.

[Red-Soldier]

Titanic submersible: documents reveal multiple concerns raised over safety of vessel

A 2018 letter from industry leaders urged OceanGate to have its Titan sub classed by an independent agency

The expedition that the Titan submersible and its crew were undergoing was tremendously risky, according to industry experts and former passengers. The Titan had to withstand the pressure that comes from being almost 4,000 metres (13,100ft) below sea level – the depth of water in which the Titanic came to rest – and faced the threat of getting lost or losing contact with the surface.

But while it is too early to say what has happened to the vessel, experts have raised questions over whether all appropriate safety measures were followed.

Stockton Rush, the chief executive and founder of OceanGate, creator of Titan, is among those missing. Rush has decades of engineering experience and has been at the helm of expeditions to the Titanic since 2021 – this was his fifth. In addition, OceanGate said there were a number of innovative safety features on board.

Despite this, the potential risks were made clear to passengers. Mike Reiss, who travelled on the Titan last year, told the BBC: “You sign a waiver before you get on that mentions death three different times. They’re learning as they go along … things go wrong. I’ve taken three different dives with this company and you almost always [lose] communication.”

The Guardian understands that all standard checks and procedures were followed before the submersible set off on its voyage, but concerns over whether the vessel met industry safety standards have come to light.

On Tuesday, the New York Times published a letter written in 2018 by industry leaders in the submersible vessel field, warning Rush of possible “catastrophic” problems with Titan’s development.

The Marine Technology Society, an industry group made up of ocean engineers, technologists, policymakers and educators, expressed “concern regarding the development of Titan and the planned Titanic Expeditions” and warned against the “current experimental approach adopted by OceanGate”.

At issue was whether the Titan vessel would be independently assessed by industry regulators or risk assessors.

The Marine Technology Society was critical of OceanGate issuing marketing material that stated the Titan design would “meet or exceed the DNV-GL safety standards” while apparently not intending to have the vessel assessed by that same organisation.

The DNV is an independent organisation, described as the world’s leading classification society for the maritime industry, which certifies vessels such as submersibles and issues regulations for such products.

In the case of vessels such as Titan, the DNV classification process examines whether “internationally recognised rules” were followed and includes inspections during the constructions and operations phase.

In its letter, the Marine Technology Society wrote: “We recommend that at a minimum, you institute a prototype testing program that is reviewed and witnessed by DNV-GL.”

A spokesperson for OceanGate declined to comment on the 2018 letter when approached by the New York Times.

In an interview with the Guardian late last year, Rush said the vessel had been custom built to reach and view the Titanic, describing it as capable of making a 2.5-mile drop through the water column but deft enough to be steered just inches from the wreck.

“We had to make our own sub,” he said. “So our sub weighs about half as much as any other deep diving sub, or research sub, that’s been down there. And it because it’s smaller and lighter, it’s much more manoeuvrable. And so we can get very close.”

The vessel has room for five people, he said. “People come in thinking, ‘Oh, I’m claustrophobic,’” he said. “But it’s no more claustrophobic than taking a plane.”

Rush also spoke of the dangers of the expeditions. “One of the hardest things we have to do is get inches from the Titanic, because we’re dropping two and a half miles through the water column and we don’t know what the currents are. And they change day to day and season to season and they change at 300 meters. There’s a huge shift at the thermocline [the transition layer between warmer surface waters and colder deeper water] and we don’t have a way of tracking that.”

He added: “We’ve been fortunate that on the wreck the currents have been fairly light. If the currents are high, then you change your profile and how close you’ll get to the wreck. But if it’s very calm … I can write my name in the mud with the sub. It’s that manoeuvrable.”

Almost a year after the letter was sent, OceanGate published a blog post explaining why it would not have Titan certified. In the post, the company acknowledged that classification assures “vessels are designed, constructed and inspected to accepted standards”, but claimed it did little to “weed out sub-par vessel operators”. The company claimed “operator error” was responsible for the vast majority of accidents.

OceanGate was also concerned that the classing process could slow down development and act as a drag on innovation. “Bringing an outside entity up to speed on every innovation before it is put into real-world testing is anathema to rapid innovation.”

In an interview with the Smithsonian Magazine in 2019, Rush complained that the commercial sub industry had not “innovated or grown – because they have all these regulations”.

It’s not clear whether Titan received industry certification since the blog post was published, but in 2022 a CBS News reporter who was set to travel on the vessel reported that the waiver he signed read: “This experimental vessel has not been approved or certified by any regulatory body.”

In defending its decision not to have the Titan classed, the company highlighted what it said were safety innovations on board, including “carbon fiber pressure vessels and a real-time (RTM) hull health monitoring system”.

However, the ability of the sub’s hull design to withstand such depths was questioned in a 2018 lawsuit filed by OceanGate’s former director of marine operations, David Lochridge, who said he was fired after he raised safety concerns about the vessel.

OceanGate said in its breach of contract suit against Lochridge, who is not an engineer, that he refused to accept the lead engineer’s assurances and accused him of improperly sharing confidential information. The two sides settled their court case in November 2018.

The company did not respond to requests for comment from the Reuters news agency, and its attorney in the Lochridge case, Thomas Gilman, declined comment.

OceanGate said it was “mobilizing all options” in the search, and US Coast Guard Rear Adm John Mauger told NBC News the company was helping to guide the search efforts.

“They know that site better than anybody else,” Mauger said. “We’re working very closely with them to prioritise our underwater search efforts and get equipment there.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/21/titanic-submersible-documents-reveal-multiple-concerns-raised-over-safety-of-vessel

Seems like it was only a matter of time before something like this happened.  Private company cutting corners regarding health and safety, we haven't seen that before..

[stewil007]

They're saying now that they have the equipment that can retrieve the sub if it's on the bottom of the sea.   The US Navy has equipment that has been used to recover plane wreckages from the sea bed and they can salvage equipment down to a maximum depth of 20,000 feet.  They still have to locate the sub first and time isn't on their side.

even is they find the sub, how long does it take to deploy the salvage equipment - then how long does it take to bring the sub back to the surface - 2 hours to get down isn't it? going to be similar coming back up.

can't like the chances of a positive outcome......

[Red Beret]

If the sub is at the bottom in the debris field they'll struggle to stand out against all that wreckage.  There should be fairly decent sonar maps of the sea floor around the Titanic though.

[jonnypb]

even is they find the sub, how long does it take to deploy the salvage equipment - then how long does it take to bring the sub back to the surface - 2 hours to get down isn't it? going to be similar coming back up.

can't like the chances of a positive outcome......

Yeah the big thing would be getting the equipment to the salvage site on time if they find it.  You have to think that if there isn't a major break through in the next few hours, then it'll turn into a recovery mission and not a rescue one.

[Doc Red]

Haven't been following this at all, how many times before had the sub gone down to that depth?

On a CNN interview yesterday, it was mentioned that they had lost contact with the sub once before for 2 hours, last year I think, though it got sorted out in the end. Can't believe people would take that risk, but these aren't just the average person. One of them has also gone on a spaceflight last year, so taking risks seems to add to the enjoyment.

[Clint Eastwood]

Yeah the big thing would be getting the equipment to the salvage site on time if they find it.  You have to think that if there isn't a major break through in the next few hours, then it'll turn into a recovery mission and not a rescue one.

Lots of hope being pinned on this French survey ship which isn't too far away from reaching the site.