Topic: Sub lost visiting the Titanic.

[thejbs]

No.  We'd just be making sure lifeboats weren't going down with only a couple of people on board and that everyone had a fair chance of getting on one, not just the wealthy and privileged.

This.

[Red-Soldier]

Update from Jersey:

https://jerseyeveningpost.com/news/2023/06/22/us-military-plane-arrives-in-jersey-to-load-equipment-for-titanic-sub-search/

Now moving toward the site although there is no way to get there in time now. It is a shame, all this was ready on Monday but US politics blocked it all as I understand.

The Russians were the same with the Kursk.

[Red-Soldier]

Cameron's peak was Piranha 2: The Spawning

 

[thaddeus]

Well look at it this way - the wreck was discovered in 1985. In 38 years there have been countless dives on the ship, by all sorts of submersibles, and this is the first serious incident. That is a testament to the safety of these devices - when designed and built properly.

There are clearly regulations in place when it comes to building these; and I believe this private operator has tried to skirt these regulations. I also believe he's then misrepresented the risks to his clients.

I want them rescued, if only to see this guy sued into oblivion and end up with nothing for causing all of this. And I hope it highlights the lack of regulation on private operators offering extreme tourism in hazardous environments. And like I said earlier, I hope it puts an end to "Titanic Tourism" - especially if this incident has resulted in serious damage to the wreck itself.

I don't know if he misrepresented the risks or just plainly didn't believe them.  The CEO and founder of OceanGate - Stockton Rush - is seemingly one of those people onboard so he must have had some faith in the submersible, however misplaced.

Assuming it ends badly then Rush won't be in a position to care about being sued.  OceanGate surely has no future though and, cynically, I expect the accountants are busily ensuring the private wealth of the Rush family is clearly delineated from the wealth of OceanGate such that any lawsuits land against a reduced estate.

[Fiasco]

I understand totally the disparity in care and coverage between this and migrant boats sinking - whether we care to admit it or not a lot of people don't give a fuck about people dying trying to escape from horrors in other countries, and depending on how you view it the media are happy to run with this as it is more Hollywood and like something from a movie playing out in real time. Not only that, people just shrug now at migrant boat sinkings and disasters. Oh, 100 dead off the coast of France? Next story...

In addition - and without going into it too much - the media in this country especially are happy to divert attention away from the ongoing Tory shitshow. I think some attitudes in this thread haven't been great, yes they're stinking rich and with lifestyles 99.9 percent of people could only dream of, but do we know anything about what they do with their wealth (apart from spending 250k a piece to go on a submersible your grandad would build in his back garden)? We don't know that they haven't contributed millions to charities and conservation efforts, we don't know what they do and don't do with their wealth. Yes, it is galling to see the effort for them and not for others, but I don't think that is the fault of those on board.

It really is a tragic story, the thought of being in there just sends chills and it is horrible just to envisage.

[Red-Soldier]

I understand totally the disparity in care and coverage between this and migrant boats sinking - whether we care to admit it or not a lot of people don't give a fuck about people dying trying to escape from horrors in other countries, and depending on how you view it the media are happy to run with this as it is more Hollywood and like something from a movie playing out in real time. Not only that, people just shrug now at migrant boat sinkings and disasters. Oh, 100 dead off the coast of France? Next story...

In addition - and without going into it too much - the media in this country especially are happy to divert attention away from the ongoing Tory shitshow. I think some attitudes in this thread haven't been great, yes they're stinking rich and with lifestyles 99.9 percent of people could only dream of, but do we know anything about what they do with their wealth (apart from spending 250k a piece to go on a submersible your grandad would build in his back garden)? We don't know that they haven't contributed millions to charities and conservation efforts, we don't know what they do and don't do with their wealth. Yes, it is galling to see the effort for them and not for others, but I don't think that is the fault of those on board.

It really is a tragic story, the thought of being in there just sends chills and it is horrible just to envisage.

One sells private jets from a tax haven.

Billionaires shouldn't exist, in a fair and just society.

[Son of Spion]

Tragic in all kinds of ways this. I can't even begin to imagine what it must be like to be trapped in a tube awaiting your demise. The sense of panic, fear, dread, doom must be utterly traumatising. Even if they were to survive (which is now unlikely) I'm guessing they'd be shells of their former selves from the ordeal of it all.

I know it's an awful thing to say, but in some ways I hope there was an implosion and that it was all over before they knew it, because the above scenario is just too horrific to comprehend

Bless their souls

Assuming no rescue is forthcoming, an implosion would be the the kindest way to have gone.

I've been in submarines twice. Once off Gran Canaria and once further out off Barbados. Relatively shallow water (100 or so feet down rather than thousands) with support on the surface and no doubt plans in place if rescue was ever necessary.

As much as I enjoyed it, there was always still a sense of unease. You are very much aware that you are in a tin can under the ocean. The mind is very good at looking for and dwelling on worst case scenario.

What those people must be going through or went through is almost unimaginable. Just thinking about it sucks the air out of my own lungs as I write this and fills me with anxiety.

If they don't make it, I sincerely hope the sub imploded days ago and they didn't suffer the mental torture of contemplating their own demise as the air ran out.

Edit:

I speak on a purely human level. Their privilege and wealth doesn't come into it. When we stare death in the face, we are all frightened children.

[thaddeus]

I've been in submarines twice. Once off Gran Canaria and once further out off Barbados. Relatively shallow water (100 or so feet down rather than thousands) with support on the surface and no doubt plans in place if rescue was ever necessary.

As much as I enjoyed it, there was always still a sense of unease. You are very much aware that you are in a tin can under the ocean. The mind is very good at looking for and dwelling on worst case scenario.

I feel claustrophobic on the Deep Sea Adventure ride at Legoland 

[Barneylfc∗]

I agree. I lost my temper a bit. I left it up because I deserved criticism for it. I'll delete it now though.

No need to delete it, it's a perfectly valid point even though I don't agree with it.

For me, it's not their bank balance that's the bottom line of it all, although I won't deny it plays a part. It's that they had all the relevant information available and knew dying a horrible death was a very real, and maybe even likely possibility, yet still chose to fire on and get inside this capsule.

As others have said, 500+ people dying in the Med trying to make a life for themselves got a quick scan on the news. A few billionaire's deliberately putting themselves in the hands of the Grim Reaper for nothing more than a bit of craic is receiving wall to wall coverage for 4/5 days.

[rob1966]

Well look at it this way - the wreck was discovered in 1985. In 38 years there have been countless dives on the ship, by all sorts of submersibles, and this is the first serious incident. That is a testament to the safety of these devices - when designed and built properly.

There are clearly regulations in place when it comes to building these; and I believe this private operator has tried to skirt these regulations. I also believe he's then misrepresented the risks to his clients.

I want them rescued, if only to see this guy sued into oblivion and end up with nothing for causing all of this. And I hope it highlights the lack of regulation on private operators offering extreme tourism in hazardous environments. And like I said earlier, I hope it puts an end to "Titanic Tourism" - especially if this incident has resulted in serious damage to the wreck itself.

No he hasn't. 3 times on page one alone of the waiver they mention death, the guy whose name I posted earlier said the waiver constantly mentions death, the waiver states it's not certified.

It took me 30 seconds on google to find this, its the Triton 13000/2 Titanic explorer, certified to the depths the Titanic is at, Ł10 million to buy

[Red Beret]

I don't know if he misrepresented the risks or just plainly didn't believe them.  The CEO and founder of OceanGate - Stockton Rush - is seemingly one of those people onboard so he must have had some faith in the submersible, however misplaced.

Assuming it ends badly then Rush won't be in a position to care about being sued.  OceanGate surely has no future though and, cynically, I expect the accountants are busily ensuring the private wealth of the Rush family is clearly delineated from the wealth of OceanGate such that any lawsuits land against a reduced estate.

From what I've read in here, Rush's background is in engineering. I don't know if he personally designed the DSV or had any input on its construction, but he would have had a brief and a budget.

He either trusted the DSV, which means he's not as clever as he thought he was, or he knowingly took a chance. If Rush was trying to drum up investment for his project (the man's a fucking billionaire - spend your own bloody money!) then maybe the only way he could persuade his client to board was if he piloted it himself. "Hey if it was unsafe, I woudn't go with you!"  We just don't know right now.

I've made no secret in this thread that I would love to see Titanic with my own eyes. Hell, Tony Robinson visited Titanic with James Cameron. Looking at Cameron's wikipedia entry, it seems he always had a fascination with shipwrecks, and he's made big contributions to the fields of science, and the technology of underwater filming. Maybe this CEO had similar dreams, I don't know. But if you're a billionaire, you can afford to do it right.

[Nick110581]

No he hasn't. 3 times on page one alone of the waiver they mention death, the guy whose name I posted earlier said the waiver constantly mentions death, the waiver states it's not certified.

It took me 30 seconds on google to find this, its the Triton 13000/2 Titanic explorer, certified to the depths the Titanic is at, Ł10 million to buy

I can assume that they were happy that the vessel had done the mission a number of times.

[Schmidt]

No he hasn't. 3 times on page one alone of the waiver they mention death, the guy whose name I posted earlier said the waiver constantly mentions death, the waiver states it's not certified.

It took me 30 seconds on google to find this, its the Triton 13000/2 Titanic explorer, certified to the depths the Titanic is at, Ł10 million to buy

Too many buttons.

[clinical]

There's 5 of them in there. I bet it's crossed their minds that oxygen lasts a lot longer when there's only one of them.

[owens_2k]

If the sub is still intact then surely the cold would have got to them first? With the cold and the vacuum, their bodies will be well preserved.

[tubby]

Pretty sure I've seen that Triton 13000/2 Titanic explorer being flown by a Sith.

[redbyrdz]

I can assume that they were happy that the vessel had done the mission a number of times.

Think it's about "friends". The billionaire and son went on that trip, because they'd met some of the others, and went with their mates. Two of the others had roles  on board, so were essentially "staff". One was the "pilot" (I haven't read who, but maybe the CEO), and one was the "tour guide"  - the guy with the knowledge about the Titanic. The billionaire could've bought that much safer sub, but it looks like it only takes two, so he'd have to learn how to use it himself, instead of simply booking on a trip.

[Red Beret]

No he hasn't. 3 times on page one alone of the waiver they mention death, the guy whose name I posted earlier said the waiver constantly mentions death, the waiver states it's not certified.

It took me 30 seconds on google to find this, its the Triton 13000/2 Titanic explorer, certified to the depths the Titanic is at, Ł10 million to buy

Yes Rob, you have mentioned this. But saying repeatedly that someone might die on this trip doesn't really absolve you of responsibility if you're using a vehicle you know inherently raises the risk of said death. And there's a difference between saying a device is uncertified or experimental and saying a device is unsafe.

The question becomes: have all steps been taken to ensure the DSV was as safe as could be reasonably expected?

Check out Soyuz 1 and Vladimir Komarov. It's the difference between undertaking a mission that carries an inherent risk of death and undertaking what is essentially a suicide mission because you know your vehicle is a death trap because it is fundamentally faulty.

For myself, if you offered me a chance to visit Titanic on either that Triton 13000/2 or Alvin, I'd pick Alvin. The view won't be as good but I'd feel a lot safer.

[rob1966]

I can assume that they were happy that the vessel had done the mission a number of times.

There was a fella (I missed his details) on the news this morning who'd been on it, he said some parts worked really well, and other parts that didn't work so well, such as the thrusters and the computers

[Fiasco]

One sells private jets from a tax haven.

Billionaires shouldn't exist, in a fair and just society.

I don't disagree with that but I'm just talking more broadly. If they're so keen on exploring and philanthropy and everything else, I'm sure some (perhaps not enough) of their wealth has gone to good causes. Shahzada Dawood is a board member at the SETI Institute for example.

I find it mad that they'd go on that thing like everyone else in the first place. But I can't celebrate their likely demise just because they're rich.

[PhilV]

The Russians were the same with the Kursk.

Indeed - we have been ready to go all this time but so much red tape.

The Kursk makes more sense, nuclear sub, state technology secrets etc... I think this was just moreso American pride/burocracy but that is not a fact, just my personal opinion

[thejbs]

No he hasn't. 3 times on page one alone of the waiver they mention death, the guy whose name I posted earlier said the waiver constantly mentions death, the waiver states it's not certified.

It took me 30 seconds on google to find this, its the Triton 13000/2 Titanic explorer, certified to the depths the Titanic is at, Ł10 million to buy

How do you pilot that without a PS2 controller?

[Red Beret]

I don't disagree with that but I'm just talking more broadly. If they're so keen on exploring and philanthropy and everything else, I'm sure some (perhaps not enough) of their wealth has gone to good causes. Shahzada Dawood is a board member at the SETI Institute for example.

I find it mad that they'd go on that thing like everyone else in the first place. But I can't celebrate their likely demise just because they're rich.

This. People with that line of thinking come across as spiteful and bitter to me.

If it was Elon Musk stuck down there, I'd still want the sub rescued for the sake of the other passengers.

[rob1966]

Yes Rob, you have mentioned this. But saying repeatedly that someone might die on this trip doesn't really absolve you of responsibility if you're using a vehicle you know inherently raises the risk of said death. And there's a difference between saying a device is uncertified or experimental and saying a device is unsafe.

The question becomes: have all steps been taken to ensure the DSV was as safe as could be reasonably expected?

Check out Soyuz 1 and Vladimir Komarov. It's the difference between undertaking a mission that carries an inherent risk of death and undertaking what is essentially a suicide mission because you know your vehicle is a death trap because it is fundamentally faulty.

For myself, if you offered me a chance to visit Titanic on either that Triton 13000/2 or Alvin, I'd pick Alvin. The view won't be as good but I'd feel a lot safer.

For me, a waiver constantly mentioning death and stating explicitly its not certified, says they (the company) knew its wasn't safe.

I'd pick the 13000/2 myself as its modern, made with modern materials, with all the knowledge gleaned over the past 50 years and the fact that Triton have successfully gone as deep as 35,000ft in one of their vessels that is independently certified as unlimited depth.

[redbyrdz]

If the sub is still intact then surely the cold would have got to them first? With the cold and the vacuum, their bodies will be well preserved.

Five people in a tiny capsule, it must have been boiling. And what vacuum? There is no vacuum, the inside is pressurised to at least one atmosphere, and the water on the outside has much higher pressure. If there was an air leak, the water pressure will have crushed the thing like an empty can. If the water somehow got in slowly, for example because it was bobbing on the surface with a leak, it'd have run full and sunk.

[thejbs]

I don't disagree with that but I'm just talking more broadly. If they're so keen on exploring and philanthropy and everything else, I'm sure some (perhaps not enough) of their wealth has gone to good causes. Shahzada Dawood is a board member at the SETI Institute for example.

I find it mad that they'd go on that thing like everyone else in the first place. But I can't celebrate their likely demise just because they're rich.

Fuck philanthropy. Pay people properly and pay tax.

To reiterate, billionaires should not exist.

[thaddeus]

From what I've read in here, Rush's background is in engineering. I don't know if he personally designed the DSV or had any input on its construction, but he would have had a brief and a budget.

He either trusted the DSV, which means he's not as clever as he thought he was, or he knowingly took a chance. If Rush was trying to drum up investment for his project (the man's a fucking billionaire - spend your own bloody money!) then maybe the only way he could persuade his client to board was if he piloted it himself. "Hey if it was unsafe, I woudn't go with you!"  We just don't know right now.

I've made no secret in this thread that I would love to see Titanic with my own eyes. Hell, Tony Robinson visited Titanic with James Cameron. Looking at Cameron's wikipedia entry, it seems he always had a fascination with shipwrecks, and he's made big contributions to the fields of science, and the technology of underwater filming. Maybe this CEO had similar dreams, I don't know. But if you're a billionaire, you can afford to do it right.

Apparently Stockton Rush is merely a millionaire with a net worth of around $12m.  He was born a millionaire with ambitions of going to Mars but abandoned that due to cost, instead favouring deep sea exploration.

Everything I'd previously read said he was a billionaire in which case the whole thing was idiotic.  That he's a millionaire courting investment from billionaires makes more sense and also partly explains why the submersible is somewhat less impressive than the $10m Triton 13000/2.

[Red Beret]

Five people in a tiny capsule, it must have been boiling. And what vacuum? There is no vacuum, the inside is pressurised to at least one athmosphere, and the water on the outside has much higher pressure. If there was an air leak, the water pressure will have crushed the thing like an empty can. If the water somehow got in slowly, for example because it was bobbing on the surface with a leak, it'd have run full and sunk.

These capsules can be very warm on the surface of the ocean, but they quickly become freezing inside once deep underwater. (At extreme depth, the ocean can actually be below zero degrees, but remains fluid because of the high pressures.) You can see pictures of Ballard aboard Avlin exploring the Titanic, and him and the crew are all wearing several layers of jumpers that they gradually put on as the sub descends.

A tiny, high pressure leak could develop in a DSV that could then damage equipment inside - like the radio, say. In those circumstances, I'd say a few minutes at most before the weld catastrophically failed, causing the DSV to implode.

[Fiasco]

Fuck philanthropy. Pay people properly and pay tax.

To reiterate, billionaires should not exist.

You don't have to be in one camp or the other. I'm not here defending billionaires, that would be the last thing I'd do. A billionaire runs our club, I take it you haven't watched a single minute since he's been here?

A 19 year old kid is on board, on a journey with his old man that'll probably be his last. I don't remember what I was doing at 19, I wasn't in his position but I also don't think we should have a 'fuck him' attitude towards a kid who doesn't know much better.

[Red Beret]

Apparently Stockton Rush is merely a millionaire with a net worth of around $12m.  He was born a millionaire with ambitions of going to Mars but abandoned that due to cost, instead favouring deep sea exploration.

Everything I'd previously read said he was a billionaire in which case the whole thing was idiotic.  That he's a millionaire courting investment from billionaires makes more sense and also partly explains why the submersible is somewhat less impressive than the $10m Triton 13000/2.

Fucking hell. Talk about the rich equivalent of a chancer. Cameron is worth $700m.

You could probably hire a proper DSV and charge the same, with a business plan of how you aim to build your own. This sounds like the guy was way too impatient.

[jambutty]

One of the venture's supporters claimed the fees were ploughed back into the project, that participants recognised that they were involved in (vanity, imo) 'research' and making them feel part of the team was writ large.

When you've got money, why not spend it on you and yours?

Tragic as this is, it's wonderful to see the entire connected world unified and holding their breath for the plight of 5 people in a desperate situation.

[Red Beret]

Tragic as this is, it's wonderful to see the entire connected world almost unified and holding their breath for the plight of 5 people in a desperate situation.

Fixed. 

[rob1966]

You don't have to be in one camp or the other. I'm not here defending billionaires, that would be the last thing I'd do. A billionaire runs our club, I take it you haven't watched a single minute since he's been here?

A 19 year old kid is on board, on a journey with his old man that'll probably be his last. I don't remember what I was doing at 19, I wasn't in his position but I also don't think we should have a 'fuck him' attitude towards a kid who doesn't know much better.

He's the one I feel sorry for, he's likely trusted his Dad that what they were doing, going over 2 miles deep in the sea, was as safe as it could be and that all unnecessary risks were removed and all safety procedures were as good as you could get.

[Red-Soldier]

I don't disagree with that but I'm just talking more broadly. If they're so keen on exploring and philanthropy and everything else, I'm sure some (perhaps not enough) of their wealth has gone to good causes. Shahzada Dawood is a board member at the SETI Institute for example.

I find it mad that they'd go on that thing like everyone else in the first place. But I can't celebrate their likely demise just because they're rich.

I don't think anyone here is celebrating their demise. 

[TepidT2O]

Christ this is so grim

[Red-Soldier]

Christ this is so grim

What?

The fact that a chancer built a sub that was unsafe and uncertified, to transport people to a very dangerous place, whilst charging them $250 k for the privilege....I agree.

[TepidT2O]

What?

The fact that a chancer built a sub that was unsafe and uncertified, to transport people to a very dangerous place, whilst charging them $250 k for the privilege....I agree.

Genuinely think this is one of the most horrible threads I’ve ever read.

You’ve made my point

[Red-Soldier]

Genuinely think this is one of the most horrible threads I’ve ever read.

You’ve made my point

Not as bad as your one about the wife   

[jambutty]

BREAKING NEWS!

Many Scousers hate capitalists.

[Schmidt]

The media have been sharing everything with a hopeful tone but with the really useful equipment only just arriving on the scene, the travel time to get to the right depth, search time, recovery time, it's hard not to assume that it's basically over right? They don't seem to have reduced the search area at all, if anything it's expanding.