Topic: Sub lost visiting the Titanic.

[butchersdog]

I hope they’re found safe and well. Is it just me that thinks wanting to visit the Titanic in the first place is a bit.. ghoulish? This is a grave site.

[rob1966]

inside the submersible

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/ClkytJa0ghc" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/ClkytJa0ghc</a>

Fucking hell, that looks like a film prop, not a real submersible.

[Livbes]

inside the submersible

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/ClkytJa0ghc" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/ClkytJa0ghc</a>

Mental. Like I’ve said, more people have been in space. Wouldn't send 5 people up in a homemade cylinder with an Xbox controller. And what’s the fucking point? One crappy little window, next to the crapper.

[rob1966]

Of course they deserve sympathy, they're still human beings, they haven't done anything to deserve to die like this, or their families to lose them. One of them's only 19.

Its sad when anyone dies, but if someone did something absolutely stupid, like they walked up to a lion in the wild and got killed, you'd think "stupid bastard, serves you right". Same as when I welded a sign to an LPG cage, if that had blown up, its was my own stupid fault. Anyone who chooses to go down to those depths in that cock arsed submarine is an idiot, especially when there are proper submersibles available. I don't for one minute think they deserve to die, but when you are so reckless and then that recklessness puts others who have to try and save you at risk, then no sympathy. I just hope none of the rescuers gets hurt.

I do have sympathy with the families who are losing loved ones, they'll never get over it, especially the mother of the 19yr old.

[Party Phil]

I might sound harsh, but these fucking idiots don't deserve any sympathy and the ones who own the sub need fucking (I hear the company owner is one of the missing). It's a cobbled together piece of shit from the sounds of it, that isn't fit to go to the bottom of a swimming pool, never mind 13,000 ft and now countless people have to put their lives at risk trying to find them. Its not a joy ride, its a serious undertaking and the eqpt used for a venture like this should be the best on the market and capable of undertaking the journey

Not harsh enough in my opinion. Out of the five apparently on board, 2 are ultra high net worth individuals who apparently prefer to spunk millions on stupid stunts for their own satisfaction than use their money to contribute anything worthwhile to humanity. It's the same with the trips to space, South Pole, mount Everest etc. Spaffing money up the wall and polluting every last corner of the planet just to be able to say "I've done something you haven't" down the polo club. Twats.

And the other two are enabling this shit by owning and piloting this piece of shit submersible principally to rinse stupid rich c*nts (I don't believe for a second that any serious scientific research goes on with that underwater shitbox). The only one who I feel sorry for is the young lad who, at 19, is on the borderline of "should have known better", the other 4 are well past that. As has been said above, as usual the tax payer bears the multimillion cost of looking for these rich morons with planes, ships and submarines out looking for them. If it had been 5 poor kids blown offshore in a dinghy they would have been lucky to get the local lifeboat out.

In summary, fuck em.

[Barneylfc∗]

Of course they deserve sympathy, they're still human beings, they haven't done anything to deserve to die like this, or their families to lose them. One of them's only 19.

I agree with Rob I think. Every person in that vessel knew the risks involved in getting inside of it. Rob mentions it refers to dying 3 times on one page, so they are fully aware if they get in it they might die. I'd have sympathy if there was a genuine reason for them going dowen there other than going down because they can afford to.

[Red Beret]

I hope they’re found safe and well. Is it just me that thinks wanting to visit the Titanic in the first place is a bit.. ghoulish? This is a grave site.

I've visited Auschwitz. Not exactly comparable to be sure, but not too dissimilar either. Both are the sites of human tragedy.

[Red Beret]

Not harsh enough in my opinion. Out of the five apparently on board, 2 are ultra high net worth individuals who apparently prefer to spunk millions on stupid stunts for their own satisfaction than use their money to contribute anything worthwhile to humanity. It's the same with the trips to space, South Pole, mount Everest etc. Spaffing money up the wall and polluting every last corner of the planet just to be able to say "I've done something you haven't" down the polo club. Twats.

And the other two are enabling this shit by owning and piloting this piece of shit submersible principally to rinse stupid rich c*nts (I don't believe for a second that any serious scientific research goes on with that underwater shitbox). The only one who I feel sorry for is the young lad who, at 19, is on the borderline of "should have known better", the other 4 are well past that. As has been said above, as usual the tax payer bears the multimillion cost of looking for these rich morons with planes, ships and submarines out looking for them. If it had been 5 poor kids blown offshore in a dinghy they would have been lucky to get the local lifeboat out.

In summary, fuck em.

Fucking hell. I hope I never find myself in a position where I can be so heartless.

[Seebab]

I shouldn't have come in this thread to be honest. Incredible how judgemental people can be about 5 people who must be going through hell right now. The way BBC are announcing countdowns is highly disturbing as well.

Hope they get found.

[rob1966]

I agree with Rob I think. Every person in that vessel knew the risks involved in getting inside of it. Rob mentions it refers to dying 3 times on one page, so they are fully aware if they get in it they might die. I'd have sympathy if there was a genuine reason for them going dowen there other than going down because they can afford to.

Mike Reiss talking about it, you sign a massive waiver that constantly mentions death

https://twitter.com/BBCBreakfast/status/1671051689686896640?s=20

"You sign a massive waiver that lists one way after another that you could die on the trip," Mike Reiss told the BBC. "They mention death three times on page one, so it's never far from your mind."

Reiss took a trip on OceanGate Expeditions' Titan submersible in 2022 and said Tuesday: "As I was getting onto the sub, that was my thought: 'Well, this could be the end.'

"So nobody who's in this situation was caught off guard. You all know what you are getting into."

https://www.insider.com/titanic-submersible-former-passenger-waiver-page-1-death-3-times-2023-6

Its being reported now that the thing wasn't even certified    They're loaded, they could have paid £10 million for a properly certified sub and had no issues.

[Rob Dylan]

Its sad when anyone dies, but if someone did something absolutely stupid, like they walked up to a lion in the wild and got killed, you'd think "stupid bastard, serves you right". Same as when I welded a sign to an LPG cage, if that had blown up, its was my own stupid fault. Anyone who chooses to go down to those depths in that cock arsed submarine is an idiot, especially when there are proper submersibles available. I don't for one minute think they deserve to die, but when you are so reckless and then that recklessness puts others who have to try and save you at risk, then no sympathy. I just hope none of the rescuers gets hurt.

I do have sympathy with the families who are losing loved ones, they'll never get over it, especially the mother of the 19yr old.

This was risky but not equivalent to "walking up to a lion in the wild". I doubt anyone will be risking their life to save them because it's not possible for anyone to get down that deep. I just don't understand the mentality of insisting on telling the world how someone who's died deserves no sympathy. If you follow this to its logical conclusion you end up having no sympathy for anyone who puts themself in any kind of risky situation whatsoever.

[Rob Dylan]

Fucking hell. I hope I never find myself in a position where I can be so heartless.

Yep, this argument is basically that because they're rich, they deserve it. Also it's really grim to see people on here complaining about spending 'taxpayers money' on trying to save people from suffocating to death. It's a very Tory, Daily Mail attitude.

[rob1966]

This was risky but not equivalent to "walking up to a lion in the wild". I doubt anyone will be risking their life to save them because it's not possible for anyone to get down that deep. I just don't understand the mentality of insisting on telling the world how someone who's died deserves no sympathy. If you follow this to its logical conclusion you end up having no sympathy for anyone who puts themself in any kind of risky situation whatsoever.

Take a look at the sub and tell me you'd go on Sefton Park lake in it, never mind 13,000ft down? They could have bought a proper certified sub that is capable of going to the Titanic for £10 million. Instead they get in an uncertified tub, sign a waiver that constantly mentions death, they were reckless idiots.

[Rob Dylan]

Take a look at the sub and tell me you'd go on Sefton Park lake in it, never mind 13,000ft down? They could have bought a proper certified sub that is capable of going to the Titanic for £10 million. Instead they get in an uncertified tub, sign a waiver that constantly mentions death, they were reckless idiots.

Doing something reckless or idiotic doesn't make you any less human or not deserving of sympathy. Obviously someone who ends up in a tragic situation through no fault of there own deserves more sympathy, but where is the cutoff point? People do lots of things that I think are risky and would never do, but how do you decide which things are too risky?

[Red-Soldier]

The sub looks like something my mates dad would knock up in his home workshop.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

One thing is certain.  That company might be owned by a billionaire, but I bet that waiver doesn't hold up to another billionaire's lawyers.

I bet that it does, they won't have just rocked up and signed on the spot & everybody on that thing got in knowing that they're about to do something that is on the very edge.

i've just done a quick calculation on zip wire cable (i know it's down to how much load it can hold/take) but 2 miles of steel zip wire 12mm galvanised would cost £23,000

so surely for a stronger cable it's not out of the realms of their budget?

At $250,000 a seat, you would think they had enough left over to cover safety.

[liverbloke]

Doing something reckless or idiotic doesn't make you any less human or not deserving of sympathy. Obviously someone who ends up in a tragic situation through no fault of there own deserves more sympathy, but where is the cutoff point? People do lots of things that I think are risky and would never do, but how do you decide which things are too risky?

i think poor judgment is a fairer assessment

i only think one person on here (and not rob by the way) is not bothered whether they live or die, but you have to question the foolhardiness of their actions after reading the waiver

[butchersdog]

I've visited Auschwitz. Not exactly comparable to be sure, but not too dissimilar either. Both are the sites of human tragedy.

That’s the comparison I thought of too. I would go to Auschwitz, the difference for me is that there is a lesson from history at Auschwitz, in terms of what humans beings do to each other, genocide etc. The Titanic feels a bit different to me, these trips aren’t exactly going down there to pay their respects as far as I can tell. I don’t know, it feels very uncomfortable to me. Again though, I wouldn’t wish any ill on the people stuck down there, I just don’t get why you’d want to do it.

[S]

Jesus, this thread makes for some bleak reading.

I don’t understand how you see people ignorantly wasting money and are therefore totally uncaring about those same people suffocating, alone at the bottom of the ocean. They’re selfish and wasteful with their money so therefore you’re okay with them dying a horrendous death? I’m not sure how you can call out someone’s ethical values while holding a viewpoint like that.

[Red Beret]

I bet that it does, they won't have just rocked up and signed on the spot & everybody on that thing got in knowing that they're about to do something that is on the very edge.

It depends. If the waiver neglects to mention they're using a vehicle that isn't certified, then to my non-legal mind the wavier immediately collapses.

Going on a trip like this is fraught with danger. It's natural to accept there is a risk of death, but it is the operator's job to minimise that risk. If they have played down the deficiencies of the machine, it's safety apparatus etc, then I'd say the surivivors or the families of the deceased (should it come to that) have a case that the travellers would not have signed the waiver if they had been made fully aware of the situation.

i think poor judgment is a fairer assessment

i only think one person on here (and not rob by the way) is not bothered whether they live or die, but you have to question the foolhardiness of their actions after reading the waiver

People do questionable stuff all the time. People often try to stay the night on Hilbre island for example, and often the coastguard have to come out and get them. That costs taxpayers money, mounting a rescue that shouldn't need to be made - because people took an unnecessary risk. Okay, the risk is marginal compared to diving on the Titanic, and they're doing it illegally. I'm just pointing out that you don't have to be a billionaire to consciously take unnecessary risks that can get you into a tight spot.

[Red Beret]

That’s the comparison I thought of too. I would go to Auschwitz, the difference for me is that there is a lesson from history at Auschwitz, in terms of what humans beings do to each other, genocide etc. The Titanic feels a bit different to me, these trips aren’t exactly going down there to pay their respects as far as I can tell. I don’t know, it feels very uncomfortable to me. Again though, I wouldn’t wish any ill on the people stuck down there, I just don’t get why you’d want to do it.

As I've said in this thread, I've been fascinated by the Titanic since I was a child. A part of me would love to see the wreck with my own eyes - but I also know the human tragedy would hit me very hard if I ever did.

I can't say whether these rich people would respond in the same way, or whether they're treating it as some kind of freak show. But I know my views on the issue have changed since I was a child, and that I would treat it as a pilgrimage to pay my respects.

And you never know - a rich person seeing Titanic up close might be affected deeply enough to want to become a better person.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

It depends. If the waiver neglects to mention they're using a vehicle that isn't certified, then to my non-legal mind the wavier immediately collapses.

Going on a trip like this is fraught with danger. It's natural to accept there is a risk of death, but it is the operator's job to minimise that risk. If they have played down the deficiencies of the machine, it's safety apparatus etc, then I'd say the surivivors or the families of the deceased (should it come to that) have a case that the travellers would not have signed the waiver if they had been made fully aware of the situation.

People do questionable stuff all the time. People often try to stay the night on Hilbre island for example, and often the coastguard have to come out and get them. That costs taxpayers money, mounting a rescue that shouldn't need to be made - because people took an unnecessary risk. Okay, the risk is marginal compared to diving on the Titanic, and they're doing it illegally. I'm just pointing out that you don't have to be a billionaire to consciously take unnecessary risks that can get you into a tight spot.

They knew that they were doing something that is on the edge, it's safer to go into Space.

Edit: I posted this before seeing the sub, wtf were they thinking, idiots the lot of them.

[CheshireDave]

and that I would treat it as a pilgrimage to pay my respects.

Why the Titanic though and not another maritime disaster? There has been dozens of ships sunk in which hundreds of people died in the 20th century.

Are people so interested in it because of the film?

[liverbloke]

As I've said in this thread, I've been fascinated by the Titanic since I was a child. A part of me would love to see the wreck with my own eyes - but I also know the human tragedy would hit me very hard if I ever did.

I can't say whether these rich people would respond in the same way, or whether they're treating it as some kind of freak show. But I know my views on the issue have changed since I was a child, and that I would treat it as a pilgrimage to pay my respects.

And you never know - a rich person seeing Titanic up close might be affected deeply enough to want to become a better person.

i don't know about that...

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Fucking hell, that looks like a film prop, not a real submersible.

Black Mirror did a better job.

[Nogg3000]

Can’t help but think mankind is getting blasé about the deep ocean and space flight with all these extreme tours springing up. Something like this was inevitably going to happen, hope with this incident we take stock and leave those frontiers to science and professionals for the time being.

[Red Beret]

Why the Titanic though and not another maritime disaster? There has been dozens of ships sunk in which hundreds of people died in the 20th century.

Are people so interested in it because of the film?

I can't speak for other people. I became fascinated with the Titanic over 40 years ago, before it had even been discovered. And there have been other films other than Cameron's piece of soap opera guff.

i don't know about that...

Me neither, but I live in hope.

[liverbloke]

I can't speak for other people. I became fascinated with the Titanic over 40 years ago, before it had even been discovered. And there have been other films other than Cameron's piece of soap opera guff.

Me neither, but I live in hope.

so do i 

[AndyInVA]

i've just done a quick calculation on zip wire cable (i know it's down to how much load it can hold/take) but 2 miles of steel zip wire 12mm galvanised would cost £23,000

so surely for a stronger cable it's not out of the realms of their budget?

My feeling is that cable is too deep to be practical. 2 miles of cable would have to be on lots of drums mounted on the deck and then each section connected to the next as the submersible went down every 300m or so.

Also it does seem the fail safe seems very simple, ditch the weights and it comes to the surface.

Hard to imagine what happened, oxygen failure and they all died early or mechanical failure and they are already crushed.

Does not seem to be a good way out at that depth at all. Very risky proposition in any submersible never mind one put together on the cheap

[Peabee]

My feeling is that cable is too deep to be practical. 2 miles of cable would have to be on lots of drums mounted on the deck and then each section connected to the next as the submersible went down every 300m or so.

Also it does seem the fail safe seems very simple, ditch the weights and it comes to the surface.

Hard to imagine what happened, oxygen failure and they all died early or mechanical failure and they are already crushed.

Does not seem to be a good way out at that depth at all. Very risky proposition in any submersible never mind one put together on the cheap

Yeah, these sound plausible.

As you say, surely there's a fail-safe like all subs. But it sounds like they operate under no regulation. Some of the parts outside the main structure were bought at a camping store.

[WillG.LFC]

Absolute divvies, it's risky doing this in a top of the line sub. This is just stupidity

[Snail]

I've visited Auschwitz. Not exactly comparable to be sure, but not too dissimilar either. Both are the sites of human tragedy.

No, you’re right. It’s very, very dissimilar.

[Nogg3000]

My feeling is that cable is too deep to be practical. 2 miles of cable would have to be on lots of drums mounted on the deck and then each section connected to the next as the submersible went down every 300m or so.

Also it does seem the fail safe seems very simple, ditch the weights and it comes to the surface.

At those sort depths and distances, even the required wires get complex due to self weight hanging through the water. As an example - check out the below, the wire alone would be 300T not to meantime the crane or winch required to house all that.

If they are down there and stuck, the only hope they have is another sub or ROV finds them and releases them.

https://vertikal.net/en/news/story/6324/the-worlds-largest-wire-rope?acceptCookies=1

[Nogg3000]

In addition, it’s interesting that the sub’s pressure housing is a tube rather than a sphere. All the other deep water subs (iirc) are sphere designs for the pressure resistance. I’m thinking it may have imploded.

[Snail]

In addition, it’s interesting that the sub’s pressure housing is a tube rather than a sphere. All the other deep water subs (iirc) are sphere designs for the pressure resistance. I’m thinking it may have imploded.

Grim as it is to say it, this would be the preferable outcome over sitting at the bottom of the ocean for days waiting for death.

[Red Beret]

No, you’re right. It’s very, very dissimilar.

I think you misread what I said, or are you being sarcastic?

They're both mass graves, and we've all seen the images of idiots mucking around and taking selfies at Holocaust memorial sites.

In addition, it’s interesting that the sub’s pressure housing is a tube rather than a sphere. All the other deep water subs (iirc) are sphere designs for the pressure resistance. I’m thinking it may have imploded.

I noticed that too. The whole thing seems to have been cobbled together on the cheap. It looks more like an old fashioned bathyscaphe rather than a modern submersible.

EDIT: that said, Alvin was built in 1964, had it's pressure hull replaced with a titanium one in 1974, and still looks far more capable this thing that's been knocked together.

[thejbs]

I can't speak for other people. I became fascinated with the Titanic over 40 years ago, before it had even been discovered. And there have been other films other than Cameron's piece of soap opera guff.

Me neither, but I live in hope.

Yeah, if anything, Cameron's film put me off it.  But I've always been fascinated with the story of it - plus it helps that it was built in Ireland.

[Peabee]

Grim as it is to say it, this would be the preferable outcome over sitting at the bottom of the ocean for days waiting for death.

They'd lose consciousness with the latter, instead of being agonisingly crushed to death but then at least it would be quick.

If they have started to panic then they may have a lot less oxygen than being predicted.

[Red Beret]

Yeah, if anything, Cameron's film put me off it.  But I've always been fascinated with the story of it - plus it helps that it was built in Ireland.

Aye. I visited the Titanic story when I was in Belfast a few years ago. I got surprisingly very emotional when I boarded the SS Nomadic. As I said, it felt very much like a pilgrimage to me.

Also, I liked how the museum focussed on H&W's history of shipbuilding, and celebrated the construction of Olympic class ships and the people who built them, rather than dwelling needlessly on the disaster. If people want to focus on the sinking, there are ample resources out there.

I love history, and Titanic was the gateway to my fascination with ocean liners in general.

[theredguy03]

Always forget how big the Atlantic Ocean actually is size and depth wise and how searching it is a challenge in itself.

Until there's an official confirmation, hoping there's a happy end to this story.