Topic: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara

[disgraced cake]

I think the 21/22 team was better than the 19/20 team personally.

It was a better squad but not a better side for me. Individually, I don't think anyone was really better than they were a few years prior, we were just more experienced, which allowed us another great season. Having a bigger squad obviously helped us win the League Cup and FA Cup too. Robertson for example, from 2017 until the end of the title winning season, for me was the greatest full back around. Since then though I don't think he ever really got back to the same level, and I think you could say that for most others too. Van Dijk for example, even though him not reaching that very top level again was down to the injury. Alisson is the only one I'd argue has actually gotten even better.

Always found it funny that Salah's worst goal scoring season was the Champions League winning, 97 points season. The Covid season and 22/23 we were pretty rubbish and he still scored more goals. When we won the league, it was the least amount of goals Salah/Bobby/Mane ever got as a unit, another interesting stat.

[Draex]

I think it might have

I'd agree that that's my classic Klopp side as well but I think that's correct, which I'm really surprised by. Alisson got injured against Norwich on the opening day of the 19/20 season so Adrian came in for a while and then we must have injuries to certain other players once he returned. A bit mad really.

We weren't even brilliant in that final either it is mental that lineup only played 1 game together.

I think what was great was we'd change a player or two and we'd play the same way, it was this red swarm, I've never seen an intensity like it, the free flowing football was a joy to watch and it's what I remember the most from Klopps time here what a privilege to see that team.

And Thiago is a better midfielder than all three of that line up, yet I wouldn't change any of them for him.

[killer-heels]

Absolutely. A well-oiled pressing machine that was incredibly tight at the back and that moved forward at lightning speed. Ultimately, Thiago came with a huge reputation but at the end of the day we're looking at one good season out of four.

If we'd signed him two or three years earlier and built the team around his strengths it would probably have been a different story. But for me, he never seemed to have the pace or physicality to really fit into the midfield and seemed to end up making our play slower and more ponderous. It's significant that even in his first season, all the great performances - and there definitely were some - came without him in the team. Still, good luck to him wherever he goes from here.

Think I read somewhere a couple of seasons ago that the 18/19 had the best all round underlying numbers of all of Klopp’s sides including the league winning season and 21/22 (albeit the attacking numbers of 21/22 were off the charts).

[Mr Dilkington]

Think I read somewhere a couple of seasons ago that the 18/19 had the best all round underlying numbers of all of Klopp’s sides including the league winning season and 21/22 (albeit the attacking numbers of 21/22 were off the charts).

18/19 was better defensively for sure but in terms of underlying numbers it was:

18/19 - 1.18 xGD/90
21/22 - 1.45 xGD/90

Unfortunately in 21/22 City were at 1.68 xGD/90 lol.

[Samie]

Can't you fuckers just not wish him good luck and say goodbyes intead of arguinig over nothing?

[Mr Dilkington]

Can't you fuckers just not wish him good luck and say goodbyes intead of arguinig over nothing?

Don't think he reads RAWK mate 

[Draex]

Can't you fuckers just not wish him good luck and say goodbyes intead of arguinig over nothing?

Whose arguing? Just some old folks reminiscing over some beautiful years.

[Giono]

Thiago is an amazing player. But I never understood why we let Gini leave supposedly as he wanted a longer contract at 30 than we wanted, and then went and signed such a fragile older player for a multiyear contract. It seemed very out of character for the organization to do that. 

[Bread]

I seem to remember he said he didn't want to go to Saudi. Wonder if he'll have changed his mind now after the year he's had though.

Think he'll end up back at Barcelona. They love hoovering up the aging freebies, and they don't exactly have the luxury of being able to splash the cash to bolster their squad. Maybe even end up selling a Pedri/Gavi to help with the finances a little bit.

[Chris~]

Fair comment on the lack on minutes. Think second half of that season he started the vast majority of games though and was integral to a quadruple run. I personally think calling him a nice addition understates his influence.

Just like the general perception of that team, I think Thiago suffers from how it ended. We were a Courtois masterclass and a Villa collapse away from history and for my money it wouldn't have been possible without Thiago.

I'm pretty down compared to most people I guess on midfielders who's main attribute is getting the ball between boxes, especially in a Klopp side. I'm sure others would rather players like Xavi, Alonso and Modric much higher than me for example. I just don't think it's as important as other attributes/roles

[Pistolero]

Pound for pound one of the most disappointing signings the club made in recent years...great footballer yep...but crocked when we signed him ...crocked when we released him....and  on the whole crocked in-between......farewell Spain's/Brazil's/Italy's Prince..... we'll always have that banana shot against someone I can't quite recall at the moment. ..

[Mutton Geoff]

Pound for pound one of the most disappointing signings the club made in recent years...great footballer yep...but crocked when we signed him ...crocked when we released him....and  on the whole crocked in-between......farewell Spain's/Brazil's/Italy's Prince..... we'll always have that banana shot against someone I can't quite recall at the moment. ..

Arthur Melo says Hold My Beer

[MonsLibpool]

I said we should have sold him last summer because I felt it was the right time. Some of these things are not personal. No player will play here forever and we have to know when to sell players rather than let them walk for free.

Financially,  his season has been a huge waste of money and it's not like it wasn't predictable. The transfer fee and wages could have been invested in someone younger that would had a season to adapt. Just a waste of money and time (this season that is).

[farawayred]

Arthur Melo says Hold My Beer

And he says it to Harry Kewell, who has a smirk on his face like "line up, chap".

[Fromola]

Thiago is an amazing player. But I never understood why we let Gini leave supposedly as he wanted a longer contract at 30 than we wanted, and then went and signed such a fragile older player for a multiyear contract. It seemed very out of character for the organization to do that.

Thiago signing was when the transfer strategy started moving away from the winning formula.

We needed a younger version of Gini/Thiago that summer (and the next two after that). Someone like Mac Allister when we finally addressed it.

[Caligula?]

I'll never forget that goal against Porto. I don't think I've ever seen a Liverpool player strike the ball as eloquently as that.

[killer-heels]

18/19 was better defensively for sure but in terms of underlying numbers it was:

18/19 - 1.18 xGD/90
21/22 - 1.45 xGD/90

Unfortunately in 21/22 City were at 1.68 xGD/90 lol.

Yeah I think in 21/22 we were producing ridiculous numbers in an attacking sense. Still would make the case that a younger, pre-Virgil ACL injury, peak Mane and Bobby 18/19 side were the better team.

Its interesting because a lot of City fans cite the 18/19 team as their best team, even compared to last seasons treble winners (they believe 18/19 team was more exciting to watch).

[Fromola]

Its interesting because a lot of City fans cite the 18/19 team as their best team, even compared to last seasons treble winners (they believe 18/19 team was more exciting to watch).

I think Liverpool and City were both at their best that year.

There's a chance if it wasn't for that VAR call against Spurs at the end of the CL tie that City win the lot that season. Although the flip side is the extra games could have made the difference in terms of them having a slip up in the league to let us in. And we'd have played them CL final.

I thought we'd lost our solidity in 21/22. Gave away a lot of two goal leads and were easier to score against, went behind a lot more. We were brutally solid in 19/20.

[killer-heels]

I think Liverpool and City were both at their best that year.

There's a chance if it wasn't for that VAR call against Spurs at the end of the CL tie that City win the lot that season. Although the flip side is the extra games could have made the difference in terms of them having a slip up in the league to let us in. And we'd have played them CL final.

I would normally put last year's City side as their best one because they won the treble, but a lot more than I thought cite that 18/19 team as their best. Its just hilarious and infuriating if that is indeed true that low and behold, our best side is created at the same time as their best side. I dont think any one of Guardiola's sides since 18/19 would have stopped our 18/19 side from winning a league.

[MonsLibpool]

I would normally put last year's City side as their best one because they won the treble, but a lot more than I thought cite that 18/19 team as their best. Its just hilarious and infuriating if that is indeed true that low and behold, our best side is created at the same time as their best side. I dont think any one of Guardiola's sides since 18/19 would have stopped our 18/19 side from winning a league.

Haaland has taken something away from them. They were a lot more balanced from 2017-2019 and they had more squad depth and variety to their game. They are a bit stale now.

[duvva 💅]

A real shame about the injuries. Definitely feels like a case of what could have been if he’d been able to stay fit.

I am glad we signed him though as he Still played some great games and was a joy to watch when fit.

Good luck to him

[Jookie]

phenomenal player who was the beating heart of the best team Klopp had in his 9 years at the club.

This is a mad shout.

Thiago has always been a very good player. He was for us when fit. He’s never been consistently World Class in my opinion. For me World class is someone who could challenge to be in best World XI for a period of time. So best 1 or 2 players in your position.

Putting that aside I think you are mixing up best versus my personal favourite with the 21/22 team. 21/22 was an excellent side but it was the last gasps of elite performance by many of that team. Firmino, Mane, Henderson, Fabinho, Matip and Thiago himself have never got close to that level since. It was those players straining the last ounce out that they had as top level players and it showed in the end.

19/20 Liverpool was miles better. Better defensively as a team, better shape and physicality in midfield, and a forward line that whilst not putting up crazy number was an elite combo of 3 players. Arguably the clubs greatest triumvirate of attacking players. Best I’ve seen anyway.

The 19/20’team is the only team to defeat City over the course of a season in 5 seasons. Likely 6. They didn’t just beat them. They broke City’s will before Xmas that season. Through sheer force of will and skill to put together an unprecedented start to a season.

But going back to 22/23 and Thiago being the heart beat of that team. Didn’t play a minute in the League Cup run. Was key in FA Cup SF and final and CL run. In league he had a good season but only played 1537 minutes. It’s the equivalent of 17 x 90 minutes. He started only 12 PL games and didn’t play in 14 all together.

How’s that the beating heart of the 21/22 team?

I say none of this to criticise Thiago. It’s mainly because I’m amazed someone holds this opinion about the 21/22 team and Thiago’s role in it.

[Jookie]

I would normally put last year's City side as their best one because they won the treble, but a lot more than I thought cite that 18/19 team as their best. Its just hilarious and infuriating if that is indeed true that low and behold, our best side is created at the same time as their best side. I dont think any one of Guardiola's sides since 18/19 would have stopped our 18/19 side from winning a league.

I agree though I think it’s a wider period. Peak City is 2017-2019 and peak Liverpool was 2018-2020. Its  probably why during that period the discrepancy in winning the big trophies wasn’t there.

[Fromola]

I would normally put last year's City side as their best one because they won the treble, but a lot more than I thought cite that 18/19 team as their best. Its just hilarious and infuriating if that is indeed true that low and behold, our best side is created at the same time as their best side. I dont think any one of Guardiola's sides since 18/19 would have stopped our 18/19 side from winning a league.

I honestly don't think City were that good last season.

The CL in general was awful last year. FA Cup they get Sheffield United in the semi and then an awful United in the final - I thought City looked there for the taking that game but United were crap. Weren't exactly convincing against Inter either.

Arsenal were top for much of the season but blew up in the run-in to let City in. City were really playing poorly either side of the World Cup. Got back in their stride of wins around March but without looking great. I'd say similar this season. It was far from a vintage treble, compared to when Barca have done it or United in 99 or Bayern.

18/19 City would dominate every game. Even 19/20 they dropped more points (we were in their heads a lot because we were winning every game) but they were still dominant in every match. They're more ruthless in front of goal with Haaland but they aren't the all dominant team they were.

[KC7]

Absolutely. A well-oiled pressing machine that was incredibly tight at the back and that moved forward at lightning speed. Ultimately, Thiago came with a huge reputation but at the end of the day we're looking at one good season out of four.

If we'd signed him two or three years earlier and built the team around his strengths it would probably have been a different story. But for me, he never seemed to have the pace or physicality to really fit into the midfield and seemed to end up making our play slower and more ponderous. It's significant that even in his first season, all the great performances - and there definitely were some - came without him in the team. Still, good luck to him wherever he goes from here.

One good season out of four, but the other three seasons have nothing to do with him.

His first season we lost all our senior CB for the second half of the season, and when the club didn't act in the January window when they wrote off the season when we were top there was nothing any of the players could do.

Second season is the one where we were good as a team. We got our CB back so could function again, though losing Gini meant we were light in midfield, and ultimately that cost us in the end as it was running on fumes by the end of the season. We played Fabinho vs Villa on his own, a move I felt was a mistake as weakening the midfield and leaving a first team player in there means he has to do more, and that's when an injury is more likely to be incurred (he had only just started against Spurs three days earlier in a very tough game). Wouldn't have been a popular opinion at the time but I didn't want any of our first choice midfield three anywhere near that Villa game, just felt we were too light in midfield depth to try and go all out for everything. There was of course that last day league drama, but still, going to Paris the midfield was goosed.

The next season the midfield was finished bar Thiago who did the work of two/three men. Think we knackered him in that season which saw him break down compelety meaning he didn't feature this one (bar a cameo).

Think ultimately he was sold a pup. Wonder if regrets his choice. We didn't strengthen like a competent club would: Jan '21 CBs, Summer '22 midfielders, and that ruined not just three of Thiago's 4 seasons but also Jurgen's.

[Fromola]

One good season out of four, but the other three seasons have nothing to do with him.

His first season we lost all our senior CB for the second half of the season, and when the club didn't act in the January window when they wrote off the season when we were top there was nothing any of the players could do.

Second season is the one where we were good as a team. We got our CB back so could function again, though losing Gini meant we were light in midfield, and ultimately that cost us in the end as it was running on fumes by the end of the season. We played Fabinho vs Villa on his own, a move I felt was a mistake as weakening the midfield and leaving a first team player in there means he has to do more, and that's when an injury is more likely to be incurred (he had only just started against Spurs three days earlier in a very tough game). Wouldn't have been a popular opinion at the time but I didn't want any of our first choice midfield three anywhere near that Villa game, just felt we were too light in midfield depth to try and go all out for everything. There was of course that last day league drama, but still, going to Paris the midfield was goosed.

The next season the midfield was finished bar Thiago who did the work of two/three men. Think we knackered him in that season which saw him break down compelety meaning he didn't feature this one (bar a cameo).

Think ultimately he was sold a pup. Wonder if regrets his choice. We didn't strengthen like a competent club would: Jan '21 CBs, Summer '22 midfielders, and that ruined not just three of Thiago's 4 seasons but also Jurgen's.

Season One Thiago did help us get top 4. When he did get back in the team it coincided with our winning run (once we got Fabinho and Thiago together in midfield) towards the end of the season.

Season Two he was vintage and when he did get injuries it hurt us. A fully fit Thiago maybe makes the difference in Paris.

Season Three he's in a midfield that's lost its legs and he's older himself and injured a lot.

Season Four I said at the start was make or break for him in terms of his Liverpool legacy (i.e. his last year). He's been injured all season, that's his legacy. Had he stayed fit most of the season, maybe he makes the difference in the league or in Europe. We've missed his quality, experience and composure. Not having him there has meant having to overuse Mac.

[KC7]

I honestly don't think City were that good last season.

The CL in general was awful last year. FA Cup they get Sheffield United in the semi and then an awful United in the final - I thought City looked there for the taking that game but United were crap. Weren't exactly convincing against Inter either.

Arsenal were top for much of the season but blew up in the run-in to let City in. City were really playing poorly either side of the World Cup. Got back in their stride of wins around March but without looking great. I'd say similar this season. It was far from a vintage treble, compared to when Barca have done it or United in 99 or Bayern.

18/19 City would dominate every game. Even 19/20 they dropped more points (we were in their heads a lot because we were winning every game) but they were still dominant in every match. They're more ruthless in front of goal with Haaland but they aren't the all dominant team they were.

They haven't been good in any season. Neither was Ben Johnson, or Lance Armstrong. Dont legitimise this cheating, manufactured Arab state backed entity.

[KC7]

Season One Thiago did help us get top 4. When he did get back in the team it coincided with our winning run (once we got Fabinho and Thiago together in midfield) towards the end of the season.

Season Two he was vintage and when he did get injuries it hurt us. A fully fit Thiago maybe makes the difference in Paris.

Season Three he's in a midfield that's lost its legs and he's older himself and injured a lot.

Season Four I said at the start was make or break for him in terms of his Liverpool legacy (i.e. his last year). He's been injured all season, that's his legacy. Had he stayed fit most of the season, maybe he makes the difference in the league or in Europe. We've missed his quality, experience and composure. Not having him there has meant having to overuse Mac.

Mac was being overused as he was being asked to "do a job" as a 6. We are well stacked in the 8s, Mac's natural position, and Mac would have been fine had we brought in a quality 6 so as not have him come back there. As phenomenal as Thiago is that's not his role, he's the guy who plays off the 6. The 6 is a taxing role physically, especially in a Klopp side which presses up so they have to cover the counters, which makes it all the more perplexing Jurgen neglected the position.

The biggest killer has been the drop off of Fabinho. When that happened the midfield stopped functioning, and without defensive protection in there the defence was more exposed. The 22-23 season was Ali's busiest with us by a country mile, while Trent, who was still the same Trent just he was no longer getting any cover from midfield, was getting done constantly. Thiago did his best, but a 6 he ain't, it requires an athlete who can run all day and understand the role.

[RyanBabel19]

One of the most technically gifted players i've ever seen, just an absolute joy to watch. A shame about the injuries but unfortunately it happens.

Good luck to Thiago wherever he decides to go next, he's a fucking outstanding player and I for one am glad I got to see him in a Liverpool shirt. It's not often we sign already established superstar players so it's been incredible to watch someone with such prestige come to the club and display such a high level in the premier league, what a player!!

Football is cruel and injuries are one of the most frustrating parts but they are something that often cant be helped. The lad is one of the best of his generation and he's done it all at the highest level

[Chris~]

The narrative of poor Thiago for 22/23 is mad given how good we ended up being for near half a season as soon as he got injured and wasn't starting anymore.

[Mighty_Red]

If you are looking to asses Thiago's time here, don't just look at his performances or simply compare results between 18-20 and 21-22. His signing signalled the direction we wanted to go down in midfield, one we kind of had to go in order to evolve and be successful.

Even in his absence I think his influence is there in this team but of course we would be so much better if he was actually playing.

It's a shame it's come to this but I think its still been worth it, just to see some of his ability on the pitch even if only fleetingly.

[Yorkykopite]

Loved watching him before he came to Liverpool. Felt proud to have seen him play with the Liver Bird on his chest. Feel I know football more from seeing him. One of the very best. Thanks Thiago.

[GreatEx]

Indeed and if you start to add up those salaries for Thiago, Hendo, Fabinho, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Keita you can see why we didn't sign more midfielders, 3 of those all had terrible injury records eventually, you're totally right not replacing Gini with someone as robust as him was a failure of the club.

Hindsight is certainly a wonderful thing.

Not sure I'd call that hindsight, many/most of us were screaming out for midfield reinforcements. "Criminal negligence" got an airing or two.

[GreatEx]

18/19 was better defensively for sure but in terms of underlying numbers it was:

18/19 - 1.18 xGD/90
21/22 - 1.45 xGD/90

Unfortunately in 21/22 City were at 1.68 xGD/90 lol.

What about, you know, actual goals, wins, losses, that kind of legacy fan stuff?

[RayPhilAlan]

Thiago is an amazing player. But I never understood why we let Gini leave supposedly as he wanted a longer contract at 30 than we wanted, and then went and signed such a fragile older player for a multiyear contract. It seemed very out of character for the organization to do that.

Gini did nothing after he left us, so you'd have to say we were right not to give him the contract he wanted.

And I guess Jurgen, like any football fan, just loved watching Thiago too much not to sign him. Maybe it's what happens when the nerds have the keys taken off them?

For me, I loved how Thiago (and a few others, like Ali, Trent and Mo) really stepped up their game towards the end of his first season and dragged us to Champions League qualification. Regrets? That Richarlison tackle in his first derby, though worth pointing out that even after that moment, Thiago played on, and played the pass of the match if it wasn't for Sadio Mane's sleeve being offside or something.

[KC7]

What's with this "hindsight" suggestion?

The only thing worse than making up that the need for midfielders was merely "hindsight" in Summer 22 is doing likewise for CBs in January 2021.

Both windows, and inactivity in brining in the required transfers, banjaxed the seasons.

Summer 22 was bad, but absolutely nothing from any team touches January 2021.

Worth repeating; Top of the league, 1 injury prone CB left (Matip, who too would be out for the season during the window), players who worked their ass off to get us into that position, Robbo saying on LFCTV in late December that having done so hopefully help was coming in. There was no help coming in.

Jurgen stating signing a CB was "unlikely", to effectively end the season ot a team top of the league, I still cannot wrap my head around. It's the one question above any I'd love him to answer without any covering things up in regard to the current ownership. He doesnt complain, that's not in his nature, hes an employers dream, but it just leaves fans in the dark about what is going on. That was disgraceful. How the players would have felt knowing their efforts up to that point were in vain, and not because of on the field stuff.

Back to Summee of 22, and this alleged "hindsight".

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2022/08/26/liverpool-seek-new-midfielder-jurgen-klopp-admits-got-wrong/

Liverpool to seek new midfielder after Jurgen Klopp admits he got it wrong (26 August 2022)


Jurgen Klopp has held a clear-the-air summit with his players and a “find a midfielder” conference with his scouts in an attempt to reverse Liverpool’s slow start to the season.

After suggesting Liverpool did not need to reinforce in midfield during pre-season, Klopp now admits the club are proactively trying to recruit before Thursday’s deadline.

The immediate concern, however, is securing the first league win of the Premier League campaign. Klopp gathered his squad after the defeat by Manchester United to re-impose the standards set during his five-year tenure.

On his midfield recruitment about-turn, Klopp said injuries had forced him into a rethink.

“I know we have had this discussion since it all started and I am the one who said we don’t need a midfielder and I was wrong. That’s the situation,” Klopp said. “But the specific point doesn’t change – we will do something but it has to be the right one. We will see.”





We then brought in....Melo on loan, a repeat of the Kabak trick.

[RedG13]

What about, you know, actual goals, wins, losses, that kind of legacy fan stuff?

Because actual goals is a worse predictor and measure of how good u are at that stuff

[SamLad]

this thread is classic Groundhog Day at this point.

the same 2 viewpoints, again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again

[Sheer Magnetism]

One good season out of four, but the other three seasons have nothing to do with him.

His first season we lost all our senior CB for the second half of the season, and when the club didn't act in the January window when they wrote off the season when we were top there was nothing any of the players could do.

Second season is the one where we were good as a team. We got our CB back so could function again, though losing Gini meant we were light in midfield, and ultimately that cost us in the end as it was running on fumes by the end of the season. We played Fabinho vs Villa on his own, a move I felt was a mistake as weakening the midfield and leaving a first team player in there means he has to do more, and that's when an injury is more likely to be incurred (he had only just started against Spurs three days earlier in a very tough game). Wouldn't have been a popular opinion at the time but I didn't want any of our first choice midfield three anywhere near that Villa game, just felt we were too light in midfield depth to try and go all out for everything. There was of course that last day league drama, but still, going to Paris the midfield was goosed.

The next season the midfield was finished bar Thiago who did the work of two/three men. Think we knackered him in that season which saw him break down compelety meaning he didn't feature this one (bar a cameo).

Think ultimately he was sold a pup. Wonder if regrets his choice. We didn't strengthen like a competent club would: Jan '21 CBs, Summer '22 midfielders, and that ruined not just three of Thiago's 4 seasons but also Jurgen's.

I didn't say it was his 'fault', just that we got one good season out of four, which is indisputable really. But in general, Thiago never had legs. He needed to be next to someone to do his running (and preferably his defending) for him even in Germany.

That's why he looked so bad next to Gini in his first season and generally looked best when next to Fabinho and one of Henderson or Milner, or in the more measured pace of European ties. When those players weren't able to cover for his lack of running and tendency to settle around the centre circle (ie. in his first and third season), our midfield were sitting ducks. Because he couldn't do the work of one person at Premier League pace, let alone two or three. It's also why I don't think he would have got back into the team this year regardless.

People will argue that point but just look at last season: Thiago played in pretty much all our worst performances and barely any of our best. For all the stick they've taken, our midfield seemed to function fine with Henderson and Fabinho in the Man United, Leeds and Bournemouth thumpings, the away win at high-flying Newcastle or the 2-2 with top-of-the-table Arsenal - all games Thiago wasn't playing. These are facts.

Because actual goals is a worse predictor and measure of how good u are at that stuff

But we aren't predicting, we're looking back. One team won a league title and a Champions League and one team didn't. They don't give out trophies for xG!

[RedG13]

But we aren't predicting, we're looking back. One team won a league title and a Champions League and one team didn't. They don't give out trophies for xG!

Basically was said 21/22 was the best team under Klopp data wise that true regardless of trophies