Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"

[redmark]

From last night

https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1166006211331928064

So the Lib Dems aren't the only "minor party" setting Labour conditions for their support.

A brief look at Twitter suggests Plaid's statement has gone down as well with Corbynistas as you'd expect.

And yet the meeting seems to have gone quite well ('successful', according to Adam Price), rather than the 'futile' meeting Brand suggested.

Partly, perhaps, because his one line summary of Price's 5 statements on twitter was a bit simplistic and possibly misleading.


Putting public interest before party interest is key today and in the next few weeks.  Finding common ground requires all sides to listen and compromise to stop a Crash Out catastrophe and resolve the whole Brexit Crisis 1/5

Labour has set out its ideas: a) Jeremy Corbyn as the single (and non-negotiable) candidate for Caretaker PM b) for the single purpose of calling a pre-brexit election.  We are open to a) but want flexibility around b) 2/5

Calling a General Election solves little currently and possibly even facilitates a No Deal Brexit unless Labour changes its policy as Tories will have clearer message.  3/5

If Labour were open to changing its policy then the door could also be opened to a Broader Remain Alliance to take on Tories/Brexit and win.  That is a radical opportunity I hope Jeremy Corbyn would not reject.  4/5

If Labour can’t change policy to unequivocally support Remain then we should still explore other options.  Our preferred solution is holding a Referendum first, whether via Caretaker Government or Parliament-led legislation.  Let’s work together to find something that works 5/5

[ShakaHislop]

And yet the meeting seems to have gone quite well ('successful', according to Adam Price), rather than the 'futile' meeting Brand suggested.

Partly, perhaps, because his one line summary of Price's 5 statements on twitter was a bit simplistic and possibly misleading.


Putting public interest before party interest is key today and in the next few weeks.  Finding common ground requires all sides to listen and compromise to stop a Crash Out catastrophe and resolve the whole Brexit Crisis 1/5

Labour has set out its ideas: a) Jeremy Corbyn as the single (and non-negotiable) candidate for Caretaker PM b) for the single purpose of calling a pre-brexit election.  We are open to a) but want flexibility around b) 2/5

Calling a General Election solves little currently and possibly even facilitates a No Deal Brexit unless Labour changes its policy as Tories will have clearer message.  3/5

If Labour were open to changing its policy then the door could also be opened to a Broader Remain Alliance to take on Tories/Brexit and win.  That is a radical opportunity I hope Jeremy Corbyn would not reject.  4/5

If Labour can’t change policy to unequivocally support Remain then we should still explore other options.  Our preferred solution is holding a Referendum first, whether via Caretaker Government or Parliament-led legislation.  Let’s work together to find something that works 5/5

What was misleading about Brand's Tweet when it mentioned the bit in bold?

[oldfordie]

Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson prepares to face down hardline Eurosceptics

Spoiler

Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson is to face down hardline Conservative Eurosceptics by rejecting their demands for a big Brexit renegotiation, telling EU leaders his only concern is to scrap the Irish border backstop.

Mr Johnson has reassured Angela Merkel, German chancellor, and Jean-Claude Juncker, European Commission president, that if the EU agreed changes to the backstop it would not lead to British demands for a wider rewriting of the exit treaty.

“We have been clear the changes we seek relate to the backstop,” Downing Street said yesterday, ahead of a visit to Brussels on Wednesday by David Frost, Mr Johnson’s Brexit negotiator.

Mr Johnson is therefore ready to accept a range of proposals in the withdrawal treaty — including a £39bn exit payment and a transition period during which Britain applied EU rules — if he could scrap the backstop.

“We know the Spartans are going to accuse us of betrayal at some point,” said one ally of the prime minister, referring to the hardline group of Tory Eurosceptics including former Tory leader Iain Duncan Smith.

Although the EU says it is wedded to the backstop — which avoids a hard border in Ireland by leaving Britain in a temporary customs union — Mr Johnson’s narrow focus in the talks has helped to create a more positive atmosphere in European capitals.

“What this is signalling to France and Berlin is that Johnson is not looking for a war with the EU on a swath of other issues,” said Mujtaba Rahman, managing director of the Eurasia consultancy group.

Mr Johnson, who on Tuesday spoke to European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker and Dutch prime minister Mark Rutte, knows that changes to the backstop alone will not satisfy many Tory MPs.

Mr Duncan Smith yesterday wrote in the Daily Telegraph that “simply getting rid of the backstop isn’t enough”, echoing criticisms by other Tory MPs including David Davis, former Brexit secretary, and veteran Eurosceptic Bill Cash.

[close]

https://www.ft.com/content/baadddf2-c8bd-11e9-a1f4-3669401ba76f

He'll back down from them eventually.

It's like banging your head against a brick wall. it's just bulls.. after bulls..
Very nice of Johnson for being reasonable over the other agreed terms in the backstop when he knows the one problem he demands to be dropped won't be dropped. he has 30 days to find a solution to the NI border problem, this is not just about Ireland, it's about protecting the integrity of the SM.


Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson is to face down hardline Conservative Eurosceptics by rejecting their demands for a big Brexit renegotiation, telling EU leaders his only concern is to scrap the Irish border backstop.

Mr Johnson has reassured Angela Merkel, German chancellor, and Jean-Claude Juncker, European Commission president, that if the EU agreed changes to the backstop it would not lead to British demands for a wider rewriting of the exit treaty.

“We have been clear the changes we seek relate to the backstop,” Downing Street said yesterday, ahead of a visit to Brussels on Wednesday by David Frost, Mr Johnson’s Brexit negotiator.

Mr Johnson is therefore ready to accept a range of proposals in the withdrawal treaty — including a £39bn exit payment and a transition period during which Britain applied EU rules — if he could scrap the backstop.

[redmark]

What was misleading about Brand's Tweet when it mentioned the bit in bold?

Because it didn't mention all of the bit you've bolded - calling the meeting futile completely ignored the 'other options' Price referred to. Clearly, given both the outcome and Price's statement, 'backing for Corbyn as PM' wasn't to be the only thing discussed at the meeting. The legislation-first approach also infact doesn't rule out the possibility that if and when those other options are exhausted, Labour may move to an unequivocal Remain policy* sufficient to win his backing, if Johnson forces an election rather than the opposing coalition forcing a referendum (which a number of No Deal opponents do not support).

*Not of Corbyn's choice no doubt, but party conference may force the issue.

[Elmo!]

What was misleading about Brand's Tweet when it mentioned the bit in bold?

'Cannot back Corbyn' is different to 'should still explore other options'.

[west_london_red]

BBC breaking news - parliament to be suspended from mid September.

[Zeb]

Remember when Stella Creasy hijacked the last time the Tories had a Queen's Speech? Put May off them for the rest of her time in office. It's a very polite way for a government to discover it has no majority to govern.

[Trada]

Joe Owen
‏ @jl_owen

If this is true - & Queen Speech has 5 days of debate - then Parliament is a dead zone for MPs looking to stop no deal from 11th September to 21 October...


Faisal Islam
‏Verified account @faisalislam

even if EU and Ireland completely caved and dropped the backstop, when would there be time to pass a new Withdrawal Agreement Bill? Queen’s Speech debate etc. Also Vote on QS assumes role as confidence vote. Does HM say “we will leave on Oct 31st”? Many Qs.

[killer-heels]

BBC breaking news - parliament to be suspended from mid September.

Brilliant news. MP’s finally have to earn their corn.

[gazzalfc]

Brilliant news. MP’s finally have to earn their corn.

More like the Met Police and High Court judges

Nothing like the breakdown of the democratic process to shove whatever this shitshow this already was beyond all realms of shitshowery

To be fair. This was always going to be the fastest way to the bottom.

[smicer07]

Disgraceful.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Brilliant news. MP’s finally have to earn their corn.

Not understanding this.

[Snail]

There should be riots. Honestly.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

BBC breaking news - parliament to be suspended from mid September.

Probably, not definitely

The Queen will be asked by the government to suspend Parliament just days after MPs return to work in September - and only a few weeks before the Brexit deadline.

She should really tell them to get lost, refuse and sack Johnson

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

There should be riots. Honestly.

Long overdue

[gazzalfc]

[Jiminy Cricket]

Johnson? Corrbyn? Frankly, this could refer to either of them.

[Snail]

Johnson? Corrbyn? Frankly, this could refer to either of them.

We're still doing this then?

[TepidT2O]

We're still doing this then?

It’s pertinent.

Weak opposition has allowed this to happen.

Also, anyone voting for article 50 was putting brexit purely into the hands of the tories.  They are all complicit.

[gazzalfc]

Johnson? Corrbyn? Frankly, this could refer to either of them.

Obviously Pfeffel. There is a viable deal on the table to unite an opposition to No-deal and a vote of no confidence. Jo Swinson made a massive mistake trying to push for a new labour leader.  She seems to have backed away from that now.

Now its time to find some tory MP's that are equally appalled by the potential suspension that would vote for no-confidence.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Obviously Pfeffel. There is a viable deal on the table to unite an opposition to No-deal and a vote of no confidence. Jo Swinson made a massive mistake trying to push for a new labour leader.  She seems to have backed away from that now.

Now its time to find some tory MP's that are equally appalled by the potential suspension that would vote for no-confidence.

problem is no new labour leader virtually guarantees the Tories the most seats, if there was an election and say someone like starmer was in charge labour would have a very good chance of getting the most seats, but hey let the far left gift the far right what they want so they can be all pious and virtuous and shit

[gazzalfc]

problem is no new labour leader virtually guarantees the Tories the most seats, if there was an election and say someone like starmer was in charge labour would have a very good chance of getting the most seats, but hey let the far left gift the far right what they want so they can be all pious and virtuous and shit

The Labour leader (and thus potential PM) is not selected by Labour MP's. There is a full election process. You dont just shoehorn in Ken Clake or Harriet Harman into a caretaker role and just expect labour members/voters to be happy about it. You also dont try to throw a full labour leadership contest when a snap election is just around the corner.

The far right will only be gifted seats if any election is fought on the basis that any brexit is brexit (including no-deal). What is clear is no one (except that c*nt in no 10) knows what Brexit they want. Party leaders need to stand up and put their policies on the table including immigration, Irish boarder and customs rules all backed up with a new (legally binding) referendum with the final say. 

Personally no party wants to do that as they still fall foul of the Backstop (or ripping up Good Friday Agreement), people still think they can control non-EU immigration (stirring up the racist agenda) via Brexit and still have free access to the customs union because 'they need us more than we need them'.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

but hey let the far left

What "far left"?

[Lush is the best medicine...]

What "far left"?

the people at the top of the labour party

[Snail]

What "far left"?

The people who get 99% of the stick in this thread when there's a Tory government bringing back the cane. I'm guessing.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

the people at the top of the labour party

They aren't FAR left. Thinking so just shows how well the Tory influenced press and the work Thatcher did has skewed peoples perceptions.

[Snail]

They aren't FAR left. Thinking so just shows how well the Tory influenced press and the work Thatcher did has skewed peoples perceptions.

And to think people take the piss out of Americans for describing anything vaguely good for society as "socialism".

[Jiminy Cricket]

We're still doing this then?

It remains pertinent.

Corbyn has never cared about the damage Brexit will cause the working class. He could not give a shiny shit. He continues with his desire to be PM above all other considerations. Milne is every bit as conniving as Cummings. The two leaders (and their closest advisors) are flushing the UK down the toilet. There really does need to be another party/group in control in Parliament with a PM who's main focus is to resolve this disastrous situation with Brexit. Everything else is a distraction.

[Snail]

And to think people take the piss out of Americans for describing anything vaguely good for society as "socialism".

Regardless I've caused enough arguments in here, I think people need to focus on what the government are trying to do here because it's seriously bad for everyone.

[Snail]

It remains pertinent.

Corbyn has never cared about the damage Brexit will cause the working class. He could not give a shiny shit. He continues with his desire to be PM above all other considerations. Milne is every bit as conniving as Cummings. The two leaders (and their closest advisors) are flushing the UK down the toilet. There really does need to be another party/group in control in Parliament with a PM who's main focus is to resolve this disastrous situation with Brexit. Everything else is a distraction.

Save some of that ire for Jo Swinson because she ruled out ever working with Corbyn.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Save some of that ire for Jo Swinson because she ruled out ever working with Corbyn.

She softened her position (but her original position is quite understandable - though she probably should have been less categorical about it in public - politics). And only yesterday, Plaid Cymru made clear that would not support Corbyn as PM. So, why not mention them?

[Zeb]

Regardless I've caused enough arguments in here, I think people need to focus on what the government are trying to do here because it's seriously bad for everyone.

Would recommend asking anyone you know who votes for them, or for Brexit, to stop doing that. Apart from that, this is noise.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

They aren't FAR left. Thinking so just shows how well the Tory influenced press and the work Thatcher did has skewed peoples perceptions.

they are mate, nothing to do with the media just look at their actions over the years and who they’ve supported, far left all day, some on here don’t grasp that to the vast majority they are as unappealing as boris and co, and of course the winners there won’t be them it’ll be boris and his mates, a party who’s run by stalinists, communists, Chavez supporters etc aren’t left they’re far left

[killer-heels]

Not understanding this.

All we have heard from them dickheads is that “now is not the time” when it comes to challenging the government over this. Well now, after kicking the can down the road, they have to put in a motion of no confidence.

[gazzalfc]

[jepovic]

Regardless I've caused enough arguments in here, I think people need to focus on what the government are trying to do here because it's seriously bad for everyone.

Why is it bad? Hugo Chavez, hailed by Corbyn, also suspended the parliament.

[Snail]

Why is it bad? Hugo Chavez, hailed by Corbyn, also suspended the parliament.

Weird post that. Funnily enough, I'm no fan of Chavez either.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Why is it bad? Hugo Chavez, hailed by Corbyn, also suspended the parliament.

his other mate Nicky Maduro also created his own, more powerful. parliament when he lost his majority in the main one, something for Jezza to aim for!

[TepidT2O]

We are perhaps getting someway off the point

It is a concern that parliament has been somewhat dissolved.

But really it is only of much use for anyone with article 50 looking over us like a sword of Damocles.

And is Corbyn far left or just left? Who fucking cares?

He’s shit.  He voted for article 50.  He is politically inept and made this possible.  That’s not to say it’s his fault, the blame lies with the Tories. But he gave them the free reign to do this.

Without Corbyn Brexit would look very different and that’s irrespective of whether you agree with his politics.

[Red Beret]

Just caught Corbyn on sky. Least he's lucid enough to condemn Boris over suspending parliament. 

Wonder how many MPs realised this was possible but never thought it would actually come to this?