Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"

[Libertine]

The "peoples vote" campaign telling MP's not to vote for a second referendum today. 

Ridiculous.

"not the right time". When would be exactly? It's 2 weeks before the UK crashes out, maybe days before May manages to force MPs to accepting her abysmal deal. What are they waiting for?

[stoa]

Wow. That Scottish guy is really tearing Labour a new arsehole...

[Mutton Geoff]

Every time I think I've got a handle on this I get lost again.  Brexiter MPs voting against Brexit, the government saying it doesn't want no deal and then voting for it and now people who want a 2nd referendum are saying they're not going to vote for 2nd referendum.

Is the house of commons now some sort of Turner Prize winning art installation?

yeah an installation equivalent to the Elephant Shit one

[jepovic]

Am I the only one beginning to have some doubts as to whether the ERG mob actually WANT to Leave? They love sniping from the sidelines and blaming everything on the EU, and claiming things would be better if went back to the days of Empire etc etc.

-snip-

Maybe.
On a similar note I'm convinced that Corbyn is actually quite happy with May's deal.

[TheShanklyGates]

Maybe.
On a similar note I'm convinced that Corbyn is quite happy with May's deal.

Of course he is. He wants Brexit, May's deal is Brexit. It would also split the Tory party likely leading to a general election.

Any talk of a second referendum is just bollocks to try and string along remainers.

[FlashingBlade]

End of a proud 40 year period of considering myself politically aware and affinity to the Labour party.....I'm just a man in a chippy now..haven't got a fucking clue what's going on.

[TheShanklyGates]

Looks like Wollaston is going to push her amendment to a vote.

They're killing it.

Literally no point to tabling it today when we know Corbyn won't support it until it is literally the only possible option.

[ShakaHislop]

More shite from Nandy.

Forty MPs from across the divide pressed for a citizen’s assembly seeking progress through dialogue and the search for common ground. It was greeted with enthusiasm in the country while in Westminster it hit the brick wall that surrounds an institution hostile to reform and change

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/14/second-referendum-could-break-democracy

"greeted with enthusiasm" I doubt most people in the UK have ever heard of a Citizens Assembly, let alone have an opinion on it.

[Kekule]

Trump can fuck off and keep his beak out and all.  As if everything is rosy in his garden, the twat.

It might be a fucking mess, but it's our fucking mess.

[Zeb]

More shite from Nandy.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/14/second-referendum-could-break-democracy

"greeted with enthusiasm" I doubt most people in the UK have ever heard of a Citizens Assembly, let alone have an opinion on it.

Polling I've seen on it was distinctly lukewarm. Everyone's least worst option with a lot of distrust among Leavers that it would be a stitch-up (think it was Populus for the RSA who did the polling). In the meetings I've been to about it, more positive but that's obviously self-selecting towards somebody being at least willing to learn more. Think she does have a point about the divisions widening at the same time as thinking there's not really an answer there which doesn't do that. Clubbing a referendum to death may actually be a kindness at this point if the shift is to revocation vs 'no deal' instead. Not sure that will ever be the option though with a negotiated 'deal' already there waiting to be ratified.

[ShakaHislop]

The Labour Party is supporting a public vote on any deal that passes says @Keir_Starmer

https://twitter.com/ParlyApp/status/1106193610964373505

So fucking sick of Labour putting preconditions to supporting another referendum.

If you want the benefits of a customs union and the single market, you get that with Remain. Soft Brexit is pointless and will receive only a fractionally warmer response in the Brexit-voting "Labour heartlands" than Remaining would, so why waste time you could be spending fighting for a referendum on the deal already on the table pushing for soft Brexit, which you claim you'll put to a referendum anyway?!

[Jimmy Conway]

VOTE PEDRO!

[ShakaHislop]

Interesting speech by Christopher Chope, hardline Brexiter. "Instead of accepting verdict of House she is stubbornly continuing to assert that her deal is a good deal. And now she is holding a pistol to our heads by threatening that we will lose Brexit altogether."

Doesn't sound like the Brexiters are folding too quick.

Oooph. Graham Stringer, Labour: "If the opposition lay down a motion of no-confidence, will he vote for it? That is the logic of his position."

Chope: "Frankly I would seriously consider that issue."

https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1106211493169819649

[CornerFlag]

@DPJHodges
So the People's Vote campaign are now demanding MPs don't hold a vote on a People's Vote because they know they will lose the vote on a People's Vote.

@angelaeagle
Actually Because it takes out the Benn Amendment

Yeah, I'm gonna go with Angela rather than the knob whose mother probably fucking hates him.

[ShakaHislop]

I meant politically rather than as a matter of fact.

If this amendment goes down we'll be constantly hearing how the house has rejected the option of a second referendum whenever it is raised.

I hope it gets pulled.

That's my biggest fear about the Woolaston amendment losing tonight, but then again, May's deal has been rejected twice and Labour's customs union-based 5 point plan rejected at least once yet they're still in play, so I don't think it's the end of the world. It's likely to be a big defeat though as the government are whipping against it and Labour are whipping to abstain, which will look far from good.

I also don't get what's to gain from losing tonight. Everyone knows already that Labour are divided on a 2nd referendum so you're not exposing anything new there. I don't doubt TIG's sincerity in wanting another referendum but what they're doing tonight does feel somewhat self-indulgent.

The key thing for me going forward is if we get "indicative votes" that those who support a 2nd referendum are prepared to vote against soft Brexit and they don't settle for the latter the first opportunity they get. Shut the mouths of the likes of Lucy Powell and Stephen Kinnock who smugly go around talking about how there's a majority for their self-proclaimed "compromise Brexit" If no Brexit deal of any type can get through Parliament, I think it makes a 2nd rIeferendum more likely.

[Red Beret]

Just fucking ridiculous.  The politicians have proven themselves incapable of coming to a consensus on this so common sense dictates that somebody shows some leadership - either cancel A50, or extend and return the decision to the people.

Alas, Parliament follows Everton logic, not common sense.

[Zeb]

@DPJHodges
So the People's Vote campaign are now demanding MPs don't hold a vote on a People's Vote because they know they will lose the vote on a People's Vote.

@angelaeagle
Actually Because it takes out the Benn Amendment

Yeah, I'm gonna go with Angela rather than the knob whose mother probably fucking hates him.

Not sure of sequencing tonight but Benn's amendment passing and then Powell's amendment being tagged onto it, and parliament would rule out a second referendum for all practical purposes.

[Kekule]

Just fucking ridiculous.  The politicians have proven themselves incapable of coming to a consensus on this so common sense dictates that somebody shows some leadership - either cancel A50, or extend and return the decision to the people.

Alas, Parliament follows Everton logic, not common sense.

People of slightly above average intelligence massively overestimating their political abilities and hugely overthinking it.  Their attempts to trap and outflank one another has taken an, admittedly complex, issue and just turned it into one big pulsing ball of puss that could burst at anytime and cover everyone in gunk.

[TheShanklyGates]

Not sure of sequencing tonight but Benn's amendment passing and then Powell's amendment being tagged onto it, and parliament would rule out a second referendum for all practical purposes.

How is Labour whipping on Powell's amendment?

I suspect I know the answer.

[Zeb]

How is Labour whipping on Powell's amendment?

I suspect I know the answer.

Not seen an answer to that. Suspect it won't be whipped at all.

[naka]

Not sure of sequencing tonight but Benn's amendment passing and then Powell's amendment being tagged onto it, and parliament would rule out a second referendum for all practical purposes.

Guys
What are benn and Powell amendments?
Thx

[ShakaHislop]

Not sure of sequencing tonight but Benn's amendment passing and then Powell's amendment being tagged onto it, and parliament would rule out a second referendum for all practical purposes.

Unless the second referendumers play hard ball, and withhold Commons support for any soft Brexit type deal unless it's put to the people in a confirmatory referendum. Keep doing that until June 30th, then the Common Market 2.0 crowd have a choice between leaving with no deal, or begging the EU for even more time for to hold such a referendum

[Zeb]

Guys
What are benn and Powell amendments?
Thx

Benn's amendment = MPs take control of parliament's business from next Wednesday and get to debate what they want to do. Also forces the government to extend Article 50.
Powell's amendment = Extension of Article 50 from Benn's amendment won't go past end of June. (So no referendum possible unless parliament has a big rethink about that time limit inbetween taking control and early April.)

[ShakaHislop]

Guys
What are benn and Powell amendments?
Thx

Line 4, leave out from “Article 50 (3)” to end and add:

“to enable the House of Commons to find a way forward that can command majority
support;

2.  orders accordingly that on Wednesday 20 March –

(a) Standing Order No. 14(1) (which provides that government business shall
have precedence at every sitting save as provided in that order) shall not apply;

(b) precedence shall be given to the motion specified in paragraph 3;

(c)  the Speaker shall interrupt proceedings on any business before the motion
specified in paragraph 3 at 1.30 pm and call a Member to move that motion;

(d) debate on that motion may continue until 7.00 pm at which time the
Speaker shall put the questions necessary to dispose of proceedings on that
motion including the questions on amendments selected by the Speaker which
may then be moved;

(e) any proceedings interrupted or superseded by this order may be resumed
or (as the case may be) entered upon and proceeded with after the moment of
interruption; and

3.  the motion specified in this paragraph is a motion in the name of at least 25
Members, including at least five Members elected to the House as members of at least
five different parties, relating to the Business of the House on a future day or days
in connection with matters relating to the United Kingdom’s withdrawal from the
European Union.

**As an amendment to Hilary Benn’s amendment (i)
Lucy Powell
Seema Malhotra
Robert Halfon
Line 2, at beginning insert “for a period ending on 30 June 2019”.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmagenda/ManuscriptAmdtsv3.pdf

[Zeb]

Unless the second referendumers play hard ball, and withhold Commons support for any soft Brexit type deal unless it's put to the people in a confirmatory referendum. Keep doing that until June 30th, then the Common Market 2.0 crowd have a choice between leaving with no deal, or begging the EU for even more time for to hold such a referendum

Or pass May's 'deal' and hope to soften during negotiations for future relationship. Which is May's bet. Bryant's amendment passing, as you said earlier today, would be pretty huge. (Bryant's amendment = May can't keep taking her 'deal' to Parliament unless she makes significant changes to it)

edit: 30 odd pre-referendum Labour MPs have released a statement on why they're abstaining on voting for a referendum tonight: https://twitter.com/wesstreeting/status/1106240295698644992

Urgh.

[IgorBobbins]

One thing I still can't get my head around is why so many people....literally millions of people....hold such hatred for Europe and the EU.  I can kind of understand why people like Mogg & Hartley-Brewer are so desperate to leave, because they stand to gain financially and will become even richer.  But why does the man in the street have such passionate views?  I bet before the referendum many of them were completely oblivious and ignorant to our relationship with the EU (one could argue they still are).  Why do they now think it's such an evil thing that we MUST leave, and if we don't there will be violence on the streets?  I just don't get it.

[TheShanklyGates]

Or pass May's 'deal' and hope to soften during negotiations for future relationship. Which is May's bet. Bryant's amendment passing, as you said earlier today, would be pretty huge. (Bryant's amendment = May can't keep taking her 'deal' to Parliament unless she makes significant changes to it)

edit: 30 odd pre-referendum Labour MPs have released a statement on why they're abstaining on voting for a referendum tonight: https://twitter.com/wesstreeting/status/1106240295698644992

Urgh.

What an absolute mess. It's embarrassing to see the official 'opposition' sat in their seats doing nothing instead of opposing and it's ridiculous that TIG, SNP etc. have put this to a vote when it was clear it wouldn't win.

Shameful. Absolutely shameful.

[ShakaHislop]

Or pass May's 'deal' and hope to soften during negotiations for future relationship. Which is May's bet. Bryant's amendment passing, as you said earlier today, would be pretty huge. (Bryant's amendment = May can't keep taking her 'deal' to Parliament unless she makes significant changes to it)

edit: 30 odd pre-referendum Labour MPs have released a statement on why they're abstaining on voting for a referendum tonight: https://twitter.com/wesstreeting/status/1106240295698644992

Urgh.

Interesting to see Seema Malhotra on that list, when she's one of the signatories to the Powell amendment.

If the Bryant amendment passes, I wonder if pro-EU MPs could offer to let the PM bring back her deal after all providing she agrees to government support for the Kyle-Wilson amendment?

[BoRed]

edit: 30 odd pre-referendum Labour MPs have released a statement on why they're abstaining on voting for a referendum tonight: https://twitter.com/wesstreeting/status/1106240295698644992

Urgh.

It's a perfectly sensible statement. Not a Corbynite among them either. This was a gimmick from the TIG, they're more likely to put people off than recruit new defectors. It would have made some sense if an election was coming soon, but not now.

[Trada]

The most telling thing is even if Labour had voted for it, the vote would had still been lost.

[Red-Soldier]

I'm amazed the speaker didn't go with this:

G. The Chope amendment

Tabled by Conservative Brexiter and regular malcontent Christopher Chope – and signed only by him – it said Brexit should be delayed for two months “for the specific purpose of replacing the UK negotiating team”.

 

[TheShanklyGates]

The most telling thing is even if Labour had voted for it, the vote would had still been lost.

At least try a little harder to hide your glee.

[ShakaHislop]

The most telling thing is even if Labour had voted for it, the vote would had still been lost.

As was the vote on Labour's Brexit plan, the plan it is still pursuing.

[Djimothy]

Or pass May's 'deal' and hope to soften during negotiations for future relationship. Which is May's bet. Bryant's amendment passing, as you said earlier today, would be pretty huge. (Bryant's amendment = May can't keep taking her 'deal' to Parliament unless she makes significant changes to it)

edit: 30 odd pre-referendum Labour MPs have released a statement on why they're abstaining on voting for a referendum tonight: https://twitter.com/wesstreeting/status/1106240295698644992

Urgh.

The people running the campaign for a second referendum advised them to.

[Trada]

At least try a little harder to hide your glee.

No the vote was totally at the wrong time, I feel sorry for the people that campaigned for the PV only to have it hijacked by the TINGe group at the last moment.

Im totally fine with a people vote if its the right questions, mind you I would want a GE first.

[Zeb]

It's a perfectly sensible statement. Not a Corbynite among them either. This was a gimmick from the TIG, they're more likely to put people off than recruit new defectors. It would have made some sense if an election was coming soon, but not now.

It's not really a gimmick to anyone who isn't obliged to invest in the success of Corbyn's alternative Brexit plan though? Can hardly complain if Nats., TIG, Greens, and Lib Dems are all now turning round and using Labour as a pinata dispensing remain voters when Labour's position for the past two years has been driven by the politics of this.

[TheShanklyGates]

Good to see the Powell amendment to Benn's amendment fail.

Hopefully Benn will now pass.

[BoRed]

It's not really a gimmick to anyone who isn't obliged to invest in the success of Corbyn's alternative Brexit plan though?

How do the People's Vote campaing, the Best for Britain campaign, and Alastair Campbell fit into that?

Out of interest, what kind of referendum would you like to have? If it's straight remain/leave like the last time, we'll get another unicorn campaing from the leave side, and no one will know what to do if they win. It has to be some sort of concrete leave deal v remain, so the softer the deal the better. It might even lead to hard Brexiters not voting at all.

[Zeb]

How do the People's Vote campaing, the Best for Britain campaign, and Alastair Campbell fit into that?

You'd have to ask them. I think they're on twitter.

[ShakaHislop]

No the vote was totally at the wrong time, I feel sorry for the people that campaigned for the PV only to have it hijacked by the TINGe group at the last moment.

Im totally fine with a people vote if its the right questions, mind you I would want a GE first.

Isn't it the wrong time for a GE for Labour. considering where you are in the polls?

Even if you rise in the polls over the course of a campaign, that happened last time yet you still lost.